The Hard Truth

[MickHewitt]

I've mentioned this a few times but, even as a kid I would hear people talk about going to heaven and although I never mentioned it, even then I had an understanding that man's place was on earth. When I was married I had a good father in law. We would have private discussions. He explained to me that the bible was written to kings, rulers and high priests but meant for everyone. When Jehovah gave men the command to teach their children to read it was so they would know his ways and expectations.
When I studied with JWs I never felt slighted that there was a different group who seemingly are in a higher class than myself. Here is why:
Adam and Eve were placed here on earth by God to be a completely different species than he had created before. Meant to be permanent and live forever. As I explain to non-JW, God never told Adam that if he were a good boy that he would get the E ticket and go on up to the sky.
But what about the little flock? Why wouldn't I feel bad about not being chosen for that?
First, if I were worthy and there were room it might be different. Do you ever wonder if any of the anointed ever asked Jehovah if they could stay on Earth?
I would definitely ask. Kneejerk to that is, how would you dare. I like being human. As far as I know there are no other humans anywhere else in the universe.
We are told we are lower than the angels (in ranking) but are we? I seem to recall some naughty angels who couldn't wait take on human form and take our women.
You can't get away from the main point and that is, God or Jesus with God's power, created us intentionally and specifically. That is pretty special if you ask me.

Let me pour some kerosene on that. When angels came to visit Abraham, he wanted to feed them and show hospitality. Angels don't know food. They don't need food. I'm sure they could taste it or some approximation but we get hunger pangs if we don't eat. Food sustains us but we also have to work for it. We are tied to the land that grows our food that keeps us alive.
That connection is something they don't really have. Not in the same way we do. When we build homes it's because we need shelter.
We aren't some second hand idea or leftovers. The human body is a living miracle and most of all, Jehovah entrusted us to procreate and build families. Something even the good angels likely envy at least a little. God did not short change us. He gave us our own station in the universe that is unique to us.

Yeah: Jehovah knows where's best for us to serve Him; His will be done.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

I don’t think the issue is envy or resistance to hierarchy. Jehovah clearly uses hierarchy and delegated roles throughout creation.

My point is simply that higher assignment does not automatically mean greater love or greater personal value in Jehovah’s eyes.

For example, faithful servants like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah, and John the Baptist never received the heavenly calling according to the traditional understanding, yet Jehovah’s care, closeness, and approval toward them were extraordinary. Moses spoke with Jehovah “face to face” as a man with his friend. Elijah was sustained personally by Jehovah during intense trials. John the Baptist was praised by Jesus as greater than anyone born of women.

I also find it interesting that Moses and Elijah appeared alongside Jesus in the Transfiguration with tremendous honor and dignity. That scene does not give the impression that they were spiritually secondary or less cherished by Jehovah simply because they were not part of the later heavenly calling.

So for me the question is not whether the anointed have a special role. They clearly do. The question is whether that special role means they are more loved or more important to Jehovah than other faithful servants. That is where I think the Bible points more to different assignments than to different value.

Exodus 20 also reminds us that Jehovah requires exclusive devotion, and even angels in Scripture refuse worshipful treatment or excessive reverence directed toward themselves. So I personally try to be careful not to elevate any class of servants in a way that unintentionally creates spiritual aristocracy or favoritism beyond what Scripture actually states.

I fully agree the anointed have a unique Kingdom assignment and authority during Christ’s Millennial reign. But the final picture still seems to be one united family of loyal sons and daughters of God after the restoration is complete.

There are in fact, degrees within the completed sense of love. The prime example is that Jehovah sacrificed the greatest and primary expression of His love in the form of Jesus. Can that be surpassed by anyone? I would imagine that sense of love to only be matched by the degree of sorrow caused to Jehovah by satan. One must somehow compare the first creation of all life with the machinations of men who threw away perfection on a whim of curiosity and greed.

I’m not sure it is wisdom on our part to measure the expression of love in human terms because for the singular fact that we experience only the human form of it. We are part of creation, not the maker of it. We can only be ‘less than’ for that very reason, just as Jehovah has stated: who is there that can bless me? There is no one above me.

As for exclusive devotion - this is by act alone built upon the dubious understanding and loyalties of men that are stretched in every way by the satanic system in which we find ourselves. Our devotion, such as it is, is first aided and ‘excused’ to a degree by the ransom of Christ for those that seek it, and our only pathway to life is through the blood of Christ. It reminds me of when Christ tried the insight of his followers by telling them they must eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. That really puts into perspective, how ill informed we are of our own needs and the degree of introspection we require into our understanding of the fruits of the Spirit.

We are very much mimicking Thomas in his need to be reassured - and this is allowed for by Christ’s understanding of our needs, but the rule still applies in that those whom have the insight do not require such reassurance. They have faith. Thus there are degrees of understanding that we are advised to acquire for ourselves. And if there are degrees of understanding, then there are degrees of love, faith, sacrifice, and spiritual insight.

It’s not simply acknowledging our needs, but the depth of meaning and thus their application. As far as our friends are concerned we can only be equal with them, but to acknowledge within ourselves that we may be residing with spirituality above our own - so that requires of us, rather than them, insight into matters of equality towards everyone. Those opposed soon make themselves known, and that may require insight of our own understanding to deal with.

