The purpose of the preaching work

DR75 less 1

Well-known member
Thanks for bringing that article up! That clarifies matters for the great crowd.

I have contended with others on here that when the GT hits, salvation is no longer available to those who have not already responded. to the message. The article BK Keven shared agrees, I think. Maybe I need to read again prehaps.
 

KingdomLeast

Well-known member
Gods chosen (those to be sealed) have to be refined first in the crucible of Jehovah's anger. How will that refining happen if they are already sealed before the great tribulation (their refinement period) begins..
Tell me, where do the Scriptures speak of the "elect" (144,000) going through the great tribulation? Only the Great Company go through the Great Tribulation.
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
Tell me, where do the Scriptures speak of the "elect" (144,000) going through the great tribulation? Only the Great Company go through the Great Tribulation.

Revelation11:​

And a reed* like a rod+ was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple+ [sanctuary]* of God* and the altar and those worshiping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside+ the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out* and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations,+ and they will trample the holy city+ underfoot for forty-two months.+ 3 And I will cause my two+ witnesses to prophesy+ a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.”+

Excerpted from - Jehovah Will By No Means Give Exemption from Punishment​

There is a price to pay for disrespecting Jehovah —for bringing reproach upon his name. And God will not give Bethel an exemption from punishment. It has been my unhappy duty this past decade to announce Jehovah’s coming judgment. The reality of a judgment day is easily discernible from the prophecy of Jeremiah, where in the 30th chapter, which is specifically earmarked for the final part of the days, God states: “For I am with you,” declares Jehovah, “to save you. But I will make an extermination among all the nations to which I scattered you; however, you I will not exterminate. I will discipline you to the proper degree, and I will by no means leave you unpunished. ”Read more> https://e-watchman.com/jehovah-will-by-no-means-give-exemption-from-punishment/

Look! Jehovah is coming down to tread on earth’s high places>https://e-watchman.com/look-jehovah-is-coming-down-to-tread-earths-high-places/



Who will be able to stand when he appears?> https://e-watchman.com/who-will-be-able-to-stand-when-he-appears/

 
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kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
Tell me, where do the Scriptures speak of the "elect" (144,000) going through the great tribulation? Only the Great Company go through the Great Tribulation.
As Kevin clearly brings out the in scriptures cited, the court yard that gets trampled by the nations would be the earthly interests of Jehovahs then reigning Kingdom namely the sealed Kings while still in the flesh.
How would the nations be able to trample it otherwise if it were in the heavens?
As to the tribulation, you have to think of it as comprising two phases.
There is the initial phase when the nations plunge themselves into a near extinction level event with no doubt at least limited nuclear war along with subsequent famine and plagues that always follow such, not to mention the total collapse of the economy.
Those in Jehovahs earthly organization, which also collapses at the outset of the tribulation, who are destined to be sealed, will not as of yet be officially sealed until they undergo refinement “to the proper degree”.
The duration of this first phase of the tribulation is not known other than its severity. It’s so bad there has to be divine intervention. How long will it take the people not killed outright from the missiles, earthquakes and the power grid going down to starve to death? In todays “just in time” delivery chains probably not too long.
The second phase of the tribulation is the 42 month rise and rule of the eighth king. The few thousand sealed brothers of Jesus ( is it 5 or 7 thousand? I forget) will come through a good portion of that 42 month period to accomplish the final witness to the nations.
Of course the already dead sealed ones, who’ve lived throughout history, will have been raised up to their heavenly station at the beginning of the great tribulation.
They don’t go through it.
At least this is how I visualize things going down. Correct me where I need correcting.
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
Is the end, the end of the preaching work, or is the end when the church is complete?

