Thu Feb 8th - It puts under compulsion all people

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
A long time guest and supporter of this site....Can you not apologise Robert?
Apologize for...?
Also, are you saying that people are judged for death for believing 1914 and also judged for death for taking the mark/supporting the 8th king? Are there two different judgments?
The judgment will come upon people who know the truth not merely because they have believed the lie, but because they will not believe the truth when Christ comes. The masses of humanity have never known anything about the truth and will readily accept the savior the Devil provides. Both will have the same eventuality.
 

Revvzone

Well-known member
Apologize for...?

The judgment will come upon people who know the truth not merely because they have believed the lie, but because they will not believe the truth when Christ comes. The masses of humanity have never known anything about the truth and will readily accept the savior the Devil provides. Both will have the same eventuality.
I completely agree, what you say is not just a proclamation, it's an absolute!
 

Frank D

Well-known member
The judgment will come upon people who know the truth not merely because they have believed the lie, but because they will not believe the truth when Christ comes. The masses of humanity have never known anything about the truth and will readily accept the savior the Devil provides. Both will have the same eventuality.
I am missing where the judgment of death comes in for believing 1914.
When Jesus comes, he separates sheep and goats. All that accept the savior the Devil provides (As you put it.) are goats. The goats take the mark, and they get death. The sheep are who refuse the mark/the Devil's savior, they get life.

[24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.][31 When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”]

[7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
 

Revvzone

Well-known member
At that time dear Carl because of being given good prognosis of not making the end of the year; I resumed Crack and Heroin use in the only area available the groin it eased the pain and gave me hours in the day to continue listening to e-watchman site. Being in such great pain but being placed in a home for those on end of life treatment I saw no need to be alarmed at further injections! Yet here I am and glad too! I'm not in need of such intense drug use at the moment! Yet glad to be still in an NHS home being treated! They even pay for this internet connection!
Hi Mick..
I was the first to post the vaccine was dangerous as I have friends in the medical field that warned me not to take it.. I I also posted that the covid virus was no different than a bad flu 99.98% survivability. That to posted early on, Robert even gave me guff for sounding to alarmed calling it a plandemic a psyop. it was all here. first...Maybe you didnt see it... I don't see people being self righteous or gloating or saying, I told you so! Besides its water under bridge can't take it back..just keep plugging along and forget about it...look at it like this if that doesn't kill you, something lse eventually will.. Bro..I wouldn't worry or fret over it ..
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
I say again for the sake of the ones above looking in who no doubt are disaffected congregants of Watchtower who have possibly taken the vax only now to be viewing the self righteous here who think they are saved because they didn't.....Let's have a little compassion and understanding. How does Jehovah think towards our dear brothers who have been for so long now beguiled by Bethel? Could Jah have brought them here only to see the same attitude they are running away from?
Yes Mick and I, among many, have stood up for you and others who took the vax. We told the ones that said it was the MoB or a sin that they were wrong because they had no Biblical foundation and they were deluded or deceived.

A lot of people take vaccines for a lot of reasons. I myself got the tetanus vax last winter. It was kind of mentioned by the doctor because he said I should have had a booster years ago. I just kind of went along because I didn't give it much consideration. It wasn't so much about fearing death as just not wanting to get sick and seize up like a oil-less engine :) but TBH, I had just been in a major accident and mostly wanted him to go away and let me rest. :)

Some took the covid vax because they thought they were doing the right thing, some to protect themselves, some to "go along to get along" and there were other reasons. We take precautions all the time to protect ourselves. Wear a seat belt, cut away from the body, keep our cars and tires in safe condition, don't feed bears. What's being forgotten here is they said that we should take it to protect others along with ourselves. In a way they tried to use our love for our families against us. It's a classic tale that Satan has used since Adam and Eve.

Don't worry my Brother. It's not our place to judge, in any case. Jehovah will judge us so it's him we must strive to please on a daily basis.
 

