The loyalty test

[Ireneo]

You're hilarious. Isn't that photo great though... except this time "leadership" are the ones pushing something. I need to photoshop that with them holding the shots.

The temptation to do so was great.
I couldn't stand it

 

[Ireneo]

wow that article is amazing, isn’t it! The GB is so short sighted it doesn’t even remember what it signed off on just a few years back?

@Ireneo this article is for you!

What a great find @MuleJule

yes the article is great
As in my congregation they are fanatics of what the watchtower says, I will read it to them
They will not be able to deny a change of doctrine

 

[MuleJule]

The temptation to do so was great.
I couldn't stand it

View attachment 414

I LOVE IT! You did such a great job Ireneo! It’s good to laugh when we can.

 

[Ireneo]

Eso es lo sorprendente de todo esto.
Aquí está el anuncio de abril de 2021:



3. Decisiones personales durante la pandemia: en algunas partes del mundo, los gobiernos
han comenzado a poner a disposición del público las vacunas contra el COVID-19. Si alguien elige
vacunarse es una decisión personal. (Gál. 6:5) Por lo tanto, sería amoroso respetar la
decisión que cada individuo toma basado en su conciencia educada en la Biblia, en lugar de
presionar a alguien para que tome la misma decisión que nosotros tomamos.

Claramente se agotaron. El Cuerpo Gobernante ha ido directamente en contra de este consejo que dieron, el cual estaba basado en la Biblia. Y ahora esperan que todos los ancianos violen la Biblia presionando sobre un asunto de elección personal. Es asombroso cuántos ancianos han colocado al Cuerpo Gobernante por encima de lo que la Biblia enseña claramente. Incluso cuando se les señala claramente, la disonancia cognitiva es tan intensa que apoyan el GB incluso sin apoyo bíblico. Claramente ha terminado ahora. Sólo un choque de trenes. El GB no tiene manera de caminar de regreso. Han cavado un hoyo del que no pueden escapar.

Hello Joe
I'm looking for the letter and it doesn't appear
would they have deleted it?
Can you pass me the exact date and title?

 

[Ireneo]

Brother Ireneo, here is the text of my most recent communication with the elders, in November. Some ideas here may help. Just sticking to one irrefutable point:

Here is the April 2021 announcement:



3. Personal Decisions During the Pandemic: In some parts of the world, governments
have begun to make COVID-19 vaccines available to the public. Whether someone chooses
to be vaccinated is a personal decision. (Gal. 6:5) Thus, it would be loving to respect the personal
decision that each individual makes based on his Bible-trained conscience, instead of
pressuring someone to make the same choice that we made.





Since that announcement, in the last four updates, the Governing Body has changed course and has been pressuring the friends to make the same personal decision that they have made. This stand by them is clear and not open to debate. This is directly contrary to their own counsel in the above announcement.



Further, in August 2021 the Governing Body sent a letter to all special fulltime servants, including Bethelites, Circuit Overseers, etc. informing them that all would have to get the injections in order to continue in special fulltime service. It was a mandate.



My question for you would be, what scriptural right, in the sight of God, does the Governing Body have to go against their previous proper Bible based counsel, (Galatians 6:5) and now proceed to pressure all of Jehovah's Witnesses to accept a medical treatment that falls within the God-given right for each individual Christian to decide based upon their Bible trained conscience?



This is what the Bible says:



"Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand." (Romans 14:3,4)



This clearly applies with personal medical matters. There is no way around this clear principle.



No human, including the Governing Body, or secular governments, has the right to try and impose their conscience upon the conscience of individual Christians, in a personal medical matter. We must obey God as ruler rather than man, and not violate our personal conscience.



The apostle Paul, nor Jesus, nor Jehovah himself has ever done this. What right does the Governing Body have to do what even they would not do?



The "faithful slave" once rightly said about the mandating of vaccines in the months leading up to the outbreak of WWII: "It is the essence of totalitarianism, and the denial of the most fundamental of human rights." "It is the spirit of Satan." (Consolation May 31, 1939 pp.3,4) This is the correct Bible based stand.



No man can be a master over our own faith. We stand or fall individually before Jehovah and his Son.



Until you can scripturally explain why the Governing Body has gone against it's own Bible based counsel for the flock, as clearly stated in the April 2021 announcement, and is violating the above rock solid Bible principles upon which our very spiritual lives depend, sadly, I see no reason for us to subject ourselves to any attempts on your part to render spiritual "assistance" at this time.

(The BOE has been trying to set up a "shepherding call" and also wants to talk about my "stand." I refuse to engage them since I resigned as an elder in June 2021.)

yes i totally agree with you
They must prove with the bible what you say
The "proper food" is based on the bible
but I think the letter was deleted
I can't find it in the files
It will be for something?
I'll keep looking

 

[Jim]

