The Third Babylon

So, I listened to this talk I found on the Food for Thinking Jehovah's Witnesses website, which speaks about THE THREE BABYLONS.

1. The original Babylon (the ancient city)
2. Babylon the Great (Papacy)
3. Little Babylon (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society)

The parallels are pretty amazing. He discusses 7 points.

1. True believers are labeled as "apostates."
2. A strong organization develops.
3. A strong worship of an earthly organization develops.
4. Claims of divine inspiration.
5. Restricted views of salvation are promulgated.
6. Threats of divine wrath against non-believers.
7. Other false doctrine and practices are introduced.

Click on the link: THE THREE BABYLONS

 

[Melinda Riling]

So, I listened to this talk I found on the Food for Thinking Jehovah's Witnesses website, which speaks about THE THREE BABYLONS.

1. The original Babylon (the ancient city)
2. Babylon the Great (Papacy)
3. Little Babylon (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society)

The parallels are pretty amazing. He discusses 7 points.

1. True believers are labeled as "apostates."
2. A strong organization develops.
3. A strong worship of an earthly organization develops.
4. Claims of divine inspiration.
5. Restricted views of salvation are promulgated.
6. Threats of divine wrath against non-believers.
7. Other false doctrine and practices are introduced.

Click on the link: THE THREE BABYLONS

I listened to the whole talk. What religion does this brother represent? He mentions Brother Russell many times but not once mentions Jehovahs name. He nailed every point about what has happened to the Watchtower and his comparisons to the 2 Babylon Book was spot on.

 

[Seadog]

I listened to the whole talk. What religion does this brother represent? He mentions Brother Russell many times but not once mentions Jehovahs name. He nailed every point about what has happened to the Watchtower and his comparisons to the 2 Babylon Book was spot on.

Agree M. I gathered the talk was early 1990 so imagine if that boy was up to speed with recent events!! Well worth a listen from about minute 20 on

 

[MickHewitt]

Agree M. I gathered the talk was early 1990 so imagine if that boy was up to speed with recent events!! Well worth a listen from about minute 20 on

I wonder if they are part of the existing breakaway Bible Students who disbanded after death of Russell?

 

[Seadog]

I wonder if they are part of the existing breakaway Bible Students who disbanded after death of Russell?

Yes the thought crossed my mind too. Basically he felt Russel was the 7th prophet or such and the apostasy started with Rutherford. The third Babylon (WT) started then. I think he referred to Russel’s writings several times with respect.
He built a strong case comparing the rise of the Catholic faith to that of WT particularly with the total capture of the individual.

 

[MickHewitt]

Yes the thought crossed my mind too. Basically he felt Russel was the 7th prophet or such and the apostasy started with Rutherford. The third Babylon (WT) started then. I think he referred to Russel’s writings several times with respect.
He built a strong case comparing the rise of the Catholic faith to that of WT particularly with the total capture of the individual.

Yes I found his take on the back door scenario engaging too!

 

[Watchman]

Listened to the first few minutes, he said greetings to Bible Student groups. So, he's definitely an old Russellite. "Little Babylon," hilarious

 

[Melinda Riling]

Listened to the first few minutes, he said greetings to Bible Student groups. So, he's definitely an old Russellite. "Little Babylon," hilarious

Didn’t the Bible Students recognize and use Jehovah’s name? Other than saying “Jehovah’s Witnesses” he never calls God Jehovah.

 

[Watchman]

Didn’t the Bible Students recognize and use Jehovah’s name? Other than saying “Jehovah’s Witnesses” he never calls God Jehovah.

Yes, Russell used the name of Jehovah and so did the original Bible Students.

 

[BagdadBill]

Didn’t the Bible Students recognize and use Jehovah’s name? Other than saying “Jehovah’s Witnesses” he never calls God Jehovah.

Around 1900 the usage of Jehovah's name was more common. I am only guessing but I think the pushing of God's name into the background has been a constant thing but never fully succeeding. Even now, Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only people speaking God's name but if you say it out loud people will typically connect the name to us.

 

[KingdomLeast]

I listened to the whole talk. What religion does this brother represent?.

I wonder if they are part of the existing breakaway Bible Students who disbanded after death of Russell?

Yes, He's a Bible Student.

Didn’t the Bible Students recognize and use Jehovah’s name? Other than saying “Jehovah’s Witnesses” he never calls God Jehovah.

Russell did use it in passing. But he didn't use it ad nauseam. I think because they had a close relationship with God, they just referred to Him as "father". Besides they were more Witnesses of Jesus, as they were following in His footsteps.

