The Greatest Crime in Human History.

kirmmy

Well-known member
She was decieved into thinking she would be "like God knowing good and bad." I'm not saying she didn't eat from the tree, what I am saying is it was the act of disobedience that resulted in the consequence of her action and not the tree imparting something.
Would she have been prohibited from the tree forever? It doesn't seem likely or why would God put it within reach. A simple test but maybe much more. It could have been a situation that WHEN Adam and Eve reached the appropriate maturity, Jehovah would have deemed them ready to partake of the tree. Once their minds were mature and completely aligned with their father they may have been granted access as they could handle the responsibility involved. When you consider the incredible things God has done for mankind it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility. At Adam's time who could have imagined the "new creation" God was bringing forward. And gifting certain sinful humans with immortality and kingship?! That's an incredible and surprising development by our Creator. It's hard to imagine sometimes the things God has done for his creation and it's impossible to know of the great things he has planned for the future for those that love him.

Or maybe I've fallen into a mental fugue again. :) I hate when that happens...
 

Nomex

Well-known member
it would and always is, be an honourable defeat at your hands, rather like the Japanese suicide ritual, but you are going to have to come up with a water-tight scripture or fact before I throw myself on my sword.
You raise some excellent arguments I have to admit. How was it that Jesus was still "Jesus" if in fact he was "half Mary's descendant." It seems that could not be true. Just one of those mysteries we will not know or understand until the new system, but it goes to show how not boring life will be, when there will be infinite things to learn! But just because I concede you made some good arguments doesn't mean I am admitting any kind of defeat. "It is but a scratch!" HAHA!
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
You raise some excellent arguments I have to admit. How was it that Jesus was still "Jesus" if in fact he was "half Mary's descendant." It seems that could not be true. Just one of those mysteries we will not know or understand until the new system, but it goes to show how not boring life will be, when there will be infinite things to learn! But just because I concede you made some good arguments doesn't mean I am admitting any kind of defeat. "It is but a scratch!" HAHA!
Any point made is a small victory, not over another, but in broadening my perspective in discussion. I really enjoy plumbing depths of spirituality with you as you are an excellent foil for thinking outside the box and it makes me think more deeply into the reasoning in and of the scriptures - and that in itself is an extraordinary comfort to the soul in these days. Few construct humble pie for the soul as you do. Would that all learning was as thought provoking.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Ok I see what your saying now. You had lost me at "metaphor." I just kinda assumed everyone understood that it was the act of disobedience. But what do you suppose caused them to suddenly realize they were naked? Or was Adam just trying to make some excuse for hiding from Jehovah? As if he could. Didn't Adam know that God knows all, sees all? But back to the tree of life---if it wasn't literal, why the cherubs and flaming blade of a sword to guard the way to it?
I have a tendency to take the words of scripture for what they say unless I see obvious symbolism.
Sound advice Patricia. I leave the symbolism (prophesy) to others, for I have no insight into it. It is wonderful when others can apply sound reasoning to it and it’s fruitage is spiritual. It widens the scope of faith to include the reasoning of Jehovah in its true aspects of wisdom. As to nakedness re: Adam and Eve, I have always assumed innocence in nakedness is an attribute of perfection. Jehovah created the world to sit in an ambient atmosphere comfortable in all aspects necessary to our needs. It seems that the clerics of old assumed sex as is the basis of all problems and that only served to exacerbate the need for what we now term as modesty. Yet there are still isolated places on earth where people are naked and have no shame in it. Mostly in ambient climbs but nonetheless, see no need for clothes mentally or physically. Neither does any animal. Females seem intent on getting back to that state if beach-wear is anything to go by - that less is more is de rigueur for women from volley ball to sunbathing, but if everyone were naked it would all be very mundane - natural even. It seems to me then, that originally there was no need for clothing and probably no need for habitat either, so why encumber life with such superfluous needs? Thus the advent of nakedness was brought about perhaps, by man’s decision to choose for himself, demonstrated by their taking of the tree of knowledge. Perhaps if for the sake of illustration, we renamed the tree, the Tree of Self Awareness it might illustrate the thought more clearly. At that point then, our minds were made self aware where previously, in perfection, there was no need or requirement to be self aware. With that awareness came a lot more issues of awareness too in the arena of self administration of all necessities. That was then, the price of rebellion.
In the animal kingdom, there has never been that need. They have never had to direct their own ways, it has forever been provided for them, just as it was for us. Therefore, it is possible to have a higher intellect, and still not feel a need for certain accoutrements in life that are a necessity that is self imposed in our case. Will we return to such? It will take a thousand years for me to get “beach body perfect” as they say.
 