Hello I will tell you how the story continues
A few days ago something diabolical happened to me
The elders of my congregation gave me a "loyalty test"
They gave me a letter to read in front of the brothers that encouraged them to get vaccinated
I had 5 minutes to do it
It was horrible pressure
I remembered Daniel and how they tried to catch him by putting him against God
I felt that if I read it I would become an idolater
I felt exactly the same as I felt at school 30 years ago
When I just started studying
They put me in front of the flag and asked me to sing the anthem
I refused but they started yelling at me
I felt that I would betray God and I stood my ground and I didn't.
This was the same for 30 years that I did not feel the pressure to idolatry
I told them I wouldn't do it as a matter of conscience
I'm not going to tell my brothers to get vaccinated
Be exposed since in report 10 brother Morris says "you have to get vaccinated"
It was a trap to expose me and catch me
It is clear that I disagree with the GB, there was no way out
Then I got to thinking why I felt like I would be an idol if I did that
I understood in a new way all this
The GB is demanding worship
It is undeniable is what I felt
It's a matter of faith
The brothers have fallen into idolatry
I remembered the Catholics who carry images
They are not necessarily bad and they think they worship God
But they adore him "through the image"
And if we criticize the image they get angry
GB supporters do the same
They attack whoever dares to disobey the gb
They worship God through him
I understood it in a new way
They told me that they would meet me to speak again 2 elders
At the meeting I decided to attack the matter intelligently
Make an argument they couldn't refute
I want to mention them because it was tested on the "battlefield" and they couldn't refute it
I base myself on the "neutrality" argument
I told them that the organization has been neutral in medical treatment for 70 years
This is based on not being master over anyone's faith and respecting individual rights
I told them that I have decided not to vaccinate
But I respect the decision of each one in this
My public position is not to recommend vaccination nor not vaccination
One thing or another
It is one thing to give information but another to recommend.
So I wouldn't push anyone to get vaccinated or not to get vaccinated
They tried to use fallacies and accuse me that my refusal was for not getting vaccinated
but they couldn't because I talked about neutrality
I want to maintain neutrality, I said
And I said that in report 10 the organization abandoned neutrality
they turned green
But I explained
Telling the brothers "get vaccinated" is taking sides
To take sides is to leave neutrality
I did not change, I am the same as 30 years ago
The organization changed
They had to admit
then i said
we are facing a doctrinal change
a new light
The brothers will now recommend vaccination
Before report 10, if someone did it, we corrected them for not being neutral.
After report 10 that changed
I asked them
What is the basis for doctrinal change?
Why was the neutral stance abandoned on medical issues?
They had to admit that no arguments were provided
So they told me that I should accept it because sometimes illogical things are said and they read me the watchtower
They said we don't have all the data
I told them no
that doesn't apply
The GB when making DOCTRINAL decisions is based on the bible
An ADMINISTRATIVE decision is not the same as a DOCTRINAL decision
the GB cannot make a decision and say
"the decision was based on the bible but I can't show you the biblical arguments that support it"
The bible that I have is the same as the GB
So I want the arguments on which the "new light" is based.
An elder must adhere "to the faithful word when teaching"
The GB is obliged to show me the biblical arguments to rule out vaccine neutrality
They accused me of mistrusting the GB and trying to understand
I said I can't understand what I don't know
I'm not stupid they just didn't show the argument why I should abandon neutrality
I just don't know why now I have to be partisan on a controversial issue
So my position will be neutrality until they show me the opposite with the bible.
My bible-educated conscience tells me to be neutral

They got very upset and scheduled a meeting with all the elders with me.
I think they want to destroy me
The key is to make the following clear
Neutrality in medical matters is biblical
It has been our position for decades
If it changes it is a doctrinal change
The GB is obliged to substantiate the doctrinal change with the bible
If you don't show it I'm not obligated to change

You have to hold on to that like a bulldog and don't let go until they bleed out.
They try to use fallacies that accuse us of bad motivations, apostasy, distrust, being anti-vaccine, etc.
But if one clings to neutrality they lose the debate
I wanted to share it with you maybe it will help you
They cannot even destroy neutrality by claiming that governments ask for it
Christ said "give Caesar's to Caesar and God's to God."
If God asks for neutrality, it doesn't matter what the government says.
The neutrality argument is indestructible

I tell you in case you have to face "the loyalty test"
Satan doesn't change
The one who did not light incense in front of the altar to the emperor ended up eaten by the beasts

Do those brothers not know that even something that in of itself may not sinful, but if done in bad faith against your conscience could still be a sin? Unreal. They actually want you to do something that is against your conscience. Gross.

 

[Ireneo]

si estoy totalmente de acuerdo contigo
Deben probar con la biblia lo que dices
La "alimentación adecuada" se basa en la biblia.
pero creo que la carta fue borrada
no lo encuentro en los archivos
¿Será por algo?
seguiré buscando

Hello Joe
I'm looking for the letter and it doesn't appear
would they have deleted it?
Can you pass me the exact date and title?

I found her
tomorrow I will read them thank you very much

 

[PJ54]

I found her
tomorrow I will read them thank you very much

Hey @Ireneo I found a website that has an app where you can record your screen with it. Streamers use it for their personal uses so you can record your Zoom meeting without telling the elders.

Open Broadcaster Software | OBS

OBS (Open Broadcaster Software) is free and open source software for video recording and live streaming. Stream to Twitch, YouTube and many other providers or record your own videos with high quality H264 / AAC encoding.

obsproject.com

 

[Ireneo]

I LOVE IT! You did such a great job Ireneo! It’s good to laugh when we can.

 

[Ireneo]

Hey @Ireneo I found a website that has an app where you can record your screen with it. Streamers use it for their personal uses so you can record your Zoom meeting without telling the elders.