The good news will be preached first, and then the end will come​

“And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” — Mathew 24:14


When Jesus spoke of the “end” did he mean the end of Satan’s world? No. That is not reasonable. The reason is, Jesus also foretold that before the end the world will experience a time of disaster, unlike anything that has ever occurred. Jesus referred to it as the great tribulation. And he said it is coming upon the entire inhabited earth. So, it is not likely that Jehovah’s Witnesses will be carrying on their normal routine, preaching and teaching, going to meetings and all of that during a time of global chaos. So, when Jesus said “and then the end will come” he meant the end of the Christian ministry. Read more> https://e-watchman.com/end-will-come-2/
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
As Kevin clearly brings out the in scriptures cited, the court yard that gets trampled by the nations would be the earthly interests of Jehovahs then reigning Kingdom namely the sealed Kings while still in the flesh.
How would the nations be able to trample it otherwise if it were in the heavens?
As to the tribulation, you have to think of it as comprising two phases.
There is the initial phase when the nations plunge themselves into a near extinction level event with no doubt at least limited nuclear war along with subsequent famine and plagues that always follow such, not to mention the total collapse of the economy.
Those in Jehovahs earthly organization, which also collapses at the outset of the tribulation, who are destined to be sealed, will not as of yet be officially sealed until they undergo refinement “to the proper degree”.
The duration of this first phase of the tribulation is not known other than its severity. It’s so bad there has to be divine intervention. How long will it take the people not killed outright from the missiles, earthquakes and the power grid going down to starve to death? In todays “just in time” delivery chains probably not too long.
The second phase of the tribulation is the 42 month rise and rule of the eighth king. The few thousand sealed brothers of Jesus ( is it 5 or 7 thousand? I forget) will come through a good portion of that 42 month period to accomplish the final witness to the nations.
Of course the already dead sealed ones, who’ve lived throughout history, will have been raised up to their heavenly station at the beginning of the great tribulation.
They don’t go through it.
At least this is how I visualize things going down. Correct me where I need correcting.

What about the 7,000 who are killed?​

QUESTION: An article in the January, 2016, Watchtower, on paragraph 14, states that the Bible does not say how many of the anointed will be left at the time that the tribulation begins. However, I have understood from previous podcasts and articles of yours that there will be 7000. I take it this means that the Bible does not state how many will be there when the great tribulation begins, but it does state how many will be there at the end of the tribulation and just prior to Armageddon. If that is so, will those extra ones that die before the end of the GT die a martyr’s death? Also, can you explain or point out to me your reasoning for coming up with the 7000? What scriptures talk about this? Read more>​

> https://e-watchman.com/what-about-the-7000-who-are-killed/

 
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kenmuldoon55

Well-known member

What about the 7,000 who are killed?​

QUESTION: An article in the January, 2016, Watchtower, on paragraph 14, states that the Bible does not say how many of the anointed will be left at the time that the tribulation begins. However, I have understood from previous podcasts and articles of yours that there will be 7000. I take it this means that the Bible does not state how many will be there when the great tribulation begins, but it does state how many will be there at the end of the tribulation and just prior to Armageddon. If that is so, will those extra ones that die before the end of the GT die a martyr’s death? Also, can you explain or point out to me your reasoning for coming up with the 7000? What scriptures talk about this? Read more>​

> https://e-watchman.com/what-about-the-7000-who-are-killed/

Ah yes, thanks for that Kevin.
 

KingdomLeast

Well-known member
As Kevin clearly brings out the in scriptures cited, the court yard that gets trampled by the nations would be the earthly interests of Jehovahs then reigning Kingdom namely the sealed Kings while still in the flesh. .... At least this is how I visualize things going down. Correct me where I need correcting.
Revelation11:
And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.”
Sorry, but that still doesn't answer the question. While there have always been tribulations (see Acts 14:22). There is only ONE Great Tribulation, and there is nothing to suggest that the 144,000 go THROUGH it.

As I see it, the number 4 represents universal, or completeness, think of a square, where all sides meet. The fact that Revelations 7 speaks of the four corners of the earth is probably why many in those days thought the world was flat, but I digress. The four angels are "standing at the four corners of the earth."

They are the same forces which control mankind in the northern, eastern, western and southern hemispheres. "Standing" is frequently a symbol for reigning, and these four forces do indeed control every facet of the world. They control everyone, regardless of where on the face of the earth they dwell.

In Revelation 9:14, 15, we hear a voice (vs 13) saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet,

“Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.
As you know Revelation is a book of symbols, so things aren't always what they seem. When we think of angels we think spirit beings, but they are messengers, and as messengers, they can be human or angelic. In this case, I believe the angels represent something totally different, they represent "agencies" or the four basic pillars of society, that is 1. social, 2. financial, 3. political and 4. the ecclesiastical systems.