Yes, Russell used the name of Jehovah and so did the original Bible Students.

I guess perhaps they don't want to be associated with the Witnesses.

 

[KingdomLeast]

imagine if that boy was up to speed with recent events!!

When making comparisons, yes. Just think about the child abuse cases that both the Vatican and the Society share.

 

[Melinda Riling]

When making comparisons, yes. Just think about the child abuse cases that both the Vatican and the Society share.

That is a good point. The only two religions that are in in the main stream media … when it comes to pedophilia is Watchtower and the catholic Church

 

[KingdomLeast]

I found these notes on an old floppy (yes, floppy) and thought I would post it here under this thread as it seems to fit the parallel of the Papacy / Watchtower.

1. Centralized world-wide church government from which all official doctrine comes. The Pope and the Governing body.
2. A city where world headquarters permanently resides: Rome, Italy and Warwick, NY, USA
3. Authority of this "world organization" is not to be questioned.
4. Both consider God to be the head of the world organization.
5. Both the Pope and the Governing body both claim inspiration.
6. Both organizations are "spirit directed" by God.
7. A simple definition of both is as follows: "Definition of a Catholic/JW: 'Someone who accepts Rome/Brooklyn as God's visible spirit-directed theocratic organization upon the earth.
8. The official doctrines have dramatically changed over time.
9. Both claim "new light" or progressive revelation to explain doctrinal changes.
10. Both share a similar hermeneutic on how to determine truth: Catholics have a system called, "Doctrine of Development" popularized by Dr. Newman, but anticipated by the German theologian Mohler in his work, Symbolik. This hermeneutic contended that Christ had committed to His Church certain seeds and germs of truth, destined afterwards to expand to definite forms; that He did not intend that the teaching of His Church should be always the same; but ordained that it should go on continually improving under the guidance of His Holy Spirit. JW’s employ exactly the same hermeneutic but call it by a different name: "New Light"
11. Both teach the organization is supreme over the Bible rather than the Bible being supreme over the organization.
12. The average members are told by the organization that they cannot understand the Bible without the help of the official organization.
13. Both discourage independent thinking from the world organization.
14. Both continue to blindly follow the organization in spite of major doctrinal changes, reversals and flip-flops.
15. Both "explain away" doctrinal changes, reversals and flip-flops by claiming "new light".
16. Both view every other church as heretical and false.
17. No salvation outside of their organization.
18. The word of the organization is unquestionably final.
19. Interpreting the Bible is the sole right of the organization.
20. Both make claims that because of their size, growth, activity, they must have the truth.
21. Both have authoritative writings in addition to the Bible. Creeds, catechisms and the watchtower.
22. Both teach that you cannot understand the Bible unless you compare the Bible with their official "authoritative writings" Creeds and Watchtower.
23. Both have an official clergy system with special privileges and rights the common member does not have. Priests and the Governing body.
24. Both have system of monasteries where "most holy and dedicated" selflessly pledge to do the "work for God" without any material rewards. No children are allowed in both. Catholic = monasteries; JW = Bethel

 

[alan ford]

Both have an official clergy system with special privileges and rights the common member does not have. Priests and the Governing body.

 

[Serenity]

Yes, He's a Bible Student.


Russell did use it in passing. But he didn't use it ad nauseam. I think because they had a close relationship with God, they just referred to Him as "father". Besides they were more Witnesses of Jesus, as they were following in His footsteps.

I guess perhaps they don't want to be associated with the Witnesses.

Yes, Russell and the Bible Students definately used Jehovah's name. I'm reading Russell's Studies in the Scriptures books and the name Jehovah appears with frequency, and the name Jehovah was included in their songs and poems, as well as Lord and God.
This is one of the number of poems that appears in The Divine Plan of the Ages:

The Blessed Hope

"A little while, earth's fightings will be over;
A little while, her tears, be wiped away;
A little while, the power of Jehovah
Shall turn this darkness to Millennial Day.

"A little while, the ills that now o'erwhelm men
Shall to the memories of the past belong;
A little while, the love that once redeemed them
Shall change their weeping into grateful song.

"A little while! 'Tis ever drawing nearer--
The brighter dawning of that glorious day.
Praise God, the light is hourly growing clearer,
Shining more and more unto the perfect day."​

And no, the Bible Students don't want to be associated with Jehovah's Witnesses. They didn't accept Joseph Rutherford as the new president, nor the considerable number of changes that he made to Russell's teachings. They also didn't feel that Rutherford rightly attained to that position, or that Russell wanted him to succeed him as head of the Watchtower.

