Thursday, April 6 2023 It was Jehovah’s will to crush him

[PJ54]

Thursday, April 6 2023​

Jesus said: “It has been accomplished!”—John 19:30.​

By maintaining his integrity till he died, Jesus accomplished a number of things. First, he proved Satan a liar. Jesus showed that a perfect human could keep perfect integrity in spite of all that Satan could do. Second, Jesus gave his life as a ransom. His sacrificial death made it possible for imperfect humans to have a righteous standing with God, and it gave them the prospect of living forever. Third, Jesus upheld the righteousness of Jehovah’s sovereignty and cleared his Father’s name of reproach. May we live each day as if it were our last chance to maintain our integrity! Then, even if we should face death, we would be able to say, “Jehovah, I have done my best to keep my integrity, to prove Satan a liar, and to vindicate your name and your sovereignty!” w21.04 12 ¶13-14

Memorial Bible reading: (Daytime events: Nisan 15)Matthew 27:62-66(Events after sunset: Nisan 16)Matthew 28:2-4

Examining the Scriptures Daily—2023

It was Jehovah’s will to crush him

Sunday, July 5 He let himself be afflicted, but he would not open his mouth. —Isa. 53:7. When we are under stress, it is difficult to be meek. Our words may become harsh and our tone cold. If you have

e-watchman.com

Sunday, July 5 2020

He let himself be afflicted, but he would not open his mouth. —Isa. 53:7.
When we are under stress, it is difficult to be meek. Our words may become harsh and our tone cold. If you have ever felt stressed, consider the example of Jesus. During the final months of his life on earth, Jesus was under intense stress. He knew that he would be executed and that he would suffer terribly. (John 3:14, 15; Gal. 3:13) Some months before his death, he said that he was distressed. (Luke 12:50) And just days before his death, Jesus said: “I am troubled.” We can sense his humility and his submissiveness to God as he poured out his feelings in prayer. (John 12:27, 28) When the time came, Jesus courageously handed himself over to God’s enemies, who executed him in the most agonizing and humiliating way possible. Despite the stress, despite the suffering, Jesus meekly did God’s will. Without a doubt, we can say that Jesus is the most outstanding example of someone showing meekness under stress! —Isa. 53:10. w19.02 11 ¶14-15

Every Sunday-schooler knows that Jesus died. It is repeated so often “Jesus died for our sins,” or some similar saying, that it loses its meaning. Yes, Jesus died a substitutionary death. He gave his life as a ransom. There is more to it though.

Jesus could have died a painless death and his perfect human life still would have corresponded in value to the life of the first man, Adam, before he became a sinner. The 53rd chapter of Isaiah touches upon it. Verse 10 states: “But it was Jehovah’s will to crush him, and he let him become sick.” The original NWT stated that ‘Jehovah took delight in crushing him.’

What does that mean? Obviously God did not enjoy seeing his beloved son tortured and die an agonizing death. Neither did Jehovah personally perpetrate the crimes against Jesus that led to his death. To fully appreciate the issue and why it was God’s will that Jesus be crushed we must consult the book of Job.

In the first two chapters, we are allowed a behind-the-scenes glimpse into Heaven and the presence of an angel identified as Satan. Jehovah specifically called him out to say what was on his mind. God wanted the issue to be out in the open. Basically, the rebel angel said that all of God’s intelligent creatures were only loyal to God to get out of him whatever they could and that no one would be true to God if it involved suffering or death.

In the case of Job, God allowed Satan to take away everything except Job’s life. Job was true to God— even as an imperfect man.

It was evident from the moment Jesus was baptized that Satan was intent upon tempting or pressuring Jesus into being disloyal to God. The issue was the same as with Job. Prior to his coming to the earth Michael was the most privileged Son of God. He was the very first angel Jehovah had fathered. When the Devil rebelled and called into question the integrity of all of God’s sons no one was in a position to provide a more unequivocal answer than the favored Firstborn of all creation.

The apostle Paul explained it in his letter to the Philippians, where he wrote: “Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake.”

In the human sphere typically the sons of rich and powerful men are privileged and enjoy many advantages. For example, the sons of wealthy families often avoid military service. Or, if they are conscripted they are assigned to safe areas away from the combat zone. No one was more privileged than the Firstborn. Yet he gave that all up and became human.

And there is that word “obedient.” Jesus knew it was God’s will for him to die to pay the ransom. He also well knew the issues that Satan raised. He knew it was God’s will for him to be crushed by Satan in order to demonstrate before all the angels that the issue was over. Jesus submitted himself to God’s will. He obeyed into death.

