The Hard Truth

[TheJehuChariot]

If you personally came to the understanding, that predominantly all Inspired Scripture, particularly Jesus words within the gospel and all subsequent books written thereafter by Paul, Peter, James, John, etc etc..... are directed specifically for the anointed whom have a heavenly reward and whom which make up the bride of Christ....... , and you learned the Scriptures are technically not directed at those outside of the bride class whom have the earthly hope...... would you still be loyal to The Father and His Son.....and obey?

If you learned that when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 he was referring to & speaking about those whom have a heavenly hope in that they will inherit a kingdom of which they rule within and shall reside with The Holy One..... would you still live righteously and obey?

If you learned that when Jesus said "No one can come to the Father unless He first draws him", he was referring to the anointed little flock class, would you of the earthly hope still obey even though you felt seemingly left out of the group?

Does it make sense that those whom claim to have hope and subsequent desire to live in the personal presence of the Ancient of Days, only to be given the cloth of infinite immortality alongside Jesus, His only begotten.... that the standard and bar set for them here as a remnant here on earth would be much higher and stringent then for the mere other sheep whom are to remain in flesh clothed with finite mortality? Would it seem fair that the latter class and great crowd of people of other sheep are set to the same standard of expectation when their reward is far less in equivalence?

I ask this in correlation with @Tink recent question on baptism. Truly, IF baptism is for the purpose of each and every humans salvation at Armageddon, then truly, the majority of all humanity are doomed. That would include the countless of individuals within the JW organization who are yet to be baptized. I argue it would be impossible for every human on earth seeking salvation during the hour of test will actually be baptized with water. But the anointed will have needed to for sure , in order to be called and saved.

It would seem pretty obvious the purpose of the Watchtowers recent articles on the deliberate focus and promotion of baptism. The more baptized, the greater the publisher count. The greater the publisher count, the more it appears to have God's blessing. It is obvious that the WT via its textbook answer, views baptism as quintessential in order to have salvation at Armageddon. That is why an imbecellic elder in Tinks congregation recently told her husband if he wanted to join the team and get off the side lines, he needed to get baptized in the JW organization. Yet her husband felt stumbled slightly because he views himself as a baptized Christian who has believed in Christ since 18 yrs old. But lets be honest, IF Tinks husband never gets baptized within the JW organization, he would never truly be viewed as one nor would he ever be able to reach out to become an elder. He would always be on the sidelines. Ahhh, the carrots held from a distance.

I truly believe the JW Organization has blown out of proportion the significance of the majority of its publishers that identify as the other sheep with an earthly hope. Does Jehovah love these ones and view them as His? Surely He does. But for now, His interaction with them is limited along with His interest. I would argue that Jehovah is primarily focused on the loyalty of the anointed ones chosen and called. Because without them, there is no bride. If there is no bride, there is no kingdom. In that scenario, the other sheep mean nothing, they are all doomed to death. First is first. The anointed class, the bride of Christ, are all that "technically matter", until the marriage takes place. And just as the Israelite nation gave birth to Christ, so the JW organization can give birth to the anointed, the 2 elders, the Elijah class. But they are the main feature to God, everything revolves around them. Everyone else, are just bystanders, eyewitnesses YET capable of due diligently imitating the anointed, holding onto their skirt the spiritual Jew, curtailing their life to be pleasing to the Father, obeying Him. Surely He adores such.

But I often wonder how many would if they understood this situation.

Another consideration, How can Tinks baptism at the age of 12 years old gain her salvation when she had no concept of "repenting from sins" and truly understood what it means to "carry Christs torture stake"?. How can any child be baptized with substance in the eyes of God if not based merely on emotion and lacks heartfelt transformation? I judge and condemn myself as well having been baptized at the innocent age of 12. Though my emotions ran deep for the God I thought I knew, I truly didnt know Him fully nor understood the beauty of His Son and his life, his sacrificed love and how such truly can wash away past sins. Not fully understanding such helped foment my life's repetitive sin and life of guilt. Now as an adult, I am more capable of appreciating what Baptism can symbolize. Is that all baptism truly means to God, is to get baptized so as to publicly identify with the JW organization? The organization destined to be run into the ground forced to chirp from the dust?

Were children of the 1st century Christians baptized as children? Were they then automatically rewarded with the heavenly hope? Did each one intimately know and love the Father? Or Did they have to live a life that grew in knowledge and that which manifested itself into deep expression of love to Jehovah the Father and His son Jesus? Did baptism back then for all, mean you were holding a only a heavenly hope, or did some understand the earthly hope?

When exactly did the doors open for those with an earthly hope? Was it as Watchtower says in the early 1900's? If so, has baptism been the mark for all? Where does the secretary ink horn of Ezekiel come into play? Does any of it ever really pertain to those with the earthly hope.... or does it all truly pertain to those with the heavenly hope.... and the rest are just bystanders? If baptism is the key to salvation, then how does the hour of test and the mark of the beast fit in and relate?

In conclusion, though my thoughts here are multiple... I would argue that the majority of those deemed to be righteous by The Judge on Judgement Day to be rewarded with life on earth, will have never had the opportunity or right moment to get baptized.

However those with a heavenly hope who dare to dream of being in the Most Holy's presence, will most certainly have need to be baptized in the name of Jesus, so as to reflect their desire to unite in Christs kingdom and wear the veil of the bride.

I'd argue the greater crowd hope has much more leeway, tolerance, margin for error.....versus the smaller group that which is under finer scrutiny, stricter moral obligation, bearing a much heavier torture stake.

The intent of this article, is to rattle the bees nest. And you all are the bees. TJC is merely poking because he enjoys the swatting. King Bee @Watchman , what say you?

Philia, TJC.

 

[Watchman]

In view of the fact that the Kingdom has not come, that Jesus' presence has not begun, that God is not shaking the nations to gather his loyal ones yet, staking out a place in the Watchtower as if it were a permanent institution is an act of futility.

 

[Nomex]

@Tink @TheJehuChariot

I could not agree more with everything you wrote. There's a couple more things I'd point out. For example, when the Bible speaks about "inheriting God's Kingdom" that calls to mind at least two questions, who inherits a Kingdom, and when does that Kingdom begin. Clearly, that is Christ and his bride. That's the whole point to the imagery. And Robert has pointed out Jesus presents them as "perfect" before Jehovah, so clearly there is a higher expectation for them. So for them it begins when they go to heaven. Here's something else to consider regarding the Great Crowd. We are NOT presented before Jehovah by Jesus as perfect. WT seems to think the 1,000 reign is that long, because it will take mankind that long to become "perfect." That would mean that until we reach perfection, we will still be sinning? Therefore Jesus sacrifice would continue to apply until we are perfect, so I would argue God's Kingdom for the rest of mankind does not really begin until "the tent of God reside with mankind" until they are perfect, on earth, so after Jesus turns the Kingdom back over to Jehovah and he "can be all things to all people."

Since I have young children this question of baptism is also first and foremost in my mind. But if you use the Bible as the standard, "baptizing them is the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit", nothing in there mentions "and the Watchtower corporation", so it's my stand that that is just another "man-made rule" WT has literally made up, but it's because of their 1914 delusion. What that elder told your sister's husband is directly related to what they believe the Mark of the Beast actually is. No JW will tell you this, in fact they probably do not even realize it themselves, but they believe you have the Mark already until and unless you get baptized as a JW! The way you get the "Mark" removed is by dedicating yourself to WT, and that is the real truth. Oh, and you can get it back, and removed again, if you get DF'd and then reinstated..and that process happens over and over again, like in your case Jehu, LOL. You'll never hear it described like I just did, because it reveals just how ludicrous the whole idea is!

And I would also add as I have pointed out in the past as well, we each answer individually to Jehovah. And as I have pointed also many times, when Jesus asked his disciples if they were going to leave too, they did NOT say, "where are we going to go away to?" they said "WHO, are we going to go away to." (Side note:We are NOT the ones who left Jehovah, it was this corrupt infiltrated Org, that has "left Jehovah.") So, our dedication is between us and Jehovah and his son...nobody else. Jehovah knows our situations better than anyone and he understands our unique positions.


Personally I believe if you feel a need to get baptized any mature brother can do it, if you follow some basic Bible guidelines, including at least two witnesses, which unless I am mistaken could include the person performing the baptism. So, it does not have to be a crowd or a spectacle. Two witnesses, read a couple or few scriptures, say a prayer and dunk! There you're done!


Also, if you don't feel a need to get re-baptized I don't think that's an issue either! Jehovah knows what's in our hearts.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

@Tink @TheJehuChariot

I could not agree more with everything you wrote. There's a couple more things I'd point out. For example, when the Bible speaks about "inheriting God's Kingdom" that calls to mind at least two questions, who inherits a Kingdom, and when does that Kingdom begin. Clearly, that is Christ and his bride. That's the whole point to the imagery. And Robert has pointed out Jesus presents them as "perfect" before Jehovah, so clearly there is a higher expectation for them. So for them it begins when they go to heaven. Here's something else to consider regarding the Great Crowd. We are NOT presented before Jehovah by Jesus as perfect. WT seems to think the 1,000 reign is that long, because it will take mankind that long to become "perfect." That would mean that until we reach perfection, we will still be sinning? Therefore Jesus sacrifice would continue to apply until we are perfect, so I would argue God's Kingdom for the rest of mankind does not really begin until "the tent of God reside with mankind" until they are perfect, on earth, so after Jesus turns the Kingdom back over to Jehovah and he "can be all things to all people."

