The Tree in Daniel 4

[The God Pill]

Adam was created to live forever and if Adam did not disobey Jehovah; he ( Adam ) would be still alive today meaning that what took place since the rebellion in Eden till now would not have happened. However that is has happened is a result of the rebellion, but not part of Jehovah’s original purpose for mankind, which include the ransom sacrifice and the line of Kings.

And then there is this, Ps 10:16 and this Ps 97:1 However they are sentiments that do not speak to a time prior to what was written. But speaks to then ( the time of writing) and beyond into the future.

According to the record Kings was not part of Jehovah's original purpose, prehaps.

Without Adam sinning there would be no monarchies on earth it would have admittedly been more patriarchal/familial still Adam would have been the highest authority in the human family and have dominion over all biological life on the planet. There are royal implications in Jewish text around the 1st century B.C. and traditions around that time like Adam and Eve's garments of light being the royal color purple etc also Adam being in the image of elohim meant in part that he was the earthly counterpart/representation of Adam Kadmon the primal/heavenly man Michael/Christ himself one of Jehovah basically Adam was the same note as them but third octave you could say. In Jewish thought this had royal implications albeit again I'm not implying it would have had much of the formalism and buerecracy we associate with monarchy and government much more familial etc. Essentially Adam would have been to the earthly part of Jehovah's family what Michael was to the heavenly.

 

[BagdadBill]

The only place "watchers" appears in the NWT is the 4th chapter of Daniel. However, in the older Reference NWT "watchers" appears in Judges and Jeremiah too.

I wasn't aware of this idea or understanding of watchers until maybe a few years ago. I still don't know how to assess it butI believe that as long as we deviate away from obvious or direct demonic influence that we are spared their influence. I can't provide scriptural reference except for Job that they have limits and if they want to play, they can but it has restraints.
Now that I have said that, it opens a can of worms that I can't even begin to account for, Restraints according to what power? Well, God obviously to us. The nay sayers don't respect even our minimum level of agreement. Is there nothing stopping the wicked from completely overhauling us? I say nay. There is God's power and force and it is his choice as to how he uses it. The watchers' assume a liability toward the perverted side because we have no way of determining a good angel from judged. Except that holy spirit may guide us.
I am so wasted on this world and it's garbage that I am a stone's throw from anarchy. Let this be said, if you are FBI or CIA or the other letter groups, we will stay in line and we will live according to God's restraint, but don't be mistaken, our God will kill you if you are not within his fold. I say this because we are being watched. Maybe you didn't see it before. They move in our midst and pretend they are one of us. "us"
They aren't. They learn our language and that is easy enough. They are not of our sort and they will be judged as unholy.

 

[DR74minus]

Without Adam sinning there would be no monarchies on earth it would have admittedly been more patriarchal/familial still Adam would have been the highest authority in the human family and have dominion over all biological life on the planet. There are royal implications in Jewish text around the 1st century B.C. and traditions around that time like Adam and Eve's garments of light being the royal color purple etc also Adam being in the image of elohim meant in part that he was the earthly counterpart/representation of Adam Kadmon the primal/heavenly man Michael/Christ himself one of Jehovah basically Adam was the same note as them but third octave you could say. In Jewish thought this had royal implications albeit again I'm not implying it would have had much of the formalism and buerecracy we associate with monarchy and government much more familial etc. Essentially Adam would have been to the earthly part of Jehovah's family what Michael was to the heavenly.

We need to let the bible speak for itself. Not speak for the bible. The record shows that Kings were not part of Jehovah's original purpose for mankind. I'll end my input to the thread here.

Feel free to continue with your views but.

 

[The God Pill]

We need to let the bible speak for itself. Not speak for the bible. The record shows that Kings were not part of Jehovah's original purpose for mankind. I'll end my input to the thread here.

But feel free to continue with your views but.

Why take offense?

Do not be quick to take offense, for the taking of offense lodges in the bosom of fools.

I don't recall any conflict with your view here beyond me saying elements and motifs ancient peoples minds associated with kingship likely did not emerge from a vacuum.

 

[DR74minus]

Why take offense?

Do not be quick to take offense, for the taking of offense lodges in the bosom of fools.