Open Broadcaster Software | OBS

OBS (Open Broadcaster Software) is free and open source software for video recording and live streaming. Stream to Twitch, YouTube and many other providers or record your own videos with high quality H264 / AAC encoding.

obsproject.com

Great thank you very much

 

[MuleJule]

View attachment 416

You are on a roll! Keep them coming

 

[OnlyJah]

Hello I will tell you how the story continues
A few days ago something diabolical happened to me
The elders of my congregation gave me a "loyalty test"
They gave me a letter to read in front of the brothers that encouraged them to get vaccinated
I had 5 minutes to do it
It was horrible pressure
I remembered Daniel and how they tried to catch him by putting him against God
I felt that if I read it I would become an idolater
I felt exactly the same as I felt at school 30 years ago
When I just started studying
They put me in front of the flag and asked me to sing the anthem
I refused but they started yelling at me
I felt that I would betray God and I stood my ground and I didn't.
This was the same for 30 years that I did not feel the pressure to idolatry
I told them I wouldn't do it as a matter of conscience
I'm not going to tell my brothers to get vaccinated
Be exposed since in report 10 brother Morris says "you have to get vaccinated"
It was a trap to expose me and catch me
It is clear that I disagree with the GB, there was no way out
Then I got to thinking why I felt like I would be an idol if I did that
I understood in a new way all this
The GB is demanding worship
It is undeniable is what I felt
It's a matter of faith
The brothers have fallen into idolatry
I remembered the Catholics who carry images
They are not necessarily bad and they think they worship God
But they adore him "through the image"
And if we criticize the image they get angry
GB supporters do the same
They attack whoever dares to disobey the gb
They worship God through him
I understood it in a new way
They told me that they would meet me to speak again 2 elders
At the meeting I decided to attack the matter intelligently
Make an argument they couldn't refute
I want to mention them because it was tested on the "battlefield" and they couldn't refute it
I base myself on the "neutrality" argument
I told them that the organization has been neutral in medical treatment for 70 years
This is based on not being master over anyone's faith and respecting individual rights
I told them that I have decided not to vaccinate
But I respect the decision of each one in this
My public position is not to recommend vaccination nor not vaccination
One thing or another
It is one thing to give information but another to recommend.
So I wouldn't push anyone to get vaccinated or not to get vaccinated
They tried to use fallacies and accuse me that my refusal was for not getting vaccinated
but they couldn't because I talked about neutrality
I want to maintain neutrality, I said
And I said that in report 10 the organization abandoned neutrality
they turned green
But I explained
Telling the brothers "get vaccinated" is taking sides
To take sides is to leave neutrality
I did not change, I am the same as 30 years ago
The organization changed
They had to admit
then i said
we are facing a doctrinal change
a new light
The brothers will now recommend vaccination
Before report 10, if someone did it, we corrected them for not being neutral.
After report 10 that changed
I asked them
What is the basis for doctrinal change?
Why was the neutral stance abandoned on medical issues?
They had to admit that no arguments were provided
So they told me that I should accept it because sometimes illogical things are said and they read me the watchtower
They said we don't have all the data
I told them no
that doesn't apply
The GB when making DOCTRINAL decisions is based on the bible
An ADMINISTRATIVE decision is not the same as a DOCTRINAL decision
the GB cannot make a decision and say
"the decision was based on the bible but I can't show you the biblical arguments that support it"
The bible that I have is the same as the GB
So I want the arguments on which the "new light" is based.
An elder must adhere "to the faithful word when teaching"
The GB is obliged to show me the biblical arguments to rule out vaccine neutrality
They accused me of mistrusting the GB and trying to understand
I said I can't understand what I don't know
I'm not stupid they just didn't show the argument why I should abandon neutrality
I just don't know why now I have to be partisan on a controversial issue
So my position will be neutrality until they show me the opposite with the bible.
My bible-educated conscience tells me to be neutral

They got very upset and scheduled a meeting with all the elders with me.
I think they want to destroy me
The key is to make the following clear
Neutrality in medical matters is biblical
It has been our position for decades
If it changes it is a doctrinal change
The GB is obliged to substantiate the doctrinal change with the bible
If you don't show it I'm not obligated to change

You have to hold on to that like a bulldog and don't let go until they bleed out.
They try to use fallacies that accuse us of bad motivations, apostasy, distrust, being anti-vaccine, etc.
But if one clings to neutrality they lose the debate
I wanted to share it with you maybe it will help you
They cannot even destroy neutrality by claiming that governments ask for it
Christ said "give Caesar's to Caesar and God's to God."
If God asks for neutrality, it doesn't matter what the government says.
The neutrality argument is indestructible

I tell you in case you have to face "the loyalty test"
Satan doesn't change
The one who did not light incense in front of the altar to the emperor ended up eaten by the beasts

 

[OnlyJah]