Since I have young children this question of baptism is also first and foremost in my mind. But if you use the Bible as the standard, "baptizing them is the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit", nothing in there mentions "and the Watchtower corporation", so it's my stand that that is just another "man-made rule" WT has literally made up, but it's because of their 1914 delusion. What that elder told your sister's husband is directly related to what they believe the Mark of the Beast actually is. No JW will tell you this, in fact they probably do not even realize it themselves, but they believe you have the Mark already until and unless you get baptized as a JW! The way you get the "Mark" removed is by dedicating yourself to WT, and that is the real truth. Oh, and you can get it back, and removed again, if you get DF'd and then reinstated..and that process happens over and over again, like in your case Jehu, LOL. You'll never hear it described like I just did, because it reveals just how ludicrous the whole idea is!

And I would also add as I have pointed out in the past as well, we each answer individually to Jehovah. And as I have pointed also many times, when Jesus asked his disciples if they were going to leave too, they did NOT say, "where are we going to go away to?" they said "WHO, are we going to go away to." (Side note:We are NOT the ones who left Jehovah, it was this corrupt infiltrated Org, that has "left Jehovah.") So, our dedication is between us and Jehovah and his son...nobody else. Jehovah knows our situations better than anyone and he understands our unique positions.


Personally I believe if you feel a need to get baptized any mature brother can do it, if you follow some basic Bible guidelines, including at least two witnesses, which unless I am mistaken could include the person performing the baptism. So, it does not have to be a crowd or a spectacle. Two witnesses, read a couple or few scriptures, say a prayer and dunk! There you're done!


Also, if you don't feel a need to get re-baptized I don't think that's an issue either! Jehovah knows what's in our hearts.

But the mark of the beast can not be removed! Surely watchtower know that?

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

If you personally came to the understanding, that predominantly all Inspired Scripture, particularly Jesus words within the gospel and all subsequent books written thereafter by Paul, Peter, James, John, etc etc..... are directed specifically for the anointed whom have a heavenly reward and whom which make up the bride of Christ....... , and you learned the Scriptures are technically not directed at those outside of the bride class whom have the earthly hope...... would you still be loyal to The Father and His Son.....and obey?

If you learned that when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 he was referring to & speaking about those whom have a heavenly hope in that they will inherit a kingdom of which they rule within and shall reside with The Holy One..... would you still live righteously and obey?

If you learned that when Jesus said "No one can come to the Father unless He first draws him", he was referring to the anointed little flock class, would you of the earthly hope still obey even though you felt seemingly left out of the group?

Does it make sense that those whom claim to have hope and subsequent desire to live in the personal presence of the Ancient of Days, only to be given the cloth of infinite immortality alongside Jesus, His only begotten.... that the standard and bar set for them here as a remnant here on earth would be much higher and stringent then for the mere other sheep whom are to remain in flesh clothed with finite mortality? Would it seem fair that the latter class and great crowd of people of other sheep are set to the same standard of expectation when their reward is far less in equivalence?

I ask this in correlation with @Tink recent question on baptism. Truly, IF baptism is for the purpose of each and every humans salvation at Armageddon, then truly, the majority of all humanity are doomed. That would include the countless of individuals within the JW organization who are yet to be baptized. I argue it would be impossible for every human on earth seeking salvation during the hour of test will actually be baptized with water. But the anointed will have needed to for sure , in order to be called and saved.

It would seem pretty obvious the purpose of the Watchtowers recent articles on the deliberate focus and promotion of baptism. The more baptized, the greater the publisher count. The greater the publisher count, the more it appears to have God's blessing. It is obvious that the WT via its textbook answer, views baptism as quintessential in order to have salvation at Armageddon. That is why an imbecellic elder in Tinks congregation recently told her husband if he wanted to join the team and get off the side lines, he needed to get baptized in the JW organization. Yet her husband felt stumbled slightly because he views himself as a baptized Christian who has believed in Christ since 18 yrs old. But lets be honest, IF Tinks husband never gets baptized within the JW organization, he would never truly be viewed as one nor would he ever be able to reach out to become an elder. He would always be on the sidelines. Ahhh, the carrots held from a distance.

I truly believe the JW Organization has blown out of proportion the significance of the majority of its publishers that identify as the other sheep with an earthly hope. Does Jehovah love these ones and view them as His? Surely He does. But for now, His interaction with them is limited along with His interest. I would argue that Jehovah is primarily focused on the loyalty of the anointed ones chosen and called. Because without them, there is no bride. If there is no bride, there is no kingdom. In that scenario, the other sheep mean nothing, they are all doomed to death. First is first. The anointed class, the bride of Christ, are all that "technically matter", until the marriage takes place. And just as the Israelite nation gave birth to Christ, so the JW organization can give birth to the anointed, the 2 elders, the Elijah class. But they are the main feature to God, everything revolves around them. Everyone else, are just bystanders, eyewitnesses YET capable of due diligently imitating the anointed, holding onto their skirt the spiritual Jew, curtailing their life to be pleasing to the Father, obeying Him. Surely He adores such.

But I often wonder how many would if they understood this situation.

Another consideration, How can Tinks baptism at the age of 12 years old gain her salvation when she had no concept of "repenting from sins" and truly understood what it means to "carry Christs torture stake"?. How can any child be baptized with substance in the eyes of God if not based merely on emotion and lacks heartfelt transformation? I judge and condemn myself as well having been baptized at the innocent age of 12. Though my emotions ran deep for the God I thought I knew, I truly didnt know Him fully nor understood the beauty of His Son and his life, his sacrificed love and how such truly can wash away past sins. Not fully understanding such helped foment my life's repetitive sin and life of guilt. Now as an adult, I am more capable of appreciating what Baptism can symbolize. Is that all baptism truly means to God, is to get baptized so as to publicly identify with the JW organization? The organization destined to be run into the ground forced to chirp from the dust?

Were children of the 1st century Christians baptized as children? Were they then automatically rewarded with the heavenly hope? Did each one intimately know and love the Father? Or Did they have to live a life that grew in knowledge and that which manifested itself into deep expression of love to Jehovah the Father and His son Jesus? Did baptism back then for all, mean you were holding a only a heavenly hope, or did some understand the earthly hope?

When exactly did the doors open for those with an earthly hope? Was it as Watchtower says in the early 1900's? If so, has baptism been the mark for all? Where does the secretary ink horn of Ezekiel come into play? Does any of it ever really pertain to those with the earthly hope.... or does it all truly pertain to those with the heavenly hope.... and the rest are just bystanders? If baptism is the key to salvation, then how does the hour of test and the mark of the beast fit in and relate?

In conclusion, though my thoughts here are multiple... I would argue that the majority of those deemed to be righteous by The Judge on Judgement Day to be rewarded with life on earth, will have never had the opportunity or right moment to get baptized.

However those with a heavenly hope who dare to dream of being in the Most Holy's presence, will most certainly have need to be baptized in the name of Jesus, so as to reflect their desire to unite in Christs kingdom and wear the veil of the bride.

I'd argue the greater crowd hope has much more leeway, tolerance, margin for error.....versus the smaller group that which is under finer scrutiny, stricter moral obligation, bearing a much heavier torture stake.

The intent of this article, is to rattle the bees nest. And you all are the bees. TJC is merely poking because he enjoys the swatting. King Bee @Watchman , what say you?

Philia, TJC.

I feel that one must take into account the baptism of the heart. Though physical baptism holds water, so to speak, I do not feel it is necessary over and above the act of contrition upon realising our position before Jehovah, should it not be available. I was baptised as a witness but in my conscience, I cannot think it was validated simply by my innocence, because it is certainly not so now according to my conscience.

I assume that those whom died without faith or baptism will be resurrected because Jehovah is not so unrighteous as to ignore those deprived of truth for one reason or another. That is why I believe that it is the heart above all else that communes our intent toward Jehovah. How can it be otherwise? The act of baptism is figurative of our intent toward Jehovah but our spirituality is always going to be incomplete and therefore sinful until we are made otherwise. But the intent of our heart is the primary significant illustration of our submission to the standards required of us and validated only by our strivings toward their fulfilment.

Under the circumstances, I cannot see that a watchtower baptism is sufficient, as it can not be based upon partial understanding, let alone honest appreciation in full knowledge. But baptism of the heart certainly can because the intent of the heart is a signature of true intent in all circumstances regardless of learning - as was the case of the Ethiopian on hearing just a smidgin of scripture.