I’m not convinced that the arrangement of Jehovah is a hierarchy but a system of perfection. Love as a passion, has degrees within its application. We see this in our society. Hierarchy denotes power within authority - but there is only one authority. Jehovah. If love is the basis of all the attributes, then society will regulate itself according to those ethics. Independence within that broadband would be in agreement. Call it what we will, depth of understanding is the law of perfection - guidance is its asset. Does that require a hierarchy when agreement is already established? Maybe for the first thousand years.

 

[BibleLover]

One aspect that keeps coming to my mind is Jehovah’s justice.

If the heavenly calling meant that the anointed are inherently worthier or more loved than other faithful servants, then difficult questions seem to arise regarding faithful people who lived before Christ.

Jesus said that among those born of women no one greater had arisen than John the Baptist. Yet according to the traditional understanding, John would not receive the heavenly calling simply because he lived before the new covenant was opened.

That almost leads to an ironic conclusion:

“John, perhaps you should not have risked your life confronting Herod’s adultery. You should have simply waited a few more years so you could qualify for the heavenly calling.”

Or:

“Moses, Elijah, Daniel, Jeremiah… unfortunately you were simply born too early.”

Of course, none of us truly believe that. Which is exactly why I personally think the heavenly calling is more about assignment and role within Jehovah’s purpose rather than superior worth or greater divine affection.

Otherwise, difficult questions about Jehovah’s justice and impartiality seem to arise.

The anointed clearly have a unique Kingdom assignment and responsibility. But Scripture itself rarely says Jehovah loves them more than other faithful servants. In fact, many passages about the anointed emphasize responsibility, endurance, sacrifice, and service more than superiority.

That understanding helps me reconcile Jesus’ praise for John the Baptist together with Jehovah’s justice, impartiality, and love.

 

[TheJehuChariot]

Maybe for the first thousand years.

Thank you for this line right here. That there is the entire point. If you look at my most recent comment which @BibleLover conveniently ignored, you will notice i had expressed the original intent of this thread was never to discuss who was loved more by God or the hierarchy significance. What it was focusing on was the major significant difference in roles between the Chosen Ones and the Other Sheep / Great Crowd. I wont rehash or repeat my last comment, but your line above is most applicable.

 

[TheJehuChariot]

Which is exactly why I personally think the heavenly calling is more about assignment and role within Jehovah’s purpose rather than superior worth or greater divine

You obviously believe that all of the other sheep and great crowd are viewed as "sons and daughters" by the Most High prior to the end of the thousand years and that they are also "brothers and sisters" of Christ.

Once again, you are "fixated" on love and rank... ignoring the original intent of this thread. It would be more Christian of you to start your own thread pertaining your own subject of "love and rank" since that is what you are fixated on, rather than lovingly acknowledging the intent and subject matter of this original post that was primarily addressing roles. You have deliberately polluted this thread and that is noted.

 

[Nomex]

rather than lovingly acknowledging the intent and subject matter of this original post that was primarily addressing roles. You have deliberately polluted this thread and that is noted.

He really has derailed this thread. It seems he has a real problem letting stuff go. It's impossible for him to simply make his point and let it stand no, that is not good enough. He just keeps bringing it back making it difficult to address your intended topic. I have two kids, a boy and a girl, and I think like most men, you tend to gravitate more toward your son. I have actually been confronted in my own mind, about the difference between that love. It is not that I love one more than the other, it is just different. Like love for your wife is different, and love for your friends.

What it seems to indicate to me is a severe lack of self confidence. Personally I don't care. No, rather, I am glad I do not have the burden the Anointed have! No thanks! Too hard! So I'm perfectly fine if Jehovah see's more worth with them, I couldn't care less! I'm perfectly OK just to make it! And you better believe they are going to earn their position. Take for example when Jesus asked Peter about carrying the torture stake, and Peter was like "heck yeah I'll die for you", then he denies Jesus, yes repents and he indeed was martyred, but what they went through was no picnic...not that I am expecting it to be a picnic for us either, but that is enough of a burden for me as it is!

It reminds though of what they say about people who want power, they're NEVER the person who should be in power, always the opposite, and it brings to mind why Jehovah picked Moses, "the meekest man on the earth." Moses didn't want it, and when you read what the Israelite's put him through, you can't blame him. LOL I wonder how many times Moses thought to himself, "these people are going to be the death of me." Little did he know!

But somebody had to do it.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Thank you for this line right here. That there is the entire point. If you look at my most recent comment which @BibleLover conveniently ignored, you will notice i had expressed the original intent of this thread was never to discuss who was loved more by God or the hierarchy significance. What it was focusing on was the major significant difference in roles between the Chosen Ones and the Other Sheep / Great Crowd. I wont rehash or repeat my last comment, but your line above is most applicable.

