The Watchtower's Bible Tampering.

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Revvzone

Revvzone

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Revelation 22:18-19 states that if anyone adds or removes one word from the Holy scriptures..That person or persons names will be removed from the register of life.

Roman's 8:26-28
Is just one that comes to mind. namely, the removal of the pronoun attached the Holy spirit which is in the earliest known manuscripts translate correctly as "Himself" I make no attempt to identify the holy spirit as anything other than placing it in the masculine, with some what of a mind of its own..

Greek Translation
Romans 8:26-28:
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps us in our weaknesses; for we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit "Himself" makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 Now "He" [Jehovah] who searches the hearts knows what the "mind" of the Spirit is, because "He" makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Has the watchtower tampered with and removed things from the holy scriptures, absolutely!
They won't even allow God's creative force to have a distinction, or act in accordance with the Almightys will. No.It's simply a mindless puppet that can somehow stand as a witness, flood itself over a host of people anointing them. It can plead, groan and even impart knowledge and bring forgotten scriptures to mind. In the future, it will impart power to those anointed so that no one will be able to refute or overcome them with any sort of trickery..But alas, again, it's just an impersonal mindless ball of energy.. yet, whatever the case, it seems to be equipped with a form of imparted intelligence. Like, a probe or vessel delivering spiritual nutrients wicked up by our subconscious.. kind of like a, spiritual email care package.
 
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Revvzone said:
Revelation 22:18-19 states that if anyone adds or removes one word from the Holy scriptures..That person or persons names will be removed from the register of life.

Roman's 8:26-28
Is just one that comes to mind. namely, the removal of the pronoun attached the Holy spirit which is in the earliest known manuscripts translate correctly as "Himself" I make no attempt to identify the holy spirit as anything other than placing it in the masculine, with some what of a mind of its own..

Greek Translation
Romans 8:26-28:
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps us in our weaknesses; for we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit "Himself" makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 Now "He" [Jehovah] who searches the hearts knows what the "mind" of the Spirit is, because "He" makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Has the watchtower tampered with and removed things from the holy scriptures, absolutely!
They won't even allow God's creative force to have a distinction, or act in accordance with the Almightys will. No.It's simply a mindless puppet that can somehow stand as a witness, flood itself over a host of people anointing them. It can plead, groan and even impart knowledge and bring forgotten scriptures to mind. In the future, it will impart power to those anointed so that no one will be able to refute or overcome them with any sort of trickery..But alas, again, it's just an impersonal mindless ball of energy.. yet, whatever the case, it seems to be equipped with a form of imparted intelligence. Like, a probe or vessel delivering spiritual nutrients wicked up by our subconscious.. kind of like a, spiritual email care package.
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Can we be certain that a bible exists that hasn't been taken away from or added to?
 
The Greek does not say the "spirit himself." It seems the Trinitarian translators capitalize Spirit and add "himself" to prop up their false doctrine that the holy spirit is the third person of a trinity.
 
Dave Bannister said:
Can we be certain that a bible exists that hasn't been taken away from or added to?
Click to expand...
I liken it to the Telephone game from back in Grammar school. Sure, after a few translations its easy to see how a person could get sloppy but, we have a lot of old manuscripts and such to draw from. Then there is the issue of God's will and purpose for mankind to learn the truth. Even in spite of us, He has always been in control so I have faith that through the use of more than one bible, we can glean Jehovah's word if we put effort into it.

To the spirit of the OP though, there are quite a few people and groups pushing the trinity hard right now. I've been reading the bible in one form or another since I was 10. God is one god and Jesus is his firstborn son who helped Him make everything else. Holy spirit is not, nor will it ever be a person. People have names. Holy spirit does not nor will it ever. Growing up I really tuned out a lot of things people said because although I knew extremely little until 1985, I always understood that God is one, not three.
 
BagdadBill said:
I liken it to the Telephone game from back in Grammar school. Sure, after a few translations its easy to see how a person could get sloppy but, we have a lot of old manuscripts and such to draw from. Then there is the issue of God's will and purpose for mankind to learn the truth. Even in spite of us, He has always been in control so I have faith that through the use of more than one bible, we can glean Jehovah's word if we put effort into it.

To the spirit of the OP though, there are quite a few people and groups pushing the trinity hard right now. I've been reading the bible in one form or another since I was 10. God is one god and Jesus is his firstborn son who helped Him make everything else. Holy spirit is not, nor will it ever be a person. People have names. Holy spirit does not nor will it ever. Growing up I really tuned out a lot of things people said because although I knew extremely little until 1985, I always understood that God is one, not three.
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Exactly Bill, Jehovah wouldn't play games with us or mess with our heads, he'd always make sure that anyone who was looking for him and wanting to understand life and his purpose, that they would find him and the answers they were looking for. If what I've said is just not true, then nothing's true..
Made me laugh when you said about "tuning out" of a lot of things people said cos I did too! Most of their ideas and philosophies about life and the universe just didn't make any sense to me, nothing made sense until I started reading and understanding the bible. Don't get me wrong, there's loads I don't fully understand yet but I understand enough to be able to drag myself outta bed each day! and I'm pretty sure I'll understand the rest of it one fine day..
 