I agree with much of what you say. The outcome of salvation depends upon our informed desire to serve Jehovah. That must be selective of an insight far -infinitely - superior to our own logic. God is not to be mocked, and thus sincerity above circumstance must hold water. I do not think there is anywhere upon earth at this time where one can avail themselves of meaningful baptism. For one thing, for it to have meaning, the one giving baptism must have knowledge of its meaning along with those that may observe it. When I look back on my baptism in watchtower, the only merit I had for it was that I believed a lie. Now I see the significance of any baptism is within myself alone and now that I can at last see the meaning of it, I find I’m hardly worthy of it. Not only that but my heart runs off a pacemaker and that requires changing every six or seven years! Where do I go from here as I’m already on my third implant!

 

[BibleLover]

If you personally came to the understanding, that predominantly all Inspired Scripture, particularly Jesus words within the gospel and all subsequent books written thereafter by Paul, Peter, James, John, etc etc..... are directed specifically for the anointed whom have a heavenly reward and whom which make up the bride of Christ....... , and you learned the Scriptures are technically not directed at those outside of the bride class whom have the earthly hope...... would you still be loyal to The Father and His Son.....and obey?

If you learned that when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 he was referring to & speaking about those whom have a heavenly hope in that they will inherit a kingdom of which they rule within and shall reside with The Holy One..... would you still live righteously and obey?

If you learned that when Jesus said "No one can come to the Father unless He first draws him", he was referring to the anointed little flock class, would you of the earthly hope still obey even though you felt seemingly left out of the group?

Does it make sense that those whom claim to have hope and subsequent desire to live in the personal presence of the Ancient of Days, only to be given the cloth of infinite immortality alongside Jesus, His only begotten.... that the standard and bar set for them here as a remnant here on earth would be much higher and stringent then for the mere other sheep whom are to remain in flesh clothed with finite mortality? Would it seem fair that the latter class and great crowd of people of other sheep are set to the same standard of expectation when their reward is far less in equivalence?

I ask this in correlation with @Tink recent question on baptism. Truly, IF baptism is for the purpose of each and every humans salvation at Armageddon, then truly, the majority of all humanity are doomed. That would include the countless of individuals within the JW organization who are yet to be baptized. I argue it would be impossible for every human on earth seeking salvation during the hour of test will actually be baptized with water. But the anointed will have needed to for sure , in order to be called and saved.

It would seem pretty obvious the purpose of the Watchtowers recent articles on the deliberate focus and promotion of baptism. The more baptized, the greater the publisher count. The greater the publisher count, the more it appears to have God's blessing. It is obvious that the WT via its textbook answer, views baptism as quintessential in order to have salvation at Armageddon. That is why an imbecellic elder in Tinks congregation recently told her husband if he wanted to join the team and get off the side lines, he needed to get baptized in the JW organization. Yet her husband felt stumbled slightly because he views himself as a baptized Christian who has believed in Christ since 18 yrs old. But lets be honest, IF Tinks husband never gets baptized within the JW organization, he would never truly be viewed as one nor would he ever be able to reach out to become an elder. He would always be on the sidelines. Ahhh, the carrots held from a distance.

I truly believe the JW Organization has blown out of proportion the significance of the majority of its publishers that identify as the other sheep with an earthly hope. Does Jehovah love these ones and view them as His? Surely He does. But for now, His interaction with them is limited along with His interest. I would argue that Jehovah is primarily focused on the loyalty of the anointed ones chosen and called. Because without them, there is no bride. If there is no bride, there is no kingdom. In that scenario, the other sheep mean nothing, they are all doomed to death. First is first. The anointed class, the bride of Christ, are all that "technically matter", until the marriage takes place. And just as the Israelite nation gave birth to Christ, so the JW organization can give birth to the anointed, the 2 elders, the Elijah class. But they are the main feature to God, everything revolves around them. Everyone else, are just bystanders, eyewitnesses YET capable of due diligently imitating the anointed, holding onto their skirt the spiritual Jew, curtailing their life to be pleasing to the Father, obeying Him. Surely He adores such.

But I often wonder how many would if they understood this situation.

Another consideration, How can Tinks baptism at the age of 12 years old gain her salvation when she had no concept of "repenting from sins" and truly understood what it means to "carry Christs torture stake"?. How can any child be baptized with substance in the eyes of God if not based merely on emotion and lacks heartfelt transformation? I judge and condemn myself as well having been baptized at the innocent age of 12. Though my emotions ran deep for the God I thought I knew, I truly didnt know Him fully nor understood the beauty of His Son and his life, his sacrificed love and how such truly can wash away past sins. Not fully understanding such helped foment my life's repetitive sin and life of guilt. Now as an adult, I am more capable of appreciating what Baptism can symbolize. Is that all baptism truly means to God, is to get baptized so as to publicly identify with the JW organization? The organization destined to be run into the ground forced to chirp from the dust?

Were children of the 1st century Christians baptized as children? Were they then automatically rewarded with the heavenly hope? Did each one intimately know and love the Father? Or Did they have to live a life that grew in knowledge and that which manifested itself into deep expression of love to Jehovah the Father and His son Jesus? Did baptism back then for all, mean you were holding a only a heavenly hope, or did some understand the earthly hope?

When exactly did the doors open for those with an earthly hope? Was it as Watchtower says in the early 1900's? If so, has baptism been the mark for all? Where does the secretary ink horn of Ezekiel come into play? Does any of it ever really pertain to those with the earthly hope.... or does it all truly pertain to those with the heavenly hope.... and the rest are just bystanders? If baptism is the key to salvation, then how does the hour of test and the mark of the beast fit in and relate?

In conclusion, though my thoughts here are multiple... I would argue that the majority of those deemed to be righteous by The Judge on Judgement Day to be rewarded with life on earth, will have never had the opportunity or right moment to get baptized.

However those with a heavenly hope who dare to dream of being in the Most Holy's presence, will most certainly have need to be baptized in the name of Jesus, so as to reflect their desire to unite in Christs kingdom and wear the veil of the bride.

I'd argue the greater crowd hope has much more leeway, tolerance, margin for error.....versus the smaller group that which is under finer scrutiny, stricter moral obligation, bearing a much heavier torture stake.

The intent of this article, is to rattle the bees nest. And you all are the bees. TJC is merely poking because he enjoys the swatting. King Bee @Watchman , what say you?

Philia, TJC.

I’ve continued thinking about your points regarding the anointed and the earthly hope, and one thing I personally struggle with is the idea that the earthly class would somehow be under lower moral expectations or be of lesser importance to Jehovah.

When Paul wrote passages such as 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 regarding morality and inheriting God’s Kingdom, I don’t see indications that the principles applied only to those with a heavenly hope while others had more leeway because their reward was earthly. Likewise, Jesus’ teachings about self-sacrifice, holiness, forgiveness, love, and carrying the torture stake seem directed toward all disciples, not merely a smaller inner class.

If earthly believers were held to a lower standard because their reward is “lesser,” then obedience begins to sound tied to rank or compensation rather than love for God. Yet Jesus consistently connected obedience with love and loyalty, not status.

That is also why I hesitate when discussions about the anointed begin sounding hierarchical, as though the “other sheep” are mainly bystanders while the anointed are the only ones that truly matter to Jehovah at present.

For example, when I think about faithful men such as Moses, Abraham, Jeremiah, Elijah, Daniel, or John the Baptist, it becomes difficult for me to conclude that they are spiritually inferior simply because they lived before the heavenly calling opened through Christ. Jesus himself said regarding John the Baptist that among those born of women no one greater had arisen.

I also find the Transfiguration interesting in this regard. Moses and Elijah appear alongside Jesus in glory representing the Law and the Prophets. That scene gives enormous dignity and honor to faithful pre-Christian servants. The account does not give the impression that they are somehow spiritually secondary or less meaningful to God compared with later anointed Christians.

That makes me think the heavenly calling may not primarily be about greater personal worth, but rather a specific assignment within God’s Kingdom arrangement.

The anointed are described as kings and priests who rule with Christ during the 1,000 years. Their role appears administrative and restorative — helping bring humankind back to perfection and complete reconciliation with God. In that sense, their immortality and heavenly position fit the function they are assigned.

Meanwhile, the rest of faithful humanity progressively reaches perfection during the Millennium and, after the final test following Satan’s release, becomes fully reconciled sons of God as well.

If that understanding is correct, then the difference between the anointed and the earthly class is not that one group is eternally more important to Jehovah than the other, but rather that one receives a role earlier in the process of restoration.

At the end of the 1,000 years, the result is not two permanently separated classes of value, but one united family of loyal sons of God — some with heavenly responsibilities, others living eternally on earth as originally purposed.

That perspective personally helps me reconcile several scriptures together:

. The honor given to faithful pre-Christian servants.
. The exalted role of the anointed.
. The original earthly purpose in Eden.
. The final picture in Revelation where God is ultimately “with mankind.”

So perhaps the Kingdom arrangement is less about spiritual elitism and more about different functions working toward the same final outcome: complete reconciliation of God’s family.