That is why when Jesus returned to the spirit realm he is said to have “preached to the spirits in prison.” It was not a message of good news. It probably wasn’t a vocal message at all. But the very fact that Jehovah resurrected Jesus as an immortal spirit meant that Christ had been faithful. It meant that Satan was exposed as a liar and a false accuser. It meant that the issue Satan had pushed in order to justify his own course of opposition had failed. The resurrection of Christ meant the prophecy God issued in Eden regarding the serpent bruising the heel of the seed of the woman had been fulfilled. Since his exaltation to the right hand of God, the glorified seed is now in a position to crush the Devil out of existence.

Since Jesus established his congregation as a pillar and support of the truth Satan has sought to infiltrate and subvert. He has been widely successful. Since Jesus’ obedience to God was a humiliating defeat for the evil one the Devil has used his influence over church leaders to elevate Jesus to become God. Hence, the Trinity is considered the foundation truth of the Devil’s phony Christianity. The Trinity effectively obfuscates the truth of Jesus’ obedience to his Father. After all, how can God obey or disobey himself?

But the truth is, Jesus could have disobeyed. Even moments before his arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus said in prayer: “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”

Had Jesus flinched it would be a whole different world. I shudder to think what the outcome might have been had Jesus not submitted to being crushed.

 

[Edith]

I shudder to think what the outcome might have been had Jesus not submitted to being crushed.

Thanks PJ for this edifying article;

We now see the contours of it

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

It was Jehovah’s will to crush him

Sunday, July 5 He let himself be afflicted, but he would not open his mouth. —Isa. 53:7. When we are under stress, it is difficult to be meek. Our words may become harsh and our tone cold. If you have

e-watchman.com

View attachment 3651
Sunday, July 5 2020


Every Sunday-schooler knows that Jesus died. It is repeated so often “Jesus died for our sins,” or some similar saying, that it loses its meaning. Yes, Jesus died a substitutionary death. He gave his life as a ransom. There is more to it though.

Jesus could have died a painless death and his perfect human life still would have corresponded in value to the life of the first man, Adam, before he became a sinner. The 53rd chapter of Isaiah touches upon it. Verse 10 states: “But it was Jehovah’s will to crush him, and he let him become sick.” The original NWT stated that ‘Jehovah took delight in crushing him.’

What does that mean? Obviously God did not enjoy seeing his beloved son tortured and die an agonizing death. Neither did Jehovah personally perpetrate the crimes against Jesus that led to his death. To fully appreciate the issue and why it was God’s will that Jesus be crushed we must consult the book of Job.

In the first two chapters, we are allowed a behind-the-scenes glimpse into Heaven and the presence of an angel identified as Satan. Jehovah specifically called him out to say what was on his mind. God wanted the issue to be out in the open. Basically, the rebel angel said that all of God’s intelligent creatures were only loyal to God to get out of him whatever they could and that no one would be true to God if it involved suffering or death.

In the case of Job, God allowed Satan to take away everything except Job’s life. Job was true to God— even as an imperfect man.

It was evident from the moment Jesus was baptized that Satan was intent upon tempting or pressuring Jesus into being disloyal to God. The issue was the same as with Job. Prior to his coming to the earth Michael was the most privileged Son of God. He was the very first angel Jehovah had fathered. When the Devil rebelled and called into question the integrity of all of God’s sons no one was in a position to provide a more unequivocal answer than the favored Firstborn of all creation.

The apostle Paul explained it in his letter to the Philippians, where he wrote: “Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake.”

In the human sphere typically the sons of rich and powerful men are privileged and enjoy many advantages. For example, the sons of wealthy families often avoid military service. Or, if they are conscripted they are assigned to safe areas away from the combat zone. No one was more privileged than the Firstborn. Yet he gave that all up and became human.

And there is that word “obedient.” Jesus knew it was God’s will for him to die to pay the ransom. He also well knew the issues that Satan raised. He knew it was God’s will for him to be crushed by Satan in order to demonstrate before all the angels that the issue was over. Jesus submitted himself to God’s will. He obeyed into death.

That is why when Jesus returned to the spirit realm he is said to have “preached to the spirits in prison.” It was not a message of good news. It probably wasn’t a vocal message at all. But the very fact that Jehovah resurrected Jesus as an immortal spirit meant that Christ had been faithful. It meant that Satan was exposed as a liar and a false accuser. It meant that the issue Satan had pushed in order to justify his own course of opposition had failed. The resurrection of Christ meant the prophecy God issued in Eden regarding the serpent bruising the heel of the seed of the woman had been fulfilled. Since his exaltation to the right hand of God, the glorified seed is now in a position to crush the Devil out of existence.

