Chapter 6 - The Sign

kirmmy

Well-known member
That's the way I was figuring it. So I don't see that explanation fitting. I'm not convinced that it's Jesus either though. Isn't Jesus supposed to return post GT also? Or what am I missing? Then too Jesus is the lamb that is opening the seals of the scroll, so can he be in two places at once? Opening the seals of the
scroll and riding the white horse?
Just one of those things that get me wondering. Not going to affect my faith one way or the other, but a curiosity none the less.
I didn't want to upset anyone with my post. I just thought it was an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of before. TBH, I think Revvzone did a thread about it here some time back.

I could see it being true but I will go with RK's explanation for now. Some of the Bible prophecies we won't understand until after they're fulfilled.
 

Patricia

Well-known member
I could see it being true but I will go with RK's explanation for now. Some of the Bible prophecies we won't understand until after they're fulfilled.
Yeah, I don't have a better interpretation so I will have to just wait and see. 🙂
Don't stop posting "interesting" things you come across though. It's good to get other views and then be able to decide what makes more sense with God's word as a whole. Maybe we find a new bit of truth or maybe we reinforce the truth we already have. I see it as a win either way, as long as I don't waste too much time on things that won't really matter in the end. I like to🤔🧐🔬
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
These signs when fulfilled in entirety will give undoubted realisation. The sign of the son of man will be so profoundly evident giving rise to the kings of the earth and high officials, millitary commanders, rich, poor, free and enslaved cry to the mountains and the rock like institutions and organisations saying 'Hide us from the one seated on the throne and from the lamb for thier day has come'! Rev 6:15-17.
Janet Yellen of U.S Treasury on Jan 13th sent letter to House speaker Mcarthy saying "Treasury will hit debt ceiling Jan 19th and is in threat of default!" ...9min in
 

SusanB

Well-known member
I didn't want to upset anyone with my post. I just thought it was an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of before. TBH, I think Revvzone did a thread about it here some time back.

I could see it being true but I will go with RK's explanation for now. Some of the Bible prophecies we won't understand until after they're fulfilled.
Well your Avatar is that ”You Make Kitty Scared”! Just joking. Different perspectives are interesting to consider.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
This is amazing to me to realize when Jesus said the preaching would have to be completed FIRST he was talking about it taking place before the persecution that Jesus was foretelling and yet even when some take their stand before governors and kings it will still be a witness. Notice what Robert King says in Chapter 6, “Please note that Jesus said that the good news had to be preached first. “First,” before what? The good news is preached to the nations first before Christians are delivered up to the courts and rulers in order to give them a final witness.”

If you look at the context in Mark Chapter 13, that is exactly the context and so is the encouragement to endure to the end.

Mark 13:9-13: “As for you, look out for yourselves. People will hand you over to local courts, and you will be beaten in synagogues and be put on the stand before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them. Also, in all the nations, the good news has to be preached first. And when they are taking you to hand you over, do not be anxious beforehand about what to say; but whatever is given you in that hour, say this, for you are not the ones speaking, but the holy spirit is. Furthermore, brother will deliver brother over to death, and a father a child, and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all people on account of my name. But the one who has endured to the end will be saved.”
 

SusanB

Well-known member
This paragraph in Chapter 6 helps me to better understand the scriptures that speak of lawlessness:

In each of the cited texts “lawlessness” was used in reference to spiritual corruption and hypocrisy among those who claimed to serve God. It is apparent, then, Jesus was foretelling an increasing of hypocrisy and outright apostasy in his congregation as an aspect of the sign—not an increasing of criminal activity in the world. The cooling off of the love of many and the increasing of lawlessness must occur among those who formally loved God and were faithful to him.”

Here are some scriptures that contain the term “lawlessness”.

Matthew 7:23

And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Matthew 13:41

The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness,

Matthew 23:28

In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Matthew 24:12

and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold.

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.
 

White Stone

Well-known member
It is interesting indeed. Similar to something floating around in my mind. Gotta think about this a while. Aren't the 4 horseman part of the GT? And doesn't the 8th King show up and a start ruling at the end of GT and rule for the 3 1/2 yrs? 🤔
Rather, the 8th king shows up that starts the great tribulation for 3 1/2 years.(Revelation 13:1-7) At the end of the GT, the Son of Man will immediately come on/with the clouds.(Matthew 24:29-31) The GT is the start of the appointed times of the nations where they are given authority to trample Jerusalem, Jehovah’s people.(Luke 21:24; Revelation 13:5-7)
 

SusanB

Well-known member
This is my last commentary on ”The Sign” chapter and Brother Robert King has worded it so well I only need quote the last paragraph, which is a reminder we will need when the GT occurs.

“According to virtually every prophetic book in the Bible, the arrival of Christ will result in a massive sifting and refining of all Christians during a time of great distress. That is when the genuine sign of Christ’s presence will become evident. Afterwards, there will be an outpouring of spirit and truth that will impel the chastised and humbled to embark on an intense preaching campaign that will serve to put the world on notice that the kingdom has finally arrived — “and then the end will come.”
 