 

[Nomex]

I hesitate when discussions about the anointed begin sounding hierarchical,

Well then you have to ignore the fact that Jehovah has indeed arranged things in a hierarchy. We see this in the different ranks of angels, and we also see it among Jehovah's human servants, women are over the children, the man over his family household, and Christ over the family/congregation. You also have to ignore that the anointed do not have to "attain to perfection" in the same way those of the earthly class will have to, during Christ Millennial reign. Their role is in fact very different, and there would have been no need of them at all, at least not in this regard, if Adam and Eve had not sinned. So the entire arrangement is special and or different. In fact they will out ranked the angels. The angels are not given "life unto themselves!"

God is a "God of order not disorder." In fact Jehovah sets the example by delegating out authority and tasks. Jehovah created his son, so he could take part in creation. Jesus had a special role or rank even before he came to the earth and died for mankind.

A hierarchy is simply a way to delegate tasks and authority. There are many Bibles verses which bears this out. The parable of the talents, is one, and this is what Matt 25:29 is referring to. The Bible even refers to Satan as having been a high ranking angel before he rebelled!


So don't hesitate, embrace it!

 

[Nomex]

But the mark of the beast can not be removed! Surely watchtower know that?

Apparently they do NOT! But like I said, they won't tell you this, but it is in fact what they believe.

 

[Nomex]

the mark of the beast can not be removed!

You also have to keep in mind Barn, all of the prophecies, ALL on them in Revelation, according to WT have been fulfilled except for 3. The declaration of
"peace and security", the GT and Armageddon! Everything else has been fulfilled or continues to "be fulfilled" over and over again! BTW, Robert has pointed this out, that you can get the mark removed. And until I heard him say it, I had never really thought about it, but then I was like, "you know what, he's 100% right. They do teach that." In fact that's a VERY BIG reason why they insist everyone gets baptized. I remember being taught growing up, that the only reason I could be saved, was because my parents were baptized JW's. Now, full disclosure, I do not think, and I am not saying they said it like this, but that is indeed what they believe. It's one of those, "unspoken messages" Barn." Get with the program there buddy! The "Mark" is "what you do and what you think." And if you don't think and do as WT tells you, you aint getting the Mark removed buddy. Everyone since 1919, 0r was it 1918, or maybe 1929 everyone is essentially born with the Mark. That's part of what living in the "last days" entails.

 

[Tink]

Well then you have to ignore the fact that Jehovah has indeed arranged things in a hierarchy. We see this in the different ranks of angels, and we also see it among Jehovah's human servants, women are over the children, the man over his family household, and Christ over the family/congregation. You also have to ignore that the anointed do not have to "attain to perfection" in the same way those of the earthly class will have to, during Christ Millennial reign. Their role is in fact very different, and there would have been no need of them at all, at least not in this regard, if Adam and Eve had not sinned. So the entire arrangement is special and or different. In fact they will out ranked the angels. The angels are not given "life unto themselves!"

God is a "God of order not disorder." In fact Jehovah sets the example by delegating out authority and tasks. Jehovah created his son, so he could take part in creation. Jesus had a special role or rank even before he came to the earth and died fort mankind.

A hierarchy is simply a way to delegate tasks and authority. There are many Bibles verses which bears this out. The parable of the talents, is one, and this is what Matt 25:29 is referring to. The Bible even refers to Satan as having been a high ranking angel before he rebelled!


So don't hesitate, embrace it!

I really like these points to drive it home! I had not thought of this specifically, but yes such logical and clear sense. Thank you!

 

[BibleLover]

Well then you have to ignore the fact that Jehovah has indeed arranged things in a hierarchy. We see this in the different ranks of angels, and we also see it among Jehovah's human servants, women are over the children, the man over his family household, and Christ over the family/congregation. You also have to ignore that the anointed do not have to "attain to perfection" in the same way those of the earthly class will have to, during Christ Millennial reign. Their role is in fact very different, and there would have been no need of them at all, at least not in this regard, if Adam and Eve had not sinned. So the entire arrangement is special and or different. In fact they will out ranked the angels. The angels are not given "life unto themselves!"

God is a "God of order not disorder." In fact Jehovah sets the example by delegating out authority and tasks. Jehovah created his son, so he could take part in creation. Jesus had a special role or rank even before he came to the earth and died for mankind.

A hierarchy is simply a way to delegate tasks and authority. There are many Bibles verses which bears this out. The parable of the talents, is one, and this is what Matt 25:29 is referring to. The Bible even refers to Satan as having been a high ranking angel before he rebelled!


So don't hesitate, embrace it!

I actually agree with you that Jehovah uses hierarchy, order, delegated authority, and differing roles. I do not deny that at all. As you mentioned, the Bible clearly presents ranks among angels, authority structures within the family and congregation.

So I don’t struggle with the idea of differing assignments or authority.

What I question is when hierarchy becomes interpreted as hierarchy of personal value or divine affection.

For example, parents possess authority over children, but that does not make children less loved or less meaningful within the family. That is why I personally distinguish between hierarchy of function and hierarchy of worth.

I completely agree that the anointed have a unique role: they receive immortality, rule with Christ, and participate in restoring humankind during the Millennium. As you said, this arrangement itself only became necessary because of sin. Had Adam and Eve remained faithful, there would have been no need for a mediatorial Kingdom government to restore humanity.

But even acknowledging that special role, I still hesitate to conclude that the earthly class therefore “matters less” to Jehovah or exists mainly as bystanders to the real story. The reason is because Scripture consistently gives enormous dignity to faithful humans outside the heavenly ruling arrangement. For example, at the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appear alongside Jesus in glory representing the Law and the Prophets. That scene gives tremendous honor to faithful pre-Christian servants. The account does not portray them as spiritually secondary or of lesser importance to God simply because they were not part of the future heavenly Kingdom class.

Likewise, Jesus said no one greater than John the Baptist had arisen among those born of women. Yet according to the traditional understanding, John would not be among the heavenly rulers because of timing. But notice the point: John the Baptist was greater than them. To me, that suggests the heavenly calling is primarily about assignment and role, not necessarily superior spiritual worth.

And I think the final outcome of the Kingdom arrangement supports that idea. The anointed receive sonship and immortality earlier because they are assigned a restorative governmental role. Meanwhile, faithful humanity progresses toward perfection during the Millennium and, after the final test, also becomes fully reconciled sons of God.

So while there is clearly hierarchy of responsibility and authority, the final picture still appears to be one united family of loyal sons of God rather than one eternally superior class and another permanently lesser class.

That is why I do not resist the idea of hierarchy itself. I simply hesitate when hierarchy becomes interpreted as meaning that Jehovah’s interest, love, or valuation of His faithful earthly servants is substantially lower.

 

[BibleLover]

One thought that has helped me personally is the parable of the prodigal son.

Sometimes discussions about the anointed and the earthly hope can unintentionally sound as though one group matters much more to Jehovah than the other. But when I think about the overall story of the Bible, I wonder if the focus is less about superiority and more about restoration of God’s family.

The anointed may receive a special role earlier as kings and priests during Christ’s Millennial reign. But the final picture after the 1,000 years seems to be that faithful humankind also becomes fully reconciled sons of God after the final test.

In that sense, the prodigal son illustration feels very fitting to me.

The son who remained in the father’s house could picture those already close to the Father and entrusted with responsibilities.

The prodigal son could picture humankind gradually returning to full reconciliation with God.

But the beautiful part is this: in the end, both are sons.

The father in Jesus’ illustration was not cold or distant toward the returning son. He ran to receive him joyfully because the relationship had been restored.

That helps me appreciate that Jehovah’s purpose may ultimately be about restoring all loyal humanity into His family — whether in heaven or on earth — rather than creating permanent classes of greater and lesser value.

The Kingdom arrangement restores what was lost in Eden: a united family fully reconciled to God.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Well then you have to ignore the fact that Jehovah has indeed arranged things in a hierarchy. We see this in the different ranks of angels, and we also see it among Jehovah's human servants, women are over the children, the man over his family household, and Christ over the family/congregation. You also have to ignore that the anointed do not have to "attain to perfection" in the same way those of the earthly class will have to, during Christ Millennial reign. Their role is in fact very different, and there would have been no need of them at all, at least not in this regard, if Adam and Eve had not sinned. So the entire arrangement is special and or different. In fact they will out ranked the angels. The angels are not given "life unto themselves!"

God is a "God of order not disorder." In fact Jehovah sets the example by delegating out authority and tasks. Jehovah created his son, so he could take part in creation. Jesus had a special role or rank even before he came to the earth and died for mankind.

A hierarchy is simply a way to delegate tasks and authority. There are many Bibles verses which bears this out. The parable of the talents, is one, and this is what Matt 25:29 is referring to. The Bible even refers to Satan as having been a high ranking angel before he rebelled!


So don't hesitate, embrace it!