I agree, though in principle one must understand that some are heavily influenced by the regime that watchtower imposes, which reminds me somewhat of O.J. Simpson and his glove. People are bound to try to make their life experience fit the heavenly role because thinking outside the box is not for them. Let’s face it. None of us really understand the dimensions of Jehovah’s existence - yet the anointing conveys a completely different dimension to one’s thinking - but in my opinion at least, it’s not a hierarchy but the degree of insight and understanding given them. Certainly some may see that as a ‘managerial role’ given the applied inference that watchtower attach to it, but we know it as ‘love’ and the responsibility of it that comes with it.

There is no requirement for a hierarchy through which control must be exerted because the expression of love is equality, not governance. The interpretation of love requires absorption of its intent above that of its application. In other words its expression comes from the heart, not a sense of duty. Thus its interpretation as Jehovah intended it in its expression is one of understanding its application, its pith, is the reasoning of the heart. Thus we “reflect” the love of Jehovah because our creation IS the love of Jehovah. This is where our independence lies within us as a self regulating sense of “what happens” in that our life is part of Jehovah, expressed just as assuredly through flesh, as it is in the Spirit of the angels.

At least this is what we hope to obtain through refinement of understanding through the one thousand years.

But we must bear in mind that the love of Jehovah to the anointed is the immediacy of this gift. Is this not why they are invited though the element of Spirit, to understand this matter? If they are chosen to represent this singular and dominant aspect of our God Jehovah, it is signal of their absorption of the Spirit. Moses, Elijah et alia, had it given them and what was their role if not subservient to Jehovah’s will to carry it out for His glory. And is this not the level of absorption of the Spirit that we all seek? So is it subservient, or is it equality in the union of understanding of the attributes of love?

This then is the glory of the arrangement - unity within the spirit. The unbreakable bond of understanding of perfection within Jehovah. That’s a lot to achieve in a thousand years but it is one of growth in heart and understanding, and that growth comes outward from within the heart, drawn out, cultivated, given meaning, application until we become its expression. Is our reward then not equal to all whom dwell with Jehovah? Within that sphere, we are then free to live our lives.

Robert mentioned (if I recall correctly) some time back that maybe those anointed and given life within themselves may be able to carry forward the exclusivity of creation for themselves. Well, is that not true of all whom serve Jehovah - the extent of our abilities may be only within us, but for the anointed to create outwardly of themselves is an aspect of unity within purpose. A sharing. But in the earthly role, will we earthbound ones not have sufficient for ourselves? We are complete within ourselves.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Thank you for this line right here. That there is the entire point. If you look at my most recent comment which @BibleLover conveniently ignored, you will notice i had expressed the original intent of this thread was never to discuss who was loved more by God or the hierarchy significance. What it was focusing on was the major significant difference in roles between the Chosen Ones and the Other Sheep / Great Crowd. I wont rehash or repeat my last comment, but your line above is most applicable.

“never to discuss who was loved more by God or the hierarchy significance.”
Sorry, I forgot to address your point here in my reply - above. You are of course absolutely correct: love is a standard complete in its concept. It is just as Jehovah said, the one attribute that governs all others, and as such there are no ‘degrees’ within that standard - but applications. There is a difference. If there were not applications in expression, then love could not be the standard by which all other attributes of Jehovah are applied. That would lead to impartiality. Therefore the understanding of love is a law, defined, not gratuitous and without variation. Thus how it is applied and expressed in delivery, (expression) is evidenced through the application of all other laws of Jehovah - also equally understood. Thus we can have mercy along with justice because love has consideration of all things. There is a scripture that describes this a whole lot better. Love “Believes all things, hopes all things….never fails.”

 

[TheJehuChariot]

He really has derailed this thread. It seems he has a real problem letting stuff go. It's impossible for him to simply make his point and let it stand no, that is not good enough. He just keeps bringing it back making it difficult to address your intended topic. I have two kids, a boy and a girl, and I think like most men, you tend to gravitate more toward your son. I have actually been confronted in my own mind, about the difference between that love. It is not that I love one more than the other, it is just different. Like love for your wife is different, and love for your friends.

What it seems to indicate to me is a severe lack of self confidence. Personally I don't care. No, rather, I am glad I do not have the burden the Anointed have! No thanks! Too hard! So I'm perfectly fine if Jehovah see's more worth with them, I couldn't care less! I'm perfectly OK just to make it! And you better believe they are going to earn their position. Take for example when Jesus asked Peter about carrying the torture stake, and Peter was like "heck yeah I'll die for you", then he denies Jesus, yes repents and he indeed was martyred, but what they went through was no picnic...not that I am expecting it to be a picnic for us either, but that is enough of a burden for me as it is!

It reminds though of what they say about people who want power, they're NEVER the person who should be in power, always the opposite, and it brings to mind why Jehovah picked Moses, "the meekest man on the earth." Moses didn't want it, and when you read what the Israelite's put him through, you can't blame him. LOL I wonder how many times Moses thought to himself, "these people are going to be the death of me." Little did he know!

But somebody had to do it.

Nomex, thats what I love about you. You're like Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon. You're crazy, but good at what you do and make one hell of a partner! Love ya Brother!

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

He really has derailed this thread. It seems he has a real problem letting stuff go. It's impossible for him to simply make his point and let it stand no, that is not good enough. He just keeps bringing it back making it difficult to address your intended topic. I have two kids, a boy and a girl, and I think like most men, you tend to gravitate more toward your son. I have actually been confronted in my own mind, about the difference between that love. It is not that I love one more than the other, it is just different. Like love for your wife is different, and love for your friends.