By the way, The Divine Plan of the Ages is an excellent book, and very well and written. Charles Russell had a writing style that was marked by great clarity and effectiveness of language. It is well worth reading. While the Watchtower no longer prints the book, nor do they recommend reading it, it's still printed by the Bible Students and can be obtained in paperback for $2 on at least some of their websites.

 

[KingdomLeast]

Yes, Russell and the Bible Students definately used Jehovah's name. I'm reading Russell's Studies in the Scriptures books and the name Jehovah appears with frequency, and the name Jehovah was included in their songs and poems, as well as Lord and God.

Interestingly, Russell used the term Jehovah's Witness. He called the great pyramid "Jehovah's Stone Witness."

By the way, The Divine Plan of the Ages is an excellent book, and very well and written.

Yes I agree. It's an excellent book. What I liked about the volumes is that each chapter is a study in themselves on a particular subject. So, you don't have to read it cover to cover, you can skip around. When I first obtained a copy in the 1980s, I first read the chapters on "the permission of evil" and "ransom and restitution."

 

[Serenity]

Interestingly, Russell used the term Jehovah's Witness. He called the great pyramid "Jehovah's Stone Witness."

Ha, yes, I didn't think about Russell's referring to the great pyramid as Jehovah's Stone Witness that way. That's one of a number of things about which I'm sure Russell was mistaken. Pyramidology is, according to Merriam-Webster: the study of or theory about mathematical or occult significance in measurements of the Great Pyramid of Egypt. Rutherford was correct to eliminate that falsehood. To imagine that something built by idol worshipping Egyptians could be a witness for Jehovah couldn't be right.

Despite some of Russell's erroroneous conclusions though, for that time and just coming out of Babylon the Great, he and the Bible Students were blessed with some obviously God-directed insight. Both of those chapters that you mentioned are excellent. The book has withstood the test of time and is worth reading more than twice. It has enlightenment even for us today, in fact it's as if it was written 100 years ahead of time so it would be available to us now, when it especially applies, IMHO.

 

[KingdomLeast]

Rutherford was correct to eliminate that falsehood.

Well he had too. Think about it, the great pyramid corroborated Russell's Divine Plan. Rutherford changed it all, the great pyramid didn't corroborate Rutherford's beliefs, so he had to get rid of it.

To imagine that something built by idol worshipping Egyptians could be a witness for Jehovah couldn't be right.

I think it's safe to say the Jews in captivity built it.

 

[Serenity]

Well he had too. Think about it, the great pyramid corroborated Russell's Divine Plan. Rutherford changed it all, the great pyramid didn't corroborate Rutherford's beliefs, so he had to get rid of it.

I think it's safe to say the Jews in captivity built it.

It's possible, though the Bible doesn't say specifically that the Israilite slaves built the pyramids. It does say that they were forced to make bricks. Josephus alleged that Israelite slaves built the pyramids in his Antiquities of the Jews, which was written during the first century CE, long after they were built. This idea was popularized during the Renaissance. There have been archeological discoveries in the 1990s however that show the workers were paid laborers, rather than slaves. It was a major undertaking so it seems that both could be true. The construction was done, no doubt though, under Pharoah's orders.

This is from Wikipedia:

Great Pyramids not built by slaves
There is a consensus among Egyptologists that the Great Pyramids were not built by slaves. According to noted archeologists Mark Lehner and Zahi Hawass, the pyramids were not built by slaves; Hawass's archeological discoveries in the 1990s in Cairo show the workers were paid laborers, rather than slaves. Rather, it was farmers who built the pyramids during flooding, when they could not work their lands.

"Slavery in ancient Egypt - Wikipedia" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Egypt

 

[Serenity]

Well he had too. Think about it, the great pyramid corroborated Russell's Divine Plan. Rutherford changed it all, the great pyramid didn't corroborate Rutherford's beliefs, so he had to get rid of it.

My understanding is that Rutherford changed a lot of Russell's teachings, I believe perhaps as many as 100, maybe more, if I recall correctly. I have yet to actually find a list of what he changed, specifically, though I'd be very interested to see such a list, if one exists.
But, it seems to me anyway, that Russell was more right than wrong about the Divine Plan of the Ages outline of God's plan, other than 1914, of course, when he and the Bible Students thought Armegeddon was going to come.

 

[KingdomLeast]

My understanding is that Rutherford changed a lot of Russell's teachings, I believe perhaps as many as 100, maybe more, if I recall correctly. I have yet to actually find a list of what he changed, specifically, though I'd be very interested to see such a list, if one exists.

I remember years ago seeing somewhere all the major changes that Rutherford made. But I have no idea where.