"Wind" is a symbol of war or strife. Think of the expression "the winds of war." The fact that there are four seems to tell me that strife can and will eventually affect all four of these forces - society, economics, politics and religion. These four winds are a picture of the strife that will affect society - man's basic everyday functions.

It's common to think of a whirlwind when considering this verse. Four winds blowing from four directions will, at the point of meeting, create a tornado or cyclonic episodes. Both Isaiah 21 and Zechariah 9 speak of whirlwinds. The four winds reference seem to be there to say that all four functions of man's governance will experience strife, not necessarily that a hurricane is meant.

In Rev 7:1 we're told that the winds are held back, so that they "should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree." These three are not literal but symbolic. When we think of "earth" we think of society, but this is just one segment of society, because "sea" and "trees" are also part of society. Earth here seems to symbolize that segment of society that rules humanity. The powerful who wish to cultivate that power and never give it up.

"Sea" represents the masses. Humanity in general, ordinary people. While "trees" according to both the Old and New Testament symbolize nations, individuals of prominence or institutions. Trees are notable. I believe in this verse they represent notable individuals, people whose influence is significant beyond institutions or governments. Think of Martin Luther King, Jr. Einstein, Mandela and others. True Christians should be "trees" but due to their place in life are not very noticeable. (see Psalm 1:3)

So these four agencies, or angels, as long as they remain stable and are allowed to function, hold back the winds of trouble and afford a measure of protection from the lawlessness and anarchy that would immediately result from the breakdown, or removal, of any one of them. The financial pillar has been badly shaken these past few years, sweeping the entire civilized world. The end of the present civilization will come when all four pillars fall, the result will be a whirlwind of anarchy, such as never before has been witnessed. Before that takes place, all the servants of God, (the remaining ones of the 144,000) the anointed still in the flesh will have been sealed and the door will be shut, the elect are complete, the mystery of God is finished.
When introducing the Great Company, Crowd, Multitude (pick your choice) it says of them in verse 14: "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation." The 144,000 are not mentioned among them.
 

kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
Sorry, but that still doesn't answer the question. While there have always been tribulations (see Acts 14:22). There is only ONE Great Tribulation, and there is nothing to suggest that the 144,000 go THROUGH it.

As I see it, the number 4 represents universal, or completeness, think of a square, where all sides meet. The fact that Revelations 7 speaks of the four corners of the earth is probably why many in those days thought the world was flat, but I digress. The four angels are "standing at the four corners of the earth."

They are the same forces which control mankind in the northern, eastern, western and southern hemispheres. "Standing" is frequently a symbol for reigning, and these four forces do indeed control every facet of the world. They control everyone, regardless of where on the face of the earth they dwell.

In Revelation 9:14, 15, we hear a voice (vs 13) saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet,

“Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.
As you know Revelation is a book of symbols, so things aren't always what they seem. When we think of angels we think spirit beings, but they are messengers, and as messengers, they can be human or angelic. In this case, I believe the angels represent something totally different, they represent "agencies" or the four basic pillars of society, that is 1. social, 2. financial, 3. political and 4. the ecclesiastical systems.

"Wind" is a symbol of war or strife. Think of the expression "the winds of war." The fact that there are four seems to tell me that strife can and will eventually affect all four of these forces - society, economics, politics and religion. These four winds are a picture of the strife that will affect society - man's basic everyday functions.

It's common to think of a whirlwind when considering this verse. Four winds blowing from four directions will, at the point of meeting, create a tornado or cyclonic episodes. Both Isaiah 21 and Zechariah 9 speak of whirlwinds. The four winds reference seem to be there to say that all four functions of man's governance will experience strife, not necessarily that a hurricane is meant.

In Rev 7:1 we're told that the winds are held back, so that they "should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree." These three are not literal but symbolic. When we think of "earth" we think of society, but this is just one segment of society, because "sea" and "trees" are also part of society. Earth here seems to symbolize that segment of society that rules humanity. The powerful who wish to cultivate that power and never give it up.