What it seems to indicate to me is a severe lack of self confidence. Personally I don't care. No, rather, I am glad I do not have the burden the Anointed have! No thanks! Too hard! So I'm perfectly fine if Jehovah see's more worth with them, I couldn't care less! I'm perfectly OK just to make it! And you better believe they are going to earn their position. Take for example when Jesus asked Peter about carrying the torture stake, and Peter was like "heck yeah I'll die for you", then he denies Jesus, yes repents and he indeed was martyred, but what they went through was no picnic...not that I am expecting it to be a picnic for us either, but that is enough of a burden for me as it is!

It reminds though of what they say about people who want power, they're NEVER the person who should be in power, always the opposite, and it brings to mind why Jehovah picked Moses, "the meekest man on the earth." Moses didn't want it, and when you read what the Israelite's put him through, you can't blame him. LOL I wonder how many times Moses thought to himself, "these people are going to be the death of me." Little did he know!

But somebody had to do it.

The love for a son and daughter is actually no different - as you would find out if it was ever tested. What concerns you is actually preference, not love - the company of a son, companionship, a hope for the future to carry the name, and for you to pass on your personality and values. He is seemingly part of you moreso than your daughter as she will belong to someone else. If your dear daughter ever has a son, you will find the same feelings though. The problem resolves itself when the son gets married and you find yourself relegated to being the ol’ man and resented for handing out advice past its sell-by date. So don’t feel bad about it - love is not partial as the bible says and when put to the test, we find that to be true. When the new order is here and death resolved, the inheritance and legacy will be a chain, not a pit.

As for our contender, it’s not so much a lack of personal confidence, but of depth. We have all been there at some point. Understanding is not given until it’s asked for, prayed for and responded to and it is only when one lets go of watchtower and puts faith in the Bible that one gets to lean upon Jehovah. We progress from quoting it to living by it. It’s not easy to let go when you think that some people have put their whole life into watchtower, their resources, time and income. When one has experienced unfaithfulness, it’s a lesson hard to forget: who does not wish to return to the place of safety? That is why understanding the Word is critical because then faith can be placed in the one that is always faithful. It’s hard for people, so we have to extend patience until they make their choice.

 

[BibleLover]

I think one of the deeper issues behind this discussion is that humans naturally tend to associate role, authority, or status with worth and value. People often feel more important when they hold power, titles, or positions of recognition. That tendency exists everywhere in society.

For example, during the COVID period, many people automatically dismissed doctors who questioned the official narrative as “conspiracy theorists” without even examining the evidence they presented. Most simply trusted the doctors with the highest institutional positions or the greatest media visibility.

The same dynamic can happen in religion. Within the JW organization, many instinctively place greater weight on the opinion of an elder than that of a simple publisher. Likewise, if someone expresses an understanding different from the Governing Body, they are often quickly labeled “apostate” rather than people carefully examining the actual reasoning or scriptures being presented. The case of brother King is a good example. Some brothers benefited from his publications, yet many elders simply dismissed him with a label instead of analyzing what he actually wrote.

Even with the Memorial emblems, if someone partakes who is not viewed as spiritually prominent, many immediately assume mental imbalance rather than sincerely considering the matter. That again reflects how humans often equate visible role with spiritual legitimacy.

But when we examine Scripture, many of Jehovah’s most beloved servants were not kings, rulers, or organizational leaders.

Jeremiah was not a king. He was rejected, imprisoned, and even accused of defecting to Babylon (Jeremiah 37:13-14). Yet Jehovah deeply loved and approved of him.

Elijah was hunted and isolated.

John the Baptist lived in the wilderness, was imprisoned, and eventually executed. Yet Jesus said: Among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist.” (Matthew 11:11).

That statement is extremely important to me because according to the traditional understanding, John would not receive the heavenly calling simply because he lived before the new covenant was opened. So are we really going to conclude that Jehovah viewed him as less worthy or less loved than later disciples who would go to heaven? Surely not.

That is why I personally believe the heavenly calling is primarily about role and assignment within Jehovah’s purpose, not proof of superior worth or greater divine affection.

The wording of the question:

“Would it seem fair that the latter class … are set to the same standard of expectation when their reward is far less in equivalence?”

also reveals an important assumption — namely that earthly life is somehow a lesser reward. But earthly life was Jehovah’s original purpose for humanity from Eden onward.

So perhaps the difference is not about one group being more valuable than another, but about different functions within God’s purpose at different times.

Scripture repeatedly shows that Jehovah does not measure value the same way humans do. Humans are often impressed by rank, visibility, and authority. But Jehovah consistently values humility, faithfulness, courage, endurance, and sincerity — even in those rejected, overlooked, or misunderstood by human institutions.

 

[Nomex]

You're crazy, but good at what you do and make one hell of a partner!