Since Jesus established his congregation as a pillar and support of the truth Satan has sought to infiltrate and subvert. He has been widely successful. Since Jesus’ obedience to God was a humiliating defeat for the evil one the Devil has used his influence over church leaders to elevate Jesus to become God. Hence, the Trinity is considered the foundation truth of the Devil’s phony Christianity. The Trinity effectively obfuscates the truth of Jesus’ obedience to his Father. After all, how can God obey or disobey himself?

But the truth is, Jesus could have disobeyed. Even moments before his arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus said in prayer: “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”

Had Jesus flinched it would be a whole different world. I shudder to think what the outcome might have been had Jesus not submitted to being crushed.

“Had Jesus flinched it would be a whole different world. I shudder to think what the outcome might have been had Jesus not submitted to being crushed.”

The bible speaks of the outcome as inevitable: “With Jehovah, all things are possible.” “Love never fails.” “Jehovah cannot lie”, “The One knowing from the beginning, the end” …”You will bruise him in the heal, he will bruise you in the head.” It is part of the human condition to contemplate the unthinkable, but in the realm of Jehovah, there is no such thing as doubt.

 

[Watchman]

The bible speaks of the outcome as inevitable: “With Jehovah, all things are possible.” “Love never fails.” “Jehovah cannot lie”, “The One knowing from the beginning, the end” …”You will bruise him in the heal, he will bruise you in the head.” It is part of the human condition to contemplate the unthinkable, but in the realm of Jehovah, there is no such thing as doubt.

Because Jesus had free will there was always the possibility that he would not submit to a torturous, humiliating death. That is why one of the last things Jesus said was "It has been accomplished." True, Jehovah had staked his reputation on a perfect man carrying out His will, but Adam was a perfect man too and we know how that ended. Once Jesus was resurrected and back in heaven that is when he "preached to the spirits in prison." Jesus' faithfulness to death sealed the demons' doom.

Who were the spirits in prison to whom Jesus “preached”?

QUESTION: If there is no conscious awareness after death, how could the "spirits in prison" be preached to by Christ after his death (1Pet 3:18-20) and how could the good news be "declared also to the dead" (1Pet 4:6)? - Stumper questions for Jehovah's Witnesses, #41 Perhaps a better question

e-watchman.com

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Because Jesus had free will there was always the possibility that he would not submit to a torturous, humiliating death. That is why one of the last things Jesus said was "It has been accomplished." True, Jehovah had staked his reputation on a perfect man carrying out His will, but Adam was a perfect man too and we know how that ended. Once Jesus was resurrected and back in heaven that is when he "preached to the spirits in prison." Jesus' faithfulness to death sealed the demons' doom.

Who were the spirits in prison to whom Jesus “preached”?

QUESTION: If there is no conscious awareness after death, how could the "spirits in prison" be preached to by Christ after his death (1Pet 3:18-20) and how could the good news be "declared also to the dead" (1Pet 4:6)? - Stumper questions for Jehovah's Witnesses, #41 Perhaps a better question

e-watchman.com

True. I do realise that, but I have a conflict between the scriptures I quoted and the very point you raise. Jehovah went on to say to satan that he, satan would bruise Christ in the heel, and that Christ would bruise him in the head. How then can we reconcile that with doubt? Adam was not created with a mission, but a task. Therefore there was no onus on Jehovah to state what his purpose was in any respect other than to fill the earth and subdue it. That being the case, there was no prophesy required to state either his loyalty or any other purpose. Reputation would not be a part of the issue as no purpose other than to fill the earth and subdue it was mentioned. Adam’s ability to carry out the task would not be measured by “success“ but by endeavour. We all garden and reproduce with varying degrees of skill and the satisfaction is seen as our standard and in real terms, so is interpretation of “perfection” in that standard. We are carrying out our purpose. It is the purity in the act rather than its success, otherwise we would be automatons. Where would be the value in our accomplishments?

Contradicting myself, perhaps, I agree on the issue of Jesus saying that it, his task, had been accomplished. That he had the right to collapse in his work is true as well, but we would have to ask if that really was a choice, because choice and obligation are very closely related. It is instinctive. That issue is also evidenced by his asking of his father if the cup could be taken from his hand. Jesus did not say he did not wish to give up his role - he had to die in any event if he was to return to heaven. He also knew what death was, and he also knew his father would resurrect him. Perhaps it was the manner of his death that troubled him. Thus it was a reasonable request. The only earthly example that may equate is that which a mother would do to protect her child. You must have seen that picture of a German soldier about to shoot a child and his mother. Her reaction to hold her child and turn her back on her assailant as an act of inevitability. She did not run, but she wished it could be different. That is the experience of mankind and perhaps Jesus came to realise that - as a man. That is also reflective of his sacrifice. It is also what makes the sacrifice so much more than a token.