Ms_ladyblue

Well-known member
Well if you can't then I forgive you for your status surpasses your arrogance.
If I can interject here Mick, I’d just like to say there is no need for name calling or any other kind of negative remarks. Robert is a lover of truth and stands for what is right. You also have a good heart, you’ve been on here much longer than I have . Don’t you know that Robert as well as others knew that the GB conned many of the friends into getting vaccinated. If you closely read the comments Robert expressed his strong convictions about what they were promoting, “I do not forgive the Watchtower for manipulating Jehovah's trusting sheep into getting vaccinated.“ You’re no less of a person just because you were conned…you’re only human, a victim of circumstances and believed at first what you were told. Don’t let pride get in the way of your judgement.

Many of us were fooled, not only because of the vaccinations but by the 1914 belief for example….all the prophecies were fulfilled except BTG turning on false religion. I know I was misled by the delusion which put enough fear in us not to wake up and realize we’ve been lied to. Watchtower is the one you should be upset with but hey, Jehovah is the one who will take care of them. Maybe I can’t change your mind but I think it’s not fair for you to be at odds with someone who cares enough to keep us well informed about what‘s happening and what we’re about to face.

Please read Robert’s post again carefully with more discernment and you’ll see what his intent was in his commentary.
Satan the devil would like nothing more than to cause division here on the forum, especially with longtime members such as yourself. I always say, be a peacemaker not a peace breaker.

“If possible, as far as it depends on you,
be peaceable with all men.”—Romans 12:18
 

Paula

Well-known member
Oh trust me Jim I have forgiven myself; It's the self righteousness of others that are in need. That's why you witness my angst! Infact Jim I'm glad in a way I took it otherwise I would be joining the self righteous in their thinking!
I took it to say my job - to pay my bills and mortgage and I was told that you couldn't use your religious belief to get out of it. How daft am I. Ive looked into the vaccine more now but army the time fear did take over and my comforts. I was out with a friend yesterday and she said her husband walks with a limp now after having clots in his leg. Fear makes us do things that we normally worry about.
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
I took it to say my job - to pay my bills and mortgage and I was told that you couldn't use your religious belief to get out of it. How daft am I. Ive looked into the vaccine more now but army the time fear did take over and my comforts. I was out with a friend yesterday and she said her husband walks with a limp now after having clots in his leg. Fear makes us do things that we normally worry about.
It seems to have got into a loop these rumours of wars and reports of wars; Scott Ritter has run out of click bait, Doug Mcgregor too 'Its all over for Israel', 'It's all over for Ukraine' It makes you want to press the button yourself and get over and done but at least we are on first rung of the ladder next stop 'Peace and Security' and job done. Privilege to have had a place here watching the little one not remain a little one. Seems many if not all are schooled up with the knowledge.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I say again for the sake of the ones above looking in who no doubt are disaffected congregants of Watchtower who have possibly taken the vax only now to be viewing the self righteous here who think they are saved because they didn't.....Let's have a little compassion and understanding. How does Jehovah think towards our dear brothers who have been for so long now beguiled by Bethel? Could Jah have brought them here only to see the same attitude they are running away from?
I hear what you are saying Mick. There are many slants to the argument. I took the vaccination, of course because given the evidence at he time, I wanted to lessen my chances of dying - not so much that I am afraid of dying - I have had my life and done the best I can with it. I disagree with Robert implying, if not suggesting that to take the vaccine was simply a matter of fear of death. For one thing, we all fear death. Let us be reasonable about that. Some less than others to be sure. The truth does help us greatly in mitigating that fear.

Personally though, I took the vaccine because given the information I had it was (reasonably) safe to do so, though i was aware that it was untested - but have you seen what goes in our food? I take the same, but intrinsically greater risk each day crossing the road. Should I be censured for this too?

But then the effect’s of this “flu” were sold as deadly - Spanish flu style (where people were imprisoned in England for not taking the “vaccine” “treatment” for it back then - believe it or not). I did not have access to the information Americans have had. We do not have the network of exposure their journalists give them either. We are at the very heart of political censorship in his country. Essentially, I took the vaccine because I am the last man standing in my family who A/ has awareness of the Truth, and B/ there is no one else here to help them otherwise. Yes I am afeared of death to a normal degree, but I would feel totally unjustified in not taking the vaccine (at that time) simply to leave my family without my duty to them fulfilled. Did we not, both English and American, go fight the Nazis for the same reason? Thus it is not unusual to risk our lives, via vaccine or bullet, to protect the welfare of our children and family. It is inbuilt into us to give our lives fr our children. Well, we have to be here to do that, yes?

