UPDATE.....DEFECTIVE KINGDOM HALL

[4JahandChrist]

Ok Brothers I've got a bit of a Conundrum for yas.

About 30 years back one of the local Elders went rogue with his business practice and decided to buy "defective" "non structural" timber from Auctions. The timber was sold under the proviso that it should never be used in load bearing construction as it failed quality assurance testing and hence could only be used in things like retaining walls, Dog Kennels etc.

As the timber was defective it sold for a low price. The Elder would purchase it and then turn it into Wall and Roof frames and then use it to construct housing. He would get employees to remove the defective labelling so he couldn't get caught by inspectors.

The Elder was heavily involved with Quick Build Halls and unbeknown to the other brothers he supplied some of the defective timber for the Quick Builds.

One of those Quick Build Halls was sold not so long back and one of the factors that led to the Sale was that it was suspected that it was built from "non structural" timber.

The Hall was sold to another Church and the Brothers then went onto constructing another Quick Build. They got an excellent price for the Previous Hall and after the new one was built they were able to turn over a surplus profit that went back into the Building Fund.

The Brother relaying the account to me stated that under the law of "Buyer Beware" that the Brothers had not done anything illegal. He stated it is up to the purchaser to do the necessary Building inspections and that the Society had no legal necessity for disclosure.

I just heard there was an Earthquake in that town recently so that's what brought the situation to my mind.

If the Hall had of collapsed during the quake due to the lack of structural integrity of the Building Frames how would the Brothers stand in front of Jehovah?

Even if under the law of "Buyer Beware" they aren't legally liable, would that still be the case under Divine Law?

My thinking is that as a Society we should of incurred the loss and if the building couldn't be retro actively fixed or rectified we should of Dozed it and started again. Although the likelihood of the building collapsing is low, it still doesn't sit well with me that a Congregation of another Church is sitting in something that we constructed out of illegal inferior grade material.

Wadda ya reckon folks? Feel free to disagree btw. I'm not a builder or much of a business head so I may be skewed in my judgement.

PS...one of my associates worked for the rogue Elder and as a young apprentice part of his job was removing the "non structural" stickers from the timber. Even as young Lads it didn't sit well with us.

 

[BillyRay]

In my state…. If the seller knows of a defect or potential defect in the building, they are required to disclose it on the Property Condition Report.

Now…. Who the seller was…. versus who knew about the defect…. is an entirely different matter.

 

[SusanB]

Ok Brothers I've got a bit of a Conundrum for yas.

About 30 years back one of the local Elders went rogue with his business practice and decided to buy "defective" "non structural" timber from Auctions. The timber was sold under the proviso that it should never be used in load bearing construction as it failed quality assurance testing and hence could only be used in things like retaining walls, Dog Kennels etc.

As the timber was defective it sold for a low price. The Elder would purchase it and then turn it into Wall and Roof frames and then use it to construct housing. He would get employees to remove the defective labelling so he couldn't get caught by inspectors.

The Elder was heavily involved with Quick Build Halls and unbeknown to the other brothers he supplied some of the defective timber for the Quick Builds.

One of those Quick Build Halls was sold not so long back and one of the factors that led to the Sale was that it was suspected that it was built from "non structural" timber.

The Hall was sold to another Church and the Brothers then went onto constructing another Quick Build. They got an excellent price for the Previous Hall and after the new one was built they were able to turn over a surplus profit that went back into the Building Fund.

The Brother relaying the account to me stated that under the law of "Buyer Beware" that the Brothers had not done anything illegal. He stated it is up to the purchaser to do the necessary Building inspections and that the Society had no legal necessity for disclosure.

I just heard there was an Earthquake in that town recently so that's what brought the situation to my mind.

If the Hall had of collapsed during the quake due to the lack of structural integrity of the Building Frames how would the Brothers stand in front of Jehovah?

Even if under the law of "Buyer Beware" they aren't legally liable, would that still be the case under Divine Law?

My thinking is that as a Society we should of incurred the loss and if the building couldn't be retro actively fixed or rectified we should of Dozed it and started again. Although the likelihood of the building collapsing is low, it still doesn't sit well with me that a Congregation of another Church is sitting in something that we constructed out of illegal inferior grade material.

Wadda ya reckon folks? Feel free to disagree btw. I'm not a builder or much of a business head so I may be skewed in my judgement.

PS...one of my associates worked for the rogue Elder and as a young apprentice part of his job was removing the "non structural" stickers from the timber. Even as young Lads it didn't sit well with us.