I’m not sure that a hierarchy exists - you will have to convince me otherwise. I would suggest “purpose” or “order” is more appropriate, though I do not intend to split hairs. Life is life. One either has it or does not. Those going to reside with Jehovah are no more alive than we are. What they represent in the worship and status of expression of the will of Jehovah is a different matter. Can there be a variance in the standards of perfection? How can one judge a variance in perfection when there can be none? Perfection is the measure of purpose but one can still have rewards within that gift. Authority can define perfection but that belongs only to Jehovah, surely. That’s what the debacle in life is all about is it not?

 

[MickHewitt]

That is also why I hesitate when discussions about the anointed begin sounding hierarchical, as though the “other sheep” are mainly bystanders while the anointed are the only ones that truly matter to Jehovah at present.

The holier than thou elite at Bethel are mostly to blame for making the distinction between the two folds wider than should be. And Jehovah hates them for it! They are as smoke in His nostrils all day long! Isa65:5 A wise thing to observe is to love those loved by Jehovah. He said to Moses: "I will show mercy to whomever I show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion" Romans9:15

 

[TheJehuChariot]

One thought that has helped me personally is the parable of the prodigal son.

Sometimes discussions about the anointed and the earthly hope can unintentionally sound as though one group matters much more to Jehovah than the other. But when I think about the overall story of the Bible, I wonder if the focus is less about superiority and more about restoration of God’s family.

The anointed may receive a special role earlier as kings and priests during Christ’s Millennial reign. But the final picture after the 1,000 years seems to be that faithful humankind also becomes fully reconciled sons of God after the final test.

In that sense, the prodigal son illustration feels very fitting to me.

The son who remained in the father’s house could picture those already close to the Father and entrusted with responsibilities.

The prodigal son could picture humankind gradually returning to full reconciliation with God.

But the beautiful part is this: in the end, both are sons.

The father in Jesus’ illustration was not cold or distant toward the returning son. He ran to receive him joyfully because the relationship had been restored.

That helps me appreciate that Jehovah’s purpose may ultimately be about restoring all loyal humanity into His family — whether in heaven or on earth — rather than creating permanent classes of greater and lesser value.

The Kingdom arrangement restores what was lost in Eden: a united family fully reconciled to God.

Why are you so reluctant and resistive to the consideration and the thought that the bride of Christ holds a higher, more cherished position in the eyes of God, than the Great Crowd on earth? Even if its incorrect, Why aren't you inclined to just say, "Yes of course they do?". You are resistive. Why? Is that ego.....? Does it make you feel unloved? Does such a thought make you feel not as important? Jesus surely said, he who wants to be first, must be last (rank). I guarantee you that ALL whom are deemed to be Faithful AND Discreet by Jesus, would gladly acquiesce to any lower level of fondness or significance held in the eyes of the Almighty if He said so. Why? Because their heart will be formed into one of immense humility. So much so, the Chosen Ones would be willing and eager to fulfill their commissioned assignment all the way to their predestined execution by the Beast, even IF, they were to receive no reward. Even if the Chosen Ones were told there would be no eternity for them, they would still fulfil their assignment. Why? Because they just love the Father so much. So much so, that at the end of the 1,000 years when all is handed back to Jehovah, they hand over their crowns and would willingly offer back their cloth of immortality, IF that is what God wanted. That is how much they will have come to know Him and love Him , as too the Lamb, with his name written across their foreheads. You dont think they are a "special possession"? It doesnt matter that if Adam never sinned that they wouldnt have been needed. They will be a "new creation". Do you believe Seraphs and Cherubs hold a more cherished , perhaps affectionate position with the Almighty? If an Angel appeared before you tomorrow, would you not first be inclined to drop to your knees out of extreme reverence? I would say its much safer and wiser to default that prior to the end of 1,000 years, the Chosen Ones hold a more special position. And why shouldn't they? Are you as a member of the hoped for earthly class currently being judged and assessed for your fleshly sins and where you have or are falling short in obedience to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10? Hardly not. Your judgement is in the future. But the Chosen Ones are.... may I clarify particularly those "Being Called", as not all called will be sealed. But those destined to be sealed in heaven surely are being judged NOW on the merits of their conduct and how they qualify to be drawn to The Father, tested with fire to complete ther calling and qualify per the requirements of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. To ascertain do they truly love the Father with their whole heart, soul, mind and strength. I noticed you are fixated on the thought that somehow I said the standards for earthly class are "watered down". I never said such nor meant to imply such. That would go against Gods desire for holiness. He has the right to demand such. But he knows the human flesh is weak. What im saying is that the JW Organization has roasted and burned tens of thousands if not more of its adherents condemning them in judicial committees and disfellowshippings etc for decades upon decades, spiritually killing many .... lambasting with endless guilt and shame for failing to maintain the qualifications of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Should ALL claiming to love Christ and the Father STRIVE wholeheartedly to mold there life morally according to Scripture and its moral precedent? Absolutely, without question. That would be the loving and wise thing to do. My argument is that NOW, in the interim, until Christ return and the hour of test begins and the subsequent Judgement Day, during this preaching of the kingdom period..... the expectations of the earthly class ARE NOT the same as what is expected from the Chosen Ones. Does that make God love less? For goodness sake, God notices and loves the wee sparrow that falls to the ground. He loves the dogs and cats in our home we cherish. God is love. He loves all living things and human creation. But I do believe His attention "right now" is primarily focused on the actions and outcome of The Chosen. As their conduct and actions definitely give the Devil platform to taunt. How dare these puny humans whom sit on porcelain privys be given immortality before the face of God Himself, something not even the Devil was gifted. The jealousy , anger and rage he will have towards those Chosen will be manifest in the way they are collectively murdered in the final part of the days. I argue it truly shows just how dire and peril of a situation the human race is and for those whom have the earthly hope. Truly, so separated from the Holy One. Yet He yearns to be connected "directly" and intimately with every single one like with Adam in the garden. Unfortunately, as we know, that blessing will not occur till after 1,000 years. So in the interim, the faithful to death Chosen Ones, the 144,000, the bride of Christ,.... I would say are "special", perhaps even more special then the earthly class. If so, that is God's right, if that is the case. But regardless, its a healthy and beautiful thing to clamor for God's love and favortism.....surely He smiles with approval watching, as a tender Father would. And as a Father loves ALL his family, for awhile... only the children will be allowed inside His home. The rest, say the cousins, are outside in the camper RV trailer in the driveway or in the garage, still under His watch and care. Once He's done cleaning house and building more rooms, surely He will then "adopt" everyone as sons and daughters, and they will get to come inside and sit on His lap. But even then, I bet the 144,000 will always get to talk to Dad.... first. (Just my two quarters).

Btw, often times... I write in response off the cuff. I also sometimes write with a form of symbolism. Other times too, I may not properly and eloquently express proper my overall viewpoint and intent because Im thinking overtly analytical. And often, without voice tone and reflection, its hard to relay the ultimate "point trying to be made ". Often times I hope and pray the reader can read between my lines. What I can genuinely say, my intent is not nor ever to be demonstrative, all knowing, condemning, condescending or so matter of fact without considering others feelings. Admittedly, being slightly provocative in expression or viewpoint also helps stimulate robust discussion and helps weed out the inaccuracies and helps vet our beliefs and test for truth. But over everything, all is always expressed with deep brotherly and christ like love. ~ TJC needs to put a new harnass on his horses. And his chariot is getting battered and has worn out wheels).

 

[TheJehuChariot]

I’m not sure that a hierarchy exists - you will have to convince me otherwise. I would suggest “purpose” or “order” is more appropriate, though I do not intend to split hairs. Life is life. One either has it or does not. Those going to reside with Jehovah are no more alive than we are. What they represent in the worship and status of expression of the will of Jehovah is a different matter. Can there be a variance in the standards of perfection? How can one judge a variance in perfection when there can be none? Perfection is the measure of purpose but one can still have rewards within that gift. Authority can define perfection but that belongs only to Jehovah, surely. That’s what the debacle in life is all about is it not?

You have a gifted, God blessed brain oh Burt! Without your insight and expressions, this would all be dull and doldrums. Like drinking a flat London Fullers . You give hops to the brew my Brother!