Hello I will tell you how the story continues
A few days ago something diabolical happened to me
The elders of my congregation gave me a "loyalty test"
They gave me a letter to read in front of the brothers that encouraged them to get vaccinated
I had 5 minutes to do it
It was horrible pressure
I remembered Daniel and how they tried to catch him by putting him against God
I felt that if I read it I would become an idolater
I felt exactly the same as I felt at school 30 years ago
When I just started studying
They put me in front of the flag and asked me to sing the anthem
I refused but they started yelling at me
I felt that I would betray God and I stood my ground and I didn't.
This was the same for 30 years that I did not feel the pressure to idolatry
I told them I wouldn't do it as a matter of conscience
I'm not going to tell my brothers to get vaccinated
Be exposed since in report 10 brother Morris says "you have to get vaccinated"
It was a trap to expose me and catch me
It is clear that I disagree with the GB, there was no way out
Then I got to thinking why I felt like I would be an idol if I did that
I understood in a new way all this
The GB is demanding worship
It is undeniable is what I felt
It's a matter of faith
The brothers have fallen into idolatry
I remembered the Catholics who carry images
They are not necessarily bad and they think they worship God
But they adore him "through the image"
And if we criticize the image they get angry
GB supporters do the same
They attack whoever dares to disobey the gb
They worship God through him
I understood it in a new way
They told me that they would meet me to speak again 2 elders
At the meeting I decided to attack the matter intelligently
Make an argument they couldn't refute
I want to mention them because it was tested on the "battlefield" and they couldn't refute it
I base myself on the "neutrality" argument
I told them that the organization has been neutral in medical treatment for 70 years
This is based on not being master over anyone's faith and respecting individual rights
I told them that I have decided not to vaccinate
But I respect the decision of each one in this
My public position is not to recommend vaccination nor not vaccination
One thing or another
It is one thing to give information but another to recommend.
So I wouldn't push anyone to get vaccinated or not to get vaccinated
They tried to use fallacies and accuse me that my refusal was for not getting vaccinated
but they couldn't because I talked about neutrality
I want to maintain neutrality, I said
And I said that in report 10 the organization abandoned neutrality
they turned green
But I explained
Telling the brothers "get vaccinated" is taking sides
To take sides is to leave neutrality
I did not change, I am the same as 30 years ago
The organization changed
They had to admit
then i said
we are facing a doctrinal change
a new light
The brothers will now recommend vaccination
Before report 10, if someone did it, we corrected them for not being neutral.
After report 10 that changed
I asked them
What is the basis for doctrinal change?
Why was the neutral stance abandoned on medical issues?
They had to admit that no arguments were provided
So they told me that I should accept it because sometimes illogical things are said and they read me the watchtower
They said we don't have all the data
I told them no
that doesn't apply
The GB when making DOCTRINAL decisions is based on the bible
An ADMINISTRATIVE decision is not the same as a DOCTRINAL decision
the GB cannot make a decision and say
"the decision was based on the bible but I can't show you the biblical arguments that support it"
The bible that I have is the same as the GB
So I want the arguments on which the "new light" is based.
An elder must adhere "to the faithful word when teaching"
The GB is obliged to show me the biblical arguments to rule out vaccine neutrality
They accused me of mistrusting the GB and trying to understand
I said I can't understand what I don't know
I'm not stupid they just didn't show the argument why I should abandon neutrality
I just don't know why now I have to be partisan on a controversial issue
So my position will be neutrality until they show me the opposite with the bible.
My bible-educated conscience tells me to be neutral

They got very upset and scheduled a meeting with all the elders with me.
I think they want to destroy me
The key is to make the following clear
Neutrality in medical matters is biblical
It has been our position for decades
If it changes it is a doctrinal change
The GB is obliged to substantiate the doctrinal change with the bible
If you don't show it I'm not obligated to change

You have to hold on to that like a bulldog and don't let go until they bleed out.
They try to use fallacies that accuse us of bad motivations, apostasy, distrust, being anti-vaccine, etc.
But if one clings to neutrality they lose the debate
I wanted to share it with you maybe it will help you
They cannot even destroy neutrality by claiming that governments ask for it
Christ said "give Caesar's to Caesar and God's to God."
If God asks for neutrality, it doesn't matter what the government says.
The neutrality argument is indestructible

I tell you in case you have to face "the loyalty test"
Satan doesn't change
The one who did not light incense in front of the altar to the emperor ended up eaten by the beasts

You are a hero - standing up for Jehovah and your brothers. Clearly they mean more than the position you hold. Jehovah sees and notes all these actions on their part and your reply. They are now indicted for the way they have acted. You will be blessed. Joe McTeeg used to be on this site and he was the same as you and there will be so many others. I know of several now. Stand firm, be aware of Jehovahs direction each time you speak with them. Well done brother you encourage us all.

 

[Joe MacTeeg]

I found her
tomorrow I will read them thank you very much

Ok. It was in the April 2021 announcements to the congregation. They even have the word "individual" in italics for emphasis. They have gone 180 degrees and gone against their own counsel. The elders have no way to refute this one simple announcement based on Galatians 6:5. That is my simple stand to them, which they cannot refute. I simply tell ask them to explain the change using the Bible.

And ask, why did the Governing Body not explain the change? They have no answer. So, I tell them I will not accept any shepherding call, or further discussion with the elders, until they can explain from the Bible why the Governing Body can override our conscience on this medical matter.

Stand strong brother. Don't let them pull you into side issues. They will likely ask you: "Do you believe the Governing Body (Faithful slave) is leading God's people today?" If you answer this question they can lay the groundwork not only to delete you, but disfellowship you.

This is why I don't allow the elders to speak with me on the phone. They will use 2 brothers and then invite you to a judicial hearing. But the rules are they can only invite you in person or on the phone. Or a letter in the mail. Then it is over. Because even if you don't answer the invitation, they will disfellowship. I don't want that yet, because I have many family on my wife's side, that maybe I can still help some.

The Circuit Overseer has told the elders to try and entrap me. But, they can't get me yet. But he visits again in 2 weeks. He will probably try again.

 

[Ireneo]

You are a hero - standing up for Jehovah and your brothers. Clearly they mean more than the position you hold. Jehovah sees and notes all these actions on their part and your reply. They are now indicted for the way they have acted. You will be blessed. Joe McTeeg used to be on this site and he was the same as you and there will be so many others. I know of several now. Stand firm, be aware of Jehovahs direction each time you speak with them. Well done brother you encourage us all.

