Tuesday, April 22 2025 Keep Ready for Jehovah’s Day – Watchtower review.

[PJ54]

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Tuesday, April 22 2025​

Keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah.—2 Pet. 3:12.

As we keep close in mind Jehovah’s day, we are moved to share the good news with others. Still, in some circumstances we may hesitate to speak up. Why? We may temporarily give in to fear of man. That happened to Peter. On the night of Jesus’ trial, Peter failed to identify himself as one of Jesus’ disciples and repeatedly denied even knowing him. (Matt. 26:69-75) This same apostle, however, could later say with conviction: “Do not fear what they fear, nor be disturbed.” (1 Pet. 3:14) Peter’s words assure us that we can overcome fear of man. What can help us to overcome fear of man? Peter tells us: “Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts.” (1 Pet. 3:15) This includes meditating on the position and the power of our Lord and King, Christ Jesus. w23.09 27-28 ¶6-8
Examining the Scriptures Daily—2025​

Keep Ready for Jehovah’s Day – Watchtower review.

The June 2023 Watchtower has an article entitled Keep Ready For Jehovah’s Day. The opening paragraph states an oft-repeated error: WHEN the Bible speaks of “Jehovah’s day,” it refers to the time when Jehovah judges his enemies and brings

e-watchman.com

The June 2023 Watchtower has an article entitled Keep Ready For Jehovah’s Day. The opening paragraph states an oft-repeated error:

WHEN the Bible speaks of “Jehovah’s day,” it refers to the time when Jehovah judges his enemies and brings salvation to his people. In the past, Jehovah at times carried out judgments. (Isa. 13:1, 6; Ezek. 13:5; Zeph. 1:8) In our time, “Jehovah’s day” begins with the attack on Babylon the Great and culminates in the battle of Armageddon.

As often as they claim that the tribulation begins with the attack on Babylon—or in this case the variation—that Jehovah’s day begins with the attack, the Watchtower never cites any supporting scripture. The reason they do not should be obvious—there aren’t any. No, it is not an oversight or an anomaly with this particular article. Use your wonderful Bible research tools and you will surely find that as often as the claim is made the Watchtower has never presented any scriptural support. It is always just matter-of-factly passed off.

Ironically, the last subheading cites the apostolic exhortation to make sure of all things. The subsequent paragraph states:

Thus, we need to test what we hear or what we read to determine whether it is genuine. That was important for the Thessalonians, and it will be even more important for us as the great tribulation approaches. Instead of naively accepting what others say, we use our thinking ability to compare what we read or what we hear with what the Bible and Jehovah’s organization say. In doing so, we will not be fooled by any demonic propaganda or trickery.

Amazing, isn’t it? What if Jehovah’s Witnesses were to actually compare what the Bible says with what “Jehovah’s organization” asserts the Bible says? Indeed, I challenge any reader to present biblical support for the Watchtower’s claim that Jehovah’s day begins with the attack on Babylon the Great. Surely there must be some knowledgeable elders and others who have thinking abilities who are capable of such a simple task as proving what they believe and are teaching others is true? All of us are required to make sure of all things. It is not blasphemous to use our minds to make sure that if we accept the Watchtower’s teaching as true that it actually is true.

In truth, it is the Watchtower that is employing demonic trickery and it runs much deeper than Jehovah’s Witnesses can possibly imagine. There is a very simple reason why the Watchtower teaches this falsehood. It is because Jehovah has ordained it to be. The same apostle who wrote to the Thessalonians

regarding Jehovah’s day coming as a thief also wrote a second letter to the same congregation warning them to be on guard so as not to be alarmed by official-sounding proclamations and letters portending to be from the apostles claiming that the parousia has begun and the day of Jehovah is here. Paul went on to reveal that Jehovah would allow for a powerful deluding influence in the form of an operation of Satan to have sway over the congregation until such time as the manifestation of Christ destroyed the source of the delusion, that being the man of lawlessness.

True to the prophet Paul’s writings, the Watchtower has been the sole source heralding the presence of Christ and Jehovah’s day. (Originally, the Watchtower proclaimed the parousia had begun in 1874. And for over half a century, the Watchtower claimed that the day of Jehovah had begun in 1914.)

So, what is the day of Jehovah and how will it begin?

To be sure there is only one day of Jehovah. The passages the article cited (Isa. 13:1, 6; Ezek. 13:5; Zeph. 1:8) use the expression “day of Jehovah,” and there are many other instances in the Hebrew Scriptures besides. But those prophecies have dual fulfillments. What occurred in the past is a pattern for the future. The Governing Body knows this to be true, or at least they used to acknowledge it. For example, the opening paragraph cited Zephaniah 1:8. There are actually seven places in the small prophetic book that refer to the day of Jehovah and the day of Jehovah’s anger and the Watchtower has cited the second chapter many times and has applied it to the future: “Before the decree takes effect, before the day passes by like chaff, before the burning anger of Jehovah comes upon you, before the day of Jehovah’s anger comes upon you, seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth, who observe his righteous decrees. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you will be concealed on the day of Jehovah’s anger.”

Admittedly, it can be difficult to detect the Watchtower’s deceptive trickery. They are very good at it. Consider the Hebrew prophecy of Joel, where the expression “the day of Jehovah” appears in five places. As a result of my holding up the Watchtower’s longstanding interpretation of Joel to withering mockery, a few years ago they grudgingly admitted that the notion that the locusts represent Jehovah’s Witnesses didn’t make any sense. Instead of explaining it in their newfound light, though, they essentially discarded the book of Joel, at least as far as the locust attack having any relevance for the future. By the decree of the prophets of Bethel Jehovah’s locust-like military force that is a precursor to the fear-inspiring day of Jehovah is all history. Even though the book of Joel doesn’t even pretend to have had a fulfillment in ancient times the Governing Body has relegated it to the past. Talk about demonic trickery!

So, again, what is the day of Jehovah, and what will mark its arrival?

The day of Jehovah is the same thing as the day of Jesus Christ—also known as the Lord’s day. Just as Jesus came in the name of Jehovah in the first century in fulfillment of prophecy, so too, the second coming of Jesus Christ will commence Jehovah’s day. Just as Paul wrote concerning the day of Jehovah coming as a thief in the night, distinguished by a unique event—“Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!”—so too, Jesus warned his disciples that he is coming as a thief in the night. There are not two different thief-like comings.

Also, it should be noted that while there are valid reasons for the New World Translation to insert “Jehovah” into “New Testament” passages where the writer, or speaker, was quoting Hebrew passages where YHWH appears, there is, however, a valid reason to question the use of the divine name at 1 Thessalonians 5:2. That is because, in context, which is the previous chapter, Paul was writing about the second coming of Christ. The

apostle even specifically referred to the presence of Christ. So, before the Bible was ever divided into chapters and verses, Paul seamlessly segued into what we now call the fifth chapter. The apostle most probably did not use YHWH, but instead wrote: “The day of the Lord is coming exactly like a thief in the night.”

Regarding his coming as a thief, Jesus said that nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. With what result? The existing order will be overthrown.