To be clear, my intent is not to support the personification of the trinity blather.
I'm simply pointing to the fact that the pronoun "Himself" is indeed found in the earliest known manuscripts which predates Constantines decree of Milan.
The Codex Sinaiticus (4th century CE) and Codex Vaticanus (4th century CE) are among the most important early complete manuscripts of the Bible. These codices include Romans 8:26-28, and both utilize the phrase "the Spirit himself," confirming its acceptance in early Christian contexts. And by the way the translators of the NWT used them.
For example, in the Gospel of John, the Greek word for Spirit, "pneuma," is neuter, but when Jesus speaks about the Holy Spirit, He uses masculine language, such as "He" and "Him."

Jesus' References​

  • John 14:16-17: Jesus says, "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth.
  • Again, regardless of what others may say, when reading about the holy spirit, it's actions no doubt place it in the masculine. The point here is, even an Ant has intelligence. Jesus is said to make supplication for his chosen ones and is actively overseeing the preaching work. If that's true, why ever would there be a need for the holy spirit. And why refer to it as a helper? When Jesus can surely perform such tasks himself. sounds like intelligence to me. The Bible says God's word is "alive" and exerts power! But wait isn't Jesus also "the word or God's word" I'm certainly not placing the holy spirit on a footing with God. I'm saying I believe it fits the role of masculine and regardless what or where jehovahs intelligence should land. I believe the spirit bears something to that effect. I can find nothing in the scriptures that say, it's a 'mindless' vessel. And weather others believe those phrases of "he, him or himself are in the text or not. Does not erase the bibles context of the role of the holy spirit. Respectfully
 
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BagdadBill said:
I liken it to the Telephone game from back in Grammar school. Sure, after a few translations its easy to see how a person could get sloppy but, we have a lot of old manuscripts and such to draw from. Then there is the issue of God's will and purpose for mankind to learn the truth. Even in spite of us, He has always been in control so I have faith that through the use of more than one bible, we can glean Jehovah's word if we put effort into it.

To the spirit of the OP though, there are quite a few people and groups pushing the trinity hard right now. I've been reading the bible in one form or another since I was 10. God is one god and Jesus is his firstborn son who helped Him make everything else. Holy spirit is not, nor will it ever be a person. People have names. Holy spirit does not nor will it ever. Growing up I really tuned out a lot of things people said because although I knew extremely little until 1985, I always understood that God is one, not three.
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I never said it was a person.
 
Dave Bannister said:
Can we be certain that a bible exists that hasn't been taken away from or added to?
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Can we say it hasn't? There's obviously enough scraps to it the watchtower has woven lies and other twisted blather as truth has it not?
 
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Revvzone said:
To be clear, my intent is not to support the personification of the trinity blather.
I'm simply pointing to the fact that the pronoun "Himself" is indeed found in the earliest known manuscripts which predates Constantines decree of Milan.
The Codex Sinaiticus (4th century CE) and Codex Vaticanus (4th century CE) are among the most important early complete manuscripts of the Bible. These codices include Romans 8:26-28, and both utilize the phrase "the Spirit himself," confirming its acceptance in early Christian contexts. And by the way the translators of the NWT used them.
For example, in the Gospel of John, the Greek word for Spirit, "pneuma," is neuter, but when Jesus speaks about the Holy Spirit, He uses masculine language, such as "He" and "Him."

Jesus' References​

  • John 14:16-17: Jesus says, "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth.
  • Again, regardless of what others may say, when reading about the holy spirit, it's actions no doubt place it in the masculine. The point here is, even an Ant has intelligence. Jesus is said to make supplication for his chosen ones and is actively overseeing the preaching work. If that's true, why ever would there be a need for the holy spirit. And why refer to it as a helper? When Jesus can surely perform such tasks himself. sounds like intelligence to me. The Bible says God's word is "alive" and exerts power! But isn't Jesus "the word or God's word" I'm certainly not placing the holy spirit on a footing with God. I'm saying I believe it fits the role of masculine and regardless what or where jehovahs intelligence should land. I believe the spirit bears something to that effect. I can find nothing in the scriptures that says, it's a 'mindless' vessel. And weather others believe those phrases of "he, him or himself are in the text or not. Does erase the bibles context of the rile of the holy spirit. respectfully
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It is a figure of speech called "personification."
 
Watchman said:
It is a figure of speech called "personification."
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Does not speech, impart intelligence. As in "The spirit pleads." That is clearly not a play on words. Why go to the bother. When Christ could have simply said "I" or "Jehovah" will impart this or that. I'm not saying it has a mind of its own I'm saying it appears to have a form of intelligence. And there would be nothing wrong with such. Even flowers know their seasons.