I'm the son in Jesus parable, who when the father asks me to do something, I'm the one who said "No", but did it it anyway (while complaining to myself the whole time). What you don't know is the back story. My brother always says yes, but never does it, it's always me that ends up doing it! So, I know if I don't do it, it's not gonna get done. It's not that I want to, it's more like I don't have a choice, it's "my duty." LOL. Poor me!!! HAHA!

 

[TheJehuChariot]

also reveals an important assumption — namely that earthly life is somehow a lesser reward. But earthly life was Jehovah’s original purpose for humanity from Eden onward.

The fact that you would equate living on earth as "equivalent" to living in immediate presence of The Ancient of Days and The Holy One clothed with immortality says everything about you, and some.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

I think one of the deeper issues behind this discussion is that humans naturally tend to associate role, authority, or status with worth and value. People often feel more important when they hold power, titles, or positions of recognition. That tendency exists everywhere in society.

For example, during the COVID period, many people automatically dismissed doctors who questioned the official narrative as “conspiracy theorists” without even examining the evidence they presented. Most simply trusted the doctors with the highest institutional positions or the greatest media visibility.

The same dynamic can happen in religion. Within the JW organization, many instinctively place greater weight on the opinion of an elder than that of a simple publisher. Likewise, if someone expresses an understanding different from the Governing Body, they are often quickly labeled “apostate” rather than people carefully examining the actual reasoning or scriptures being presented. The case of brother King is a good example. Some brothers benefited from his publications, yet many elders simply dismissed him with a label instead of analyzing what he actually wrote.

Even with the Memorial emblems, if someone partakes who is not viewed as spiritually prominent, many immediately assume mental imbalance rather than sincerely considering the matter. That again reflects how humans often equate visible role with spiritual legitimacy.

But when we examine Scripture, many of Jehovah’s most beloved servants were not kings, rulers, or organizational leaders.

Jeremiah was not a king. He was rejected, imprisoned, and even accused of defecting to Babylon (Jeremiah 37:13-14). Yet Jehovah deeply loved and approved of him.

Elijah was hunted and isolated.

John the Baptist lived in the wilderness, was imprisoned, and eventually executed. Yet Jesus said: Among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist.” (Matthew 11:11).

That statement is extremely important to me because according to the traditional understanding, John would not receive the heavenly calling simply because he lived before the new covenant was opened. So are we really going to conclude that Jehovah viewed him as less worthy or less loved than later disciples who would go to heaven? Surely not.

That is why I personally believe the heavenly calling is primarily about role and assignment within Jehovah’s purpose, not proof of superior worth or greater divine affection.

The wording of the question:



also reveals an important assumption — namely that earthly life is somehow a lesser reward. But earthly life was Jehovah’s original purpose for humanity from Eden onward.

So perhaps the difference is not about one group being more valuable than another, but about different functions within God’s purpose at different times.

Scripture repeatedly shows that Jehovah does not measure value the same way humans do. Humans are often impressed by rank, visibility, and authority. But Jehovah consistently values humility, faithfulness, courage, endurance, and sincerity — even in those rejected, overlooked, or misunderstood by human institutions.

“That statement is extremely important to me because according to the traditional understanding, John would not receive the heavenly calling simply because he lived before the new covenant was opened. So are we really going to conclude that Jehovah viewed him as less worthy or less loved than later disciples who would go to heaven? Surely not.”

This is where one really must examine the scripture. It is largely the issue that @JehuChariot is pointing out - “traditional understanding”. Traditional understanding is irrelevant to the truth as the truth is a stand-alone concept of perfection. It matters not what generations have pinned to it, for it is the context of it, the meaning of the arrangement, and the truth, of not only equality within Jehovah, but of purpose.

It is not dissimilar to the illustration of Jesus that he set before his “followers” “…..unless you drink of my blood and eat of my flesh you will not enter the kingdom of my father.”

@TheJehuChariot noted “were the children of the first century Christian’s baptised as children? Were they automatically rewarded with the heavenly hope”.

The fact of the matter was that the solution to Satan's rebellion (and lies) was decided at Eden and thus the time and events allotted to it, along with its meaning. What stood in the way was justice, rather than revenge, and justice by the law of Jehovah must be seen to be done, and not only done, but the issue proven beyond doubt.

“Beyond doubt” is a critical substance of justice, thus Christ first had to be tested on the same principle as satan - did he not? But that was not all, because along with that, was the proof required that a given number of humans too would have their own volition, in service to Jehovah tested and likewise prove loyal unto death. Their death then, to my logic anyway - and that’s all it is - would not be valid until the point of perfect servitude under the law was proven by the highest authority - Jesus - the very offspring of the Creator. One cannot put the cart before the horse can they? The law is the law even to the son of Jehovah. Jesus had to make the perfect sacrifice of perfect life remaining loyal to Jehovah.

Insofar as the timespan before the death of Christ, It is useful to put the parable of the talents in focus - whether that is in context I know not, but to me it is. The reward for service was equal to the effort put in to the multiplying in value of that which was given them. No matter the reward, the only one who lost out was the one whom did nothing. Therein is your/our lesson in values. Thus…

How could those who came before the sacrifice take advantage of it? That is the question being asked. And it needs no answer. As for baptism; to what would they be baptised? Without the preceding evidences in the Bible such as Christ’s forebears that prove Christ’s legitimacy, how would Christ be accepted as the messiah before the sacrifice was proven completed, by not only mankind, and his descendants but also the heavenly host and satan along with them?