Interestingly, Ezekiel wrote of a day of Jehovah, saying: “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Wail, ‘Alas, the day is coming!’ For the day is near, yes, a day of Jehovah is near. It will be a day of clouds, an appointed time of nations.” — Ezek. 30:2-3

More than 50 years ago the Watchtower recognized the judgment against Egypt as a pattern for the future day of Jehovah. Except, Franz erroneously claimed the giant cedar represents all the nations of the world. That simply cannot be a true interpretation since

the 31st chapter of Ezekiel reveals that all the other tree-like nations in Jehovah’s garden stand as inferiors in comparison to the majestic cedar. These matters have been presented to the Watchtower long ago in the book Jehovah Himself Has Become King. In any case, the toppling of the cedar prefigures the sudden crash of the preeminent power on earth at the time of the second coming of Christ. The fall of Egypt prefigures the downfall of America, no doubt as a result of nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom.

It is most ironic that one of the verses cited in the opening paragraph is Ezekiel 13:5, which says: “You will not go to the broken places in the stone walls to rebuild them for the house of Israel, so that Israel may keep standing in the battle in the day of Jehovah.”

The pronoun “you” is in reference to those whom Jehovah derides as the “stupid prophets.” Of them, God goes on to say: “They have seen false visions and foretold a lie, those who are saying, ‘The word of Jehovah is,’ when Jehovah himself has not sent them, and they have waited for their word to come true. Is it not a false vision that you have seen and a lie that you have foretold when you say, ‘The word of Jehovah is,’ when I have not said anything?”’

There is only one institution, one organization, that speaks in the name of Jehovah. Just as the article unashamedly equates the Bible with the writings of the Watchtower, implying that they are one and the same, essentially saying: “the word of Jehovah is”—

the Governing Body and their helpers have identified themselves as “the stupid prophets.” They have waited for more than a century for the word to come true—all in vain. The coming of Christ and the actual parousia will shatter their whitewashed wall.

Whenever it is they will be saying “peace and security” will be evident to everyone. So will the “sudden destruction”—not upon Babylon the Great—but upon the Anglo-American empire, which includes the Dollar-based global financial system. The stupid prophets will thereafter have no share among the sons of light.

Indeed, keep ready for Jehovah’s day!

 

[mts]

The July 2013 Watchtower, pg 4,5 par. 6 shares some scriptures to answer the question: "What will signal the beginning of the great tribulation?". In part, they are Rev 17:16 & a 'larger fulfillment' of Mat 24:15,16. I am not defending that these explanations are correct, but yet, a basis for the GB teaching that the GT begins with an attack on Babylon the Great. I am doubtful that anyone can predict Bible prophecy with accuracy, so, let be what will be and what is to come will come as Jehovah has decreed to occur. Shouldn't we [all] use our thinking ability to compare what we read or what we hear with what the Bible teaches us over any other group, institution, organization or person? Wouldn't that even include those on this forum?

I appreciate that the material shared on this forum as it challenges the teachings of the org and of others, but, if they aren't in harmony with God's word, use discernment and decide, whom should you believe?

 

[SusanB]

The July 2013 Watchtower, pg 4,5 par. 6 shares some scriptures to answer the question: "What will signal the beginning of the great tribulation?". In part, they are Rev 17:16 & a 'larger fulfillment' of Mat 24:15,16. I am not defending that these explanations are correct, but yet, a basis for the GB teaching that the GT begins with an attack on Babylon the Great. I am doubtful that anyone can predict Bible prophecy with accuracy, so, let be what will be and what is to come will come as Jehovah has decreed to occur. Shouldn't we [all] use our thinking ability to compare what we read or what we hear with what the Bible teaches us over any other group, institution, organization or person? Wouldn't that even include those on this forum?

I appreciate that the material shared on this forum as it challenges the teachings of the org and of others, but, if they aren't in harmony with God's word, use discernment and decide, whom should you believe?

I don’t understand your comment. But let’s quote the scriptures you’re mentioning to see if they say that the GT begins with an attack on Babylon the Great.

Revelation 17:16: “And the ten horns that you saw and the wild beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire.”

“a larger fulfillment” of Matthew 24:15-16: “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains.”

So, Revelation 17:16 is something shown by one of the seven angels who have the seven bowls (of anger) which they have apparently already poured out on the earth in chapter 16 and then one of those angels shows John a vision of Babylon the Great and describes the 10 horns as hating this prostitute and they WILL (future tense) make her devasted and naked etc. Nowhere do I read that it says that the Great Tribulation begins with her destruction. It says she will be destroyed but it doesn’t say exactly when, however, the context around it suggests that her destruction is just before Armageddon because Chapters 19 and 20 deal with that topic.

But, you or the Watchtower also seem to see a connection between Revelation 17:16 and Matthew 24:15-16. Are you saying that the “disgusting thing” described in Matthew 24:15-16 is Babylon the Great? The scripture itself points to Daniel to help understand what the disgusting thing is. Daniel 11:31 also uses the phrase “the disgusting thing that causes desolation” and it is put in place by the King of the North to “profane the sanctuary, the fortress and remove the constant feature”. Are you saying that this applies to Babylon? Hasn’t Babylon been in existence long before the King of the North? It seems to me that Babylon is not the same thing as the disgusting thing and I can see no link between them.

Also Daniel 12:11 speaks of when the disgusting thing is put into its place that will begin a time period of 1,290 days. Hasn’t Babylon the Great been in place from ancient times? How would that fit? I’ll quote the 2 Daniel scriptures just to make it easy to read them.

Daniel 11:31: “And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.”

Daniel 12:11: “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days.”

In the first century, the disgusting thing was the Roman Army and so I see no way to link the disgusting thing with Babylon. Maybe I’m misunderstanding something you are saying. And, I would like you to clarify why you would say “Shouldn't we [all] use our thinking ability to compare what we read or what we hear with what the Bible teaches us over any other group, institution, organization or person? Wouldn't that even include those on this forum? I appreciate that the material shared on this forum as it challenges the teachings of the org and of others, but, if they aren't in harmony with God's word, use discernment and decide, whom should you believe?” Is that implying that the members on the forum are not comparing what they read and hear with the Bible? Astonishing if that is what you are saying.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

The July 2013 Watchtower, pg 4,5 par. 6 shares some scriptures to answer the question: "What will signal the beginning of the great tribulation?". In part, they are Rev 17:16 & a 'larger fulfillment' of Mat 24:15,16. I am not defending that these explanations are correct, but yet, a basis for the GB teaching that the GT begins with an attack on Babylon the Great. I am doubtful that anyone can predict Bible prophecy with accuracy, so, let be what will be and what is to come will come as Jehovah has decreed to occur. Shouldn't we [all] use our thinking ability to compare what we read or what we hear with what the Bible teaches us over any other group, institution, organization or person? Wouldn't that even include those on this forum?

I appreciate that the material shared on this forum as it challenges the teachings of the org and of others, but, if they aren't in harmony with God's word, use discernment and decide, whom should you believe?