"Sea" represents the masses. Humanity in general, ordinary people. While "trees" according to both the Old and New Testament symbolize nations, individuals of prominence or institutions. Trees are notable. I believe in this verse they represent notable individuals, people whose influence is significant beyond institutions or governments. Think of Martin Luther King, Jr. Einstein, Mandela and others. True Christians should be "trees" but due to their place in life are not very noticeable. (see Psalm 1:3)

So these four agencies, or angels, as long as they remain stable and are allowed to function, hold back the winds of trouble and afford a measure of protection from the lawlessness and anarchy that would immediately result from the breakdown, or removal, of any one of them. The financial pillar has been badly shaken these past few years, sweeping the entire civilized world. The end of the present civilization will come when all four pillars fall, the result will be a whirlwind of anarchy, such as never before has been witnessed. Before that takes place, all the servants of God, (the remaining ones of the 144,000) the anointed still in the flesh will have been sealed and the door will be shut, the elect are complete, the mystery of God is finished.
When introducing the Great Company, Crowd, Multitude (pick your choice) it says of them in verse 14: "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation." The 144,000 are not mentioned among them.
You make some interesting points here but you fail to mention the 42 month long reign of the eighth king which starts when the tribulation is cut short when the opportunity to take or reject the mark of the beast is forced.
Kind of an important detail you omitted.
You say that before the tribulation starts that the earthly brothers of Jesus are sealed and that the door of salvation is officially closed.
How are those destined to be sealed refined by Jehovah before the global catastrophe in a world’s business as usual atmosphere?
In reality the “two witnesses” aren’t even commissioned for their work of prophesying to the kings of the earth until after the time of great woe has been suspended.
“So I took the little book from the angel’s hand and ate it, and in my mouth it was as sweet as honey; but once I had swallowed it, my stomach was bitter. Then they said to me, “You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and languages and kings.”
Rev.10.10,11
The actual separating of the sheep and goats can’t occur until this eighth kings rule begins because it can only be during this 42 month long period when Jesus brothers are persecuted and imprisoned and opportunities by the other sheep to minister to these brothers of Jesus, as the prophecy in Matthew 25 reveals, will present themselves.
Besides this, the whole purpose of this eighth kings rule will be for Jehovah to force the ages old issue of universal sovereignty and provide the opportunity for every survivor of the great tribulation to either accept His agency of rule as then expressed through Jesus, and the 144000 co rulers, or Satans global tyrant the eighth king.
The divinely empowered 7000
(thanks Kevin for that clarification) sealed brothers of Jesus will bring this issue into clear unmistakeable focus for all the world to see and for however long into the eighth kings 42 month long rule he is permitted to force the mark on people, likewise the opportunity to reject it and remain in the Lambs book of life will, in my opinion, still exist.
So the whole “door to salvation being closed” when the tribulation begins is a WT fable and inconsistent with Jehovahs consistent pattern of mercy which throughout history was extended after the rod of His discipline was applied to His peoples backside.
Additionally, Robert has pointed out that those killed during the ride of the horsemen of the apocalypse end up in Hades which is Adamic death from which a resurrection is possible. How can Jehovah condemn those still living after the tribulation to being cut off eternally when those killed get a resurrection after Armageddon?
Finally, Jesus referred to this 42 month long hour of Satans tyranny ,during which the mark of the beast is forced, as a “test”Rev 3:10.
The implication of that statement is that everyone has the opportunity to pass or fail that test.
I believe that the door for salvation officially closes when Jehovah and Jesus determine that there is no one left to salvage.
He’ll give everyone the benefit of the doubt until their hearts prove otherwise.
With eternal destinies at stake, would we expect anything less from the God of love?
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
Sorry, but that still doesn't answer the question. While there have always been tribulations (see Acts 14:22). There is only ONE Great Tribulation, and there is nothing to suggest that the 144,000 go THROUGH it.

As I see it, the number 4 represents universal, or completeness, think of a square, where all sides meet. The fact that Revelations 7 speaks of the four corners of the earth is probably why many in those days thought the world was flat, but I digress. The four angels are "standing at the four corners of the earth."

They are the same forces which control mankind in the northern, eastern, western and southern hemispheres. "Standing" is frequently a symbol for reigning, and these four forces do indeed control every facet of the world. They control everyone, regardless of where on the face of the earth they dwell.