Thank you for your encouraging words.
all this is so similar to the future mark of the beast
Could it be that Jehovah allows it to see who he will use in the future?
There is no doubt that it is a test of loyalty
"He who is faithful in little will be faithful in much.
The unjust in little will be unjust in much."
The mark of the beast will be much worse
Joe suffered this months ago
They come for everyone

 

[BillyRay]

Ok. It was in the April 2021 announcements to the congregation. They even have the word "individual" in italics for emphasis. They have gone 180 degrees and gone against their own counsel. The elders have no way to refute this one simple announcement based on Galatians 6:5. That is my simple stand to them, which they cannot refute. I simply tell ask them to explain the change using the Bible.

And ask, why did the Governing Body not explain the change? They have no answer. So, I tell them I will not accept any shepherding call, or further discussion with the elders, until they can explain from the Bible why the Governing Body can override our conscience on this medical matter.

Stand strong brother. Don't let them pull you into side issues. They will likely ask you: "Do you believe the Governing Body (Faithful slave) is leading God's people today?" If you answer this question they can lay the groundwork not only to delete you, but disfellowship you.

This is why I don't allow the elders to speak with me on the phone. They will use 2 brothers and then invite you to a judicial hearing. But the rules are they can only invite you in person or on the phone. Or a letter in the mail. Then it is over. Because even if you don't answer the invitation, they will disfellowship. I don't want that yet, because I have many family on my wife's side, that maybe I can still help some.

The Circuit Overseer has told the elders to try and entrap me. But, they can't get me yet. But he visits again in 2 weeks. He will probably try again.

Hi Joe: You said: “The Circuit Overseer has told the elders to try and entrap me.”

How did you come to possess this information?

 

[Ireneo]

Ok. It was in the April 2021 announcements to the congregation. They even have the word "individual" in italics for emphasis. They have gone 180 degrees and gone against their own counsel. The elders have no way to refute this one simple announcement based on Galatians 6:5. That is my simple stand to them, which they cannot refute. I simply tell ask them to explain the change using the Bible.

And ask, why did the Governing Body not explain the change? They have no answer. So, I tell them I will not accept any shepherding call, or further discussion with the elders, until they can explain from the Bible why the Governing Body can override our conscience on this medical matter.

Stand strong brother. Don't let them pull you into side issues. They will likely ask you: "Do you believe the Governing Body (Faithful slave) is leading God's people today?" If you answer this question they can lay the groundwork not only to delete you, but disfellowship you.

This is why I don't allow the elders to speak with me on the phone. They will use 2 brothers and then invite you to a judicial hearing. But the rules are they can only invite you in person or on the phone. Or a letter in the mail. Then it is over. Because even if you don't answer the invitation, they will disfellowship. I don't want that yet, because I have many family on my wife's side, that maybe I can still help some.

The Circuit Overseer has told the elders to try and entrap me. But, they can't get me yet. But he visits again in 2 weeks. He will probably try again.

it is as you say
his weak point is the change
Any change must be explained
They must explain why biblical principles do not apply here.
They will try to attack me from all sides
But you have to hold on to that argument and not give in.
tomorrow I will tell you how it went

 

[Joe MacTeeg]

Hi Joe: You said: “The Circuit Overseer has told the elders to try and entrap me.”

How did you come to possess this information?

There were a few steps involved. February 2021 I wrote an 8 page letter to the GB about the entire "pandemic" and "vaccine" situation. No reply.

When the "misinformation/conspiracy theory" article was posted on jw.org I then wrote the GB about that. The service department sent a weak reply that did not address the scriptural points I made, and said to see the elders if I had any more need for help. (I think they replied because I told them I was an elder of 28 years, and my wife a pioneer of 25 years, and I stated we were distressed by the article.)

In June 2021 when they first openly advocated the "vaccines" in the June monthly announcements, I submitted my resignation as an elder due to an "untenable" conscience situation where I could not as an elder recommend the injections to the friends, being aware of the VAERS data, which I referenced.

They had 2 brothers meet with me, to see "where do we go from here?" I just stuck to the above. (They were fishing for my view of the GB.) I just stuck to my point in my resignation letter. I pointed out to the two brothers that they could not very well scripturally tell me to violate my Bible trained conscience.

Over the next weeks I was still used to read the Watchtower, and pray at the meetings. I had a reading for the CBS coming up the week before the CO visit for the first week of August. An hour before the meeting the COBE texted me saying tersely, "so and so is reading tonight." No explanation. So I called him. In the conversation it slipped the CO said to not let me read. It also slipped out that the CO had my earlier letter to the GB about "misinformation." Further conversation with another elder revealed that some elders had objected to my being allowed to read, actually voicing concerns over "apostasy." So the elders called the CO, and he said to pull me from the reading. (Even though he would visit us the next week. They could not wait. So, clearly the CO had me in his cross-hairs. Not even waiting to speak with me personally.)

So, I was ticked off, as I had been faithfully doing every assignment as to Jehovah, for almost 40 years. I had even prepared well for the simple reading. So I texted the COBE personally that I did not appreciate the way I was not even spoken with. Forty years of assignments, and this is how it ends? I told him that I would accept no personal meeting or "shepherding" with the elders or the CO. I was done. I emailed the CO the same, citing my dismay at how this was handled. I told the CO that my letters were very clear, and there was nothing else to discuss.

So, during the week of the CO visit, two elders called me on a three-way call. I did not pick up. The brother left a voicemail saying 'it was not a shepherding call, but that the two brothers had some questions for me.' Now, this call was the day after their CO meeting with the elders. And the two brothers that had been selected to call me were the two brothers most after my head. Headhunters. Not the ones that would be assigned to try and "gain your brother." So, it was clear to me the CO assigned them, and gave them the "questions" to ask me.