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Why are you so reluctant and resistive to the consideration and the thought that the bride of Christ holds a higher, more cherished position in the eyes of God, than the Great Crowd on earth? Even if its incorrect, Why aren't you inclined to just say, "Yes of course they do?". You are resistive. Why? Is that ego.....? Does it make you feel unloved? Does such a thought make you feel not as important? Jesus surely said, he who wants to be first, must be last (rank). I guarantee you that ALL whom are deemed to be Faithful AND Discreet by Jesus, would gladly acquiesce to any lower level of fondness or significance held in the eyes of the Almighty if He said so. Why? Because their heart will be formed into one of immense humility. So much so, the Chosen Ones would be willing and eager to fulfill their commissioned assignment all the way to their predestined execution by the Beast, even IF, they were to receive no reward. Even if the Chosen Ones were told there would be no eternity for them, they would still fulfil their assignment. Why? Because they just love the Father so much. So much so, that at the end of the 1,000 years when all is handed back to Jehovah, they hand over their crowns and would willingly offer back their cloth of immortality, IF that is what God wanted. That is how much they will have come to know Him and love Him , as too the Lamb, with his name written across their foreheads. You dont think they are a "special possession"? It doesnt matter that if Adam never sinned that they wouldnt have been needed. They will be a "new creation". Do you believe Seraphs and Cherubs hold a more cherished , perhaps affectionate position with the Almighty? If an Angel appeared before you tomorrow, would you not first be inclined to drop to your knees out of extreme reverence? I would say its much safer and wiser to default that prior to the end of 1,000 years, the Chosen Ones hold a more special position. And why shouldn't they? Are you as a member of the hoped for earthly class currently being judged and assessed for your fleshly sins and where you have or are falling short in obedience to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10? Hardly not. Your judgement is in the future. But the Chosen Ones are.... may I clarify particularly those "Being Called", as not all called will be sealed. But those destined to be sealed in heaven surely are being judged NOW on the merits of their conduct and how they qualify to be drawn to The Father, tested with fire to complete ther calling and qualify per the requirements of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. To ascertain do they truly love the Father with their whole heart, soul, mind and strength. I noticed you are fixated on the thought that somehow I said the standards for earthly class are "watered down". I never said such nor meant to imply such. That would go against Gods desire for holiness. He has the right to demand such. But he knows the human flesh is weak. What im saying is that the JW Organization has roasted and burned tens of thousands if not more of its adherents condemning them in judicial committees and disfellowshippings etc for decades upon decades, spiritually killing many .... lambasting with endless guilt and shame for failing to maintain the qualifications of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Should ALL claiming to love Christ and the Father STRIVE wholeheartedly to mold there life morally according to Scripture and its moral precedent? Absolutely, without question. That would be the loving and wise thing to do. My argument is that NOW, in the interim, until Christ return and the hour of test begins and the subsequent Judgement Day, during this preaching of the kingdom period..... the expectations of the earthly class ARE NOT the same as what is expected from the Chosen Ones. Does that make God love less? For goodness sake, God notices and loves the wee sparrow that falls to the ground. He loves the dogs and cats in our home we cherish. God is love. He loves all living things and human creation. But I do believe His attention "right now" is primarily focused on the actions and outcome of The Chosen. As their conduct and actions definitely give the Devil platform to taunt. How dare these puny humans whom sit on porcelain privys be given immortality before the face of God Himself, something not even the Devil was gifted. The jealousy , anger and rage he will have towards those Chosen will be manifest in the way they are collectively murdered in the final part of the days. I argue it truly shows just how dire and peril of a situation the human race is and for those whom have the earthly hope. Truly, so separated from the Holy One. Yet He yearns to be connected "directly" and intimately with every single one like with Adam in the garden. Unfortunately, as we know, that blessing will not occur till after 1,000 years. So in the interim, the faithful to death Chosen Ones, the 144,000, the bride of Christ,.... I would say are "special", perhaps even more special then the earthly class. If so, that is God's right, if that is the case. But regardless, its a healthy and beautiful thing to clamor for God's love and favortism.....surely He smiles with approval watching, as a tender Father would. And as a Father loves ALL his family, for awhile... only the children will be allowed inside His home. The rest, say the cousins, are outside in the camper RV trailer in the driveway or in the garage, still under His watch and care. Once He's done cleaning house and building more rooms, surely He will then "adopt" everyone as sons and daughters, and they will get to come inside and sit on His lap. But even then, I bet the 144,000 will always get to talk to Dad.... first. (Just my two quarters).

Btw, often times... I write in response off the cuff. I also sometimes write with a form of symbolism. Other times too, I may not properly and eloquently express proper my overall viewpoint and intent because Im thinking overtly analytical. And often, without voice tone and reflection, its hard to relay the ultimate "point trying to be made ". Often times I hope and pray the reader can read between my lines. What I can genuinely say, my intent is not nor ever to be demonstrative, all knowing, condemning, condescending or so matter of fact without considering others feelings. Admittedly, being slightly provocative in expression or viewpoint also helps stimulate robust discussion and helps weed out the inaccuracies and helps vet our beliefs and test for truth. But over everything, all is always expressed with deep brotherly and christ like love. ~ TJC needs to put a new harnass on his horses. And his chariot is getting battered and has worn out wheels).

I can see what biblelover is suggesting on this occasion - though I rarely do, I admit - but as I suggested to Nomex, I think it’s a matter of semantics. Whether we excrete or not is not the issue really because we were made that way perfectly and thus there is no disgrace or lowliness to be found in it. The angels even desire to experience our form of life and applauded our very existence.

The point of authority within Jehovah’s arrangement, must be refined upon what is necessary for our existence. If we fulfil our role within that arrangement we fulfil our purpose. What further authority do we need? Of what concern is that to those whose experience of life is different? Do the fish of the sea or the birds of the air desire our existence? Why should that be so of us then compared with others of a different existence within Jehovah’s provision? Angels desired women and “left their natural place”.

These are issues of heart, not of position in a perfect arrangement. Most of us here feel content with our porcelain pots, but a few of us desire a different existence, or are drawn to it - and that sense of direction is a gift, not of their own desire, but a “calling” to an intangible asset of life undreamt of. How could they know otherwise. It is a hierarchy of sorts, but not one that is natural to us, but desirous of, through the understanding of spirituality - also something given to us, though not perceived.

I would suggest that our expectations are the same as those of the anointed because reward is not one of them. We have no inkling of heavenly life, but we do have a calling and both are unobtainable and outside of our imagining as we are simply not given such insight. We “hope” only. That expectation is to live so that we can experience the proximity of our creator in all its fullness. We all live in the same house insofar as that is concerned. Jehovah walked upon His earth and spoke with Adam.

Thus what I personally ‘see’ is ‘inclusion’ within Jehovah’s purpose. Can the anointed feel closer to Jehovah than we upon earth when the Holy Spirit resides with both? Is the sea any less than the earth in that regard, or the realm of the birds, somehow lower than that of those that reside within the great seas?

The message of Jehovah is to all those that love Him. Are those destined to the heavens any closer to Jehovah when that is measured by the desire of the heart and not the physical body. The angels too have a metaphorical heart do they not? It is what we are measured by spiritually, whether porcelain be part of our existence or not. .

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

You have a gifted, God blessed brain oh Burt! Without your insight and expressions, this would all be dull and doldrums. Like drinking a flat London Fullers . You give hops to the brew my Brother!

Thank you for your kind words. I am humbled. If you know of Fullers might I suggest their London Porter. We will raise a glass together.

 

[TheJehuChariot]

I can see what biblelover is suggesting on this occasion - though I rarely do, I admit - but as I suggested to Nomex, I think it’s a matter of semantics. Whether we excrete or not is not the issue really because we were made that way perfectly and thus there is no disgrace or lowliness to be found in it. The angels even desire to experience our form of life and applauded our very existence.

The point of authority within Jehovah’s arrangement, must be refined upon what is necessary for our existence. If we fulfil our role within that arrangement we fulfil our purpose. What further authority do we need? Of what concern is that to those whose experience of life is different? Do the fish of the sea or the birds of the air desire our existence? Why should that be so of us then compared with others of a different existence within Jehovah’s provision? Angels desired women and “left their natural place”.

These are issues of heart, not of position in a perfect arrangement. Most of us here feel content with our porcelain pots, but a few of us desire a different existence, or are drawn to it - and that sense of direction is a gift, not of their own desire, but a “calling” to an intangible asset of life undreamt of. How could they know otherwise. It is a hierarchy of sorts, but not one that is natural to us, but desirous of, through the understanding of spirituality - also something given to us, though not perceived.

I would suggest that our expectations are the same as those of the anointed because reward is not one of them. We have no inkling of heavenly life, but we do have a calling and both are unobtainable and outside of our imagining as we are simply not given such insight. We “hope” only. That expectation is to live so that we can experience the proximity of our creator in all its fullness. We all live in the same house insofar as that is concerned. Jehovah walked upon His earth and spoke with Adam.

Thus what I personally ‘see’ is ‘inclusion’ within Jehovah’s purpose. Can the anointed feel closer to Jehovah than we upon earth when the Holy Spirit resides with both? Is the sea any less than the earth in that regard, or the realm of the birds, somehow lower than that of those that reside within the great seas?

The message of Jehovah is to all those that love Him. Are those destined to the heavens any closer to Jehovah when that is measured by the desire of the heart and not the physical body. The angels too have a metaphorical heart do they not? It is what we are measured by spiritually, whether porcelain be part of our existence or not. .

My dear Brother, thank you for the profound, insightful and wholesome description you relayed. We all truly "hope". Imagine life without such. No, lets dont. That would be unbearable.