I don't recall any conflict with your view here beyond me saying elements and motifs ancient peoples minds associated with kingship likely did not emerge from a vacuum.

Why be presumptuous. What in my comments leads you to the conclusion that I'm offended? You're implying that I'm quick to take offence. BTW my goto verse that I've used more than once on this forum you've taken a leaf out prehaps.

I must say not the view I thought you would continue with,. However I'm wondering why such a curious reaction to a simple statement that "I'll end my input to the thread here" Out of the blue, Boom, "Why take offence" Curious indeed. You were offended prehaps. I must say I have a knack of bringing out negative responses from people.

I don't have any more to add to the fact that Kings was not part of Jehovah's original purpose. that triggered you and so you were presumptuous prehaps.

Feel free to continue but.

 

[The God Pill]

If you have nothing to say that's fine. As for thinking you were offended I couldn't grasp your response at the time otherwise and I've been very invitational of engagement on this thread. There isn't much nuance in nonverbal communication especially when brief.

 

[BagdadBill]

I have breathed God’s air and thus become an enemy of his enemies.
I don’t have a scripture reference for that so I will claim it as 1 Kevin 1:1
Jehovah forgive my boast. I meant well.

 

[Patmos]

Jehovah is always sovereign essentially emperor of the omniverse (so far he never stepped down and one cant say he does in a full sense in the future as him never being subject to the son when he renders all things subject to him implies the father remains sovereign throughout.) merely when it came to our planet after a while after repeated rebellions Eden, the watchers, babel etc he divided the land and people groups into subordinate kingdoms to be run by the princes. Jesus goes forth conquering and to complete his conquest becoming king over the whole earth because the others didn't satisfy jehovah in managing their responsibilities that is why Jesus/Michael transitions from national angel prince to for the millennium ruler of everything save he who subjected all things to him. There are many kingdoms under the sovereign lord Jehovah because for a time it was better than letting humanity unite in tyranny and rebellion like at Babel but in time there will be only one kingdom within Jehovah's omniversal empire as Jesus conquers all rivals.

Thank you, good points

 

[The God Pill]

@DR74minus I should state to that since childhood I've never not acknowledged or pointed out to people how the bible makes it clear the simple tribal confederacy with a shared constitution (mosaic law) was superior to what followed I've used it since early adolescence in supporting why I'm more minimal gov/freedom centric than many in conversations.

 

[BagdadBill]

@DR74minus I should state to that since childhood I've never not acknowledged or pointed out to people how the bible makes it clear the simple tribal confederacy with a shared constitution (mosaic law) was superior to what followed I've used it since early adolescence in supporting why I'm more minimal gov/freedom centric than many in conversations.

That was a very long comment and I am still trying to understand it. You are very intelligent so I will take some time to try and grasp your meaning.
Let this be said, Daniel was a special friend of God Jehovah. He was not just someone passing through and convenient channel to use. He was God's friend. Imagine that. God chose Daniel as a friend and called or named him as such. I've know a few useful idiots who called me their friend but I've never heard our God say to me that I was on the level of Daniel. That is something to aspire to. We don't worship people but he was someone to listen to for all the prophecy which God allowed him to write. Imagine that you are Daniel and you have to describe a future event that informs us of our own destruction. Not exactly welcome information is it.

 

[The God Pill]

That was a very long comment and I am still trying to understand it. You are very intelligent so I will take some time to try and grasp your meaning.
Let this be said, Daniel was a special friend of God Jehovah. He was not just someone passing through and convenient channel to use. He was God's friend. Imagine that. God chose Daniel as a friend and called or named him as such. I've know a few useful idiots who called me their friend but I've never heard our God say to me that I was on the level of Daniel. That is something to aspire to. We don't worship people but he was someone to listen to for all the prophecy which God allowed him to write. Imagine that you are Daniel and you have to describe a future event that informs us of our own destruction. Not exactly welcome information is it.

Never sell short how our father feels for you eight billion people as free moral agents he has unique parallel/simultaneous relationships with undoubtedly makes life more stimulating for him he certainly appreciates your gratitude, allegiance, conscience, love and faith. You certainly love good and hate what is evil. We are certainly privileged that our heavenly father not only cares for us all but treats us with far more dignity than these control freaks making a mess these days.