Patricia

Well-known member
Sound advice Patricia. I leave the symbolism (prophesy) to others, for I have no insight into it. It is wonderful when others can apply sound reasoning to it and it’s fruitage is spiritual. It widens the scope of faith to include the reasoning of Jehovah in its true aspects of wisdom. As to nakedness re: Adam and Eve, I have always assumed innocence in nakedness is an attribute of perfection. Jehovah created the world to sit in an ambient atmosphere comfortable in all aspects necessary to our needs. It seems that the clerics of old assumed sex as is the basis of all problems and that only served to exacerbate the need for what we now term as modesty. Yet there are still isolated places on earth where people are naked and have no shame in it. Mostly in ambient climbs but nonetheless, see no need for clothes mentally or physically. Neither does any animal. Females seem intent on getting back to that state if beach-wear is anything to go by - that less is more is de rigueur for women from volley ball to sunbathing, but if everyone were naked it would all be very mundane - natural even. It seems to me then, that originally there was no need for clothing and probably no need for habitat either, so why encumber life with such superfluous needs? Thus the advent of nakedness was brought about perhaps, by man’s decision to choose for himself, demonstrated by their taking of the tree of knowledge. Perhaps if for the sake of illustration, we renamed the tree, the Tree of Self Awareness it might illustrate the thought more clearly. At that point then, our minds were made self aware where previously, in perfection, there was no need or requirement to be self aware. With that awareness came a lot more issues of awareness too in the arena of self administration of all necessities. That was then, the price of rebellion.
In the animal kingdom, there has never been that need. They have never had to direct their own ways, it has forever been provided for them, just as it was for us. Therefore, it is possible to have a higher intellect, and still not feel a need for certain accoutrements in life that are a necessity that is self imposed in our case. Will we return to such? It will take a thousand years for me to get “beach body perfect” as they say.
Thanks BTD. "The tree of self awareness", I never thought of it in those terms. But yes, we are told that- it doesn't belong to man even to direct his steps- can't comprehend what that would be like.
If we are to go back to that, the temps around here will have to change, global warming anyone? Lol.
And in my current state of mind, I don't want to see even perfect beach bodies unclothed. 🙈 Can't imagine.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Thanks BTD. "The tree of self awareness", I never thought of it in those terms. But yes, we are told that- it doesn't belong to man even to direct his steps- can't comprehend what that would be like.
If we are to go back to that, the temps around here will have to change, global warming anyone? Lol.
And in my current state of mind, I don't want to see even perfect beach bodies unclothed. 🙈 Can't imagine.
My opinion would be that as Jehovah created the earth within and without of water then why would He not reinstate that condition? Not only would the thermosphere protect the world from harmful radiation (which may or may not be the signature of a much shorter life span post flood), but would also provide the ambient temperatures extant in the garden of Eden and world wide, as reflected in the structures we see in the fossil fields of the earths crust. The land masses that would be exposed or recouped from beneath shallow seas such as the southern North Sea and the Mediterranean and other such places would provide not just living space but a rich fauna and flora necessary for generating renewal. The bible speaks of the “former things” not being brought to mind and though it is only speculation on my part, I felt that such may even stretch to some areas of mental attitudes and balances that we now take for granted, such as unreasonable fears and self isolation and also perhaps the sense of what we today call normal. I hope to God that what we have here and now is not normalcy. The body and human mind seem to me to be far more capable, purposeful and intellectual in reasoning than we currently take as the norm. At present we prepare for death when we grow out of childhood. That is rather limiting our choices to put it mildly. With eternity in view, choice, skills, the senses, love, etc will develop into a maturity that at present, we cannot even dream of.
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
My opinion would be that as Jehovah created the earth within and without of water then why would He not reinstate that condition? Not only would the thermosphere protect the world from harmful radiation (which may or may not be the signature of a much shorter life span post flood), but would also provide the ambient temperatures extant in the garden of Eden and world wide, as reflected in the structures we see in the fossil fields of the earths crust. The land masses that would be exposed or recouped from beneath shallow seas such as the southern North Sea and the Mediterranean and other such places would provide not just living space but a rich fauna and flora necessary for generating renewal. The bible speaks of the “former things” not being brought to mind and though it is only speculation on my part, I felt that such may even stretch to some areas of mental attitudes and balances that we now take for granted, such as unreasonable fears and self isolation and also perhaps the sense of what we today call normal. I hope to God that what we have here and now is not normalcy. The body and human mind seem to me to be far more capable, purposeful and intellectual in reasoning than we currently take as the norm. At present we prepare for death when we grow out of childhood. That is rather limiting our choices to put it mildly. With eternity in view, choice, skills, the senses, love, etc will develop into a maturity that at present, we cannot even dream of.
What about this B: Ezekiel 39:8-10 talking of life after Christ's return and establishing Zion there will be fires lit for 7years using the left over weapons. Now they have had portable nuclear generators since 1959. With all the unused nuclear devices it is starting to make sense what? Now I did say unused ones. I feel Egypt and Tyre will receive a column or two of smoke!? Joel 2:30-31 Ezekiel 30:18
 