But, it seems to me anyway, that Russell was more right than wrong about the Divine Plan of the Ages outline of God's plan, other than 1914, of course, when he and the Bible Students thought Armegeddon was going to come.

Keep in mind that Russell's view of Armageddon was not the Witnesses view of Armageddon. It was a transition from Satan's kingdom to Christ's Kingdom. It wasn't the death and destruction that the Witnesses teach it to be.

 

[Serenity]

I remember years ago seeing somewhere all the major changes that Rutherford made. But I have no idea where.

Keep in mind that Russell's view of Armageddon was not the Witnesses view of Armageddon. It was a transition from Satan's kingdom to Christ's Kingdom. It wasn't the death and destruction that the Witnesses teach it to be.

The Bible Students actually had a printed countdown card by which they counted down the days to the time when they thought they'd be going to heaven, somewhat like the rapture, I guess. And, yes, I know from reading the Studies in the Scriptures books that Russell had a different view of Armegeddon than the JWs do, and I don't know that he was necessarily all wrong in his interpretation of the scriptures in that regard. I believe that was another teaching that Rutherford changed.

UPDATE: April 4, 2024

With regard to the rapture spoken of above, I found the clip belowclip regarding Russell's view of the rapture from MacMillian's book. So, apparently Russell didn't expect to be raptured at that time.

"When 1878 arrived, failure of the expected rapture brought great disappointment for Barbour and Russell, and their associates and readers. But one of Russell's associates claimed that Russell was not upset.

While talking with Russell about the events of 1878, I told him that Pittsburgh papers had reported he was on the Sixth Street bridge dressed in a white robe on the night of the Memorial of Christ's death, expecting to be taken to heaven together with many others. I asked him, "Is that correct?" Russell laughed heartily and said: "I was in bed that night between 10:30 and 11:00 P.M. However, some of the more radical ones might have been there, but I was not. Neither did I expect to be taken to heaven at that time, for I felt there was much work to be done preaching the Kingdom message to the peoples of the earth before the church would be taken away.

— Alexander Hugh Macmillan[33]

 

[Serenity]

The Bible Students actually had a printed countdown card by which they counted down the days to the time when they thought they'd be going to heaven, somewhat like the rapture, I guess. Yes, I know from reading the Studies in the Scriptures books that Russell had a different view of Armegeddon than the JWs do, and I don't know that he was necessarily all wrong in his interpretation of the scriptures in that regard. I believe that was another teaching that Rutherford changed.

They have reprints of the Charles Russell's / Bible Students 1914 Countdown card on eBay.

Here's a photo.

 

[Serenity]

So, I listened to this talk I found on the Food for Thinking Jehovah's Witnesses website, which speaks about THE THREE BABYLONS.

1. The original Babylon (the ancient city)
2. Babylon the Great (Papacy)
3. Little Babylon (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society)

The parallels are pretty amazing. He discusses 7 points.

1. True believers are labeled as "apostates."
2. A strong organization develops.
3. A strong worship of an earthly organization develops.
4. Claims of divine inspiration.
5. Restricted views of salvation are promulgated.
6. Threats of divine wrath against non-believers.
7. Other false doctrine and practices are introduced.

Click on the link: THE THREE BABYLONS

Thank you for sharing this very interesting talk. The speaker said that it was 1990, so that was 34 years ago.

It is of interest that Malachi 4: 5, 6 says that before the coming of the great and fear inspiring day of Jehovah, that Jehovah would send Elijah the prophet who would turn the heart of fathers back to sons and the heart of sons back toward fathers. In other words, there would be a reconciliation, no doubt a spiritual reconciliation.

While Jesus said that John the Baptist was the Elijah that was fortold to come prior to his arrival (Matthew 17: 10-13), these verses, to me, seem to apply to the day of Jehovah at the end of this system. The fortold coming of Elijah would come, according to Malachi, before that time. After reading many of Russell's writings, and seeing the results of his work, I've wondered if this prophecy could apply to him. It certainly seems that Russell's work was of a restorative nature, clearing up many of Christendom's falsehoods that had kept people in spiritual darkness for centuries. As we know, many Biblical prophecies have a dual fulfillment.

Jehovah's Witnesses, while claiming that Russell was their founder, don't print his publications, or encourage their members to read them. Why is that? I find that rather strange indeed.

“Look! I am sending to YOU people E·liʹjah the prophet before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. And he must turn the heart of fathers back toward sons, and the heart of sons back toward fathers; in order that I may not come and actually strike the earth with a devoting [of it] to destruction.”
Malachi 4:5, 6