This is the point for me in consideration of your writing, in that the greater the responsibility and outcomes, the less choice there is. How can Jehovah not know that? Thus, the certainty with which He could utter those prophetic words and their inevitability. Adam was a different issue altogether. How then can we rationalise on this in terms of prophesy, because there must be a truth that is concurrent with both what is recorded in fact, and in the prophesy Jehovah uttered at the time of Adam’s fall.

 

[KevinB]

True. I do realise that, but I have a conflict between the scriptures I quoted and the very point you raise. Jehovah went on to say to satan that he, satan would bruise Christ in the heel, and that Christ would bruise him in the head. How then can we reconcile that with doubt? Adam was not created with a mission, but a task. Therefore there was no onus on Jehovah to state what his purpose was in any respect other than to fill the earth and subdue it. That being the case, there was no prophesy required to state either his loyalty or any other purpose. Reputation would not be a part of the issue as no purpose other than to fill the earth and subdue it was mentioned. Adam’s ability to carry out the task would not be measured by “success“ but by endeavour. We all garden and reproduce with varying degrees of skill and the satisfaction is seen as our standard and in real terms, so is interpretation of “perfection” in that standard. We are carrying out our purpose. It is the purity in the act rather than its success, otherwise we would be automatons. Where would be the value in our accomplishments?

Contradicting myself, perhaps, I agree on the issue of Jesus saying that it, his task, had been accomplished. That he had the right to collapse in his work is true as well, but we would have to ask if that really was a choice, because choice and obligation are very closely related. It is instinctive. That issue is also evidenced by his asking of his father if the cup could be taken from his hand. Jesus did not say he did not wish to give up his role - he had to die in any event if he was to return to heaven. He also knew what death was, and he also knew his father would resurrect him. Perhaps it was the manner of his death that troubled him. Thus it was a reasonable request. The only earthly example that may equate is that which a mother would do to protect her child. You must have seen that picture of a German soldier about to shoot a child and his mother. Her reaction to hold her child and turn her back on her assailant as an act of inevitability. She did not run, but she wished it could be different. That is the experience of mankind and perhaps Jesus came to realise that - as a man. That is also reflective of his sacrifice. It is also what makes the sacrifice so much more than a token.

This is the point for me in consideration of your writing, in that the greater the responsibility and outcomes, the less choice there is. How can Jehovah not know that? Thus, the certainty with which He could utter those prophetic words and their inevitability. Adam was a different issue altogether. How then can we rationalise on this in terms of prophesy, because there must be a truth that is concurrent with both what is recorded in fact, and in the prophesy Jehovah uttered at the time of Adam’s fall.

I believe what you are actually trying to address is the issue of integrity. Neither God, Christ or the angels make us do anything, The choice must be ours. Did prophecy manipulate Jesus or was it a vote of confidence. Then there is love, of which God is, and which was in his Son, Jesus. When Jesus prayed that night, he was concerned about the massive reproach brought on God by his impalement as a criminal, and as a blasphemer. He prayed the way he did because he didn't want to see God's name reproached that way, he wasn't worried about his pain of death. I call that love, and God knew his son, and his Son knew him. Only a fool would do what Jesus did because he had to. In fact a fool would not do it. Look up integrity and love in the insight volumes.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

I believe what you are actually trying to address is the issue of integrity. Neither God, Christ or the angels make us do anything, The choice must be ours. Did prophecy manipulate Jesus or was it a vote of confidence. Then there is love, of which God is, and which was in his Son, Jesus. When Jesus prayed that night, he was concerned about the massive reproach brought on God by his impalement as a criminal, and as a blasphemer. He prayed the way he did because he didn't want to see God's name reproached that way, he wasn't worried about his pain of death. I call that love, and God knew his son, and his Son knew him. Only a fool would do what Jesus did because he had to. In fact a fool would not do it. Look up integrity and love in the insight volumes.

Thanks Kevin. That’s very helpful. I had not looked at it from that angle. I don’t have the insight volumes, but I shall certainly ponder on what you said. It has that sense of truth to it .

 

[BrooksB]

Thanks Kevin. That’s very helpful. I had not looked at it from that angle. I don’t have the insight volumes, but I shall certainly ponder on what you said. It has that sense of truth to it .

BTG, you can find the Insight Volumes on JW.org library.

 

[Watchman]

The whole issue began because an angel slandered Jehovah and implied he is a liar and cannot be trusted. And in reality, God's purpose has so far gone unfulfilled. That is because in Eden God's stated will was that the perfect man and woman (who have been dead now for about 5,000 years) were expected to complete God's creative work which ceased on day six. God staked his reputation on two perfect humans. They failed God and were not allowed to stay in Eden or complete the paradise project that God had purposed.