“I am doubtful that anyone can predict Bible prophecy with accuracy, so, let be what will be and what is to come will come as Jehovah has decreed to occur. ”

I’m intrigued how you can say this but contradict your own thought by suggesting that the truth must be found somewhere - and thus, by inference suggest that this is a dangerous thing in itself and that we should wait upon events as proof? The point of prophesy is to forewarn, and it’s written the way it is because it requires discernment as to its meaning, not necessarily the means by which it is delivered. What are “great signs from the heavens?” Who is the king of the north and of the south? We can only reason upon what we are given to see and understand. So there must be faith involved both in seeing and believing if we are to use discernment as a guide to our thinking.

The point of the forum is to discuss the issues of prophesy; conduct within Jehovah’s arrangement and of course, the outcomes and application of the Holy Spirit. Due to imperfection, none of these attributes will ever be absorbed fully by those prior to the tribulation or for nigh on a thousand years later. Thus the issue is one of faith are knowledge and understanding and to learn to love (understand and to put into action, inculcate within ourselves) these attributes of the Spirit. To become part of them in unity with the spirit.

If one thinks that that it is just about following rules and getting prophesy correct, then that is to miss the point entirely. As has already been said; one can only understand the truth by getting out of religion - including watchtower and thus discussion and argument over scripture is part of that. Harmony comes from within as each one tries and tests their understanding with the scripture against their heart motivation. That is essentially the source of unity within the spirit.

Does it really matter if the tribulation starts or finishes with Babylon if our hearts and conduct are concerned with minutia of dates and times? Is not the evidence we see right now enough to warn us that our heart condition is imperative if we are to have faith enough to light our way through it? If you want to know the state of watchtower, them simply go to the law courts and newspapers, the government agencies, the stock market, the wheelers and dealers of real estate markets, the broken families and sit in upon the meetings of the governing body and see for yourself - I’m sure they will only be too pleased to have you sit with them as they listen to Jehovah through His channel. For the historical evidence and prophetic analysis to your question upon babylon’s comeuppance, read Susan’s reply above! It’s somewhat irrefutable. What’s your reply to it?

 

[Watchman]

I have come to appreciate that the day of Jehovah and the Lord's day are the same thing. The Watchtower doesn't see it that way. They believe the Lord's day began in 1914, which pretty much renders it into a non-event, while Jehovah's day is in the future. Setting that discrepancy aside, does the day of Jehovah begin when Babylon the Great is destroyed?

Consider what the apostle wrote: "Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat!"

Does the language used by the apostle sound like the day of Jehovah will only affect false religion? "The heavens will be destroyed in flames"? What heavens? Well, according to the Watchtower, the "heavens" can symbolize the governments of the world that rule over mankind. This is the correct interpretation. So, when will the governments be destroyed in flames? According to the book of Revelation, this will occur as a result of war, famine and pestilence. The world's governments will crash and cease to function. Here is what is written in the book of the Apocalypse: "And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place."

The Watchtower claims that the sixth seal was opened shortly after the first five. And although Jehovah's Witnesses are required to believe that the horsemen of the Apocalypse were unleashed in succession beginning in 1914, the events betokened by the opening of the sixth seal still have not transpired even after a century since the seal is believed to have been unsealed. The reason the Watchtower teaches such a nonsensical interpretation is that the operation of Satan has enshrined 1914 as the beginning of the day of the Lord. They also say that Jehovah became king in 1914.

Appropriately, 1914 will be the first thing to go up in smoke when the day of Jehovah begins and the governmental heavens go down in flames.

 

[MickHewitt]

The reason the Watchtower teaches such a nonsensical interpretation is that the operation of Satan has enshrined 1914 as the beginning of the day of the Lord. They also say that Jehovah became king in 1914.

Thanks for exposing their nakedness with such acceptable irreversible existential scriptural reasoning.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

I have come to appreciate that the day of Jehovah and the Lord's day are the same thing. The Watchtower doesn't see it that way. They believe the Lord's day began in 1914, which pretty much renders it into a non-event, while Jehovah's day is in the future. Setting that discrepancy aside, does the day of Jehovah begin when Babylon the Great is destroyed?

Consider what the apostle wrote: "Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat!"

Does the language used by the apostle sound like the day of Jehovah will only affect false religion? "The heavens will be destroyed in flames"? What heavens? Well, according to the Watchtower, the "heavens" can symbolize the governments of the world that rule over mankind. This is the correct interpretation. So, when will the governments be destroyed in flames? According to the book of Revelation, this will occur as a result of war, famine and pestilence. The world's governments will crash and cease to function. Here is what is written in the book of the Apocalypse: "And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place."

The Watchtower claims that the sixth seal was opened shortly after the first five. And although Jehovah's Witnesses are required to believe that the horsemen of the Apocalypse were unleashed in succession beginning in 1914, the events betokened by the opening of the sixth seal still have not transpired even after a century since the seal is believed to have been unsealed. The reason the Watchtower teaches such a nonsensical interpretation is that the operation of Satan has enshrined 1914 as the beginning of the day of the Lord. They also say that Jehovah became king in 1914.

Appropriately, 1914 will be the first thing to go up in smoke when the day of Jehovah begins and the governmental heavens go down in flames.

I think that scripture you quote is key: “consider what sort of people you aught to be…”. There seems little point in understanding the where and when of prophesy if one is short on understanding what our hearts should be reflecting in terms of the spirit. .

 

[mts]

@SusanB & @BARNABY THE DOG... I am not sure if/how/why I should respond, but here are some quick thoughts. @SusanB you said "I don’t understand your comment." However, you went on the provide additional thoughts & scriptural comments. It wasn't my intention to create debate. Anyway, just for context, the 10 horns, as taught by the GB, represents all political powers and the prostitute, Babylon the Great (or all false religions); nonetheless, the scripture does not specifically say anything about the GT (as you point out) but yet the destruction of this prostitute. Nonetheless, the GB believes this starts the GT. Whether it will/does is yet to be. Regarding a 3rd World War, does the bible specifically say there will be a 3rd WW? I am not saying their couldn't be, but do we know with absolute certainty it will happen?

@BARNABY THE DOG. thanks for your intellectually written response. You say, "I’m intrigued how you can say this but contradict your own thought by suggesting that the truth must be found somewhere - and thus, by inference suggest that this is a dangerous thing in itself and that we should wait upon events as proof?" Honestly, I am not sure how you came to this determination and don't really follow what you mean. I do agree with your statement: "So there must be faith involved both in seeing and believing if we are to use discernment as a guide to our thinking" Yes, faith, discernment and the understanding of signs guide our understanding of prophecy which forewarn us to prepare for the fulfillment; nonetheless, can any imperfect man truly predict/prophecize how/when it will be fulfilled?

I want to end with a general disagreement. Although there are many, repeat, many JWs that blindly believe the GB and are, beyond help, statements like "Witnesses are required to believe", are simply not true. Just because they are in the org, doesn't mean they/we all believe everything that is taught us. Silence is not acceptance. Also, in answer to this question: "Surely there must be some knowledgeable elders and others who have thinking abilities who are capable of such a simple task as proving what they believe and are teaching others is true?" Yes, there are, and probably more than you think. I've met several myself after almost believing there weren't any. Lastly, just because someone else has a different understanding, teaching or doctrine and is convinced theirs is true, doesn't mean others will or have to believe it. At the same time, this doesn't mean they aren't open-minded to analyze the validity of those other teachings. In general, many believe most/all JWs are not open-minded, but, again, simply not the case.