You question the value of John the Baptist’s sacrifice in terms of worthiness. “Worthiness” is not the issue and does not demand reward. Everyone that gives his life for Jehovah is “worthy” but a certain reward is not a guarantee. In fact, it should not be expected at all because service to Jehovah is a joy in itself. Therein is its reward. To serve for reward defeats the value of acknowledgment. Regardless the only reward is life is it not? One must first have life to enjoy anything. It’s a reward in itself, not a position of authority. It’s certainly not status, because each one whom fulfils his given position first, in life, is only then worthy of it. Worthiness/perfection - it’s the same thing and perfection means “to fulfil the purpose for which it is intended.” Those whom lived before the event of Christ, fulfilled their role within that time and purpose, not for some future event, untried, and untested. Therefore the arrangement is Just. Justice/reward can not be rendered before the event can it? That would be without foundation and thus open to challenge.

Thus the discussion is about the remedy to satan and the justification of the law and authority of Eden. Thus John was worthy to the law of principle stated at Eden, not to the gifts that came with sacrifice in the remedy of Christ to establish the rights of Jehovah to dictate what is law. No one is being short-changed, unrewarded or above one another, but in the rightful dispensation of law according to their birth. That reeks of perfection and equality within the part played by these ones. It is both timely and fitting. Why should one seek a role outside of that which is given, or made available to them, even when they were not alive at the time of its institution?

Your point then is one of your own values and which is understandable, but we must accept Jehovah as being impartial as the Bible states, and not partial. So John was not “less than” in worthiness, and will receive his just reward. You will have to ask him yourself if he feels hard done by - and his answer will undoubtably be one of full gratitude to Jehovah. Is life itself not sufficient? How can service to Jehovah be less important dependant upon position when even a sparrow falling to earth is noticed? Why should we be viewed as “less than” in a perfect creation of which we are all a part?

Thus @Tink ‘s point about baptism seems perfectly reasonable. Baptism is of the heart, as is position within the heart of the arrangement. We must accept the universal application of love as the whole and entire principle, rather than a position of favour. The angels applauded our creation, they desire our form of life, but they would not forsake their position for it. That should be true of us too. As @JehuChariot points out, most are not baptised with meaning in these days or will be and we can not get baptised with meaning in watchtower either. This must have been foreseen in that now we can only seek a meaningful baptism within our heart.

 

[TheJehuChariot]

“That statement is extremely important to me because according to the traditional understanding, John would not receive the heavenly calling simply because he lived before the new covenant was opened. So are we really going to conclude that Jehovah viewed him as less worthy or less loved than later disciples who would go to heaven? Surely not.”

This is where one really must examine the scripture. It is largely the issue that @JehuChariot is pointing out - “traditional understanding”. Traditional understanding is irrelevant to the truth as the truth is a stand-alone concept of perfection. It matters not what generations have pinned to it, for it is the context of it, the meaning of the arrangement, and the truth, of not only equality within Jehovah, but of purpose.

It is not dissimilar to the illustration of Jesus that he set before his “followers” “…..unless you drink of my blood and eat of my flesh you will not enter the kingdom of my father.”

@TheJehuChariot noted “were the children of the first century Christian’s baptised as children? Were they automatically rewarded with the heavenly hope”.

The fact of the matter was that the solution to Satan's rebellion (and lies) was decided at Eden and thus the time and events allotted to it, along with its meaning. What stood in the way was justice, rather than revenge, and justice by the law of Jehovah must be seen to be done, and not only done, but the issue proven beyond doubt.

“Beyond doubt” is a critical substance of justice, thus Christ first had to be tested on the same principle as satan - did he not? But that was not all, because along with that, was the proof required that a given number of humans too would have their own volition, in service to Jehovah tested and likewise prove loyal unto death. Their death then, to my logic anyway - and that’s all it is - would not be valid until the point of perfect servitude under the law was proven by the highest authority - Jesus - the very offspring of the Creator. One cannot put the cart before the horse can they? The law is the law even to the son of Jehovah. Jesus had to make the perfect sacrifice of perfect life remaining loyal to Jehovah.

Insofar as the timespan before the death of Christ, It is useful to put the parable of the talents in focus - whether that is in context I know not, but to me it is. The reward for service was equal to the effort put in to the multiplying in value of that which was given them. No matter the reward, the only one who lost out was the one whom did nothing. Therein is your/our lesson in values. Thus…

How could those who came before the sacrifice take advantage of it? That is the question being asked. And it needs no answer. As for baptism; to what would they be baptised? Without the preceding evidences in the Bible such as Christ’s forebears that prove Christ’s legitimacy, how would Christ be accepted as the messiah before the sacrifice was proven completed, by not only mankind, and his descendants but also the heavenly host and satan along with them?

