Should such people be invited or even be allowed in the congregation to begin with?

PJ54

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There have been countless testimonies of people surviving narcissistic abuse to being in dangerous situations with sociopaths & psychopaths. I've read several opinions about dealing with them & some lean towards being inclusive yet cautious, while others say to not even have them in the building. Considering 2nd Timothy chapter 3, all the traits seem to lean towards these mental attributes. What caught my eye was this part:

(2 Timothy 3:5) 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.

It seems that such ones shouldn't even be within our midst & have dealings with us. What do you guys think?
 
There have been countless testimonies of people surviving narcissistic abuse to being in dangerous situations with sociopaths & psychopaths. I've read several opinions about dealing with them & some lean towards being inclusive yet cautious, while others say to not even have them in the building. Considering 2nd Timothy chapter 3, all the traits seem to lean towards these mental attributes. What caught my eye was this part:



It seems that such ones shouldn't even be within our midst & have dealings with us. What do you guys think?
I would say that we need to avoid these people, but the Bible doesn’t say ban them.
 
I would say that we need to avoid these people, but the Bible doesn’t say ban them.
One of the things though is that they aren't capable of feeling remorse nor empathy. No doubt at some point they will commit some serious sins that would form a judicial committee. I can just imagine how things would go if they were in positions of authority in the congregation.
 
One of the things though is that they aren't capable of feeling remorse nor empathy. No doubt at some point they will commit some serious sins that would form a judicial committee. I can just imagine how things would go if they were in positions of authority in the congregation.
Studies suggest that 2% of the population are sociopaths. That would mean 160,000 JWs are sociopaths. I would bet the number is much lower, but far from zero. Until the wheat and the tares are separated, they will be indistinguishable from one another… same goes for the sheep and the goats. I agree that they are a threat, I just don’t see how to ban them.
 
One of the things though is that they aren't capable of feeling remorse nor empathy. No doubt at some point they will commit some serious sins that would form a judicial committee. I can just imagine how things would go if they were in positions of authority in the congregation.
That would explain why the Watchtower would not give the courts the pedophile records - perhaps some of the governing body members were involved.
 
There have been countless testimonies of people surviving narcissistic abuse to being in dangerous situations with sociopaths & psychopaths. I've read several opinions about dealing with them & some lean towards being inclusive yet cautious, while others say to not even have them in the building. Considering 2nd Timothy chapter 3, all the traits seem to lean towards these mental attributes. What caught my eye was this part:



It seems that such ones shouldn't even be within our midst & have dealings with us. What do you guys think?
I would have to leave that in Jehovah's hands but I still would have nothing to do with them.
 
One of the things though is that they aren't capable of feeling remorse nor empathy. No doubt at some point they will commit some serious sins that would form a judicial committee. I can just imagine how things would go if they were in positions of authority in the congregation.
Los narcisistas viven en una constante inseguridad, por eso necesitan controlar y ser el centro de las emociones. Mientras tengan a quien dominar sacian su sed de control pero cuando se les desarma empieza su declive. Lo que pasa es que si son buenos narcisistas encuentran otra persona a la que embaucar para atraparlo en su control. Es muy difícil convivir con ellos y pueden volverse muy peligrosos si les descubres y les plantas cara. Mejor lejos, claro, pero muchas veces viven dentro de la misma familia y eso dificulta la distancia porque además en la red familiar tienen a otros miembros que suelen actuar como cómplices.
La terapia puede ser positiva para ellos pero como en todas las terapias tienen que querer aceptarlo y eso para un narcisista es muy complicado.
A las víctimas de los narcisistas se les recomienda el contacto cero. Esa suele ser la mejor forma de encontrar una vía a la recuperación. Es complicado pero se consigue.
Nada que con la ayuda de Jehová no se pueda conseguir. 😘
 