 

[SusanB]

@SusanB & @BARNABY THE DOG... I am not sure if/how/why I should respond, but here are some quick thoughts. @SusanB you said "I don’t understand your comment." However, you went on the provide additional thoughts & scriptural comments. It wasn't my intention to create debate. Anyway, just for context, the 10 horns, as taught by the GB, represents all political powers and the prostitute, Babylon the Great (or all false religions); nonetheless, the scripture does not specifically say anything about the GT (as you point out) but yet the destruction of this prostitute. Nonetheless, the GB believes this starts the GT. Whether it will/does is yet to be. Regarding a 3rd World War, does the bible specifically say there will be a 3rd WW? I am not saying their couldn't be, but do we know with absolute certainty it will happen?

@BARNABY THE DOG. thanks for your intellectually written response. You say, "I’m intrigued how you can say this but contradict your own thought by suggesting that the truth must be found somewhere - and thus, by inference suggest that this is a dangerous thing in itself and that we should wait upon events as proof?" Honestly, I am not sure how you came to this determination and don't really follow what you mean. I do agree with your statement: "So there must be faith involved both in seeing and believing if we are to use discernment as a guide to our thinking" Yes, faith, discernment and the understanding of signs guide our understanding of prophecy which forewarn us to prepare for the fulfillment; nonetheless, can any imperfect man truly predict/prophecize how/when it will be fulfilled?

I want to end with a general disagreement. Although there are many, repeat, many JWs that blindly believe the GB and are, beyond help, statements like "Witnesses are required to believe", are simply not true. Just because they are in the org, doesn't mean they/we all believe everything that is taught us. Silence is not acceptance. Also, in answer to this question: "Surely there must be some knowledgeable elders and others who have thinking abilities who are capable of such a simple task as proving what they believe and are teaching others is true?" Yes, there are, and probably more than you think. I've met several myself after almost believing there weren't any. Lastly, just because someone else has a different understanding, teaching or doctrine and is convinced theirs is true, doesn't mean others will or have to believe it. At the same time, this doesn't mean they aren't open-minded to analyze the validity of those other teachings. In general, many believe most/all JWs are not open-minded, but, again, simply not the case.

Hi mts, Thank you for responding. I did say that I do not understand your comment and my thoughts and scriptural comments were made to point out why I did not understand your statement and asking for more clarification. I agree that it is not my intent to debate either, but this is a forum and your posts are made to communicate a message with readers who then are able to make their own comments. I could have just ignored your comment and gone on with life never being sure that I was understanding you, but I thought it worthwhile to quote the scriptures that you were referring to in your initial post with the question of exactly how you were viewing those scriptures.

So, I think we can agree on one of the points regarding the scriptures you referenced in that they do state that Babylon will be destroyed but those scriptures do not state when it will occur nor do they indicate that the destruction will be the start of the GT. I hope we can agree on this point. At least that is how I am now understanding your 2nd comment.

Regarding the bible stating anything about a 3rd world war or a 2nd world war or even a 1st world war is something that I think we can both agree the scriptures don’t cover that specifically, however, in my mind it is evident that world wars 1 and 2, as consequential as they may seem, are not the signs Jesus told his followers would signal the nearness of his return. So, that means that we can expect the true fulfillment of Matthew 24:3-8: “While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.”

I cannot imagine that Jesus would have given his followers a sign of his presence and of the conclusion that would be starting over 100 years before his presence and the conclusion. Because as Robert King points out, everyone who saw World War 1 is now dead and would not be seeing the rest of the sign so WW1 and WW2 could not have been included in what Jesus was describing. So, what will we call a new war that will actually signal his presence? His description, of what to look for, must be things that are a precursor to his coming and something that those who are actually alive during his presence and the conclusion of the system would have literally seen happen and not have read about in a history book.

I respect most people’s viewpoints (sorry I cannot say I respect all viewpoints because I don’t) but I don’t worry about people having different viewpoints because I’m confident that when Jesus does come and seals the Chosen Ones, they will make everything crystal clear. I also have to end with a general disagreement. If an active brother or sister in the congregation promotes or teaches something that is not in harmony with the dictates of the GB, even though the GB is obviously in error on substantial issues like 1914, they will be, at the very least, soft shunned (marked) and they will probably not be allowed to give answers during the meeting. They just wouldn’t call on them. They also run the risk of being removed. So, in that sense I do think Brother King is correct in saying “Witnesses are required to believe”. It is Jehovah himself who calls them dictators of Sodom at Isaiah 1:10. The fact that they recently approved beards for brothers and pants for sisters shows the level of control they exert over the brothers and sisters. The brothers and sisters were so happy with the permission they received from the GB, you would have thought it came from Jehovah himself. But it didn’t. I know that because Jehovah’s principles do not change, they are timeless and so all of the rules and regulations that in hindsight seem to me to be so ridiculous, are just commands of men being taught as doctrine in imitation of the Pharisees.

Isaiah 1:10: “Hear the word of Jehovah, you dictators of Sodom. Pay attention to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah.”

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

@BARNABY THE DOG. You say, "I’m intrigued how you can say this but contradict your own thought by suggesting that the truth must be found somewhere - and thus, by inference suggest that this is a dangerous thing in itself and that we should wait upon events as proof?" Honestly, I am not sure how you came to this determination and don't really follow what you mean. I do agree with your statement: "So there must be faith involved both in seeing and believing if we are to use discernment as a guide to our thinking" Yes, faith, discernment and the understanding of signs guide our understanding of prophecy which forewarn us to prepare for the fulfillment; nonetheless, can any imperfect man truly predict/prophecize how/when it will be fulfilled?

I think most here are aware that I am no Bible scholar - my faith is quite simple to say the least. I have very little insight into prophecy and less still into various characters mentioned in the scripture. I was aware of a god as a very young boy and have been attracted to the creator for my entire life. What I learnt from watchtower simply confirmed my boyhood belief, but beyond that, watchtower could teach me nothing and succeeded very amicably in portraying their ignorance into the depth of spirituality that always was and remains, the bedrock of faith that gives meaning to the scripture. Not the other way around. They are spiritually castrated since the 1914 fantasy. Their teachings are sterile of spiritual meaning and paradoxically give birth only to obedience to man. Few see through it, but as you rightly point out, some do - it leaves me breathless that they take no note of their own spiritual need and seek Jehovah whilst He still may be found and prefer to remain with watchtower or leave the race altogether.

As for me, I cannot see the reasoning - or wonderment might be a better word, - as to the difference “…what will signal the beginning of the great tribulation” may make to us. That is not to be gratuitously rude, it’s a perfectly good question to ask, but personally, I cannot see the need to tie down these details and agree upon them as a test of of our “understanding”. Jehovah gives us these insights so that we can look out for them and prepare, in the same way perhaps as my mother always told me to look both ways before crossing the road. It’s pretty useless advice unless you know first, the results of what such a collision might mean and why that should matter and where our responsibility lies to avoid such.