It is deceit by any standards. I’m not sure if you are in the United States or not, but in the 2 states that I have lived in, California and Hawaii, if the building collapsed and the condition of the wood had not been disclosed they would look to the actual Seller of the property and determine if the Seller had knowledge of the defect and did not disclose it. I assume that would be the society who would likely claim to not have knowledge, whether they did or did not. But the Elder who did that certainly did commit fraud and it would probably take a good attorney to make a case that the society could have know or should have known. If the Elder who knew about the defective wood had a contractor’s license, I would guess his license could be in jeopardy and as a worker I certainly would have walked off a job, volunteer or not, that did something like that.

Think of the principle of a bull whose owner has knowledge that the bull is dangerous but does not take precautions so that the bull doesn’t kill anyone. If the precautions are not followed and the bull does kill someone then the owner was to be stoned. So, that is your answer. Can you say you love your neighbor if you hide known defects in the sale of property? Isn’t this the same principle as having honest and accurate “scales”?

 

[PJ54]

My guess is if someone was hurt due to the building then that law may not be as impactful. Either way, Bible principles were violated & I remember being taught when I was a student was to be honest in my business dealings. If someone gets hurt, that Elder should realize it'll reflect poorly on Jehovah & Jesus.

 

[PJ54]

It is deceit by any standards. I’m not sure if you are in the United States or not, but in the 2 states that I have lived in, California and Hawaii, if the building collapsed and the condition of the wood had not been disclosed they would look to the actual Seller of the property and determine if the Seller had knowledge of the defect and did not disclose it. I assume that would be the society who would likely claim to not have knowledge, whether they did or did not. But the Elder who did that certainly did commit fraud and it would probably take a good attorney to make a case that the society could have know or should have known. If the Elder who knew about the defective wood had a contractor’s license, I would guess his license could be in jeopardy and as a worker I certainly would have walked off a job, volunteer or not, that did something like that.

Think of the principle of a bull whose owner has knowledge that the bull is dangerous but does not take precautions so that the bull doesn’t kill anyone. If the precautions are not followed and the bull does kill someone then the owner was to be stoned. So, that is your answer. Can you say you love your neighbor if you hide known defects in the sale of property? Isn’t this the same principle as having honest and accurate “scales”?

BINGO! ^^^

 

[4JahandChrist]

Howdy Folks. Thanks for the excellent insights. The Original Elder has since passed away but was also disfellowshipped for Fraud a few years after the Quick Builds were built. Would you believe he got a hold of the Titles for the Kingdom Halls and Mortgaged them to get credit. He went Bankrupt in the end and the Creditors came looking for the KHs as part of the receivership process. Massive legal fight for the Society.

This was in Australia and it went all the way to head office in Brooklyn...a real nightmare.

Headlines in the State Newspaper ran "Elder Runs into Financial Trouble so turns to the Church.......AND MORTGAGES IT". True story.

I know the Society had no knowledge of the defective timber when construction took place but when the Penny finally dropped it just seems odd to flip the Property to another Church. As mentioned in your replies, that seems to go against everything being a Christian stands for.

Lets say I owned a house and Meditator and Driven decided they wanted to move to the better half of the Planet. If I knew that my house was built from defective material and that was the reason I was trying to flog it off to them.....how could that be considered Christian conduct?

Different if I told them and then we negotiated a price with that factored in the potential risk they were taking. Besides which, Meditator may not want the house to live in but just wants somewhere to Park his 5 SUVS and collection of Malibus. (not to mention Driven's Hoola Hoops )

When the brother told me of why they were selling the Hall and I questioned him on the Ethics the thing that struck me is there was not even a twinge of conscience. The attitude was like "Oh well.....the Buyer didn't do their due diligence so tough luck".

I know this may sound like I'm bangin on about things. But same congregation...different brothers. They would get high Mileage cars from Auction at a low price. They would then source low mileage Dash Boards from interstate and insert them before reselling.

They worked on the same "buyer beware " principle. If the person buying the car asks if the Miles are genuine then they would disclose. But if the buyer did not ask then that was their fault.

Young Lads buying their first cars would drive out of the lot with a Car saying it had done 50000 miles when it had really done 300,000.

The justification for changing the Dashboard was that it was cracked. Strange how they specifically asked for a low mileage Dash when they could of replaced it with one that was approx the same Miles and cheaper to purchase.

"Buyer Beware".....sounds like a gigantic Cop Out if misused or twisted.