In Revelation 9:14, 15, we hear a voice (vs 13) saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet,

“Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.
As you know Revelation is a book of symbols, so things aren't always what they seem. When we think of angels we think spirit beings, but they are messengers, and as messengers, they can be human or angelic. In this case, I believe the angels represent something totally different, they represent "agencies" or the four basic pillars of society, that is 1. social, 2. financial, 3. political and 4. the ecclesiastical systems.

"Wind" is a symbol of war or strife. Think of the expression "the winds of war." The fact that there are four seems to tell me that strife can and will eventually affect all four of these forces - society, economics, politics and religion. These four winds are a picture of the strife that will affect society - man's basic everyday functions.

It's common to think of a whirlwind when considering this verse. Four winds blowing from four directions will, at the point of meeting, create a tornado or cyclonic episodes. Both Isaiah 21 and Zechariah 9 speak of whirlwinds. The four winds reference seem to be there to say that all four functions of man's governance will experience strife, not necessarily that a hurricane is meant.

In Rev 7:1 we're told that the winds are held back, so that they "should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree." These three are not literal but symbolic. When we think of "earth" we think of society, but this is just one segment of society, because "sea" and "trees" are also part of society. Earth here seems to symbolize that segment of society that rules humanity. The powerful who wish to cultivate that power and never give it up.

"Sea" represents the masses. Humanity in general, ordinary people. While "trees" according to both the Old and New Testament symbolize nations, individuals of prominence or institutions. Trees are notable. I believe in this verse they represent notable individuals, people whose influence is significant beyond institutions or governments. Think of Martin Luther King, Jr. Einstein, Mandela and others. True Christians should be "trees" but due to their place in life are not very noticeable. (see Psalm 1:3)

So these four agencies, or angels, as long as they remain stable and are allowed to function, hold back the winds of trouble and afford a measure of protection from the lawlessness and anarchy that would immediately result from the breakdown, or removal, of any one of them. The financial pillar has been badly shaken these past few years, sweeping the entire civilized world. The end of the present civilization will come when all four pillars fall, the result will be a whirlwind of anarchy, such as never before has been witnessed. Before that takes place, all the servants of God, (the remaining ones of the 144,000) the anointed still in the flesh will have been sealed and the door will be shut, the elect are complete, the mystery of God is finished.
When introducing the Great Company, Crowd, Multitude (pick your choice) it says of them in verse 14: "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation." The 144,000 are not mentioned among them.
KingdomLeast said: Sorry, but that still doesn't answer the question. While there have always been tribulations (see Acts 14:22). There is only ONE Great Tribulation, and there is nothing to suggest that the 144,000 go THROUGH it.

Sorry to disappoint you but the Bible disagrees with your personal assessment.

Luke 22:31

31 “Simon, Simon, look! Satana has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat.b

Revelation 12:17

17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, a and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness*b to Jesus.

Revelation13:​

7 And there was granted+ it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,*+ and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.​

1 Corinthians2:​

14 But a physical* man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them],+ because they are examined spiritually.​

Matthew7:​

7 “Keep on asking,+ and it will be given YOU; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking,+ and it will be opened to YOU. 8 For everyone asking receives,+ and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it will be opened. 9 Indeed, who is the man among YOU whom his son+ asks for bread—he will not hand him a stone, will he?​

