The purpose of the preaching work

Carl

Well-known member
I have contended with others on here that when the GT hits, salvation is no longer available to those who have not already responded. to the message. The article BK Keven shared agrees, I think. Maybe I need to read again prehaps.
I think the anointed are sealed before the HOT, based on their actions during the POD (pangs of distress). Salvation for the non-anointed is open up to the point the MOTB is accepted. When is it rolled out? During the HOT. I believe the GT is the HOT, but others may think differently, and I'm OK with that. It's way more important to be in alignment concerning what the MOTB is, verse what we call the period it's rolled out.
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
The four winds may be let loose, while the two walk, Elijah is taken in the whirlwind. I don't believe in a rapture, but they are taken in death
This isn't true. Elijah showed up later in a different part of the kingdom to preach to a king.

Other Bible translations usually say that Elijah was taken ‘into the heavens.’ And because of this, most people believe that he went into the presence of God (heaven). Yet, as you’ll notice in this translation’s Note, ‘The Heavens or Sky, the Earth or the Land?,’ Elijah simply flew (on the chariot) into the SKY… Because that’s what the Greek word ourano (and the equivalent Hebrew word, has·sa·ma·yim) really means. And (in harmony with John 3:13) notice that he didn’t actually go to heaven, because King JehoRam later received a letter from Elijah.
(See 2 Chronicles 21:12.)

Therefore, God had apparently used the celestial chariot to take him to another place here on the earth.

 

KingdomLeast

Well-known member
You make some interesting points here but you fail to mention the 42 month long reign of the eighth king which starts when the tribulation is cut short when the opportunity to take or reject the mark of the beast is forced.
Kind of an important detail you omitted.
I didn't omit it, I just didn't think it was relevant to this discussion. You see I have a completely different view of the 42 months and the books of Daniel and Revelation that has nothing to do with fitting the Jehovah's Witness organization into every prophecy. I stopped reading Watchtower literature over 30 years ago. I don't think there's enough space on this site for me to explain my views. I'll just say that I am a dispensationalist.
You say that before the tribulation starts that the earthly brothers of Jesus are sealed and that the door of salvation is officially closed.
No, that's not what I said. The door I was speaking of is the door to the high calling. We're discussing the 144,000 and there's only one door that individuals are invited too.
How are those destined to be sealed refined by Jehovah before the global catastrophe in a world’s business as usual atmosphere?
The elect have been refining themselves since the day they consecrated themselves to the Lord. Jesus said "In the world you will have tribulation." (John 16:33) The sealing is God's way of saying, "well good and faithful servant"
 

KingdomLeast

Well-known member
The four winds often get conflated with the Great Tribulation but that they are separate can be seen by the following: Place the conversations in Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 side by side. Remembering that the Bible was not written with chapters and verses, place the end of Revelation chapter 6 and the beginning of chapter 7 next to the other three columns. You will see how the events in Revelation 6 and 7 overlap and the releasing of the 4 winds is after the Great Tribulation. It is especially helpful if you try to color code the similar passages.
Sorry, we'd have to disagree on that. The loosing of the four winds is what caused the great tribulation.
 

KingdomLeast

Well-known member
I may be way off base here, but to me Matthew 22 seems to be Jesus describing the invitation of the non-anointed guests of the wedding, because you don't invite the wedding party to their own wedding. The bride is the anointed, while the guests are the non-anointed.
Where do you see "the invitation of the non-anointed guests of the wedding?"
 

Carl

Well-known member
Where do you see "the invitation of the non-anointed guests of the wedding?"
The way I read Matthew 22 is those originally invited were the Israelites, but they rejected Jehovah's prophets and ultimately killed Jesus. So the king sent his slaves to invite everyone (gentiles) to the marriage feast. The king is Jehovah, the slaves are the anointed bride of Christ, and the guests are the GC. That's how I read it anyway.
 

KingdomLeast

Well-known member
This isn't true. Elijah showed up later in a different part of the kingdom to preach to a king.

Other Bible translations usually say that Elijah was taken ‘into the heavens.’ And because of this, most people believe that he went into the presence of God (heaven). Yet, as you’ll notice in this translation’s Note, ‘The Heavens or Sky, the Earth or the Land?,’ Elijah simply flew (on the chariot) into the SKY… Because that’s what the Greek word ourano (and the equivalent Hebrew word, has·sa·ma·yim) really means. And (in harmony with John 3:13) notice that he didn’t actually go to heaven, because King JehoRam later received a letter from Elijah.
(See 2 Chronicles 21:12.)