We are now deep into the seventh day and the earth is about as far away from being a paradise as one can imagine. And needless to say, human perfection is an impossible dream too. And now Satan has the nations pointing their nuclear missiles at each other and threatening to turn the earth into a radioactive cinder. Who would have ever imagined it would come down to this?

Because Satan slandered God Jehovah has taken it very personally. Why shouldn't he? It is impossible for God to lie and yet one of his own sons stands up and declares everyone's Father to be a liar! This is some serious stuff. So, Jehovah God has made it a point to declare his purpose in advance and allow Satan the opportunity to prove to all onlookers that He is a liar. Obviously, Jesus proved the Devil to be a liar. But in God's fairness, and He is always fair and just and humble, He allows the Devil to keep trying to prove that Jehovah cannot accomplish what He says. That is why the Bible is all about prophecy. God says what He is going to do and gives the resister an opportunity to try and screw it up.

We know that God has purposed to redeem a chosen few, stated in Revelation to be 144,000. Giving the precise number in advance is very important and key to the accomplishment of God's purpose. Unlike Jesus, though, these men and women are sinful. And yet Jehovah has purposed to bestow upon them the very same quality of life that only God possesses. No angel possesses what God has purposed to give to decrepit humans. Of course, Jesus was the first to be given indestructibility. But Jesus had been God's favored Son from the beginning. But giving immortality to sinful humans seems like Jehovah is taunting Satan - as if saying: "what are you going to do about it, big talker"?

So, even though Jesus proved Satan to be a liar now God's purpose depends upon the obedience of those remaining chosen ones. Just think, after the final sealing occurs, after God has concluded the calling and choosing of Kingdom heirs; after Christianity is concluded, which is what the conclusion of the system is, if just one of the chosen is unfaithful then God's purpose fails. Satan wins. 143,999 won't cut it. God has declared there will be 144,000 standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb. That is why Jehovah has also declared in advance that there will be 7,000 remaining ones. They have not been sealed and revealed yet. The revealing of the sons of God is something that will happen post-tribulation. But God's purpose and reputation will all come down to those 7,000 sons displaying the same spirit as Christ when he faced the torture stake. That is when God will put hooks in Satan's jaws and lure him into killing the sons of God in a vain effort to break their integrity. Pretty amazing when you think about it.

It is late in the day. Satan is moving to blow up the world and release his tyrannical beast. Jehovah's purpose to have a loyal remnant ain't looking too good at this point. What stands in the way is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and those apostate pretenders who claim to be apostles. And Jehovah long ago foretold how He is going to deal with this final impediment, which, of course, has been the topic that has occupied my writing time for these past 20 years.

 

[Watchman]

One more comment on this. It seems to me that the ultimate prophecy is what Paul was inspired to write concerning "whenever it is they are saying 'peace and security.'" JWs are especially attuned to this due to the fact the NWT is one of the few translations that word it this way. Most say "peace and safety." And there seems to be little doubt that those exact words will be the headliner at some point in a very pronounced way.

That being said, what will happen when they say "peace and security" and instead of Armageddon, as the WT has led JW's to expect, the sudden destruction comes in the form of world war and the collapse of the Anglo-American system? Then the test will be whether to believe what has happened fulfills prophecy or stick with the WT. That is when the parting of the ways will come between the sons of day and light and the sons of the wicked one.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

BTG, you can find the Insight Volumes on JW.org library.

Thanks.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

The whole issue began because an angel slandered Jehovah and implied he is a liar and cannot be trusted. And in reality, God's purpose has so far gone unfulfilled. That is because in Eden God's stated will was that the perfect man and woman (who have been dead now for about 5,000 years) were expected to complete God's creative work which ceased on day six. God staked his reputation on two perfect humans. They failed God and were not allowed to stay in Eden or complete the paradise project that God had purposed.

We are now deep into the seventh day and the earth is about as far away from being a paradise as one can imagine. And needless to say, human perfection is an impossible dream too. And now Satan has the nations pointing their nuclear missiles at each other and threatening to turn the earth into a radioactive cinder. Who would have ever imagined it would come down to this?

Because Satan slandered God Jehovah has taken it very personally. Why shouldn't he? It is impossible for God to lie and yet one of his own sons stands up and declares everyone's Father to be a liar! This is some serious stuff. So, Jehovah God has made it a point to declare his purpose in advance and allow Satan the opportunity to prove to all onlookers that He is a liar. Obviously, Jesus proved the Devil to be a liar. But in God's fairness, and He is always fair and just and humble, He allows the Devil to keep trying to prove that Jehovah cannot accomplish what He says. That is why the Bible is all about prophecy. God says what He is going to do and gives the resister an opportunity to try and screw it up.