Los narcisistas viven en una constante inseguridad, por eso necesitan controlar y ser el centro de las emociones. Mientras tengan a quien dominar sacian su sed de control pero cuando se les desarma empieza su declive. Lo que pasa es que si son buenos narcisistas encuentran otra persona a la que embaucar para atraparlo en su control. Es muy difícil convivir con ellos y pueden volverse muy peligrosos si les descubres y les plantas cara. Mejor lejos, claro, pero muchas veces viven dentro de la misma familia y eso dificulta la distancia porque además en la red familiar tienen a otros miembros que suelen actuar como cómplices.
La terapia puede ser positiva para ellos pero o en todas las terapias tienen que querer aceptarlo y eso para un narcisista es muy complicado.
A las víctimas de los narcisistas se les recomienda el contacto cero. Esa suele ser la mejor forma de encontrar una vía a la recuperación. Es complicado pero se consigue.
Nada que con la ayuda de Jehová no se pueda conseguir. 😘
Sobre tu pregunta, no llevan un cartel en la solapa que diga: soy narcisista, así que dudo mucho que se pueda hacer nada al respecto. Si el hombre del desafuero, con cualidades claramente narcisistas se sienta en el lugar santo, imagina el resto.
 
Los narcisistas viven en una constante inseguridad, por eso necesitan controlar y ser el centro de las emociones. Mientras tengan a quien dominar sacian su sed de control pero cuando se les desarma empieza su declive. Lo que pasa es que si son buenos narcisistas encuentran otra persona a la que embaucar para atraparlo en su control. Es muy difícil convivir con ellos y pueden volverse muy peligrosos si les descubres y les plantas cara. Mejor lejos, claro, pero muchas veces viven dentro de la misma familia y eso dificulta la distancia porque además en la red familiar tienen a otros miembros que suelen actuar como cómplices.
La terapia puede ser positiva para ellos pero o en todas las terapias tienen que querer aceptarlo y eso para un narcisista es muy complicado.
A las víctimas de los narcisistas se les recomienda el contacto cero. Esa suele ser la mejor forma de encontrar una vía a la recuperación. Es complicado pero se consigue.
Nada que con la ayuda de Jehová no se pueda conseguir. 😘
Spanish to English
Narcissists live in constant insecurity, which is why they need to control and be the center of emotions. As long as they have someone to dominate, they satisfy their thirst for control, but when they are disarmed, their decline begins. The thing is, if they are skilled narcissists, they find another person to deceive and trap under their control. It's very difficult to live with them, and they can become very dangerous if you discover them and confront them. It's best to stay far away, of course, but often they live within the same family, which makes distance difficult because they also have other family members who often act as accomplices. Therapy can be positive for them, but in all therapies, they have to be willing to accept it, and that's very difficult for a narcissist. Victims of narcissists are advised to go no contact. That's usually the best way to find a path to recovery. It's complicated, but it can be done. Nothing that can't be achieved with God's help.
 
Sobre tu pregunta, no llevan un cartel en la solapa que diga: soy narcisista, así que dudo mucho que se pueda hacer nada al respecto. Si el hombre del desafuero, con cualidades claramente narcisistas se sienta en el lugar santo, imagina el resto.
Spanish to English
Regarding your question, they don't wear a sign on their lapel that says, "I'm a narcissist," so I highly doubt anything can be done about it. If the man who committed this outrage, with clearly narcissistic traits, sits in the hallowed halls, imagine the rest.
 
Sobre tu pregunta, no llevan un cartel en la solapa que diga: soy narcisista, así que dudo mucho que se pueda hacer nada al respecto. Si el hombre del desafuero, con cualidades claramente narcisistas se sienta en el lugar santo, imagina el resto.
 
There have been countless testimonies of people surviving narcissistic abuse to being in dangerous situations with sociopaths & psychopaths. I've read several opinions about dealing with them & some lean towards being inclusive yet cautious, while others say to not even have them in the building. Considering 2nd Timothy chapter 3, all the traits seem to lean towards these mental attributes. What caught my eye was this part:



It seems that such ones shouldn't even be within our midst & have dealings with us. What do you guys think?
The mental health problems you raise are products of our society. Condemn them, and you condemn victims. This is a problem with cause and effect and each case needs to be treated as they present. These are behaviours anyway, not a mental illness in the majority of situations and psychopaths are a whole different subject matter anyway concerning developmental issues.

If you wish an answer to your question, you must first discover the root cause of the behaviour. Within this process you will have to bridge the gap that society makes in definition. For example. At age sixteen in Britain, an abused child that learns the values of his/her abuser through abuse, normalising those behaviours in an effort to cope with the madness they cause, become the perpetrator not the victim, upon the stroke of midnight on their sixteenth birthday. They then have to deal with dismantling their entire psyche. It cannot be done satisfactorily. It murders the soul.