Therefore, God had apparently used the celestial chariot to take him to another place here on the earth.
I never said he went to heaven, I said he was taken in a whirlwind and what that whirlwind symbolized.
 

Frank D

Well-known member
Tell me, where do the Scriptures speak of the "elect" (144,000) going through the great tribulation? Only the Great Company go through the Great Tribulation

[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]

[9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”]

[9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.]

[4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]

[9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.]
 

kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
I didn't omit it, I just didn't think it was relevant to this discussion. You see I have a completely different view of the 42 months and the books of Daniel and Revelation that has nothing to do with fitting the Jehovah's Witness organization into every prophecy. I stopped reading Watchtower literature over 30 years ago. I don't think there's enough space on this site for me to explain my views. I'll just say that I am a dispensationalist.

No, that's not what I said. The door I was speaking of is the door to the high calling. We're discussing the 144,000 and there's only one door that individuals are invited too.

The elect have been refining themselves since the day they consecrated themselves to the Lord. Jesus said "In the world you will have tribulation." (John 16:33) The sealing is God's way of saying, "well good and faithful servant"





The first four chapters of Revelation highlight the need for repentance on the part of Jehovah's anointed people living WHEN?
IN THE LORDS DAY!
Who, if not the modern-day congregation bearing the name of God, would Jesus be referring to here?
You say:
"You see I have a completely different view of the 42 months and the books of Daniel and Revelation that has nothing to do with fitting the Jehovah's Witness organization into every prophecy".
I totally disagree simply because they are the "ONLY" organization on earth that bear the personal name of God and have (because of their apostacy) brought significant reproach upon Him more so than the rest of Christendom.
Your assertion that Revelation's prophecies have no relevancy in connection with this apostacy (by JW's), despite the fact Jehovah does bring judgement on His people first because of this very issue, is puzzling.
 

KingdomLeast

Well-known member
The first four chapters of Revelation highlight the need for repentance on the part of Jehovah's anointed people living WHEN?
IN THE LORDS DAY!
And your point is?
Who, if not the modern-day congregation bearing the name of God, would Jesus be referring to here? I totally disagree simply because they are the "ONLY" organization on earth that bear the personal name of God and have (because of their apostacy) brought significant reproach upon Him more so than the rest of Christendom.
Hmmm ... Depending on the name Jehovah or Yahweh. You do know there are dozens of groups out there that bear his name. Just google "Sacred Name groups"

I don't believe belonging to a denomination saves you. Jesus saves you, he died for you. He called me and I answered the call, Yes, I found basic Truths through the Witnesses, but after my spirit begettal, he told me "get out of her" and so I did. If salvation was hinged on belonging to "Jehovah's Visible Organization" I would have stayed and suffered along with it, but salvation is in Jesus only, that was Jehovah's arrangement. He calls us individually and we walk with Him.

Your assertion that Revelation's prophecies have no relevancy in connection with this apostacy (by JW's), despite the fact Jehovah does bring judgement on His people first because of this very issue, is puzzling.
The Lord's people were in Christendom/Babylon and He said to get out of it, He didn't say to form a Little Babylon. The judgements is against Christendom.
 

kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
These are not warnings directed to any religion in apostate Christendom on account of Jesus indicating in Chapter 2 of Revelation these congregations once had zeal and love for truth and would be put to the test by Satan.

"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
" Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown". Rev 2:8

“To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:
These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. 13 I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives. Rev 2:12,13

“To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. Rev 2:18,19

"You do know there are dozens of groups out there that bear his name. Just google "Sacred Name groups"
You're muddying the water with that statement.
These obscure groups pale into insignificance compared to WT.
 

StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
Regarding when to flee the Watchtower and more>
One of the reasoning points used in the video is:

"The first-century disciples/apostles did not view the Jewish temple/synagogues as "the disgusting thing" and they didn't flee from it, instead, they were in the synagogues regularly preaching in it, so therefore, the modern day application is to stay in the JW organization until the disgusting thing stands in it".

I know I took liberties and paraphrased what Robert said, but I think the main points are there. Here's the problem: the apostles/disciples were NOT going to synagogues regularly to WORSHIP there as quiet observers pretending to go along as "PIMO's". They went there and stood up and taught the TRUTH and exposed the Jewish system of things as incorrect and told their audiences that they needed to CHANGE in order to be saved.