We know that God has purposed to redeem a chosen few, stated in Revelation to be 144,000. Giving the precise number in advance is very important and key to the accomplishment of God's purpose. Unlike Jesus, though, these men and women are sinful. And yet Jehovah has purposed to bestow upon them the very same quality of life that only God possesses. No angel possesses what God has purposed to give to decrepit humans. Of course, Jesus was the first to be given indestructibility. But Jesus had been God's favored Son from the beginning. But giving immortality to sinful humans seems like Jehovah is taunting Satan - as if saying: "what are you going to do about it, big talker"?

So, even though Jesus proved Satan to be a liar now God's purpose depends upon the obedience of those remaining chosen ones. Just think, after the final sealing occurs, after God has concluded the calling and choosing of Kingdom heirs; after Christianity is concluded, which is what the conclusion of the system is, if just one of the chosen is unfaithful then God's purpose fails. Satan wins. 143,999 won't cut it. God has declared there will be 144,000 standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb. That is why Jehovah has also declared in advance that there will be 7,000 remaining ones. They have not been sealed and revealed yet. The revealing of the sons of God is something that will happen post-tribulation. But God's purpose and reputation will all come down to those 7,000 sons displaying the same spirit as Christ when he faced the torture stake. That is when God will put hooks in Satan's jaws and lure him into killing the sons of God in a vain effort to break their integrity. Pretty amazing when you think about it.

It is late in the day. Satan is moving to blow up the world and release his tyrannical beast. Jehovah's purpose to have a loyal remnant ain't looking too good at this point. What stands in the way is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and those apostate pretenders who claim to be apostles. And Jehovah long ago foretold how He is going to deal with this final impediment, which, of course, has been the topic that has occupied my writing time for these past 20 years.

“Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to those shepherds, ‘This is what the Lord God says: “Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should the shepherds not feed the flock? You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock. Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you searched for the lost; but with force and with violence you have dominated them. They scattered for lack of a shepherd, and they became food for every animal of the field and scattered. Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: “As I live,” declares the Lord God, “certainly, because My flock has become plunder, and My flock has become food for all the animals of the field for lack of a shepherd, and My shepherds did not search for My flock, but rather the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed My flock, “As for you, My flock, this is what the Lord God says: ‘Behold, I am going to judge between one sheep and another, between the rams and the male goats. Is it too little a thing for you to feed in the good pasture, that you must trample with your feet the rest of your pastures? Or too little for you to drink the clear waters, that you must muddy the rest with your feet? But as for My flock, they must eat what you trample with your feet, and drink what you muddy with your feet!’ ” Therefore, this is what the Lord God says to them: “Behold, I, I Myself will also judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. Since you push away with your side and shoulder, and gore all the weak with your horns until you have scattered them abroad, therefore, I will save My flock, and they will no longer be plunder; and I will judge between one sheep and another. “Then I will appoint over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd. And I, the Lord, will be their God, and My servant David will be prince among them; I the Lord have spoken. “And I will make a covenant of peace with them and eliminate harmful animals from the land, so that they may live securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.
Ezekiel 34:2‭-‬5‭, ‬7‭-‬8‭, ‬17‭-‬25

 

[Truth_Seeker]

But I have a few things against you, because you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit sexual immorality. So you too, have some who in the same way hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will wage war against them with the sword of My mouth.
Revelation 2:14‭-‬16

 

[Truth_Seeker]

However, Satan have lost from the beginning because he underestimated Jehovah's creation.

And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, holding the seal of the living God; and he called out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth, or the sea, or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel. Revelation 7:2‭-‬4
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down, the one who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. Revelation 12:10‭-‬11

And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to learn the song except the 144,000 who had been purchased from the earth. These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are celibate. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless. Revelation 14:3‭-‬5

These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of Lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
Revelation 17:14

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

 

[Truth_Seeker]

Satan may be permitted to take control over organisations through corupt leaders who turn the people away from the pure worship to Jehovah towards Devil' s religion, but he will never succeed in controling the true sons of God.

Now Ahab told Jezebel everything that Elijah had done, and how he had killed all the prophets with the sword. Then Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah, saying, “So may the gods do to me and more so, if by about this time tomorrow I do not make your life like the life of one of them.”
1 Kings 19:1‭-‬2

Then he said, “I have been very zealous for the Lord, the God of armies; for the sons of Israel have abandoned Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they have sought to take my life.” ...Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him.” 1 Kings 19:14‭, ‬18

But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
Revelation 2:20

“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. And those who have insight will shine like the glow of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. Daniel 12:1‭, ‬3

 

[KevinB]

Thanks Kevin. That’s very helpful. I had not looked at it from that angle. I don’t have the insight volumes, but I shall certainly ponder on what you said. It has that sense of truth to it

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

Take a look at that passage you quoted. There are 2 things mentioned, those executed by the axe and those who didn't worship beast or recieve its mark. Not all face the beast system at the end do they?