Thus these warnings are little more than a kindness to those living at the time. Were we living in the 1700s and read these same warnings with understanding, we would know, would we not, that they are way in the future. These same warnings then would simply carry the same sentiments as “let us make merry for tomorrow we die” in the minds of many who do not understand the gravity of faith in love of the creator as the priority for our salvation. It’s not about reward. These then are privileged times for us in that all the signs are emerging in our day, but unless we have the faith, insight, understanding, wisdom and love of the attributes of Jehovah inculcated within our hearts, of what use are these signs to us? It is only when we have these qualities in practice within our daily lives: to understand their ultimate importance to our continuance, to live and practice them with understanding and in genuine love of them, that it will secure our hopes for continuance under them. Head knowledge of dates times and signs will not give us that, because whatever they may warn us against, they come at night like a thief when we ourselves are “not expecting” them. Our “readiness” is of the heart - our “test” is also of the heart, no matter what our loss or suffering may be or in how it may come about.

It is worth bearing in mind that salutary remark made by a member of the gb who said, speaking of the tribulation, “…stick with us (the gb) you will be alright.” This effectively takes away the responsibility to self that is required of us and indeed, leaves the flock look to the times, and which the gb dictate, (1914 etc etc) rather than the faithfulness of the heart, to love and understanding of Jehovah, a facet the gb also like to control through their self appointed “channel”; an illusion if ever there was one.

 

[Ana]

The July 2013 Watchtower, pg 4,5 par. 6 shares some scriptures to answer the question: "What will signal the beginning of the great tribulation?". In part, they are Rev 17:16 & a 'larger fulfillment' of Mat 24:15,16. I am not defending that these explanations are correct, but yet, a basis for the GB teaching that the GT begins with an attack on Babylon the Great. I am doubtful that anyone can predict Bible prophecy with accuracy, so, let be what will be and what is to come will come as Jehovah has decreed to occur. Shouldn't we [all] use our thinking ability to compare what we read or what we hear with what the Bible teaches us over any other group, institution, organization or person? Wouldn't that even include those on this forum?

I appreciate that the material shared on this forum as it challenges the teachings of the org and of others, but, if they aren't in harmony with God's word, use discernment and decide, whom should you believe?

Los miembros habituales de este foro solemos usar la Biblia para comprobar las cosas. Es lo que llevamos haciendo desde que se creó. No nos hacemos responsables de los contribuyentes que se salen del consejo bíblico. A veces podemos pensar que las cosas pueden avanzar de una forma u otra. Lo compartimos y lo consideramos juntos. Muchas de las cosas las dejamos para el tiempo futuro, cuando se cumplan. Si no quieres generar debate, que es lo que quieres generar con esta pregunta? Cito tus palabras:
No deberíamos todos usar nuestra capacidad de razonamiento para comparar lo que leemos o escuchamos con lo que la Biblia nos enseña sobre cualquier otro grupo, institución, organización o persona? ¿Acaso eso no incluye a los miembros de este foro?

 

[Watchman]

@SusanB & @BARNABY THE DOG... Nonetheless, the GB believes this starts the GT. Whether it will/does is yet to be. Regarding a 3rd World War, does the bible specifically say there will be a 3rd WW? I am not saying their couldn't be, but do we know with absolute certainty it will happen?

Just to add to what Susan posted, Jesus said, "When you see all these things, know he is near at the doors." It is not possible for anyone living now to personally see "all these things" if the things Jesus foretold began in 1914.

Besides, all the nations are now preparing for war. Germany, France, England, and some of those little Baltic states have collectively lost their minds—their leaders, anyway. They are building up to go to war directly with Russia. They seem to be oblivious to the fact that Russia could destroy them all in a few minutes.

Germany is going to ship their Tarus cruise missiles to Ukraine, but those devices can only be launched by the Germans. Russia has forthrightly responded by warning Germany that the Russian response will not target Ukraine, but Germany.

Meanwhile, Israel is determined to dupe Trump into attacking Iran, which would also trigger WW3.

China is going through military maneuvers to invade Taiwan in the face of constant US provocations.

So, it is not unrealistic to expect to see nations rising against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms very soon. Given the fact that all of the nations involved possess nuclear weapons, including Britain, France, Russia, China, Israel, and the US, and even Iran has enough fissible material to construct a few nuclear devices very quickly, it is understandable why it will be necessary for God to cut the tribulation short. Without divine intervention, there will be no survivors of the conflict, which is already in its early stages.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Los miembros habituales de este foro solemos usar la Biblia para comprobar las cosas. Es lo que llevamos haciendo desde que se creó. No nos hacemos responsables de los contribuyentes que se salen del consejo bíblico. A veces podemos pensar que las cosas pueden avanzar de una forma u otra. Lo compartimos y lo consideramos juntos. Muchas de las cosas las dejamos para el tiempo futuro, cuando se cumplan. Si no quieres generar debate, que es lo que quieres generar con esta pregunta? Cito tus palabras:
No deberíamos todos usar nuestra capacidad de razonamiento para comparar lo que leemos o escuchamos con lo que la Biblia nos enseña sobre cualquier otro grupo, institución, organización o persona? ¿Acaso eso no incluye a los miembros de este foro?

It is a trait of the watchtower to focus upon behaviours rather than spirituality. By behaviours I am referring to their demands to conform in such as in dress, beards, preaching, repeating watchtower paragraphs, donating, no education beyond school etc. They offer (in my opinion), little insight into the spiritual understanding that is required of all of us. It’s not much different in going to church to listen to a set service. The only discussion they allow is that which is acceptable to the gb. Hence “maturity” is measured in obedience to the gb, and not in spiritual understanding. Apparently, according to the Bible, those seeking understanding need only ask Jehovah for it sincerely and to pursue it.

 

[MyGodisJehovah30]

Regarding a 3rd World War, does the bible specifically say there will be a 3rd WW? I am not saying their couldn't be, but do we know with absolute certainty it will happen?

I believe so, yes.

This becomes quite evident, since Revelation 6:3–8 describes the terrifying vision of "four horsemen," culminating in the fourth rider, Death, who is then granted authority over a fourth part of the Earth to kill “with sword(war), with famine, with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth(perhaps, national governments).”

Now, God's people have traditionally applied the "four horsemen" to the events that occurred in 1914 or in the earlier 1900's, including World War I, the Spanish flu, World War II and perhaps even the Great Depression. However, whether we use the population of 1914(1.8B) or 2025(8.1B), the combined toll of those global calamities STILL does not account for "a fourth part" of the Earth’s population. Moreover, these particular events are also spreaded out over decades, whereas the prophecy in Revelation presents the seals as being opened in rapid succession, which appears to be a part of a single prophetic sequence.

Therefore, the prophecy in Revelation 6:3-8 must, then, point to an impending global cataclysm, involving a nuclear war(tactical nukes), famine, pestilence and mass death on a global-scale. Besides, the prophecy of the four horsemen will also initiate and will occur during the Great Tribulation which even Jehovah's people know, hasn't yet occurred.