 
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Bk Kevin

Well-known member
You make some interesting points here but you fail to mention the 42 month long reign of the eighth king which starts when the tribulation is cut short when the opportunity to take or reject the mark of the beast is forced.
Kind of an important detail you omitted.
You say that before the tribulation starts that the earthly brothers of Jesus are sealed and that the door of salvation is officially closed.
How are those destined to be sealed refined by Jehovah before the global catastrophe in a world’s business as usual atmosphere?
In reality the “two witnesses” aren’t even commissioned for their work of prophesying to the kings of the earth until after the time of great woe has been suspended.
“So I took the little book from the angel’s hand and ate it, and in my mouth it was as sweet as honey; but once I had swallowed it, my stomach was bitter. Then they said to me, “You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and languages and kings.”
Rev.10.10,11
The actual separating of the sheep and goats can’t occur until this eighth kings rule begins because it can only be during this 42 month long period when Jesus brothers are persecuted and imprisoned and opportunities by the other sheep to minister to these brothers of Jesus, as the prophecy in Matthew 25 reveals, will present themselves.
Besides this, the whole purpose of this eighth kings rule will be for Jehovah to force the ages old issue of universal sovereignty and provide the opportunity for every survivor of the great tribulation to either accept His agency of rule as then expressed through Jesus, and the 144000 co rulers, or Satans global tyrant the eighth king.
The divinely empowered 7000
(thanks Kevin for that clarification) sealed brothers of Jesus will bring this issue into clear unmistakeable focus for all the world to see and for however long into the eighth kings 42 month long rule he is permitted to force the mark on people, likewise the opportunity to reject it and remain in the Lambs book of life will, in my opinion, still exist.
So the whole “door to salvation being closed” when the tribulation begins is a WT fable and inconsistent with Jehovahs consistent pattern of mercy which throughout history was extended after the rod of His discipline was applied to His peoples backside.
Additionally, Robert has pointed out that those killed during the ride of the horsemen of the apocalypse end up in Hades which is Adamic death from which a resurrection is possible. How can Jehovah condemn those still living after the tribulation to being cut off eternally when those killed get a resurrection after Armageddon?
Finally, Jesus referred to this 42 month long hour of Satans tyranny ,during which the mark of the beast is forced, as a “test”Rev 3:10.
The implication of that statement is that everyone has the opportunity to pass or fail that test.
I believe that the door for salvation officially closes when Jehovah and Jesus determine that there is no one left to salvage.
He’ll give everyone the benefit of the doubt until their hearts prove otherwise.
With eternal destinies at stake, would we expect anything less from the God of love?

More scriptures to go along with your thoughts.​

Revelation13:​

3 And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke+ got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 4 And they worshiped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshiped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?” 5 And a mouth speaking great things+ and blasphemies was given it,+ and authority to act forty-two months+ was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies+ against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence,* even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted+ it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,*+ and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it;* the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll+ of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered,+ from the founding* of the world.+

 
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kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
kenmuldoon55 said: Sorry, but that still doesn't answer the question. While there have always been tribulations (see Acts 14:22). There is only ONE Great Tribulation, and there is nothing to suggest that the 144,000 go THROUGH it.

Sorry to disappoint you but the Bible disagrees with your personal assessment.

Luke 22:31

31 “Simon, Simon, look! Satana has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat.b

Revelation 12:17

17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, a and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness*b to Jesus.

Revelation13:​

7 And there was granted+ it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,*+ and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.​

1 Corinthians2:​

14 But a physical* man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them],+ because they are examined spiritually.​

Matthew7:​

7 “Keep on asking,+ and it will be given YOU; keep on seeking, and YOU will find; keep on knocking,+ and it will be opened to YOU. 8 For everyone asking receives,+ and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking it will be opened. 9 Indeed, who is the man among YOU whom his son+ asks for bread—he will not hand him a stone, will he?​

Great scriptures Kevin thanks for posting them.
Ya know there seems to be a connection to a person who seeks truth and an ungodly person who ignores it.
Jesus tells the one seeking to keep seeking repeatedly in order to find the reward.
On the other hand, for the ungodly, Jehovah appears to keep on knocking at a persons heart and reason by exposing such persons to increasing degrees of hardships and suffering.
How long did Noah warn his pre flood contemporaries before it was too late! Was it a century or more? Seeing how the pre flood world had become saturated in violence who could argue that there must’ve been some who could’ve been moved to obedience to Jehovahs entreaties through Noah. The opportunity existed for quite some time.
He did this with Pharaoh in Egypt with each plague becoming worse than the previous.
Sure his heart was hardened by Jehovah to not respond favorably but in the end a mixed company of non Jews left Egypt with them obviously moved by what they had witnessed.
Then there’s the centuries leading up to Jerusalems demise when Jehovah commissioned Prophet after Prophet to turn His errant people from their wicked course even offering escape once the Babylonian siege was in full swing.
When the eighth kings rule begins I just can’t see Jehovah and His son departing from their usual method of applying discomfort and suffering to get people to wake up and attain to salvation.
The eighth kings rule will eventually become the siege of sieges against any holding fast their devotion to Jehovah.
At first tribulation survivors will admire the beast on account of it speaking like a benevolent lamb.
At some point though, when this lamb bares its teeth and begins to speak as a dragon, Jehovah will lift the veil on this deception in the hopes that at least some may reject and see this beast government for the Satanic deception that it will be.
Those that refuse to see will deserve what’s coming for them.
 