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MickHewitt

Well-known member
What about this B: Ezekiel 39:8-10 talking of life after Christ's return and establishing Zion there will be fires lit for 7years using the left over weapons. Now they have had portable nuclear generators since 1959. With all the unused nuclear devices it is starting to make sense what? Now I did say unused ones. I feel Egypt and Tyre will receive a column or two of smoke!? Joel 2:30-31 Ezekiel 30:18
Ezekiel 31:3 "This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: By means of an assembly of many nations I will cast my net over you (Egypt) and they will haul you up in my dragnet"....Russia, China, Iran, Brazil, S Africa, India and many more days ago agreed and have implemented an alternative to the dollar system. No wonder the media attention on the funeral!
 

BagdadBill

Well-known member
My opinion would be that as Jehovah created the earth within and without of water then why would He not reinstate that condition? Not only would the thermosphere protect the world from harmful radiation (which may or may not be the signature of a much shorter life span post flood), but would also provide the ambient temperatures extant in the garden of Eden and world wide, as reflected in the structures we see in the fossil fields of the earths crust. The land masses that would be exposed or recouped from beneath shallow seas such as the southern North Sea and the Mediterranean and other such places would provide not just living space but a rich fauna and flora necessary for generating renewal. The bible speaks of the “former things” not being brought to mind and though it is only speculation on my part, I felt that such may even stretch to some areas of mental attitudes and balances that we now take for granted, such as unreasonable fears and self isolation and also perhaps the sense of what we today call normal. I hope to God that what we have here and now is not normalcy. The body and human mind seem to me to be far more capable, purposeful and intellectual in reasoning than we currently take as the norm. At present we prepare for death when we grow out of childhood. That is rather limiting our choices to put it mildly. With eternity in view, choice, skills, the senses, love, etc will develop into a maturity that at present, we cannot even dream of.
Genesis 8:22. I had asked this question early on.
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
Genesis 8:22. I had asked this question early on.
Jah will do that restore the earth but before Armageddon post trib read what goes on in Ezekiel we can only speculate but it will not be paradise straight away when Christ arrives. I take it that's the issue here....if not take no notice.. Even after Armageddon you will be picking bones up for along time before you can call it paradise.......oooooh! I'm on me soap box today...
 