So yes, we can be certain that a nuclear war(WWIII) will take place.

statements like "Witnesses are required to believe", are simply not true. Just because they are in the org, doesn't mean they/we all believe everything that is taught us. Silence is not acceptance.

Unfortunately, it is true to an extent.

For example, in the 1986 April 1 Watchtower, in the section:

“Questions from Readers.”

The Watchtower outlines eight "unique" teachings that are considered exclusive to God's people. According to the Society, acceptance of all eight are required in order to maintain "approved association" with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Undoubtedly, 6 out of these 8 teachings are fully supported by scripture and should be widely accepted. However, the remaining two teachings, which also require acceptance for association, are centered around the theme of "1914" and the eschatology of Jehovah's Witnesses.


These two teachings include:

-- The appointment of the "faithful and discreet slave(the Governing Body)" in 1919, which is directly tied to the central theme of 1914.

-- The belief that "1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of God's Kingdom in the heavens, as well as the beginning of Christ's foretold presence."

Nonetheless, Jehovah and Michael(Christ) will resolve these issues and will refine their people, Jehovah's Witnesses, through proper discipline and enlightenment.

That's all that truly matters.

 

[Ana]

It is a trait of the watchtower to focus upon behaviours rather than spirituality. By behaviours I am referring to their demands to conform in such as in dress, beards, preaching, repeating watchtower paragraphs, donating, no education beyond school etc. They offer (in my opinion), little insight into the spiritual understanding that is required of all of us. It’s not much different in going to church to listen to a set service. The only discussion they allow is that which is acceptable to the gb. Hence “maturity” is measured in obedience to the gb, and not in spiritual understanding. Apparently, according to the Bible, those seeking understanding need only ask Jehovah for it sincerely and to pursue it.

La cabra tira al monte, querido BARNABY.

 

[mts]

Hi @SusanB and @BARNABY THE DOG. et al. Appreciate the follow up responses. One thing that is difficult is to relay tone and reading undertones in writing. Initially, I felt the first responses were a bit emotionally charged, but the follow ups were quite thought-provoking. The main reason I was interested in joining this forum wasn't to discuss doctrine, beliefs, prophecies, etc. but to find support from others who did not take the jab and did not agree in the GB's promotion and inaccurate application (my opinion) of scripture to get the jab(s).

@MyGodisJehovah30 - The blanket statement by the GB and/or their writers in the 1986 watchtower lumps all JWs together into submitting to those 8 unique teachings. At a group level all JWs by proxy should be in agreement or in acceptance, but at an individual level...? Some are willing to refuse they believe in some/all of the teachings even if it costs removal from the org. That was the stance of many during the pandemic. If the GB had required the jab to remain an active JW, well, then, good-bye. I even knew a CO & wife that refused the jab and could not remain a member of The Order. Even showed me the letter they rec'd stating that they had 3 days to decide on what to do. I feel there will come a time where each of us will have a test of faith, like during the pandemic, and will have to decide what/who(m) do we serve and how to proceed.

I am not sure what changes for me if there is a WW III other than likely death. I surely don't have an underground bunker to ride-it-out until Jah cuts the tribulation short & Jesus intervenes. Just doing my best to prepare myself & family for whatever the GT brings... if it does occur in my lifetime.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Hi @SusanB and @BARNABY THE DOG. et al. Appreciate the follow up responses. One thing that is difficult is to relay tone and reading undertones in writing. Initially, I felt the first responses were a bit emotionally charged, but the follow ups were quite thought-provoking. The main reason I was interested in joining this forum wasn't to discuss doctrine, beliefs, prophecies, etc. but to find support from others who did not take the jab and did not agree in the GB's promotion and inaccurate application (my opinion) of scripture to get the jab(s).

@MyGodisJehovah30 - The blanket statement by the GB and/or their writers in the 1986 watchtower lumps all JWs together into submitting to those 8 unique teachings. At a group level all JWs by proxy should be in agreement or in acceptance, but at an individual level...? Some are willing to refuse they believe in some/all of the teachings even if it costs removal from the org. That was the stance of many during the pandemic. If the GB had required the jab to remain an active JW, well, then, good-bye. I even knew a CO & wife that refused the jab and could not remain a member of The Order. Even showed me the letter they rec'd stating that they had 3 days to decide on what to do. I feel there will come a time where each of us will have a test of faith, like during the pandemic, and will have to decide what/who(m) do we serve and how to proceed.

I am not sure what changes for me if there is a WW III other than likely death. I surely don't have an underground bunker to ride-it-out until Jah cuts the tribulation short & Jesus intervenes. Just doing my best to prepare myself & family for whatever the GT brings... if it does occur in my lifetime.

Interesting point of view mts! I view emotional argument of the bible as a deficit to learning and that emotive claptrap simply blocks the way to understanding its meaning. I accepted the vaccine - twice. I had faith in my doctor not to poison me and as she has always been professionally diligent in her care of my health I had no reason to disbelieve her advice. Had the information about the vaccine been available to me as it was to so many in America I certainly would have had my doubts and probably refused it, as I did on many occasions thereafter. It is worth bearing in mind - in this country at least (England) that doctors were under extreme pressure to conform. When I discovered the truth about vaccine and asked my doctor about it, her reply was: “The government says that it’s safe to use.”. Well, to anyone with a grain of insight, that reply told me everything I needed to know. My doctor must have had real battles with her conscience, though I can forgive that as a similar test in other paths is coming our way too, is it not?
However, it made absolutely no difference to me in respect of the bible truths discussed here, and so I cannot understand why anyone would link not taking the vaccine as a scriptural asset in determining any motives from the GB. It has nothing to do with anyone else what medical care we submit to unless it crosses biblical demands, as with blood. And the blood issue requires deep understanding of the standards Jehovah has along with his jealousies regarding His Being, if we are to have the faith to refuse it. If the watchtower’s rigmarole in redefining blood into its constituent parts is anything to go by then that should be warning enough that their role is suspect - long before it came to the DNA issues of the vaccine.

We certainly will be tested in a way applicable to our faith and understanding of the spiritual issues demanded of us. But it will not be “beyond our ability to endure” such a test. But surely the test is upon faith and allegiance, born of our personal understanding and agreement given in not just understanding, but of loving the principles of Jehovah. To do that, we must understand the thematic and holistic issues of love that bind in their entirety, the attributes of Jehovah.

It is already self evident that watchtower oversees a false representation of Jehovah and they make no apology for it either. The vaccine, for all its tragedy upon those that suffered its proliferation throughout watchtower and the world, is not the issue of watchtowers existence, but a facet of it. Neither is this vaccine the culmination of their adultery to the truth. More is to come. The watchtower requires an holistic overview by us and the outcome for the individual is not based upon one single event, but a spiritual appraisal of all that watchtower represents. To understand that, one needs to hold it up to the mirror of understanding given us through the Bible and our own measure of faith that we draw from it. That is why people who love those principles set out in the Bible and whose conscience and understanding are sharpened, leave the watchtower according to their conscience. There is a trigger therein for all of us, according to our understanding and rarely just one single event. It’s referred to as the “heart condition”, being refined according to faith, that motivates the soul.