The other thing is, the important thing is, watchtowers removal of those words is concealment. Leaving the reader uniformed without the complete text regardless of their conclusions.
 
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Revvzone said:
Can we say it hasn't? There's obviously enough scraps to it the watchtower has woven lies and other twisted blather as truth has it not?
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I doubt any man made religion is perfect. If a non tampered bible exists, I would like to see it. I do wonder how many books it would be, if certain books of the apocrypha were left out.
 
Revvzone said:
Does not speech, impart intelligence. As in "The spirit pleads." That is clearly not a play on words. Why go to the bother. When Christ could have simply said "I" or "Jehovah" will impart this or that. I'm not saying it has a mind of its own I'm saying it appears to have a form of intelligence. And there would be nothing wrong with such. Even flowers know their seasons.

The other thing is, the important thing is, watchtowers removal of those words is concealment. Leaving the reader uniformed without the complete text regardless of their conclusions.
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Other translations say the same thing as the NWT. It is not some WT conspiracy.
 
Dave Bannister said:
Can we be certain that a bible exists that hasn't been taken away from or added to?
Click to expand...
Probably not but that is why we must learn the entirety of its teaching to test our understanding with the harmony of it in its entirety. To be “certain”, we’d have to learn the language each manuscript was written in and I don’t think Jehovah requires that. But he does reward those honestly seeking to understand his inspired word.

Deuteronomy 12:5​

Rather, seek Jehovah your God wherever he chooses to establish his name and his place of residence among all your tribes, and go there.

Psalm 9:10​

Those knowing your name will trust in you; You will never abandon those seeking you, O Jehovah.

Psalm 14:2​

But Jehovah looks down from heaven on the sons of men To see whether anyone has insight, whether anyone is seeking Jehovah.

Psalm 53:2​

But God looks down from heaven on the sons of men To see whether anyone has insight, whether anyone is seeking Jehovah.

Psalm 69:32​

The meek will see it and rejoice. You who are seeking God, may your hearts revive.
 
Dave Bannister said:
I doubt any man made religion is perfect. If a non tampered bible exists, I would like to see it. I do wonder how many books it would be, if certain books of the apocrypha were left out.
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When I first started studying my dad insisted that the witnesses had their "own" Bible, different to the "real" one, so I went round all the charity shops etc looking for different translations and managed to collect about 10. I started picking random scriptures and checking each Bible to see if it said any different, I spent ages doing that, and I can honestly they all said pretty much the same, maybe using different words that mean the same. I was happy with that, in fact, it was a great help for when I wasn't sure what a certain scripture or passage meant exactly. Anyway, typical of my dad, when I tried to show him what I'd found, he was no longer interested 🙃
 
SusanB said:
But God looks down from heaven on the sons of men To see whether anyone has insight, whether anyone is seeking Jehovah.
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It must be why we here have been blessed so: While our siblings are asleep having accepted what W/T has told them. We have shown ourselves to be be searching for the hidden gold.
 
Watchman said:
Other translations say the same thing as the NWT. It is not some WT conspiracy.
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Conspiracy or not, we both know WT has tampered with the Bible.
Regardless, the translator removed the nouns which received approval from the Governing Body. Had they left the nouns in. Their foremost spouted 1st Timothy 3:16-17 2nd Corinthians 10:4-5 would make the scripture all the more powerful. When a skillful Bible wielder overturns any nonsense one might attach to the trinity. Unfortunately in today's world jws are not searching for the deep things of Jehovah.They're content with spiritual crumbs, cartoons and follow the leader videos.
 
Revvzone said:
Conspiracy or not, we both know WT has tampered with the Bible.
Regardless, the translator removed the nouns which received approval from the Governing Body. Had they left the nouns in. Their foremost spouted 1st Timothy 3:16-17 2nd Corinthians 10:4-5 would make the scripture all the more powerful. When a skillful Bible wielder overturns any nonsense one might attach to the trinity. Unfortunately in today's world jws are not searching for the deep things of Jehovah.They're content with spiritual crumbs, cartoons and follow the leader videos.
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With that said, what Bible version do you recommend?
 
To rephrase.
Editorial revisions with modifications and adjustments to specific verses and words for clarity and doctrinal alignment without contrast.
 
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Revvzone said:
Revelation 22:18-19 states that if anyone adds or removes one word from the Holy scriptures..That person or persons names will be removed from the register of life.
Click to expand...

Doesn't this automatically include every non-Hebrew and non-Greek Bible translation which, of necessity, must often find (compatible) words or expressions that don't carry over into the English (or, other modern-day languages)?

Case in point: Genesis 4:8, in the original language, is an ellipses, yet try to find a Bible translation that doesn't insert the words "Let us go out to the field". In effect, modern translators have added to the Bible, and therefore earned their removal "from the register of life," as you worded it.

—Timothy,
a believer.
 
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