Are JW's doing that now? No. If they tried, they'd get the microphones cut and would be DF'd. That's what happened to Paul, Peter and the rest of the disciples of the first century. They got kicked out of the synagogues and even certain cities for their teachings. Now, if modern day ex-JW's want to do that, then fine. I just don't think that they would be able to get away with it. So what do they do? They start Youtube channels and blogs and preach their message that way.

I personally don't think that Matthew 24:14 will even start until the 3.5 years begins. Christ's first coming and ministry was 3.5 years long and his disciples who later became the anointed joined him and later continued his work and Christ's second coming will be another 3.5 year ministry that his anointed disciples and the great crowd will join in as well. That preaching work WILL cover the whole globe unlike the current one that WT is doing which is not reaching all of China or India or other remote places.

Just my humble opinion to add to the mix....
 

kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
Tell me, where do the Scriptures speak of the "elect" (144,000) going through the great tribulation? Only the Great Company go through the Great tribulation.
If you're referring to "coming through Armageddon" which marks the conclusion of the Great Tribulation, then yes I agree those 7000 sealed brothers of Jesus don't for they will at that time have all been martyred. The beginning part of the Great Tribulation, which on account of its severity has to be cut short, is what they do go through and as a result are then refined and sealed.
How do they end up being commissioned by Jesus to prophecy to the nations during the 42 months of the eighth king's rule if they don't come through that initial phase of the Great Tribulation?
Rev 10:11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”
They are commissioned after their sealing.
It is their prophesying/reports from the east that disturb this last king's rule and sets him off into a genocidal rage which leads to his demise.
Dan 11:44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him".
 

Frank D

Well-known member
Your assertion that Revelation's prophecies have no relevancy in connection with this apostacy (by JW's), despite the fact Jehovah does bring judgement on His people first because of this very issue, is puzzling.
What is 'this apostasy' by JWs that you speak of?

In regard to judgment on his people/house, what event in the Bible is it that fulfills this judgment that first starts on his people/house?
Is it WW3?
Is it the 42-month rule of the 8th king?
Is it something other?

Has the KOTN been put in place yet?
If not, then has the KOTN lead any into this said apostasy yet?
What is this said apostasy by the KOTN?
 
Last edited:

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
One of the reasoning points used in the video is:

"The first-century disciples/apostles did not view the Jewish temple/synagogues as "the disgusting thing" and they didn't flee from it, instead, they were in the synagogues regularly preaching in it, so therefore, the modern day application is to stay in the JW organization until the disgusting thing stands in it".

I know I took liberties and paraphrased what Robert said, but I think the main points are there. Here's the problem: the apostles/disciples were NOT going to synagogues regularly to WORSHIP there as quiet observers pretending to go along as "PIMO's". They went there and stood up and taught the TRUTH and exposed the Jewish system of things as incorrect and told their audiences that they needed to CHANGE in order to be saved.

Are JW's doing that now? No. If they tried, they'd get the microphones cut and would be DF'd. That's what happened to Paul, Peter and the rest of the disciples of the first century. They got kicked out of the synagogues and even certain cities for their teachings. Now, if modern day ex-JW's want to do that, then fine. I just don't think that they would be able to get away with it. So what do they do? They start Youtube channels and blogs and preach their message that way.

I personally don't think that Matthew 24:14 will even start until the 3.5 years begins. Christ's first coming and ministry was 3.5 years long and his disciples who later became the anointed joined him and later continued his work and Christ's second coming will be another 3.5 year ministry that his anointed disciples and the great crowd will join in as well. That preaching work WILL cover the whole globe unlike the current one that WT is doing which is not reaching all of China or India or other remote places.

Just my humble opinion to add to the mix....
More food for thought on the subject.

The Watchtower and the disgusting thing> https://e-watchman.com/the-watchtower-and-the-disgusting-thing/

The Disgusting Thing that Causes Desolation> https://e-watchman.com/disgusting-thing-causes-desolation/

Is the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses the disgusting thing?> https://e-watchman.com/is-the-governing-body-the-disgusting-thing/

 

kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
What is 'this apostacy' by JWs that you speak of?

In regard to judgment on his people/house, what event in the Bible is it that fulfills this judgment that first starts on his people/house?
Is it WW3?
Is it the 42-month rule of the 8th king?
Is it something other?

Has the KOTN been put in place yet?
If not, then has the KOTN lead any into this said apostacy yet?
What is this said apostacy by the KOTN?
Read Robert Kings book,
like most on this forum have,you might learn a thing or two.
 
Top