 

[BibleLover]

Why are you so reluctant and resistive to the consideration and the thought that the bride of Christ holds a higher, more cherished position in the eyes of God, than the Great Crowd on earth? Even if its incorrect, Why aren't you inclined to just say, "Yes of course they do?". You are resistive. Why? Is that ego.....? Does it make you feel unloved? Does such a thought make you feel not as important? Jesus surely said, he who wants to be first, must be last (rank). I guarantee you that ALL whom are deemed to be Faithful AND Discreet by Jesus, would gladly acquiesce to any lower level of fondness or significance held in the eyes of the Almighty if He said so. Why? Because their heart will be formed into one of immense humility. So much so, the Chosen Ones would be willing and eager to fulfill their commissioned assignment all the way to their predestined execution by the Beast, even IF, they were to receive no reward. Even if the Chosen Ones were told there would be no eternity for them, they would still fulfil their assignment. Why? Because they just love the Father so much. So much so, that at the end of the 1,000 years when all is handed back to Jehovah, they hand over their crowns and would willingly offer back their cloth of immortality, IF that is what God wanted. That is how much they will have come to know Him and love Him , as too the Lamb, with his name written across their foreheads. You dont think they are a "special possession"? It doesnt matter that if Adam never sinned that they wouldnt have been needed. They will be a "new creation". Do you believe Seraphs and Cherubs hold a more cherished , perhaps affectionate position with the Almighty? If an Angel appeared before you tomorrow, would you not first be inclined to drop to your knees out of extreme reverence? I would say its much safer and wiser to default that prior to the end of 1,000 years, the Chosen Ones hold a more special position. And why shouldn't they? Are you as a member of the hoped for earthly class currently being judged and assessed for your fleshly sins and where you have or are falling short in obedience to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10? Hardly not. Your judgement is in the future. But the Chosen Ones are.... may I clarify particularly those "Being Called", as not all called will be sealed. But those destined to be sealed in heaven surely are being judged NOW on the merits of their conduct and how they qualify to be drawn to The Father, tested with fire to complete ther calling and qualify per the requirements of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. To ascertain do they truly love the Father with their whole heart, soul, mind and strength. I noticed you are fixated on the thought that somehow I said the standards for earthly class are "watered down". I never said such nor meant to imply such. That would go against Gods desire for holiness. He has the right to demand such. But he knows the human flesh is weak. What im saying is that the JW Organization has roasted and burned tens of thousands if not more of its adherents condemning them in judicial committees and disfellowshippings etc for decades upon decades, spiritually killing many .... lambasting with endless guilt and shame for failing to maintain the qualifications of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Should ALL claiming to love Christ and the Father STRIVE wholeheartedly to mold there life morally according to Scripture and its moral precedent? Absolutely, without question. That would be the loving and wise thing to do. My argument is that NOW, in the interim, until Christ return and the hour of test begins and the subsequent Judgement Day, during this preaching of the kingdom period..... the expectations of the earthly class ARE NOT the same as what is expected from the Chosen Ones. Does that make God love less? For goodness sake, God notices and loves the wee sparrow that falls to the ground. He loves the dogs and cats in our home we cherish. God is love. He loves all living things and human creation. But I do believe His attention "right now" is primarily focused on the actions and outcome of The Chosen. As their conduct and actions definitely give the Devil platform to taunt. How dare these puny humans whom sit on porcelain privys be given immortality before the face of God Himself, something not even the Devil was gifted. The jealousy , anger and rage he will have towards those Chosen will be manifest in the way they are collectively murdered in the final part of the days. I argue it truly shows just how dire and peril of a situation the human race is and for those whom have the earthly hope. Truly, so separated from the Holy One. Yet He yearns to be connected "directly" and intimately with every single one like with Adam in the garden. Unfortunately, as we know, that blessing will not occur till after 1,000 years. So in the interim, the faithful to death Chosen Ones, the 144,000, the bride of Christ,.... I would say are "special", perhaps even more special then the earthly class. If so, that is God's right, if that is the case. But regardless, its a healthy and beautiful thing to clamor for God's love and favortism.....surely He smiles with approval watching, as a tender Father would. And as a Father loves ALL his family, for awhile... only the children will be allowed inside His home. The rest, say the cousins, are outside in the camper RV trailer in the driveway or in the garage, still under His watch and care. Once He's done cleaning house and building more rooms, surely He will then "adopt" everyone as sons and daughters, and they will get to come inside and sit on His lap. But even then, I bet the 144,000 will always get to talk to Dad.... first. (Just my two quarters).

Btw, often times... I write in response off the cuff. I also sometimes write with a form of symbolism. Other times too, I may not properly and eloquently express proper my overall viewpoint and intent because Im thinking overtly analytical. And often, without voice tone and reflection, its hard to relay the ultimate "point trying to be made ". Often times I hope and pray the reader can read between my lines. What I can genuinely say, my intent is not nor ever to be demonstrative, all knowing, condemning, condescending or so matter of fact without considering others feelings. Admittedly, being slightly provocative in expression or viewpoint also helps stimulate robust discussion and helps weed out the inaccuracies and helps vet our beliefs and test for truth. But over everything, all is always expressed with deep brotherly and christ like love. ~ TJC needs to put a new harnass on his horses. And his chariot is getting battered and has worn out wheels).

I don’t think the issue is envy or resistance to hierarchy. Jehovah clearly uses hierarchy and delegated roles throughout creation.

My point is simply that higher assignment does not automatically mean greater love or greater personal value in Jehovah’s eyes.

For example, faithful servants like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah, and John the Baptist never received the heavenly calling according to the traditional understanding, yet Jehovah’s care, closeness, and approval toward them were extraordinary. Moses spoke with Jehovah “face to face” as a man with his friend. Elijah was sustained personally by Jehovah during intense trials. John the Baptist was praised by Jesus as greater than anyone born of women.

I also find it interesting that Moses and Elijah appeared alongside Jesus in the Transfiguration with tremendous honor and dignity. That scene does not give the impression that they were spiritually secondary or less cherished by Jehovah simply because they were not part of the later heavenly calling.

So for me the question is not whether the anointed have a special role. They clearly do. The question is whether that special role means they are more loved or more important to Jehovah than other faithful servants. That is where I think the Bible points more to different assignments than to different value.

Exodus 20 also reminds us that Jehovah requires exclusive devotion, and even angels in Scripture refuse worshipful treatment or excessive reverence directed toward themselves. So I personally try to be careful not to elevate any class of servants in a way that unintentionally creates spiritual aristocracy or favoritism beyond what Scripture actually states.

I fully agree the anointed have a unique Kingdom assignment and authority during Christ’s Millennial reign. But the final picture still seems to be one united family of loyal sons and daughters of God after the restoration is complete.

 

[BibleLover]

I think the core of this subject is ultimately understanding Jehovah’s love.

As humans, we often think of love in limited ways because our own love is limited by time, energy, attention, and emotional capacity. Naturally we may love certain people more because they are closer to us or share a more important role in our life. But Jehovah is not limited like humans are. He is almighty, infinite in capacity, and more importantly, “God is love.”

John 3:16 shows the depth of that love. Jehovah loved the world so much that He gave His Son for mankind. There is no greater expression of love than that. In a smaller way, Abraham’s test also illustrated the depth of love and sacrifice involved.

That is why I personally hesitate when discussions begin framing Jehovah’s love mainly in terms of hierarchy, rank, or favored status. Different roles? Absolutely. Greater authority? Certainly. But greater love or greater cherishing is where I become cautious.

Interestingly, the Bible also shows the problems that arise when favoritism enters a family structure. Jacob’s special affection toward Joseph contributed to jealousy and division among his sons. Of course that does not justify envy, but it does illustrate how partiality among humans can produce unhealthy outcomes.

By contrast, Jehovah repeatedly emphasizes His impartiality.

That is also why I appreciate examples like Moses, Elijah, Abraham, and John the Baptist. According to the traditional understanding they were not part of the heavenly class, yet Jehovah’s closeness, approval, and affection toward them were extraordinary. Jesus even said no one greater than John the Baptist had arisen among those born of women.

So for me, the anointed having a unique Kingdom assignment does not necessarily mean Jehovah loves faithful earthly servants less. It seems more like differing functions within His purpose rather than differing degrees of fatherly love.

And honestly, I think we should be careful not to unconsciously recreate another form of spiritual elitism as we have experienced inside Watchtower Organization. It would be ironic to criticize excessive exaltation of organizational authority while at the same time elevating the anointed into a kind of spiritual aristocracy beyond what Scripture clearly states.

 

[Nomex]

What I question is when hierarchy becomes interpreted as hierarchy of personal value or divine affection.

Oh OK, I see now. Thank you for the clarification. That makes much more sense now.

But I think maybe there is a couple of things you are not considering. For example, why was Jesus the "best person for the job" so to speak? Jehovah had created Jesus first, and clearly Jesus is superior to the rest of creation, Jehovah created a being In Jesus so powerful that his creation created everything. So why Jesus? That is a rhetorical question that none of us can answer fully, only Jehovah could answer that, but we have a good idea.

What I am getting at is do you think there was a chance Jesus was going to fail and give way to sin? I can only guess Jesus had already proven himself to be faithful at least to some degree. I mean, creation I think you could argue is a testament to Jesus faithfulness, however, it had not been tested.