You question the value of John the Baptist’s sacrifice in terms of worthiness. “Worthiness” is not the issue and does not demand reward. Everyone that gives his life for Jehovah is “worthy” but a certain reward is not a guarantee. In fact, it should not be expected at all because service to Jehovah is a joy in itself. Therein is its reward. To serve for reward defeats the value of acknowledgment. Regardless the only reward is life is it not? One must first have life to enjoy anything. It’s a reward in itself, not a position of authority. It’s certainly not status, because each one whom fulfils his given position first, in life, is only then worthy of it. Worthiness/perfection - it’s the same thing and perfection means “to fulfil the purpose for which it is intended.” Those whom lived before the event of Christ, fulfilled their role within that time and purpose, not for some future event, untried, and untested. Therefore the arrangement is Just. Justice/reward can not be rendered before the event can it? That would be without foundation and thus open to challenge.

Thus the discussion is about the remedy to satan and the justification of the law and authority of Eden. Thus John was worthy to the law of principle stated at Eden, not to the gifts that came with sacrifice in the remedy of Christ to establish the rights of Jehovah to dictate what is law. No one is being short-changed, unrewarded or above one another, but in the rightful dispensation of law according to their birth. That reeks of perfection and equality within the part played by these ones. It is both timely and fitting. Why should one seek a role outside of that which is given, or made available to them, even when they were not alive at the time of its institution?

Your point then is one of your own values and which is understandable, but we must accept Jehovah as being impartial as the Bible states, and not partial. So John was not “less than” in worthiness, and will receive his just reward. You will have to ask him yourself if he feels hard done by - and his answer will undoubtably be one of full gratitude to Jehovah. Is life itself not sufficient? How can service to Jehovah be less important dependant upon position when even a sparrow falling to earth is noticed? Why should we be viewed as “less than” in a perfect creation of which we are all a part?

Thus @Tink ‘s point about baptism seems perfectly reasonable. Baptism is of the heart, as is position within the heart of the arrangement. We must accept the universal application of love as the whole and entire principle, rather than a position of favour. The angels applauded our creation, they desire our form of life, but they would not forsake their position for it. That should be true of us too. As @JehuChariot points out, most are not baptised with meaning in these days or will be and we can not get baptised with meaning in watchtower either. This must have been foreseen in that now we can only seek a meaningful baptism within our heart.

Thank you Burt, for this most comprehensive, substantive and thoughtful post. And thank you for acknowledging and accentuating with your wisdom the original intent of this threads topic. Much Philia ~ TJC.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Thank you Burt, for this most comprehensive, substantive and thoughtful post. And thank you for acknowledging and accentuating with your wisdom the original intent of this threads topic. Much Philia ~ TJC.

We all search along our pathway. It’s no good trying to squeeze watchtower into something it’s not. We must all look anew.

 

[BibleLover]

I think the illustration of the talents is actually very important in this discussion because it helps clarify the difference between assignment and personal worth.

In the parable, the master gives different amounts to each servant: five talents, two talents, and one talent. Importantly, the master himself decides the assignment:
“to each according to his own ability.”

The focus of the illustration is not which servant received the greater responsibility, but whether each servant proved faithful with what was entrusted to him.

The servant with two talents received the exact same approval as the servant with five:

“Well done, good and faithful servant.”

So the value of the servant was not determined by the size of the assignment, but by faithfulness in fulfilling it. That principle harmonizes beautifully with Jehovah’s justice.

Throughout history, Jehovah has given different roles to different servants: apostles, prophets, teachers, shepherds, those rendering “helpful services,” those with “abilities to direct.” Interestingly, in 1 Corinthians 12:28 Paul says:

“God has appointed in the congregation first apostles, second prophets, third teachers… then gifts of healings, helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues.”

As brother King mentioned in another thread, it is interesting that Paul does not mention overseers or ministerial servants. Moreover, Paul’s emphasis is not prestige or superiority, but how different functions contribute to one body. In fact, the entire chapter argues against one member viewing himself as more important than another.

The eye cannot say to the hand:

“I have no need of you.”

That is a powerful principle.

Likewise, faithful servants before Christ such as John the Baptist, Moses, Jeremiah, or Elijah fulfilled the assignment Jehovah entrusted to them in their own time.

Jesus himself said regarding John:

“Among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist.”

So clearly Jehovah’s approval and love cannot simply be measured by whether someone receives a heavenly or earthly assignment.

The heavenly calling may involve a unique role within Jehovah’s purpose, just as apostles or prophets had unique roles. But role is not the same as worth.

Otherwise we would have to conclude that John the Baptist somehow became “less valuable” simply because he lived before the new covenant opened — which would contradict both Jesus’ words and Jehovah’s justice.

Jesus also said regarding his followers:

“I have other sheep… and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:16)

The direction of the passage is toward unification, not permanent spiritual stratification or existential inequality.

The image Jesus chooses is not separate castes, competing levels of worth, or spiritual aristocracy. It is one flock

Different assignments can exist within perfect unity — just as different members exist within one body. And Jehovah, being perfectly just, evaluates each servant according to faithfulness, not according to whether their assignment appears more exalted in human eyes.

 

[Goldie]

I think the illustration of the talents is actually very important in this discussion because it helps clarify the difference between assignment and personal worth.

In the parable, the master gives different amounts to each servant: five talents, two talents, and one talent. Importantly, the master himself decides the assignment:
“to each according to his own ability.”