This also forms part of the current debate of “stay or go” within watchtower in that people are unable to see clearly because their psyche is formed by behaviours that are not necessarily their own, but have to be absorbed in order for the conscience to function. This is why clarity will not be available in that thread. No matter - so long as it’s recognised. And that is the issue.

The solution with behavioural disabilities is in understanding, broadness or mind, humility on one’s own account and love and appreciation for the other. If one does not have insight into cause and effect and shuns, then we have simply repeated the harshness of society (and watchtower). Shunning achieves nothing in real terms other than force another to examine their values. If they have the insight to do that, for the better then they may change, but if they require the mental tools with which to do so, who will equip them with those tools? Value the person, not their presentation. Come to understand.

The world is full of such outcasts - products of our society in which everyone judges the outcome but is blind to the causal root. There is no point at all in being ‘inclusive’ if one submits to the behaviour. And the considerations to inclusivity require insight on our behalf to effect change. It is recumbent then upon others to respond appropriately and with insight, understanding and with insightful tolerance. Otherwise we simply become part of the problem. This behaviour of shunning forms one of the many euphemisms used to describe “love” and why so many see it as shallow and simply being “kind” to shun a person when in fact it is ignoring the value of such a one, their worth and potential. Love encompasses justice, perseverance, tolerance, long-suffering and patience, as well as shunning. That is why it forms the basis of all the attributes of Jehovah including the consideration of our responses to others.
 
One of the things though is that they aren't capable of feeling remorse nor empathy. No doubt at some point they will commit some serious sins that would form a judicial committee. I can just imagine how things would go if they were in positions of authority in the congregation.
They are already on those positions. I think I dealt with an elder like that many years ago. :! :(
 
There have been countless testimonies of people surviving narcissistic abuse to being in dangerous situations with sociopaths & psychopaths. I've read several opinions about dealing with them & some lean towards being inclusive yet cautious, while others say to not even have them in the building. Considering 2nd Timothy chapter 3, all the traits seem to lean towards these mental attributes. What caught my eye was this part:



It seems that such ones shouldn't even be within our midst & have dealings with us. What do you guys think?
And the most interesting is that the apostle did not make a distinction between brothers and the people of the world. Just "turn away from them" no matter who they are or apparently are.
 
One of the things though is that they aren't capable of feeling remorse nor empathy. No doubt at some point they will commit some serious sins that would form a judicial committee. I can just imagine how things would go if they were in positions of authority in the congregation.
That is not necessarily true PJ. One cannot say that a person is ‘incapable’ of remorse or empathy, as these facets of behaviour can be learnt, emulated and applied. A whole construct for living successfully can be built around understanding of what is required to fulfil an emotional need. Whether this can be done to deceive or to please in honesty or falsehood is also a possibility to consider. If one observes the identity of some serial killers, their case is often marked by how approachable and likeable these people can be. “Projection” of characteristics is an art form for many, of whom their motivation is pure and well founded upon observation though not deeply sensed, or in some cases, not felt at all, but simply wondered at with a degree of jealousy for those who have the full range or emotions at their fingertips! That these emotions are in varying degrees within us is frequently reflected when called upon to comfort a terminally ill person. Some simply want a hand to hold, but who can give it with the emotion to match? That is not spoken but felt from deep within and given with a palpable sense of love and depth of understanding. The power of projection in understanding love is also reflected in scripture that states that without it, we have “nothing at all”. Thus capability is all about learning in all but a few cases.
 
They are already on those positions. I think I dealt with an elder like that many years ago. :! :(
You're right Luis, there were very many in the congregations in my previous town and I had many personal experiences with them, crazy experiences. One such occasion was when I dobbed myself in to an elder because I had smoked a few cigarettes due to my ex husband's unrelenting, dominating control over me, but I had also stopped, I only did it for 3 days. They formed a judicial committee and my punishment was that I wasn't allowed to answer up at the meetings anymore, and I would be restricted in other things too, they didn't say for how long. After 6 months I approached one of the 3 elders and quietly asked how much longer would it be before I was free from the restrictions and he laughed at me and said they'll let me know when THEY thought I was ready. Another 3 months passed by and I quietly approached one of the other 3 elders and asked the same question and he folded his arms, looked me in the eyes and said "who do you think you are, coming to ME asking about your restrictions ? WE will come to YOU when WE think you're ready" I waited another 3 months and then I spoke to the PO of the congregation and told him my story and he told me to ignore those 3 elders and that if I wanted to answer up I could and that he'd make sure I wasn't restricted on anything. I could write a book on all the crazy stuff that happened to me and my kids in those crazy congregations.. No way on God's earth were most of those elders appointed by God's holy spirit, I'll never, ever believe that saying, no matter how many times they write it in the Watchtower or say it on the TV..
 