Having said that, knowing what I know now, I will not be taking any more of it and indeed, have refused two offers to do so from my doctor. I do not think Robert was speaking from an uninformed point of view as in above and beyond death and unforeseen risks, or Indeed, questioning the faith or sanity of others by his remark. What I do see is that our American brothers and sisters have and had, a huge advantage in information gathering than we did over here. So naturally they speak from an informed point of view. Just as well, as their comments have saved both me and my wife from further risk. Their country is a lot more free than we are in our speech - just look at the persecution their journalists get compared with our adored government lackeys. Thus for me at least, I do not read injury into what is said by those who were better informed than we. My motive for my family sits comfortably with my conscience, my being uninformed about the vaccine pales against my desire to be here for my family, Robert’s enthusiasm must be seen within context of information, culture and message - could have been more ‘holistically inclusive’, sure, but that hardly matters because this site is no place of sanctuary from division via all sorts of attack tools used by Satan. Divide and conquer. So, at such times as this when choice of words causes upset, we must look to the motive. Therein comes quietude of soul and spirit, gratefulness for the provision of insight, and the development of tolerance for those who must labour and suffer under the “American Way.” At least they keep us informed! One last point though, but worth considering, the Americans brought Spam into this country - and we worry over vaccines?!!
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
There's nothing to take back. That would be a denial that we were not all subjected to a well-coordinated, fearmongering scheme to bamboozle everyone into taking the jab. But, as I said, getting vaccinated is not a compromise of faith. It is, even as the Watchtower hypocritically says, a personal decision. The point is the entire thing was fear-induced, which is what the Devil uses against us. And the point of my post is that the Watchtower was at the forefront of inducing fear in order to promote the vaccine.
That is true in a nutshell.
It is unreasonable though to expect everyone can be reached in their understanding. The same can be said of the bible - hence the weight upon the writer not to add or take away a single thing. Were it not the case that the responsibility lies with the “reader using discernment” the writer would condemn himself in every letter, I am sure. I spent hours and hours in work, constructing what I hoped would be unassailable facts to the Court of Law in defence of the vulnerable adult or child, only to be blind-sided by an attorney. If I lost the case - and I did in many ways lose frequently, if not in whole, then in part, it was not me that was harmed, but the “client”. That is a failure to feel frequently for the astute writer, for many reasons. Fortunately, the “judge” could recognise need above the law on many occasion. Even so, I got told off for arguing with defence counsel or obstructing their line of questions because I felt it was not law that was to be observed, but care. There is no winner in this system. So keep on doing what you are doing. The heart that reasons wins through - it hears the “voice” though the storms we make for ourselves.
 
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BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I took it to say my job - to pay my bills and mortgage and I was told that you couldn't use your religious belief to get out of it. How daft am I. Ive looked into the vaccine more now but army the time fear did take over and my comforts. I was out with a friend yesterday and she said her husband walks with a limp now after having clots in his leg. Fear makes us do things that we normally worry about.
Paula - do not beat yourself up over this vaccine thing. What is done is done. Do you not think Jehovah protects those He loves? The problem with the world today - not least on this site, is that we fixate on what threatens us and it drags us down. My whole life has been given over to the “end times” watchtower doom and gloom, sin, just living in this dreadful world. It has to stop if we are to maintain the hope. The bible points to the times we live in. It does not detail them - for good reason. It asks instead, pleads, for us to have faith. Faith is given us though understanding, and understanding is given us through praying for it. It builds trust. Confidence in Jehovah. It lifts us above the cares of this world, though does not protect us from it - to a degree - for we must endure to prove our faith. This is critical for our spiritual well-being because it gives us an “understanding” (personal to each of us according to our faith) that Jehovah is aware of us, just as He is, even of a single sparrow. The more we dwell upon, deepen, explore, understand the meaning of what that means, the greater and more tangible our faith will become to us, to our soul, to our very concept of living. Quit treading through the dog-muck of life - step over it. Shit happens. It is all around us. Listen to fears by all means, be informed, but do so with understanding of the Spirit in heart and mind, in application to our souls. That will give you a balance of joy like no other - the “rose growing in the rubbish dump” as Watchtower were fond of saying (but could never grasp the meaning of).👍
 