We're all much farther from perfection than Daniel true he was a precious man to Jehovah even as a youth we know from Jeremiah that God knows us well even in the womb he loved you when you were only a couple cells. It's up to us to maintain our integrity to the end of our life or this system but provided we do in time we'll feel he's as close as any relative.

You make a good point on him since in Ezekiel Jehovah placed him in the same tier of righteousness and intimacy as Noah and Job. I'd definitely ask Abraham about his relationship with Jehovah in the new system because he was tested ten times and passed each time. David's heart was complete to Jehovah but still there was the Bathsheba/Uriah situation and the registering the people etc

 

[BagdadBill]

You make a good point on him since in Ezekiel Jehovah placed him in the same tier of righteousness and intimacy as Noah and Job. I'd definitely ask Abraham about his relationship with Jehovah in the new system because he was tested ten times and passed each time. David's heart was complete to Jehovah but still there was the Bathsheba/Uriah situation and the registering the people etc

A complete heart as to Jehovah. You make a fine statement to our God. David is perhaps the best example of Jehovah's forgiveness as well as trust in a human at the same time. David sounds like someone I want to get drunk with but also someone I would be afraid of if he didn't like the color of paint which I painted his house with. There isn't a better example of a human being carried by God except maybe Elijah and Elijah was far more righteous than David. As many hold favorite stories, my favorite is that of the she-bears. A brutal story but a testament to God's length of protection when has extended his hand.
We live in a time that doesn't seem to have any respect for genuine belief. Trust in scripture. I will allow that maybe a few letters got twisted along the way. Letters, not words. Yes, we have arguing translations of God's word but I will die on that hill. This is where we begin to separate as people. Here and now. As a bumper sticker once told me. "This is the word of God and that settles it". For me anyway. Fight amongst yourselves as to the here or there. My God has promised me an end to evil and a resurrection of those deserving into a world where people grow food and live in the joy of their own handiwork. Like the Amish without the weird hats.

 

[DR74minus]

Off topic - Lisa Haven said there is another balloon over Canada. The first one may or may not have been harmless.

Now a potential second? We might start to wonder if the balloons have guidance systems on board.?

However both could be innocent "blown off course weather monitoring" Do I hear 3? going once.

 

[DR74minus]

If you have nothing to say that's fine. As for thinking you were offended I couldn't grasp your response at the time otherwise and I've been very invitational of engagement on this thread. There isn't much nuance in nonverbal communication especially when brief.

BTW I said plenty. Word salads are not necessary for simple truths.

 

[alan ford]

The Appointed Times of the Nations

Commentary on the Daily Text of Jehovah's Witnesses Sunday, December 10 Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?—Acts 1:6. Before Jesus ascended to heaven, his apostles asked the above. Jesus’ answer showed that it was not the time

e-watchman.com

I was reading an old WT (w86 11/1) and apparently there is a bible version, Oxford NIV Scofield Study Bible (1984), which interprets the seven times same as WT does.

A footnote in the Oxford NIV Scofield Study Bible (1984) tells us that “the ‘times of the Gentiles’ [King James Version rendering of “appointed times of the nations”] began with the captivity of Judah under Nebuchadnezzar. . . . Since that time Jerusalem has been, as Christ said, ‘trampled on by the Gentiles.’”

I've been able to locate a version on archive.org (not sure if it's the same one) but searching for the quote didn't produce any results. However, I found this:

When the times of the
Gentiles are fulfilled, this mediatorial kingdom of God on earth will be restored at the coming of God’s
Messiah in great power and glory to reign over the nauons as the perfect mediatorial King

The “full number of the Gentiles” is the completion of the purpose of God in this age, 1 e
the outcalhng from among the Gentiles of a people for Christ’s name, “the church, which is his body"

A few other quotes too, indicate that the times of the gentiles end either at Armageddon or upon establishing the kingdom.

I can't help but notice the "Oxford" part, which to me means that it has been influenced by the British Empire scholars...
Just thought it was an interesting bit which might shine a light further...