One of the things though is that they aren't capable of feeling remorse nor empathy. No doubt at some point they will commit some serious sins that would form a judicial committee. I can just imagine how things would go if they were in positions of authority in the congregation.
But they ARE in positions of authority, and there's many..
 
You're right Luis, there were very many in the congregations in my previous town and I had many personal experiences with them, crazy experiences. One such occasion was when I dobbed myself in to an elder because I had smoked a few cigarettes due to my ex husband's unrelenting, dominating control over me, but I had also stopped, I only did it for 3 days. They formed a judicial committee and my punishment was that I wasn't allowed to answer up at the meetings anymore, and I would be restricted in other things too, they didn't say for how long. After 6 months I approached one of the 3 elders and quietly asked how much longer would it be before I was free from the restrictions and he laughed at me and said they'll let me know when THEY thought I was ready. Another 3 months passed by and I quietly approached one of the other 3 elders and asked the same question and he folded his arms, looked me in the eyes and said "who do you think you are, coming to ME asking about your restrictions ? WE will come to YOU when WE think you're ready" I waited another 3 months and then I spoke to the PO of the congregation and told him my story and he told me to ignore those 3 elders and that if I wanted to answer up I could and that he'd make sure I wasn't restricted on anything. I could write a book on all the crazy stuff that happened to me and my kids in those crazy congregations.. No way on God's earth were most of those elders appointed by God's holy spirit, I'll never, ever believe that saying, no matter how many times they write it in the Watchtower or say it on the TV..

There's nothing worse than dealing with a self-righteous Power Trip elders who in reality are little insecure men no doubt due to their own shortcomings and the sad part of it is that it trickles down from the top of the Watchtower pyramid, I'm afraid there's not much you can really do about it until the kingdom comes and Jesus set them straight.
 
There have been countless testimonies of people surviving narcissistic abuse to being in dangerous situations with sociopaths & psychopaths. I've read several opinions about dealing with them & some lean towards being inclusive yet cautious, while others say to not even have them in the building. Considering 2nd Timothy chapter 3, all the traits seem to lean towards these mental attributes. What caught my eye was this part:



It seems that such ones shouldn't even be within our midst & have dealings with us. What do you guys think?
In the scriptures we have examples where there were wrong doers. In the Jewish system, Jesus basically said to ignore persistent wrong doers who refuse to accept correction. And, Jesus gave us an example of how to deal with being wronged in the congregation, to communicate the issue with the goal of repairing the relationship. But sometimes that isn’t possible and the scriptures also give us direction on how to handle those situations but at the same time, the goal is to promote Jehovah and his word and in thinking about myself, sometimes it’s hurt feelings that prevent us from dealing appropriately with the situation but we do need to be discerning as to who is just not willing to make peace and there are some who insist in creating problems and perhaps they don’t have the same motivation.

2 Thessalonians 3

“Finally, brothers, carry on prayer for us, that the word of Jehovah may keep spreading rapidly and being glorified, just as it is with you, and that we may be rescued from harmful and wicked men, for faith is not a possession of all people. But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the wicked one. Moreover, we have confidence in the Lord regarding you, that you are carrying out and will go on carrying out our instructions. May the Lord continue to guide your hearts successfully to the love of God and to the endurance for the Christ. Now we are giving you instructions, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother who is walking disorderly and not according to the tradition that you received from us. For you yourselves know how you should imitate us, because we did not behave in a disorderly way among you, nor did we eat anyone’s food free. On the contrary, by labor and toil we were working night and day so as not to impose an expensive burden on any one of you. Not that we do not have authority, but we wanted to offer ourselves as an example for you to imitate. In fact, when we were with you, we used to give you this order: “If anyone does not want to work, neither let him eat.” For we hear that some are walking disorderly among you, not working at all, but meddling with what does not concern them. To such people we give the order and exhortation in the Lord Jesus Christ that they should work quietly and eat food they themselves earn. For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing good. But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked and stop associating with him, so that he may become ashamed. And yet do not consider him an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother. Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace constantly in every way. May the Lord be with all of you. Here is my greeting, Paul’s, in my own hand, which is a sign in every letter; this is the way I write. The undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you.”
 