Did not the issues of child abuse alert many, let alone the vaccine? What about 1914? Many woke up then and left. These signals have been going on throughout alerting the brethren to the issues within watchtower. Then there was the watchtower allegiance to the UN. It’s our pursuit of truth and faith that opens our eyes to these events. If our heart is not right, then we are asleep to it all - and there the answer becomes clear and we must act and get out.

 

[Ana]

Hi @SusanB and @BARNABY THE DOG. et al. Appreciate the follow up responses. One thing that is difficult is to relay tone and reading undertones in writing. Initially, I felt the first responses were a bit emotionally charged, but the follow ups were quite thought-provoking. The main reason I was interested in joining this forum wasn't to discuss doctrine, beliefs, prophecies, etc. but to find support from others who did not take the jab and did not agree in the GB's promotion and inaccurate application (my opinion) of scripture to get the jab(s).

@MyGodisJehovah30 - The blanket statement by the GB and/or their writers in the 1986 watchtower lumps all JWs together into submitting to those 8 unique teachings. At a group level all JWs by proxy should be in agreement or in acceptance, but at an individual level...? Some are willing to refuse they believe in some/all of the teachings even if it costs removal from the org. That was the stance of many during the pandemic. If the GB had required the jab to remain an active JW, well, then, good-bye. I even knew a CO & wife that refused the jab and could not remain a member of The Order. Even showed me the letter they rec'd stating that they had 3 days to decide on what to do. I feel there will come a time where each of us will have a test of faith, like during the pandemic, and will have to decide what/who(m) do we serve and how to proceed.

I am not sure what changes for me if there is a WW III other than likely death. I surely don't have an underground bunker to ride-it-out until Jah cuts the tribulation short & Jesus intervenes. Just doing my best to prepare myself & family for whatever the GT brings... if it does occur in my lifetime.

Este comentario me ha hecho pensar porque me uní a este foro. Lo hice movida por el alimento espiritual que recibí cuando conocí a Robert. Aseguré mi fé y pude darle vida de nuevo. Además el fue capaz con la Biblia de exponer un problema institucional grave que nos afectaba a muchos. Cómo podía quedarse la gente sentada en un salón del reino sabiendo lo que sucedía con el abuso sexual? Ahí incluyo a los que escucharon de el, como por ejemplo, todos los ancianos, pues se les informaba sobre los pasos a seguir, como los que lo vivían en segunda persona o los que ni se molestaban en preguntar qué hacer si a su hijo le sucedía algo así. Todo tenía la misma respuesta, la obediencia al Cuerpo Gobernante, que tenía el poder de gobernar antes de tiempo, porque según ellos, Cristo ya estaba reinando y les daba ese poder. Nunca idolatré a hombres y mucho menos les seguí. Luego llegó la pandemia y parece que como afectaba individualmente la gente empezó a despertar de su idolatría solapada. Vi que cuando la piedra de tropiezo entra en tu zapato, es más fácil detener el paso y ver si te la puedes quitar. Es algo muy humano. Cada uno tenemos un momento para despertar de la esclavitud espiritual y todos somos esclavos del pecado hasta que Jesús reine. Conocí en este foro a personas que habían sentido el error de la WT como yo. Pude sentir ese sentimiento de confratenizar con los que dejan de servir a hombres y adquieren una fe libre y única entre Jehová y el individuo a través de Jesús. Lo considero un ejercicio muy positivo enfocado al futuro. No confiar en nadie más que en Jehová y soltar la mano de la mama organización antes de su corrección para mi da ventaja. Ya tendremos suficiente carga con gestionar la gran tribulación como para vivir el tortazo espiritual que se vivirá cuando la WT pierda el control. Debatir y conversar sobre asusto bíblicos es lo que me dio la posibilidad de ser libre. Conocer y adquirir cariño de los participantes con nombres raros en ocasiones difíciles, un pequeño empujón para seguir. Os quiero mucho, hacia tiempo uquque no os lo decía. Vivisteis al debatir algunos temas a un lugar muy oscuro en el que sólo entraba yo. Las palabras pueden iluminar el bosque oscuro. Gracias por eso! A Robert: no te canses! Adelante! Sigue adelante!! Me torcí el tobillo, el reposo me colocó en mi estado natural de más ternura y menos datos.

 

[Watchful]

I think most here are aware that I am no Bible scholar - my faith is quite simple to say the least. I have very little insight into prophecy and less still into various characters mentioned in the scripture. I was aware of a god as a very young boy and have been attracted to the creator for my entire life. What I learnt from watchtower simply confirmed my boyhood belief, but beyond that, watchtower could teach me nothing and succeeded very amicably in portraying their ignorance into the depth of spirituality that always was and remains, the bedrock of faith that gives meaning to the scripture. Not the other way around. They are spiritually castrated since the 1914 fantasy. Their teachings are sterile of spiritual meaning and paradoxically give birth only to obedience to man. Few see through it, but as you rightly point out, some do - it leaves me breathless that they take no note of their own spiritual need and seek Jehovah whilst He still may be found and prefer to remain with watchtower or leave the race altogether.

As for me, I cannot see the reasoning - or wonderment might be a better word, - as to the difference “…what will signal the beginning of the great tribulation” may make to us. That is not to be gratuitously rude, it’s a perfectly good question to ask, but personally, I cannot see the need to tie down these details and agree upon them as a test of of our “understanding”. Jehovah gives us these insights so that we can look out for them and prepare, in the same way perhaps as my mother always told me to look both ways before crossing the road. It’s pretty useless advice unless you know first, the results of what such a collision might mean and why that should matter and where our responsibility lies to avoid such.

Thus these warnings are little more than a kindness to those living at the time. Were we living in the 1700s and read these same warnings with understanding, we would know, would we not, that they are way in the future. These same warnings then would simply carry the same sentiments as “let us make merry for tomorrow we die” in the minds of many who do not understand the gravity of faith in love of the creator as the priority for our salvation. It’s not about reward. These then are privileged times for us in that all the signs are emerging in our day, but unless we have the faith, insight, understanding, wisdom and love of the attributes of Jehovah inculcated within our hearts, of what use are these signs to us? It is only when we have these qualities in practice within our daily lives: to understand their ultimate importance to our continuance, to live and practice them with understanding and in genuine love of them, that it will secure our hopes for continuance under them. Head knowledge of dates times and signs will not give us that, because whatever they may warn us against, they come at night like a thief when we ourselves are “not expecting” them. Our “readiness” is of the heart - our “test” is also of the heart, no matter what our loss or suffering may be or in how it may come about.

It is worth bearing in mind that salutary remark made by a member of the gb who said, speaking of the tribulation, “…stick with us (the gb) you will be alright.” This effectively takes away the responsibility to self that is required of us and indeed, leaves the flock look to the times, and which the gb dictate, (1914 etc etc) rather than the faithfulness of the heart, to love and understanding of Jehovah, a facet the gb also like to control through their self appointed “channel”; an illusion if ever there was one.