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Bk Kevin

Well-known member
Great scriptures Kevin thanks for posting them.
Ya know there seems to be a connection to a person who seeks truth and an ungodly person who ignores it.
Jesus tells the one seeking to keep seeking repeatedly in order to find the reward.
On the other hand, for the ungodly, Jehovah appears to keep on knocking at a persons heart and reason by exposing such persons to increasing degrees of hardships and suffering.
How long did Noah warn his pre flood contemporaries before it was too late! Was it a century or more? Seeing how the pre flood world had become saturated in violence who could argue that there must’ve been some who could’ve been moved to obedience to Jehovahs entreaties through Noah. The opportunity existed for quite some time.
He did this with Pharaoh in Egypt with each plague becoming worse than the previous.
Sure his heart was hardened by Jehovah to not respond favorably but in the end a mixed company of non Jews left Egypt with them obviously moved by what they had witnessed.
Then there’s the centuries leading up to Jerusalems demise when Jehovah commissioned Prophet after Prophet to turn His errant people from their wicked course even offering escape once the Babylonian siege was in full swing.
When the eighth kings rule begins I just can’t see Jehovah and His son departing from their usual method of applying discomfort and suffering to get people to wake up and attain to salvation.
The eighth kings rule will eventually become the siege of sieges against any holding fast their devotion to Jehovah.
At first tribulation survivors will admire the beast on account of it speaking like a benevolent lamb.
At some point though, when this lamb bares its teeth and begins to speak as a dragon, Jehovah will lift the veil on this deception in the hopes that at least some may reject and see this beast government for the Satanic deception that it will be.
Those that refuse to see will deserve what’s coming for them.

How much longer will Jehovah extend the Olive Branch of reconciliation. I'm afraid not much longer and it's apparent that only terror will make them understand

James4:​

7 Therefore, subject yourselves to God;g but oppose the Devil,h and he will flee from you.i 8 Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you.j Cleanse your hands, you sinners,k and purify your hearts,l you indecisive ones. 9 Give way to misery and mourn and weep.m Let your laughter be turned into mourning, and your joy into despair. 10 Humble yourselves in the eyes of Jehovah,*n and he will exalt you.o

Isaiah28:​

19 As often as it passes through,It will sweep you away;tFor it will pass through morning after morning,During the day and during the night.Only terror will make them understand what was heard.”*

 

KingdomLeast

Well-known member
Gods chosen (those to be sealed) have to be refined first in the crucible of Jehovah's anger. How will that refining happen if they are already sealed before the great tribulation (their refinement period) begins.
Just wondering..
I should add, that there is no further refinement once the elect is sealed. The seal is confirmation that they have made their "calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10) It's that still small voice that tells them "Well done, good and faithful servant." Now in regards the "great tribulation", as I stated before, there's nothing in this account that specifically state the elect, and by elect I mean the remaining ones, the feet members of the Body of Christ, will go through THE great tribulation. Besides I didn't know Jehovah was angry at the elect.

However, when we look at the account of Elijah and Elisha in 2 Kings 2, which I believe is a picture of the separation of the Little Flock and the Great Crowd, notice what it says starting in verse 8 how Elijah smote the waters with his mantle, and they crossed over, were told in verse 10 "as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." This tells me that the four winds are held back for the sake of the elect. The four winds may be let loose, while the two walk, Elijah is taken in the whirlwind. I don't believe in a rapture, but they are taken in death, in the same way Moses went up to the mountain, but never came down, as the Lord took him. Another scenario would be the experiences of Noah. In Genesis 7, Jehovah tells Noah to go into the ark, verse 4 tells us that they were in the ark for seven days before the first raindrop fell. Noah and his family escaped the tribulation that was to befall the world of mankind at that time.

Just a thought
 
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A B

Well-known member
According to Rev 7:1-3. the Great Tribulation ISN'T cut short. It's held back, so it doesn't start until the 144,000 are sealed. When they're sealed, then the four winds are let loose.