Knowing well the protocols and "theocratic" rules for elders, the need for two elders to VERBALLY contact me with "questions" means that they want to nail down if I view the GB as the "channel" etc. Based on my answers, then they can right there, with two witnesses, "invite" me to a judicial hearing on grounds of "causing divisions and sects" etc. All they need is a verbal confession that one does not believe the GB is speaking for Jehovah. It does not matter if one is talking to anyone else, or actively trying to sway others. This was established back in 1981 after the 1980 purge at Bethel. It was in a 1981 branch letter. It is policy.

Since August, they have periodically tried to meet with me and my wife "about your stand." I ignore them. The CO visit is again in two weeks. I would be surprised if he does not renew his attempts to pin me down, or "entrap me." (My words. But clearly the CO's intention in directing the elders to speak with me.) In addition, whenever the branch forwards a letter to the CO like it did my letter, it comes with direction from the branch on approaching the letter-writer to 'determine his attitude.' I'm very familiar with the process, having been involved first-hand multiple times.

(So, "entrap him" is not the CO's exact words, but that is what it boils down to. They want me out.)

 

[PJ54]

There were a few steps involved. February 2021 I wrote an 8 page letter to the GB about the entire "pandemic" and "vaccine" situation. No reply.

When the "misinformation/conspiracy theory" article was posted on jw.org I then wrote the GB about that. The service department sent a weak reply that did not address the scriptural points I made, and said to see the elders if I had any more need for help. (I think they replied because I told them I was an elder of 28 years, and my wife a pioneer of 25 years, and I stated we were distressed by the article.)

In June 2021 when they first openly advocated the "vaccines" in the June monthly announcements, I submitted my resignation as an elder due to an "untenable" conscience situation where I could not as an elder recommend the injections to the friends, being aware of the VAERS data, which I referenced.

They had 2 brothers meet with me, to see "where do we go from here?" I just stuck to the above. (They were fishing for my view of the GB.) I just stuck to my point in my resignation letter. I pointed out to the two brothers that they could not very well scripturally tell me to violate my Bible trained conscience.

Over the next weeks I was still used to read the Watchtower, and pray at the meetings. I had a reading for the CBS coming up the week before the CO visit for the first week of August. An hour before the meeting the COBE texted me saying tersely, "so and so is reading tonight." No explanation. So I called him. In the conversation it slipped the CO said to not let me read. It also slipped out that the CO had my earlier letter to the GB about "misinformation." Further conversation with another elder revealed that some elders had objected to my being allowed to read, actually voicing concerns over "apostasy." So the elders called the CO, and he said to pull me from the reading. (Even though he would visit us the next week. They could not wait. So, clearly the CO had me in his cross-hairs. Not even waiting to speak with me personally.)

So, I was ticked off, as I had been faithfully doing every assignment as to Jehovah, for almost 40 years. I had even prepared well for the simple reading. So I texted the COBE personally that I did not appreciate the way I was not even spoken with. Forty years of assignments, and this is how it ends? I told him that I would accept no personal meeting or "shepherding" with the elders or the CO. I was done. I emailed the CO the same, citing my dismay at how this was handled. I told the CO that my letters were very clear, and there was nothing else to discuss.

So, during the week of the CO visit, two elders called me on a three-way call. I did not pick up. The brother left a voicemail saying 'it was not a shepherding call, but that the two brothers had some questions for me.' Now, this call was the day after their CO meeting with the elders. And the two brothers that had been selected to call me were the two brothers most after my head. Headhunters. Not the ones that would be assigned to try and "gain your brother." So, it was clear to me the CO assigned them, and gave them the "questions" to ask me.

Knowing well the protocols and "theocratic" rules for elders, the need for two elders to VERBALLY contact me with "questions" means that they want to nail down if I view the GB as the "channel" etc. Based on my answers, then they can right there, with two witnesses, "invite" me to a judicial hearing on grounds of "causing divisions and sects" etc. All they need is a verbal confession that one does not believe the GB is speaking for Jehovah. It does not matter if one is talking to anyone else, or actively trying to sway others. This was established back in 1981 after the 1980 purge at Bethel. It was in a 1981 branch letter. It is policy.

Since August, they have periodically tried to meet with me and my wife "about your stand." I ignore them. The CO visit is again in two weeks. I would be surprised if he does not renew his attempts to pin me down, or "entrap me." (My words. But clearly the CO's intention in directing the elders to speak with me.) In addition, whenever the branch forwards a letter to the CO like it did my letter, it comes with direction from the branch on approaching the letter-writer to 'determine his attitude.' I'm very familiar with the process, having been involved first-hand multiple times.

(So, "entrap him" is not the CO's exact words, but that is what it boils down to. They want me out.)

I was wondering what may happen if a hearing is inevitable, if it's on Zoom then I'd record the meeting in secret if it was needed (There's even apps you could use on the phone though legality may vary by location). This site I use to record things if needed.

Open Broadcaster Software | OBS

OBS (Open Broadcaster Software) is free and open source software for video recording and live streaming. Stream to Twitch, YouTube and many other providers or record your own videos with high quality H264 / AAC encoding.

obsproject.com

 

[BillyRay]

There were a few steps involved. February 2021 I wrote an 8 page letter to the GB about the entire "pandemic" and "vaccine" situation. No reply.