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Bk Kevin

Well-known member

John7:​

53 So they went each one to his home.8 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At daybreak, however, he again presented himself at the temple, and all the people began coming to him, and he sat down and began to teach them. 3 Now the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught at adultery, and, after standing her in their midst, 4 they said to him: “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of committing adultery. 5 In the Law Moses prescribed for us to stone such sort of women. What, really, do you say?” 6 Of course, they were saying this to put him to the test, in order to have something with which to accuse him. But Jesus bent down and began to write with his finger in the ground. 7 When they persisted in asking him, he straightened up and said to them: “Let the one of YOU that is sinless be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And bending over again he kept on writing in the ground. 9 But those who heard this began going out, one by one, starting with the older men, and he was left alone, and the woman that was in their midst. 10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her: “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” 11 She said: “No one, sir.” Jesus said: “Neither do I condemn you. Go your way; from now on practice sin no more.”
 

Melinda

Well-known member
I hear what you are saying Mick. There are many slants to the argument. I took the vaccination, of course because given the evidence at he time, I wanted to lessen my chances of dying - not so much that I am afraid of dying - I have had my life and done the best I can with it. I disagree with Robert implying, if not suggesting that to take the vaccine was simply a matter of fear of death. For one thing, we all fear death. Let us be reasonable about that. Some less than others to be sure. The truth does help us greatly in mitigating that fear.

Personally though, I took the vaccine because given the information I had it was (reasonably) safe to do so, though i was aware that it was untested - but have you seen what goes in our food? I take the same, but intrinsically greater risk each day crossing the road. Should I be censured for this too?

But then the effect’s of this “flu” were sold as deadly - Spanish flu style (where people were imprisoned in England for not taking the “vaccine” “treatment” for it back then - believe it or not). I did not have access to the information Americans have had. We do not have the network of exposure their journalists give them either. We are at the very heart of political censorship in his country. Essentially, I took the vaccine because I am the last man standing in my family who A/ has awareness of the Truth, and B/ there is no one else here to help them otherwise. Yes I am afeared of death to a normal degree, but I would feel totally unjustified in not taking the vaccine (at that time) simply to leave my family without my duty to them fulfilled. Did we not, both English and American, go fight the Nazis for the same reason? Thus it is not unusual to risk our lives, via vaccine or bullet, to protect the welfare of our children and family. It is inbuilt into us to give our lives fr our children. Well, we have to be here to do that, yes?

Having said that, knowing what I know now, I will not be taking any more of it and indeed, have refused two offers to do so from my doctor. I do not think Robert was speaking from an uninformed point of view as in above and beyond death and unforeseen risks, or Indeed, questioning the faith or sanity of others by his remark. What I do see is that our American brothers and sisters have and had, a huge advantage in information gathering than we did over here. So naturally they speak from an informed point of view. Just as well, as their comments have saved both me and my wife from further risk. Their country is a lot more free than we are in our speech - just look at the persecution their journalists get compared with our adored government lackeys. Thus for me at least, I do not read injury into what is said by those who were better informed than we. My motive for my family sits comfortably with my conscience, my being uninformed about the vaccine pales against my desire to be here for my family, Robert’s enthusiasm must be seen within context of information, culture and message - could have been more ‘holistically inclusive’, sure, but that hardly matters because this site is no place of sanctuary from division via all sorts of attack tools used by Satan. Divide and conquer. So, at such times as this when choice of words causes upset, we must look to the motive. Therein comes quietude of soul and spirit, gratefulness for the provision of insight, and the development of tolerance for those who must labour and suffer under the “American Way.” At least they keep us informed! One last point though, but worth considering, the Americans brought Spam into this country - and we worry over vaccines?!!
I totally agree. Thank you BARNABY I had a private conversation about this with a member last night and I said when BARNABY wakes up I know BARNABY will be a voice of reason. You have a gift for words with the ability to calm a storm.
 