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MickHewitt

Well-known member
Jah will do that restore the earth but before Armageddon post trib read what goes on in Ezekiel we can only speculate but it will not be paradise straight away when Christ arrives. I take it that's the issue here....if not take no notice.. Even after Armageddon you will be picking bones up for along time before you can call it paradise.......oooooh! I'm on me soap box today...
If I could just take one more advantage: I think that with just one atom in 300 of our atmosphere being carbon when the Methane Hydrate (concentrated carbon) stored under the ice in billions of tons that's melting is released we will see something like a constant climate? I remember a brother years back saying: One day we will colonise the universe how we will move around will be like a pip is squeezed from a lemon...
Isn't it wonderful: The future is ours if we want it and possible because of Christ! And I bet in what ever way our imaginations have inspired us Christ will do better!?
 
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MickHewitt

Well-known member
Jah will do that restore the earth but before Armageddon post trib read what goes on in Ezekiel we can only speculate but it will not be paradise straight away when Christ arrives. I take it that's the issue here....if not take no notice.. Even after Armageddon you will be picking bones up for along time before you can call it paradise.......oooooh! I'm on me soap box today...
BTW: All this pageantry was dreamt up when Victoria died. Before, after a regent's death focus went straight to next wearer of crown. In this case it's best left focus on his mum. Just another 11 days of mourning. I hate to think what they are up to behind the scene?
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
BTW: All this pageantry was dreamt up when Victoria died. Before, after a regent's death focus went straight to next wearer of crown. In this case it's best left focus on his mum. Just another 11 days of mourning. I hate to think what they are up to behind the scene?
They have adulterated the history taught in our classrooms today: I was led to believe WW1 was ignited by the assasination of Arch Duke Ferdinand.....This article...The Daily Mail of December 14, 1909 even publishing an editorial reading: “the king [Edward VII] and his councillors have strained every nerve to establish Ententes with Russia and with Italy; and have formed an Entente with France, and as well with Japan. Why? To isolate Germany.[5]”shows guess who behind it all? Yes the British especially Edward VII. Looks like the theme of those wearing this crown https://matthewehret.substack.com/p/the-league-of-nations-and-imperial-682
 
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Nomex

Well-known member
Any point made is a small victory, not over another, but in broadening my perspective in discussion. I really enjoy plumbing depths of spirituality with you as you are an excellent foil for thinking outside the box and it makes me think more deeply into the reasoning in and of the scriptures - and that in itself is an extraordinary comfort to the soul in these days. Few construct humble pie for the soul as you do. Would that all learning was as thought provoking.
I really enjoy these debates too. Our mind is like a muscle that is strengthened from use. (Although it does not seem to help my spelling on a keyboard...lol). Any way, I told @Medi-tator this a little while back, I don't hold too many particular beliefs too dogmatically. My attitude is we really just don't know, about so much, and even the "experts" in so many areas are so woefully wrong. Far be it for me to claim your well articulated and well argued thoughts on these subjects we have discussed, are any less thought out and articulated than my own. I tend to think that the truth is some where in between what we think to be true, what we believe and things we cannot possibly grasp in our limited and imperfect state. Make no mistake physical imperfection is indeed part of what we suffer from, to be sure, but that might be in a very large part because of what the spiritual imperfection has done to our physical body's. In any case, hey we have to have fun in this system, laugh at each other and be able to laugh together.

Thanks for the kinds words though brother.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
What about this B: Ezekiel 39:8-10 talking of life after Christ's return and establishing Zion there will be fires lit for 7years using the left over weapons. Now they have had portable nuclear generators since 1959. With all the unused nuclear devices it is starting to make sense what? Now I did say unused ones. I feel Egypt and Tyre will receive a column or two of smoke!? Joel 2:30-31 Ezekiel 30:18
I’m not sure that will be allowed Mick. To much CO2 in the atmosphere from the smoke. I suppose we could trade our CO2 credits to the brothers in India or China. I’ll ask the GB to “channel” your suggestion back upstairs and see what Jehovah thinks about it all. We don’t want to make any decisions for ourselves and spoil the “unity” do we?
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
I’m not sure that will be allowed Mick. To much CO2 in the atmosphere from the smoke. I suppose we could trade our CO2 credits to the brothers in India or China. I’ll ask the GB to “channel” your suggestion back upstairs and see what Jehovah thinks about it all. We don’t want to make any decisions for ourselves and spoil the “unity” do we?
I'm best leaving it to your diplomacy B. I cause incidents with myself let alone the neighbors.
 
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