 

[KevinB]

The whole issue began because an angel slandered Jehovah and implied he is a liar and cannot be trusted. And in reality, God's purpose has so far gone unfulfilled. That is because in Eden God's stated will was that the perfect man and woman (who have been dead now for about 5,000 years) were expected to complete God's creative work which ceased on day six. God staked his reputation on two perfect humans. They failed God and were not allowed to stay in Eden or complete the paradise project that God had purposed.

We are now deep into the seventh day and the earth is about as far away from being a paradise as one can imagine. And needless to say, human perfection is an impossible dream too. And now Satan has the nations pointing their nuclear missiles at each other and threatening to turn the earth into a radioactive cinder. Who would have ever imagined it would come down to this?

Because Satan slandered God Jehovah has taken it very personally. Why shouldn't he? It is impossible for God to lie and yet one of his own sons stands up and declares everyone's Father to be a liar! This is some serious stuff. So, Jehovah God has made it a point to declare his purpose in advance and allow Satan the opportunity to prove to all onlookers that He is a liar. Obviously, Jesus proved the Devil to be a liar. But in God's fairness, and He is always fair and just and humble, He allows the Devil to keep trying to prove that Jehovah cannot accomplish what He says. That is why the Bible is all about prophecy. God says what He is going to do and gives the resister an opportunity to try and screw it up.

We know that God has purposed to redeem a chosen few, stated in Revelation to be 144,000. Giving the precise number in advance is very important and key to the accomplishment of God's purpose. Unlike Jesus, though, these men and women are sinful. And yet Jehovah has purposed to bestow upon them the very same quality of life that only God possesses. No angel possesses what God has purposed to give to decrepit humans. Of course, Jesus was the first to be given indestructibility. But Jesus had been God's favored Son from the beginning. But giving immortality to sinful humans seems like Jehovah is taunting Satan - as if saying: "what are you going to do about it, big talker"?

So, even though Jesus proved Satan to be a liar now God's purpose depends upon the obedience of those remaining chosen ones. Just think, after the final sealing occurs, after God has concluded the calling and choosing of Kingdom heirs; after Christianity is concluded, which is what the conclusion of the system is, if just one of the chosen is unfaithful then God's purpose fails. Satan wins. 143,999 won't cut it. God has declared there will be 144,000 standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb. That is why Jehovah has also declared in advance that there will be 7,000 remaining ones. They have not been sealed and revealed yet. The revealing of the sons of God is something that will happen post-tribulation. But God's purpose and reputation will all come down to those 7,000 sons displaying the same spirit as Christ when he faced the torture stake. That is when God will put hooks in Satan's jaws and lure him into killing the sons of God in a vain effort to break their integrity. Pretty amazing when you think about it.

It is late in the day. Satan is moving to blow up the world and release his tyrannical beast. Jehovah's purpose to have a loyal remnant ain't looking too good at this point. What stands in the way is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and those apostate pretenders who claim to be apostles. And Jehovah long ago foretold how He is going to deal with this final impediment, which, of course, has been the topic that has occupied my writing time for these past 20 years.

You keep suggesting the 7000 are literal, when Paul used it figuratively to identify a remnant, are the 10th of the city literal too? 1440,00 ?

 

[alan ford]

You keep suggesting the 7000 are literal, when Paul used it figuratively to identify a remnant, are the 10th of the city literal too? 1440,00 ?

My opinion too is that 144000 are symbolic. A symbolic number presented as a large multiple of 12, denoting perfection. It shows that it's organized in a balanced manner. Its arangement follows a pattern of 12 representing divine perfection. If the number is literal then the 12000 out of every tribe must also be literal in which case there is a question about who the 12 tribes are...

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Take a look at that passage you quoted. There are 2 things mentioned, those executed by the axe and those who didn't worship beast or recieve its mark. Not all face the beast system at the end do they?

I don’t know what you are referring to. Could you quote please.

 

[Watchman]

You keep suggesting the 7000 are literal, when Paul used it figuratively to identify a remnant, are the 10th of the city literal too? 1440,00 ?