When the "misinformation/conspiracy theory" article was posted on jw.org I then wrote the GB about that. The service department sent a weak reply that did not address the scriptural points I made, and said to see the elders if I had any more need for help. (I think they replied because I told them I was an elder of 28 years, and my wife a pioneer of 25 years, and I stated we were distressed by the article.)

In June 2021 when they first openly advocated the "vaccines" in the June monthly announcements, I submitted my resignation as an elder due to an "untenable" conscience situation where I could not as an elder recommend the injections to the friends, being aware of the VAERS data, which I referenced.

They had 2 brothers meet with me, to see "where do we go from here?" I just stuck to the above. (They were fishing for my view of the GB.) I just stuck to my point in my resignation letter. I pointed out to the two brothers that they could not very well scripturally tell me to violate my Bible trained conscience.

Over the next weeks I was still used to read the Watchtower, and pray at the meetings. I had a reading for the CBS coming up the week before the CO visit for the first week of August. An hour before the meeting the COBE texted me saying tersely, "so and so is reading tonight." No explanation. So I called him. In the conversation it slipped the CO said to not let me read. It also slipped out that the CO had my earlier letter to the GB about "misinformation." Further conversation with another elder revealed that some elders had objected to my being allowed to read, actually voicing concerns over "apostasy." So the elders called the CO, and he said to pull me from the reading. (Even though he would visit us the next week. They could not wait. So, clearly the CO had me in his cross-hairs. Not even waiting to speak with me personally.)

So, I was ticked off, as I had been faithfully doing every assignment as to Jehovah, for almost 40 years. I had even prepared well for the simple reading. So I texted the COBE personally that I did not appreciate the way I was not even spoken with. Forty years of assignments, and this is how it ends? I told him that I would accept no personal meeting or "shepherding" with the elders or the CO. I was done. I emailed the CO the same, citing my dismay at how this was handled. I told the CO that my letters were very clear, and there was nothing else to discuss.

So, during the week of the CO visit, two elders called me on a three-way call. I did not pick up. The brother left a voicemail saying 'it was not a shepherding call, but that the two brothers had some questions for me.' Now, this call was the day after their CO meeting with the elders. And the two brothers that had been selected to call me were the two brothers most after my head. Headhunters. Not the ones that would be assigned to try and "gain your brother." So, it was clear to me the CO assigned them, and gave them the "questions" to ask me.

Knowing well the protocols and "theocratic" rules for elders, the need for two elders to VERBALLY contact me with "questions" means that they want to nail down if I view the GB as the "channel" etc. Based on my answers, then they can right there, with two witnesses, "invite" me to a judicial hearing on grounds of "causing divisions and sects" etc. All they need is a verbal confession that one does not believe the GB is speaking for Jehovah. It does not matter if one is talking to anyone else, or actively trying to sway others. This was established back in 1981 after the 1980 purge at Bethel. It was in a 1981 branch letter. It is policy.

Since August, they have periodically tried to meet with me and my wife "about your stand." I ignore them. The CO visit is again in two weeks. I would be surprised if he does not renew his attempts to pin me down, or "entrap me." (My words. But clearly the CO's intention in directing the elders to speak with me.) In addition, whenever the branch forwards a letter to the CO like it did my letter, it comes with direction from the branch on approaching the letter-writer to 'determine his attitude.' I'm very familiar with the process, having been involved first-hand multiple times.

(So, "entrap him" is not the CO's exact words, but that is what it boils down to. They want me out.)

Thank you Joe. Thank you for taking the time to explain and answer my question.

Actions speak louder than words. So whether or not the CO actually said: “get-em”…. It would seem that the intention is exactly that.

Your experience saddens me greatly. This just isn’t right. The process being used meets the definition of the word: “inquisition”. This is the process that was used by Catholics to stomp out Heresy. Only they aren’t using the fear of great bodily harm or immediate execution to get you to capitulate…. They are using the threat of disfellowshipping, ostracism, and cutting you off from family and friends, in order to get you to comply. It’s in many ways, worse.

 

[PJ54]

Only they aren’t using the fear of great bodily harm or immediate execution to get you to capitulate….

Give it time & it may happen.

 

[SusanB]

There were a few steps involved. February 2021 I wrote an 8 page letter to the GB about the entire "pandemic" and "vaccine" situation. No reply.

When the "misinformation/conspiracy theory" article was posted on jw.org I then wrote the GB about that. The service department sent a weak reply that did not address the scriptural points I made, and said to see the elders if I had any more need for help. (I think they replied because I told them I was an elder of 28 years, and my wife a pioneer of 25 years, and I stated we were distressed by the article.)

In June 2021 when they first openly advocated the "vaccines" in the June monthly announcements, I submitted my resignation as an elder due to an "untenable" conscience situation where I could not as an elder recommend the injections to the friends, being aware of the VAERS data, which I referenced.

They had 2 brothers meet with me, to see "where do we go from here?" I just stuck to the above. (They were fishing for my view of the GB.) I just stuck to my point in my resignation letter. I pointed out to the two brothers that they could not very well scripturally tell me to violate my Bible trained conscience.

Over the next weeks I was still used to read the Watchtower, and pray at the meetings. I had a reading for the CBS coming up the week before the CO visit for the first week of August. An hour before the meeting the COBE texted me saying tersely, "so and so is reading tonight." No explanation. So I called him. In the conversation it slipped the CO said to not let me read. It also slipped out that the CO had my earlier letter to the GB about "misinformation." Further conversation with another elder revealed that some elders had objected to my being allowed to read, actually voicing concerns over "apostasy." So the elders called the CO, and he said to pull me from the reading. (Even though he would visit us the next week. They could not wait. So, clearly the CO had me in his cross-hairs. Not even waiting to speak with me personally.)