The focus of the illustration is not which servant received the greater responsibility, but whether each servant proved faithful with what was entrusted to him.

The servant with two talents received the exact same approval as the servant with five:

“Well done, good and faithful servant.”

So the value of the servant was not determined by the size of the assignment, but by faithfulness in fulfilling it. That principle harmonizes beautifully with Jehovah’s justice.

Throughout history, Jehovah has given different roles to different servants: apostles, prophets, teachers, shepherds, those rendering “helpful services,” those with “abilities to direct.” Interestingly, in 1 Corinthians 12:28 Paul says:

“God has appointed in the congregation first apostles, second prophets, third teachers… then gifts of healings, helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues.”

As brother King mentioned in another thread, it is interesting that Paul does not mention overseers or ministerial servants. Moreover, Paul’s emphasis is not prestige or superiority, but how different functions contribute to one body. In fact, the entire chapter argues against one member viewing himself as more important than another.

The eye cannot say to the hand:

“I have no need of you.”

That is a powerful principle.

Likewise, faithful servants before Christ such as John the Baptist, Moses, Jeremiah, or Elijah fulfilled the assignment Jehovah entrusted to them in their own time.

Jesus himself said regarding John:

“Among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist.”

So clearly Jehovah’s approval and love cannot simply be measured by whether someone receives a heavenly or earthly assignment.

The heavenly calling may involve a unique role within Jehovah’s purpose, just as apostles or prophets had unique roles. But role is not the same as worth.

Otherwise we would have to conclude that John the Baptist somehow became “less valuable” simply because he lived before the new covenant opened — which would contradict both Jesus’ words and Jehovah’s justice.

Jesus also said regarding his followers:

“I have other sheep… and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:16)

The direction of the passage is toward unification, not permanent spiritual stratification or existential inequality.

The image Jesus chooses is not separate castes, competing levels of worth, or spiritual aristocracy. It is one flock

Different assignments can exist within perfect unity — just as different members exist within one body. And Jehovah, being perfectly just, evaluates each servant according to faithfulness, not according to whether their assignment appears more exalted in human eyes.

Excellent reasoning.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

I think the illustration of the talents is actually very important in this discussion because it helps clarify the difference between assignment and personal worth.

In the parable, the master gives different amounts to each servant: five talents, two talents, and one talent. Importantly, the master himself decides the assignment:
“to each according to his own ability.”

The focus of the illustration is not which servant received the greater responsibility, but whether each servant proved faithful with what was entrusted to him.

The servant with two talents received the exact same approval as the servant with five:

“Well done, good and faithful servant.”

So the value of the servant was not determined by the size of the assignment, but by faithfulness in fulfilling it. That principle harmonizes beautifully with Jehovah’s justice.

Throughout history, Jehovah has given different roles to different servants: apostles, prophets, teachers, shepherds, those rendering “helpful services,” those with “abilities to direct.” Interestingly, in 1 Corinthians 12:28 Paul says:

“God has appointed in the congregation first apostles, second prophets, third teachers… then gifts of healings, helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues.”

As brother King mentioned in another thread, it is interesting that Paul does not mention overseers or ministerial servants. Moreover, Paul’s emphasis is not prestige or superiority, but how different functions contribute to one body. In fact, the entire chapter argues against one member viewing himself as more important than another.

The eye cannot say to the hand:

“I have no need of you.”

That is a powerful principle.

Likewise, faithful servants before Christ such as John the Baptist, Moses, Jeremiah, or Elijah fulfilled the assignment Jehovah entrusted to them in their own time.

Jesus himself said regarding John:

“Among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist.”

So clearly Jehovah’s approval and love cannot simply be measured by whether someone receives a heavenly or earthly assignment.

The heavenly calling may involve a unique role within Jehovah’s purpose, just as apostles or prophets had unique roles. But role is not the same as worth.

Otherwise we would have to conclude that John the Baptist somehow became “less valuable” simply because he lived before the new covenant opened — which would contradict both Jesus’ words and Jehovah’s justice.

Jesus also said regarding his followers:

“I have other sheep… and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:16)

The direction of the passage is toward unification, not permanent spiritual stratification or existential inequality.

The image Jesus chooses is not separate castes, competing levels of worth, or spiritual aristocracy. It is one flock

Different assignments can exist within perfect unity — just as different members exist within one body. And Jehovah, being perfectly just, evaluates each servant according to faithfulness, not according to whether their assignment appears more exalted in human eyes.

There are not levels of faithfulness. Either one is faithful or they are not. If one is accepted into the kingdom it is because their faith is acceptable. It is similar to displays of courage. For some, just getting though the day is the ultimate in courage. Not because they put their life on the line, but simply because they have decided to live for another day.

Being offered a place at the right hand of Jehovah is perhaps reflective of this both in the parable of the Talants that I suggested and in the measure of the qualities one can display in courage. Many are called, as the scripture says, but few are chosen. The inference then is upon the values one has towards one’s self in respect of how much they will give of themselves to demonstrate it. This can only be measured within the heart. Though what this has to do with @Tink point on baptism I don’t know.