Shiloh

Well-known member
A year ago nuclear war was the furthest thing from everyone's mind. Then Russia invaded Ukraine, which, of course, they were goaded into doing by the Anglo-American war planners. Now talk of the possibility of nuclear war is commonplace. What a difference a year makes.
Boy oh boy, you can say that again, almost a year later and now we have the situation in the middle east fired up. I wonder how many more conflicts will arise?
 

wth

Member
Here is a link to the full chapter for reading and for audio: https://jehovah-is-king.com/sign/

Robert King talks about “the sign” having a very simple central feature and it’s a statement Jesus made that we all are likely extremely familiar with at Matthew 24:7-8: “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress”. I remember hearing it explained that the events of WW1, WW2, Spanish Flu, etc were like a fingerprint, a unique set of events signaling Jesus’ enthronement with his actual presence to come. But now I see that was as much of a misdirection of what we should be expecting as how Christendom promotes Easter and the resurrection. We certainly acknowledge that Jesus was resurrected and the wonderful meaning that has for his disciples but he specifically told us to commemorate his death. It seems to be the same type of misdirection by the Watchtower to point to 1914 as being Jesus‘ enthronement when the question being asked was the sign of his presence not his enthronement. Hopefully that makes sense.

Here is a link to Chapt








er 6, both the printed chapter and the audis-king.com/sign/There's


I diverge from RK on this point. What triggers the war in heaven? The birth of the Kingdom with Christ as King. And why is it called a male child? Because it reaches maturity when the final seal is awarded the faithful remnant of anointed. Then after that the crushing begins with the destruction of Babylon. The collapse of the UN and finally the rest of the nations. Another factor to consider, the four horseman of the Apocalypse begin with Jesus riding as King followed by war foodshortages etc. I think JW's got the basics right, but the timing wrong. Perhaps a dress rehearsal ?
Its the difference in knowing what the sign is and what the Presence is.There two different thing.What happened in 1914 was a sign .Like if your traveling from new York to LA.It tell you your destination. BUT YOUR NOT THERE YET.The presence it when you reached your destination.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
Its the difference in knowing what the sign is and what the Presence is.There two different thing.What happened in 1914 was a sign .Like if your traveling from new York to LA.It tell you your destination. BUT YOUR NOT THERE YET.The presence it when you reached your destination.
I think Robert King wrote something that really hit home with me. And I’ll paraphrase. When Jesus was relating the SIGN of his presence, did he intend for his followers to identify his presence with what they learned from a history book or what they personally would be eye witnesses of just before he came?
 

wth

Member
For the generation that would not pass away.It would be both things they learn from history and things they would eye-witness. Because the Sign would take mutigeneration but the Presence would happen at the Reveling .A short period of time.This would be the 1260 days.Were not there yet.So in summary the Sign is one thing The Presence is another
 

SusanB

Well-known member
For the generation that would not pass away.It would be both things they learn from history and things they would eye-witness. Because the Sign would take mutigeneration but the Presence would happen at the Reveling .A short period of time.This would be the 1260 days.Were not there yet.So in summary the Sign is one thing The Presence is another
I don’t agree. It sounds to me like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
For the generation that would not pass away.It would be both things they learn from history and things they would eye-witness. Because the Sign would take mutigeneration but the Presence would happen at the Reveling .A short period of time.This would be the 1260 days.Were not there yet.So in summary the Sign is one thing The Presence is another
Mankind's history has been filled with war, hunger and pestilence. So when did they see the sign? 70CE, 500CE, 700CE, etc, etc, etc, 1914, 1939...? As Robert has said on occasion; we've lived through 70 years of abject prosperity. So when did the Sign take place. It's simple. It hasn't.
 

Shiloh

Well-known member
This paragraph in Chapter 6 helps me to better understand the scriptures that speak of lawlessness:

In each of the cited texts “lawlessness” was used in reference to spiritual corruption and hypocrisy among those who claimed to serve God. It is apparent, then, Jesus was foretelling an increasing of hypocrisy and outright apostasy in his congregation as an aspect of the sign—not an increasing of criminal activity in the world. The cooling off of the love of many and the increasing of lawlessness must occur among those who formally loved God and were faithful to him.”

Here are some scriptures that contain the term “lawlessness”.

Matthew 7:23

And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Matthew 13:41

The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness,

Matthew 23:28

In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Matthew 24:12

and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold.

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.
The first time I heard a different understanding of the lawlessness mentioned in Matthew 24:12 was back in the early 1990's. It was at the book study right before the meeting a young brother was explaining what he heard happened back at Bethel when some brothers were studying the Bible alone and not using a the society's literature to guide them. When the elder showed up he quickly put the cabbash on the conversation. But the brother was saying that this lawlessness was among Jehovah's Witnesses. It made more sense to me. That should have served as a red flag but it didn't matter much to me at the time. The elder who ended the conversation said those brothers back at bethel were dismissed for apostasy. True lawlessness has to come from those who know Jehovah's righteous standards and stand in opposition to them, so those brothers were right, and dismissed on false charges.
 
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kirmmy

Well-known member
I don't think that means what you think it means. ROFLOL!
We had a CO that used that term when he was visiting (abject prosperity). He contrasted the wealth of our nation to nations he spent many years in, being a missionary. He said they lived in abject poverty while we lived in abject prosperity, so what was our excuse for not doing more.

Yes, I know it doesn't make sense but it's a play on the words and their meaning.

Besides, look at the rich. Do they really look all that happy to you? Abject Prosperity.
 

DR75 less 1

Well-known member
I remember hearing it explained that the events of WW1, WW2, Spanish Flu, etc were like a fingerprint,

The "blind" wannabe investigators dusted the wrong crime scene for prints. The concept is on the money but their timing is off just a bit. Not only that but 2 different scenes 10 years apart are allegedly part of the same print? Goodnight. sounds like the CIA building a case around planted incriminating evidence..
 
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