Paula

Well-known member
Paula - do not beat yourself up over this vaccine thing. What is done is done. Do you not think Jehovah protects those He loves? The problem with the world today - not least on this site, is that we fixate on what threatens us and it drags us down. My whole life has been given over to the “end times” watchtower doom and gloom, sin, just living in this dreadful world. It has to stop if we are to maintain the hope. The bible points to the times we live in. It does not detail them - for good reason. It asks instead, pleads, for us to have faith. Faith is given us though understanding, and understanding is given us through praying for it. It builds trust. Confidence in Jehovah. It lifts us above the cares of this world, though does not protect us from it - to a degree - for we must endure to prove our faith. This is critical for our spiritual well-being because it gives us an “understanding” (personal to each of us according to our faith) that Jehovah is aware of us, just as He is, even of a single sparrow. The more we dwell upon, deepen, explore, understand the meaning of what that means, the greater and more tangible our faith will become to us, to our soul, to our very concept of living. Quit treading through the dog-muck of life - step over it. Shit happens. It is all around us. Listen to fears by all means, be informed, but do so with understanding of the Spirit in heart and mind, in application to our souls. That will give you a balance of joy like no other - the “rose growing in the rubbish dump” as Watchtower were fond of saying (but could never grasp the meaning of).👍
I do agree with what you say. I dont beat myself up about it. I do think our American brother and sisters are less censored than we are, less information. We do live under Tyranny but it's not with a boot yet, but with ongoing propaganda. I have a mini version of it at work. The scriptures are definitely helping me - hopefully faith will sustain me.
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
It seems to have got into a loop these rumours of wars and reports of wars; Scott Ritter has run out of click bait, Doug Mcgregor too 'Its all over for Israel', 'It's all over for Ukraine' It makes you want to press the button yourself and get over and done but at least we are on first rung of the ladder next stop 'Peace and Security' and job done. Privilege to have had a place here watching the little one not remain a little one. Seems many if not all are schooled up with the knowledge.
 

kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
I am missing where the judgment of death comes in for believing 1914.
When Jesus comes, he separates sheep and goats. All that accept the savior the Devil provides (As you put it.) are goats. The goats take the mark, and they get death. The sheep are who refuse the mark/the Devil's savior, they get life.

[24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.][31 When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”]

[7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
I am missing where the judgment of death comes in for believing 1914.
When Jesus comes, he separates sheep and goats. All that accept the savior the Devil provides (As you put it.) are goats. The goats take the mark, and they get death. The sheep are who refuse the mark/the Devil's savior, they get life.

[24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.][31 When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”]

[7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
Can’t ever recall Robert stating that everyone believing in the 1914 tripe are automatically condemned.
That’s not decided til they take or reject the mark of the beast however since,as Zechariah 8 prophesied that 2/3’s of Gods earthly organization will be cut off during Jehovahs day, it seems reasonable to conclude that one’s strong belief in the 1914 declaration by JW leadership will be powerfully instrumental in their stumbling and death.
So indirectly their belief in 1914 means death to those 2/3’s.
Your legs must be getting tired muddying the water.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I do agree with what you say. I dont beat myself up about it. I do think our American brother and sisters are less censored than we are, less information. We do live under Tyranny but it's not with a boot yet, but with ongoing propaganda. I have a mini version of it at work. The scriptures are definitely helping me - hopefully faith will sustain me.
I know what you mean about work. At various times I was the only man in the team - outnumbered about 15 - 1, so I got to know tyranny well. Your faith will sustain you.…..and knowing what day was safe to come into work helped too.
 

Frank D

Well-known member
Can’t ever recall Robert stating that everyone believing in the 1914 tripe are automatically condemned.
That’s not decided til they take or reject the mark
of the beast however since,as Zechariah 8 prophesied that 2/3’s of Gods earthly organization will be cut off during Jehovahs day, it seems reasonable to conclude that one’s strong belief in the 1914 declaration by JW leadership will be powerfully instrumental in their stumbling and death.
So indirectly their belief in 1914 means death to those 2/3’s.
Your legs must be getting tired muddying the water.
Nothing muddy about it!