I am not suggesting anything. I know these things. When Jehovah told Elijah he had 7,000 who had not kissed Baal that was a literal number. Elijah was the greatest prophet of ancient times and yet he didn't write one word of prophecy. He lived it. Elijah along with Moses showed up in the vision of the transfiguration. An lo, Elijah and Moses are depicted as the two witnesses who are eyewitnesses to the manifestation of Jesus Christ, also known as the parousia. And not coincidently, when the two witnesses are executed the 7,000 are also killed. This is a sacred secret that I have revealed, perhaps to the unworthy.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

My opinion too is that 144000 are symbolic. A symbolic number presented as a large multiple of 12, denoting perfection. It shows that it's organized in a balanced manner. Its arangement follows a pattern of 12 representing divine perfection. If the number is literal then the 12000 out of every tribe must also be literal in which case there is a question about who the 12 tribes are...

“Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked from every tribe of the Israelites: After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
Revelation 7:3‭-‬4‭, ‬9

The number it s not symbolic, it's literal. This is how Jehovah decided for his heavenly organisation to be structured. The number 144,000 is caped whereas the great multitude can't be counted because there is no specified number of people that can join to that class. It's not random that we had 12 patriarchs of Israel, 12 disciples of Jesus.
As for who belongs to the house of Israel Paul gives us a clear definition.

One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh. Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God. Romans 2:28‭-‬29

It was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham and his descendants that he would inherit the world, but through the righteousness that comes from faith. For if those who adhere to the law are the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us, as it is written, “I have made you father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not exist. Romans 4:13‭-‬14‭, ‬16‭-‬17

For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:26‭-‬29

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you. Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, [perhaps] he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
Romans 11:17‭-‬22

 

[alan ford]

The number it s not symbolic, it's literal. This is how Jehovah decided for his heavenly organisation to be structured. The number 144,000 is caped whereas the great multitude can't be counted because there is no specified number of people that can join to that class. It's not random that we had 12 patriarchs of Israel, 12 disciples of Jesus.
As for who belongs to the house of Israel Paul gives us a clear definition.

Thanks for your explanation. I am thinking since there are no literal tribes but symbolic ones that this number is also symbolic.

 

[Watchman]

Thanks for your explanation. I am thinking since there are no literal tribes but symbolic ones that this number is also symbolic.

But there were 12 literal apostles which are the foundational stones of the heavenly organization, modeled after the 12 sons of Israel that became the literal 12 tribes of Israel. Paul revealed that anointed Christians are like building stones that will become part of a spiritual temple. The 21st chapter of Revelation reveals the finished product, the city of God. The angel reveals its measurements. "Now the one who was speaking with me was holding a golden reed as a measure in order to measure the city and its gates and its wall. And the city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as its width. And he measured the city with the reed, 12,000 stadia; its length and width and height are equal. He also measured its wall, 144 cubits according to a man’s measure, at the same time an angel’s measure."

Now there is some symbolism for ya. Think you can figure it out?

 

[The God Pill]

My opinion too is that 144000 are symbolic. A symbolic number presented as a large multiple of 12, denoting perfection. It shows that it's organized in a balanced manner. Its arangement follows a pattern of 12 representing divine perfection. If the number is literal then the 12000 out of every tribe must also be literal in which case there is a question about who the 12 tribes are...

James wrote to the twelve tribes scattered about the ten tribes are pretty much anonymous at this point and have had 2700 years or so to spread across the im not remotely asserting such but who's to say the chosen aren't descendants of Jacob in some manner. If the 144,000 are not literal there's no parameter whatsoever as far as the when Jehovah is ready to initiate the kingdom and start the sequence of events preceding the new system.

 

[alan ford]

But there were 12 literal apostles which are the foundational stones of the heavenly organization, modeled after the 12 sons of Israel that became the literal 12 tribes of Israel. Paul revealed that anointed Christians are like building stones that will become part of a spiritual temple. The 21st chapter of Revelation reveals the finished product, the city of God. The angel reveals its measurements. "Now the one who was speaking with me was holding a golden reed as a measure in order to measure the city and its gates and its wall. And the city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as its width. And he measured the city with the reed, 12,000 stadia; its length and width and height are equal. He also measured its wall, 144 cubits according to a man’s measure, at the same time an angel’s measure."

Now there is some symbolism for ya. Think you can figure it out?

I get it, it represents the twelve apostles, 1 for each of the tribes of Israel. Where I get stuck is that the tribes listed are not a valid list of tribes. It doesn't include Dan and Ephraim but includes Joseph and his son Manasseh which is effectively a double count. Also it includes Levi which wasnt listed in the allotment of land. The listing here is not necessarily for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes but to show a similar organizational structure for Israel of God. This is why I think it's symbolic, or a prophetic number if you will... Basically the whole book of Revelation is symbols. So how do we reconcile this as an only literal number? I am not asserting that this is correct understanding but it's only my opinion based on deduction, right or wrong. Ultimately, I fully trust that Jehovah knows what he's doing and that everything will be made perfectly clear in due time.