Ya know Barns, I confess. I usually dont read your post because like my grandfather youre too long winded and youre just to dang smart. But this post right here sir is just so poetically beautiful and easy to grasp. And even If some parts I didnt understand in word...I understood in spirit the point of what you were getting across. You truly are a gem. A long winded one....but beautiful nonetheless.

 

[SusanB]

Hi @SusanB and @BARNABY THE DOG. et al. Appreciate the follow up responses. One thing that is difficult is to relay tone and reading undertones in writing. Initially, I felt the first responses were a bit emotionally charged, but the follow ups were quite thought-provoking. The main reason I was interested in joining this forum wasn't to discuss doctrine, beliefs, prophecies, etc. but to find support from others who did not take the jab and did not agree in the GB's promotion and inaccurate application (my opinion) of scripture to get the jab(s).

@MyGodisJehovah30 - The blanket statement by the GB and/or their writers in the 1986 watchtower lumps all JWs together into submitting to those 8 unique teachings. At a group level all JWs by proxy should be in agreement or in acceptance, but at an individual level...? Some are willing to refuse they believe in some/all of the teachings even if it costs removal from the org. That was the stance of many during the pandemic. If the GB had required the jab to remain an active JW, well, then, good-bye. I even knew a CO & wife that refused the jab and could not remain a member of The Order. Even showed me the letter they rec'd stating that they had 3 days to decide on what to do. I feel there will come a time where each of us will have a test of faith, like during the pandemic, and will have to decide what/who(m) do we serve and how to proceed.

I am not sure what changes for me if there is a WW III other than likely death. I surely don't have an underground bunker to ride-it-out until Jah cuts the tribulation short & Jesus intervenes. Just doing my best to prepare myself & family for whatever the GT brings... if it does occur in my lifetime.

I am happy for you that you recognized that the vaccine should not have been promoted. That is a good sign that you have built true faith in Jehovah and that you have taken his principles to heart. It is just so sad that so many, in fact the majority, of brothers and sisters have only given lip service to applying the scriptures. I wish it wasn’t true about them and I would not have believed it pre-COVID.

 

[BrooksB]

Ya know Barns, I confess. I usually dont read your post because like my grandfather youre too long winded and youre just to dang smart. But this post right here sir is just so poetically beautiful and easy to grasp. And even If some parts I didnt understand in word...I understood in spirit the point of what you were getting across. You truly are a gem. A long winded one....but beautiful nonetheless.

I save into a special folder the gems I read on this forum. I have saved a ton! The VAST MAJORITY of those saved gems come from our beloved Doggy. So, skipping over and not reading his every word comes at a potentially great loss. But I must admit, when I am doing a lite perusal of the daily injections in "What's New" and I come upon a standard 10 paragraph essay by the Barn, I do indeed choose in the moment to put off reading it for another moment, day, week, month or whenever the next possible available time slot I can allot for said reading (and absorption), knowing full well by making that decision to delay, I am stunting my personal growth.

 

[SusanB]

Interesting point of view mts! I view emotional argument of the bible as a deficit to learning and that emotive claptrap simply blocks the way to understanding its meaning. I accepted the vaccine - twice. I had faith in my doctor not to poison me and as she has always been professionally diligent in her care of my health I had no reason to disbelieve her advice. Had the information about the vaccine been available to me as it was to so many in America I certainly would have had my doubts and probably refused it, as I did on many occasions thereafter. It is worth bearing in mind - in this country at least (England) that doctors were under extreme pressure to conform. When I discovered the truth about vaccine and asked my doctor about it, her reply was: “The government says that it’s safe to use.”. Well, to anyone with a grain of insight, that reply told me everything I needed to know. My doctor must have had real battles with her conscience, though I can forgive that as a similar test in other paths is coming our way too, is it not?
However, it made absolutely no difference to me in respect of the bible truths discussed here, and so I cannot understand why anyone would link not taking the vaccine as a scriptural asset in determining any motives from the GB. It has nothing to do with anyone else what medical care we submit to unless it crosses biblical demands, as with blood. And the blood issue requires deep understanding of the standards Jehovah has along with his jealousies regarding His Being, if we are to have the faith to refuse it. If the watchtower’s rigmarole in redefining blood into its constituent parts is anything to go by then that should be warning enough that their role is suspect - long before it came to the DNA issues of the vaccine.

We certainly will be tested in a way applicable to our faith and understanding of the spiritual issues demanded of us. But it will not be “beyond our ability to endure” such a test. But surely the test is upon faith and allegiance, born of our personal understanding and agreement given in not just understanding, but of loving the principles of Jehovah. To do that, we must understand the thematic and holistic issues of love that bind in their entirety, the attributes of Jehovah.

It is already self evident that watchtower oversees a false representation of Jehovah and they make no apology for it either. The vaccine, for all its tragedy upon those that suffered its proliferation throughout watchtower and the world, is not the issue of watchtowers existence, but a facet of it. Neither is this vaccine the culmination of their adultery to the truth. More is to come. The watchtower requires an holistic overview by us and the outcome for the individual is not based upon one single event, but a spiritual appraisal of all that watchtower represents. To understand that, one needs to hold it up to the mirror of understanding given us through the Bible and our own measure of faith that we draw from it. That is why people who love those principles set out in the Bible and whose conscience and understanding are sharpened, leave the watchtower according to their conscience. There is a trigger therein for all of us, according to our understanding and rarely just one single event. It’s referred to as the “heart condition”, being refined according to faith, that motivates the soul.

Did not the issues of child abuse alert many, let alone the vaccine? What about 1914? Many woke up then and left. These signals have been going on throughout alerting the brethren to the issues within watchtower. Then there was the watchtower allegiance to the UN. It’s our pursuit of truth and faith that opens our eyes to these events. If our heart is not right, then we are asleep to it all - and there the answer becomes clear and we must act and get out.

Is this you Barnaby or a brother from another mother?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1915363849647145245

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Is this you Barnaby or a brother from another mother?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1915363849647145245

My sister actually. She seems to be doing well!

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Ya know Barns, I confess. I usually dont read your post because like my grandfather youre too long winded and youre just to dang smart. But this post right here sir is just so poetically beautiful and easy to grasp. And even If some parts I didnt understand in word...I understood in spirit the point of what you were getting across. You truly are a gem. A long winded one....but beautiful nonetheless.

Thank you for your kind tolerance of my long windedness! I take your point, but as the bible was given us as a guideline to salvation, and as such is 783,137 words long, I have always assumed my humble offering of a couple of hundred words in support of it would be within the tolerance levels of most, even if I can at best, only offer a little conjecture on the matter from a polarised mind such as mine. My motive though is simplistic and not authoritative as I have no claim to such, in that I feel compelled to share what I have learnt from this site about the Bible, about Jehovah and Christ and the meaning of the creation, - and as I’m retired I at least feel employed in a useful way to give time to those asking, and by using my meagre understanding of life experience and free time to discuss that which may help others. I shall try to be brief!