It is the Scriptures that say:

[9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.]

According to what is written, those that fall for the deceptive influence (the lying signs/wonders) are who believe the LIE. Those that believe such it is said of them that they will perish/not be saved (they are automatically condemned) they did not love truth/did not believe the truth and took pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is Robert who says the LIE is 1914. If that is the case, then all who believe 1914 will perish/not be saved (are automatically condemned) they did not love truth/did not believe the truth and took pleasure in unrighteousness.

That's, its period! No need to go further. No need to talk about the 'mark' judgment, believing the LIE is a judgment in itself.

But yet you admit that automatically being condemned to death is based on if one takes the 'mark'. That is true, taking the 'mark' is a judgment of death. That being the case does not void the fact that believing the LIE is a judgment of death.

Putting all JWs aside, how many of the 6 billion people that are left after the 2 billion that are killed during the horsemen time, how many of those 6 billion will take the mark and as a result be killed off with the sword from the one seated on the horse? Will their taking the mark have had ANYTHING to do with their believing 1914 or their believing the false prophet????:rolleyes:

The reality is the LIE is not 1914 that comes from the Watchtower, the LIE comes from the false prophet in it misleading all those who will take the mark/support the beast. There are not two different judgments, the MOL and the 8th king are the same.

[9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.]

[2 Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like those of a bear, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And the dragon gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority.]
[11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind. 14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast. 16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]
[9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.]
[20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]
 
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kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
Nothing muddy about it!

It is the Scriptures that say:

[9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.]

According to what is written, those that fall for the deceptive influence (the lying signs/wonders) are who believe the LIE. Those that believe such it is said of them that they will perish/not be saved (they are automatically condemned) they did not love truth/did not believe the truth and took pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is Robert who says the LIE is 1914. If that is the case, then all who believe 1914 will perish/not be saved (are automatically condemned) they did not love truth/did not believe the truth and took pleasure in unrighteousness.

That's, its period! No need to go further. No need to talk about the 'mark' judgment, believing the LIE is a judgment in itself.

But yet you admit that automatically being condemned to death is based on if one takes the 'mark'. That is true, taking the 'mark' is a judgment of death. That being the case does not void the fact that believing the LIE is a judgment of death.

Putting all JWs aside, how many of the 6 billion people that are left after the 2 billion that are killed during the horsemen time, how many of those 6 billion will take the mark and as a result be killed off with the sword from the one seated on the horse? Will their taking the mark have had ANYTHING to do with their believing 1914 or their believing the false prophet????:rolleyes:

The reality is the LIE is not 1914 that comes from the Watchtower, the LIE comes from the false prophet in it misleading all those who will take the mark/support the beast. There are not two different judgments, the MOL and the 8th king are the same.

[9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.]

[2 Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like those of a bear, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And the dragon gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority.]
[11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind. 14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast. 16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]
[9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.]
[20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]
And still Zechariah 8 states that 1/3 will come through that time refined as if through fire.
Refined from what? Many false notions for sure but primarily the myth that Christ began ruling in 1914.
 

Frank D

Well-known member
And still Zechariah 8 states that 1/3 will come through that time refined as if through fire.
Refined from what? Many false notions for sure but primarily the myth that Christ began ruling in 1914.
Yes, that is true.
The 42-months of the 8th king is the time for God's people to be refined. This will be the time that many false notions will be done away and that will include 1914. But 1914 only pertains to JWs. It is not just JWs being refined during that time.

Earlier I asked, putting JW's aside, how many of the 6 billion will take the mark? (2/3-4 billion?) And to note that their taking the mark will have NOTHING to do with them believing 1914.

Now I ask, putting JWs aside, how many of the 6 billion will refuse the mark? (1/3-2 billion?) All of whom that will refuse the mark are going to have their own false notions at the point of being refined. That is the whole point of the refinement. That is why it says that during that time those with insight will impart understanding to many. And that is why it is said a great crowd comes out from that time having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.

[33 And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many. And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days.]
[24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]
[2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.]
[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
[” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.” 8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” 9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.]

[9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”]
 
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