But they ARE in positions of authority, and there's many..
Very few would reflect the true diagnosis of the various illnesses here mentioned. The problem with appointments within watchtower is that give people authority without understanding. If one looks at the attributes of the Spirit as displayed by Jehovah and Christ, we see responses that meet all measures within the balance of shall we say, “loving justice” as one might expect from a parent that loves and understands their child. But watchtower does not require that. Far from it. It requires of the appointed person to carry out their version of what is considered truth. Think how disfellowshipping “issues” would pan out if dealt with by the Spirit, in truth and understanding of justice, tempered with love, fairness, equality, insight, depth of understanding and free from personal bigotry. In fact, bigotry in the true sense of the word, is what is wrong with the governance issues of watchtower to a very great extent. It’s not down to a mental illness. If it was, there would be an excuse. But as it is born of ignorance, and the responsibility to weild such gratuitous dominance over another given by those in power, there is no excuse for their mistreatment of the flock.
 

@ all of us.​

John13

34 I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you,+ you also love one another.+ 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”+

AI Overview tidbits .

The phrase is a quote from Jesus in the Bible, found in
John 13:35: "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another". It is a command to his followers that their genuine, Christ-like love for each other would be the defining characteristic of their faith and the way others would recognize them as his disciples. This love is meant to be a distinguishing mark, a selfless love that would set them apart from the world.
  • The new commandment: The quote is linked to Jesus's new commandment, also found in John 13:34, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another".
  • Distinguishing sign: The command emphasizes that this love for one another is the ultimate identifier of his followers, even more so than their knowledge, actions, or any other characteristic.
  • The mark of true discipleship: The love they show for each other is a testament to their faith and a way for the world to see the example of Christ's own love.
  • What this love looks like: The love is described as unselfish, patient, kind, and enduring, and it is meant to be expressed to all believers, not just a select few. It's about a close-knit, worldwide brotherhood of believers.
 
One of the things though is that they aren't capable of feeling remorse nor empathy. No doubt at some point they will commit some serious sins that would form a judicial committee. I can just imagine how things would go if they were in positions of authority in the congregation.
I have found that there are many narcissists in WT organization, including the GB and congregation elders.
Jesus said: “A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly instructed will be like his teacher.” Luke 6:40 (NWT)

2001 translation makes this even more clear saying >>>
40‘“A disciple isn’t over his teacher,
But those who learn [from their teachers]
Will then become like their teachers.“

Followers of the GB / congregation elders have been ‘trained’ to be narcissists.
Their fruitage certainly bears this out.

*Side note: I believe in 2 Timothy chapter 3 the apostle Paul was mainly referring to the Christian congregation.
 
I have found that there are many narcissists in WT organization, including the GB and congregation elders.
Jesus said: “A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly instructed will be like his teacher.” Luke 6:40 (NWT)

2001 translation makes this even more clear saying >>>
40‘“A disciple isn’t over his teacher,
But those who learn [from their teachers]
Will then become like their teachers.“

Followers of the GB / congregation elders have been ‘trained’ to be narcissists.
Their fruitage certainly bears this out.

*Side note: I believe in 2 Timothy chapter 3 the apostle Paul was mainly referring to the Christian congregation.
Me too Lady B, I was actually taught that by many witnesses over the years, they said everything in the Bible was written for those inside the congregation, not for those outside.. makes sense..
 
Me too Lady B, I was actually taught that by many witnesses over the years, they said everything in the Bible was written for those inside the congregation, not for those outside.. makes sense..
If it was the case that everything in the Bible was written for those inside the congregation, then how would the scriptures appeal to and draw people on the outside to come into the congregation to learn more! ?? I think you have been caught out by a watchtowerism! Stand in the corner for 30 minutes! ☹️
 
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