So, I was ticked off, as I had been faithfully doing every assignment as to Jehovah, for almost 40 years. I had even prepared well for the simple reading. So I texted the COBE personally that I did not appreciate the way I was not even spoken with. Forty years of assignments, and this is how it ends? I told him that I would accept no personal meeting or "shepherding" with the elders or the CO. I was done. I emailed the CO the same, citing my dismay at how this was handled. I told the CO that my letters were very clear, and there was nothing else to discuss.

So, during the week of the CO visit, two elders called me on a three-way call. I did not pick up. The brother left a voicemail saying 'it was not a shepherding call, but that the two brothers had some questions for me.' Now, this call was the day after their CO meeting with the elders. And the two brothers that had been selected to call me were the two brothers most after my head. Headhunters. Not the ones that would be assigned to try and "gain your brother." So, it was clear to me the CO assigned them, and gave them the "questions" to ask me.

Knowing well the protocols and "theocratic" rules for elders, the need for two elders to VERBALLY contact me with "questions" means that they want to nail down if I view the GB as the "channel" etc. Based on my answers, then they can right there, with two witnesses, "invite" me to a judicial hearing on grounds of "causing divisions and sects" etc. All they need is a verbal confession that one does not believe the GB is speaking for Jehovah. It does not matter if one is talking to anyone else, or actively trying to sway others. This was established back in 1981 after the 1980 purge at Bethel. It was in a 1981 branch letter. It is policy.

Since August, they have periodically tried to meet with me and my wife "about your stand." I ignore them. The CO visit is again in two weeks. I would be surprised if he does not renew his attempts to pin me down, or "entrap me." (My words. But clearly the CO's intention in directing the elders to speak with me.) In addition, whenever the branch forwards a letter to the CO like it did my letter, it comes with direction from the branch on approaching the letter-writer to 'determine his attitude.' I'm very familiar with the process, having been involved first-hand multiple times.

(So, "entrap him" is not the CO's exact words, but that is what it boils down to. They want me out.)

Thank you for telling the truth about what is happening to the Elders and brothers who are taking a stand for the truth. You are a great example to us all.

 

[Joe MacTeeg]

I was wondering what may happen if a hearing is inevitable, if it's on Zoom then I'd record the meeting in secret if it was needed (There's even apps you could use on the phone though legality may vary by location). This site I use to record things if needed.

Open Broadcaster Software | OBS

OBS (Open Broadcaster Software) is free and open source software for video recording and live streaming. Stream to Twitch, YouTube and many other providers or record your own videos with high quality H264 / AAC encoding.

obsproject.com

When they have two brothers meet with you, or have the entire body, as in the case of reviewing an elder's qualifications, they are allowed to do it on zoom, in which case it is easy to record. But judicial matters will only be done in person, usually at the Kingdom Hall, which is much more difficult to record. If it is about "apostasy" one will likely be searched, as some have been able to do some recording and later posting on the internet. Especially now, as there is apparently a purge going on.

 

[Joe MacTeeg]

Thank you Joe. Thank you for taking the time to explain and answer my question.

Actions speak louder than words. So whether or not the CO actually said: “get-em”…. It would seem that the intention is exactly that.

Your experience saddens me greatly. This just isn’t right. The process being used meets the definition of the word: “inquisition”. This is the process that was used by Catholics to stomp out Heresy. Only they aren’t using the fear of great bodily harm or immediate execution to get you to capitulate…. They are using the threat of disfellowshipping, ostracism, and cutting you off from family and friends, in order to get you to comply. It’s in many ways, worse.

Thank you. You are exactly right. It is the same as the Inquisition. Sadly, these brothers were friends and golfing buddies.....and I viewed the CO and his wife as friends................

 

[exLuther]

I’ve not only had Covid - and thus a measure of natural immunity - but I also chose to get vaccinated after consulting with my trusted physician. That being said, the only person who knows that I’m vaccinated is my wife. I haven’t told anyone. When asked, I simply say that my medical history is a private matter between me and my doctor. I had one friend press me. I told them I’d share my medical information with them, if they tell me what medications they were taking, and why?
It caught them off guard - and they said that was private. I said, “exactly”. That took care of that and I haven’t been asked again since.

Ireno, I’m stunned and horribly sorry at what you’re going through. It’s one of those things that I’d normally just at set aside as being beyond belief. But I know it’s not. I think to myself…. There are hundreds of pages of principled precedent, along with ample film/video that go directly against what they are now saying and doing. It’s bizzaro world! It’s madness!

I was just telling my hubby that my response to this question needs to be exactly what you are saying. I know people will assume it is because I'm not vaccinated (I am not), but I do know vaccinated people who agree with simply explaining that I don't answer that question because medical information is private.

I simply do not like supporting the concept that it is ok to demand this information. My husband's grandmother is in an assisted living facility here, and there is ONE person who works at the front desk who had asked each of us if we are vaccinated. When she asked me, I responded no. She was rude and incredulous, and asked the office about it, to which they said that's fine as long as she wears her mask. Then recently, same woman asked hubby and when he said no, she refused to let him in to help his grandmother with her computer! Gramma is 90 and has beaten Covid TWICE. I asked my MIL if they'd changed the policy, and she contacted them and got the official policy posted on the door so that cranky lady cannot keep others from seeing their family based on her personal preference.

It is a slippery slope to make it acceptable to ask for this info at random....