Let me put it another way. If you need to carry out a daring military "commando style raid", you're going to hand pick your best men to carry out the job. You are going to pick your explosive expert, a communications expert, maybe you need a language specialist, etc. The men you pick would have proven themselves to be able to carry out this "suicide mission" against all odds. They will have numerous successful mission behind them, years of experience "in the field", men proven to be of extraordinary integrity. The success of your mission depends on picking the right men. "Many are called few are chosen." Sounds like an excellent advertising slogan. "Many are called few are chosen." Sounds a lot like, the Marine Corps "A Few Good men."

So it has to do with training, experience and ability, and like you said, timing. Think about this; Mary, Jesus mother is going to heaven, but his adoptive father is not? What kind of special place in Jehovah's heart does Joseph hold who raised Jesus as his own son, how does Jehovah feel about him? Have you ever thought about that? When you meditate of all of these things, we certainly come away with more questions than answers, but that is OK. Jehovah is teaching us, and hopefully will continue to do so for eternity.

But I do understand better now where you are coming from!

 

[TheJehuChariot]

I think the core of this subject is ultimately understanding Jehovah’s love.

As humans, we often think of love in limited ways because our own love is limited by time, energy, attention, and emotional capacity. Naturally we may love certain people more because they are closer to us or share a more important role in our life. But Jehovah is not limited like humans are. He is almighty, infinite in capacity, and more importantly, “God is love.”

John 3:16 shows the depth of that love. Jehovah loved the world so much that He gave His Son for mankind. There is no greater expression of love than that. In a smaller way, Abraham’s test also illustrated the depth of love and sacrifice involved.

That is why I personally hesitate when discussions begin framing Jehovah’s love mainly in terms of hierarchy, rank, or favored status. Different roles? Absolutely. Greater authority? Certainly. But greater love or greater cherishing is where I become cautious.

Interestingly, the Bible also shows the problems that arise when favoritism enters a family structure. Jacob’s special affection toward Joseph contributed to jealousy and division among his sons. Of course that does not justify envy, but it does illustrate how partiality among humans can produce unhealthy outcomes.

By contrast, Jehovah repeatedly emphasizes His impartiality.

That is also why I appreciate examples like Moses, Elijah, Abraham, and John the Baptist. According to the traditional understanding they were not part of the heavenly class, yet Jehovah’s closeness, approval, and affection toward them were extraordinary. Jesus even said no one greater than John the Baptist had arisen among those born of women.

So for me, the anointed having a unique Kingdom assignment does not necessarily mean Jehovah loves faithful earthly servants less. It seems more like differing functions within His purpose rather than differing degrees of fatherly love.

And honestly, I think we should be careful not to unconsciously recreate another form of spiritual elitism as we have experienced inside Watchtower Organization. It would be ironic to criticize excessive exaltation of organizational authority while at the same time elevating the anointed into a kind of spiritual aristocracy beyond what Scripture clearly states.

@BibleLover , You have done what your trademark is in that you create a subject out of someone's post, that did not exist. Then, you become relentlessly fixated on beating the same drum until your desired subject becomes the focal point. I find that not only disappointing but also disengenuous and a bit sanctimonious. You deliberately do not acknowledge the original intent and description of my original post via this thread. I never expressed Jehovah loves ones more than others or got overly descriptive about who he shows love to. That is what you did and youve fixated on hierarchy which deflects from what I was originally expressing. That being in regards to the role of the Chosen Ones versus the role of the Great Crowd.

Do you view those of the other sheep whom hold the earthly hope as sons and daughters of God? Are they brothers and sisters of Chrst? Are they crying out "Abba, Father" ? Im not talking about after the 1,000 year reign has concluded when all of humanity is brought into alignment with God. Im talking about NOW. If you dont see the anointed Chosen Ones as being a "Special Possession" like scripture says they are, and that their ROLE and position is more significant and impacting then the other sheep, then theres something in you preventng you. I never said to lift them to a state of reverence, even though they will be above angels. I merely stated their significance in the eyes of God and how scripture primarily apples to them NOW. The JW organization gives there members and adherents too much credit for any role or purpose they might have during the last days. As if videos of Witnesses hiding in bunker videos highlights their worth. I would say the anointed Chosen Ones whom will be martyred to death by the beast for having declared Christ rule is active makes them worthy of a higher honor. You have gone and this about love and hierarchy for some reason personal to you, when the intent of it all was to highlight the "role" the anointed chosen ones play, how serious it is and how the bar set for them is much higher.

 

[BibleLover]

Oh OK, I see now. Thank you for the clarification. That makes much more sense now.

But I think maybe there is a couple of things you are not considering. For example, why was Jesus the "best person for the job" so to speak? Jehovah had created Jesus first, and clearly Jesus is superior to the rest of creation, Jehovah created a being In Jesus so powerful that his creation created everything. So why Jesus? That is a rhetorical question that none of us can answer fully, only Jehovah could answer that, but we have a good idea.

What I am getting at is do you think there was a chance Jesus was going to fail and give way to sin? I can only guess Jesus had already proven himself to be faithful at least to some degree. I mean, creation I think you could argue is a testament to Jesus faithfulness, however, it had not been tested.

Let me put it another way. If you need to carry out a daring military "commando style raid", you're going to hand pick your best men to carry out the job. You are going to pick your explosive expert, a communications expert, maybe you need a language specialist, etc. The men you pick would have proven themselves to be able to carry out this "suicide mission" against all odds. They will have numerous successful mission behind them, years of experience "in the field", men proven to be of extraordinary integrity. The success of your mission depends on picking the right men. "Many are called few are chosen." Sounds like an excellent advertising slogan. "Many are called few are chosen." Sounds a lot like, the Marine Corps "A Few Good men."

So it has to do with training, experience and ability, and like you said, timing. Think about this; Mary, Jesus mother is going to heaven, but his adoptive father is not? What kind of special place in Jehovah's heart does Joseph hold who raised Jesus as his own son, how does Jehovah feel about him? Have you ever thought about that? When you meditate of all of these things, we certainly come away with more questions than answers, but that is OK. Jehovah is teaching us, and hopefully will continue to do so for eternity.

But I do understand better now where you are coming from!

I think your example about Joseph is actually very profound and highlights exactly what I was trying to express.

Joseph may not have received the heavenly calling according to the traditional understanding, yet imagine the trust Jehovah placed in him: raising and protecting His own Son. That alone says something extraordinary about the kind of man Joseph was and the affection Jehovah must have had for him.

The same feeling comes to mind with John the Baptist, Moses, Elijah, Abraham, and others. Their role may have differed from the anointed Kingdom assignment, but it is difficult to imagine Jehovah viewing them as somehow less precious or less meaningful to Him.

Your military analogy also helped me see your point better. Certain missions require specially selected individuals with unique assignments and responsibilities. But being chosen for a specific mission does not necessarily mean the commander loves the rest of his loyal men less. It reflects role and purpose.

So I think we may actually agree more than it first appeared. The anointed clearly have a unique and extraordinary role, especially during Christ’s Millennial reign. I just personally see Jehovah’s love as ultimately much broader and less limited by role or rank than humans sometimes imagine.

 

[BagdadBill]

I've mentioned this a few times but, even as a kid I would hear people talk about going to heaven and although I never mentioned it, even then I had an understanding that man's place was on earth. When I was married I had a good father in law. We would have private discussions. He explained to me that the bible was written to kings, rulers and high priests but meant for everyone. When Jehovah gave men the command to teach their children to read it was so they would know his ways and expectations.
When I studied with JWs I never felt slighted that there was a different group who seemingly are in a higher class than myself. Here is why:
Adam and Eve were placed here on earth by God to be a completely different species than he had created before. Meant to be permanent and live forever. As I explain to non-JW, God never told Adam that if he were a good boy that he would get the E ticket and go on up to the sky.
But what about the little flock? Why wouldn't I feel bad about not being chosen for that?
First, if I were worthy and there were room it might be different. Do you ever wonder if any of the anointed ever asked Jehovah if they could stay on Earth?
I would definitely ask. Kneejerk to that is, how would you dare. I like being human. As far as I know there are no other humans anywhere else in the universe.
We are told we are lower than the angels (in ranking) but are we? I seem to recall some naughty angels who couldn't wait take on human form and take our women.
You can't get away from the main point and that is, God or Jesus with God's power, created us intentionally and specifically. That is pretty special if you ask me.

Let me pour some kerosene on that. When angels came to visit Abraham, he wanted to feed them and show hospitality. Angels don't know food. They don't need food. I'm sure they could taste it or some approximation but we get hunger pangs if we don't eat. Food sustains us but we also have to work for it. We are tied to the land that grows our food that keeps us alive.
That connection is something they don't really have. Not in the same way we do. When we build homes it's because we need shelter.
We aren't some second hand idea or leftovers. The human body is a living miracle and most of all, Jehovah entrusted us to procreate and build families. Something even the good angels likely envy at least a little. God did not short change us. He gave us our own station in the universe that is unique to us.