Let me ask an additional question If I may. What do the Four Winds represent to you?
The four winds often get conflated with the Great Tribulation but that they are separate can be seen by the following: Place the conversations in Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 side by side. Remembering that the Bible was not written with chapters and verses, place the end of Revelation chapter 6 and the beginning of chapter 7 next to the other three columns. You will see how the events in Revelation 6 and 7 overlap and the releasing of the 4 winds is after the Great Tribulation. It is especially helpful if you try to color code the similar passages.
 

Carl

Well-known member
That is what it says. Matthew 22:14

It seems that many may feel 'they' are chosen 'now', but until the sealing occurs, they are not truly anointed now, just hopefuls. Like it says, MANY are called but FEW are chosen. I guess meaning that well over the total number were called but only the exact number from those will end up being who get chosen/anointed.
I may be way off base here, but to me Matthew 22 seems to be Jesus describing the invitation of the non-anointed guests of the wedding, because you don't invite the wedding party to their own wedding. The bride is the anointed, while the guests are the non-anointed.
 

Carl

Well-known member
Your questions left me thinking a little deeper about the objectives of the preaching work vs how, over time, it's been structured and formalized into a less joyful christian duty.

I believe RK highlights how JW's did well in globally sharing bible teachings of which has surpassed 200 countries. The noble and initial intent was to spread bible teachings to as many as possible, and yes, before Armaggedon (Acts 1:8; Matthew 28:19,20). I believe there is no argument in that this is something Jesus commanded his followers to do. The parts that has been negatively impacted from all the changes in the JW org are what I'd like to highlight.

The preaching work is significantly and consistently pushed on JWs at meetings. So much so, that it becomes burdensome and draining to hear. When you excessively hear that you must or need to be preaching and examples of other's who do way more than you do are constantly presented, it is stressful and emotionally draining. You're never doing enough, never sacrificing enough, or there is always another area you could make yourself available to do. The pandemic presented approved alternative non-physical ways of fulfilling this work; add-in the no time requirement for publishers now; consequently, what do you think publishers are pondering? Oh, so, door-to-door isn't the only way to comply, it can be done remotely, informally, non-verbally, etc? Why the constant push to physically fulfill this work?

Many are feeling tired and worn from dealing with this new normal and unstable economic and political climate to be asked to keep doing more. It is interesting that circuit overseer's rarely have bible study(ies) as they are constantly on-the-move, but yet, they are considered to be full-time minister's?:unsure: Bethel workers as well. So, the org has created a broken record of preach, preach, preach but yet, the majority of the world has no excuse to not be able to read the bible, access spiritual materials and pray to God. What is needed more now than ever is a central point of truth, where all of us can go to and 100% believe & trust... yes... that is the Bible.

Nonetheless, a group of supportive spiritually-minded friends is helpful in keeping up your joy in speaking with other's about God's kingdom and it being the only true solution to everything.
The preaching work should have always been between the individual and Jehovah. He alone can read our intentions, so He alone knows whether one person's 5 hours is 100% effort, while another person's 20 hours is purely meant to elevate their status within the organization. I felt a tremendous pressure to put in hours for the WT and not necessarily for Jehovah. I didn't like keeping track of my time, it felt disingenuous to me.
 

Carl

Well-known member
How many people will die at Armageddon? Answer.This is the amount of blood spilled at the winepress of God.Rev14:20.It will be 1600 stadia long .(one stadia equals 606 feet)As high as the brildes (est.5 feet tall)of the horses(est.4 feet wide) .Divide by the amount of blood in a human body.Yes there will be blood .Rev14:20
I'm working on a very, VERY conservative estimate of a few million surviving Armageddon. I hope & pray I'm wrong, and that everyone I know will make it, but I'm not willing to gamble with my life. Therefore, I'm trying to be perfect as Jesus instructed at Matthew 5:48 "You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Obviously, we know this is impossible, but with Jehovah nothing is impossible. So, I've looked to the Bible for instructions on what constitutes approved and unapproved behavior. Galatians 5:19-23 gives us a clue.

A Liberal Christian will say we just need to look to John 3:16, while a Conservative Christian such as myself goes beyond this verse. At the risk of sounding self-righteous, the more I follow Galatians 5:22-23 "On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law" and get away from Galatians 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom" the more comfortably I sleep at night waiting for the Kingdom to come. I can testify that my life has gotten considerably more peaceful the more I align my will with Jehovah's.
 
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