 

[SusanB]

Howdy Folks. Thanks for the excellent insights. The Original Elder has since passed away but was also disfellowshipped for Fraud a few years after the Quick Builds were built. Would you believe he got a hold of the Titles for the Kingdom Halls and Mortgaged them to get credit. He went Bankrupt in the end and the Creditors came looking for the KHs as part of the receivership process. Massive legal fight for the Society.

This was in Australia and it went all the way to head office in Brooklyn...a real nightmare.

Headlines in the State Newspaper ran "Elder Runs into Financial Trouble so turns to the Church.......AND MORTGAGES IT". True story.

I know the Society had no knowledge of the defective timber when construction took place but when the Penny finally dropped it just seems odd to flip the Property to another Church. As mentioned in your replies, that seems to go against everything being a Christian stands for.

Lets say I owned a house and Meditator and Driven decided they wanted to move to the better half of the Planet. If I knew that my house was built from defective material and that was the reason I was trying to flog it off to them.....how could that be considered Christian conduct?

Different if I told them and then we negotiated a price with that factored in the potential risk they were taking. Besides which, Meditator may not want the house to live in but just wants somewhere to Park his 5 SUVS and collection of Malibus. (not to mention Driven's Hoola Hoops )

When the brother told me of why they were selling the Hall and I questioned him on the Ethics the thing that struck me is there was not even a twinge of conscience. The attitude was like "Oh well.....the Buyer didn't do their due diligence so tough luck".

I know this may sound like I'm bangin on about things. But same congregation...different brothers. They would get high Mileage cars from Auction at a low price. They would then source low mileage Dash Boards from interstate and insert them before reselling.

They worked on the same "buyer beware " principle. If the person buying the car asks if the Miles are genuine then they would disclose. But if the buyer did not ask then that was their fault.

Young Lads buying their first cars would drive out of the lot with a Car saying it had done 50000 miles when it had really done 300,000.

The justification for changing the Dashboard was that it was cracked. Strange how they specifically asked for a low mileage Dash when they could of replaced it with one that was approx the same Miles and cheaper to purchase.

"Buyer Beware".....sounds like a gigantic Cop Out if misused or twisted.

Sad to hear of that sort of thing, but hey the nation of Israel had the same corruption and so too with Jehovah’s Witnesses today. Thank you for telling me.

 

[4JahandChrist]

Sad to hear of that sort of thing, but hey the nation of Israel had the same corruption and so too with Jehovah’s Witnesses today. Thank you for telling me.

True. Wheat and Weeds. 7 Congs of Revelation. Nothing new under the Sun.

 

[SusanB]

True. Wheat and Weeds. 7 Congs of Revelation. Nothing new under the Sun.

Can’t wait until the weeds get pulled.

 

[Nomex]

Wadda ya reckon folks?

This is an easy one. If we are FORCED to OBEY Covid restrictions because of Romans 13 becasue of the very unlikley chance you might die becasue of who knows what...then you have to obey building codes. Whats more, this has always been a clear understanding that all buildings constructed by the WT strictly obey building codes. If the building was not in code, it is fraud plan and simple, and if someone dioed, those involved, including the GB are blood guilty and this is not up for debate, because the Gb set the standard. If no one ever died...still fraud! No debate.

 

[4JahandChrist]

This is an easy one. If we are FORCED to OBEY Covid restrictions because of Romans 13 becasue of the very unlikley chance you might die becasue of who knows what...then you have to obey building codes. Whats more, this has always been a clear understanding that all buildings constructed by the WT strictly obey building codes. If the building was not in code, it is fraud plan and simple, and if someone dioed, those involved, including the GB are blood guilty and this is not up for debate, because the Gb set the standard. If no one ever died...still fraud! No debate.

Good point. I actually didn't think of the Covid Connection. We bang on about obeying the Superior Authorities and having respect "for the sanctity of life"....."staying in the land of the living"...." Jehovah's Witnesses take a more cautious approach because of their respect for life"......and then you flip a KH with non structural timber off to a mainstream Church? Something a bit whiffy there.

Something to consider as well, in times of extreme weather or natural disasters Churches often use the facility as a gathering point for displaced people. Not the best place to be in the middle of a howling Storm if your timber joists are cracked, splintered or knotted.

To be clear, the Brothers built the hall not knowing the Elder had shonked them on the Timber. But they had known about it for a long time before they went to sell so they can't claim ignorance if something happened to the Church members that bought it.

 

[mreader]

The KHalls will not change their plans whether we will endlessly protest about that or not. They simply have a their own plans and certainly will follow it (according to the scriptures...). Instead debate on what KHalls and Watchtower will or will not do maybe would be more fruitful to focus on ourselves. Brothers and sisters in the KHalls who chose to follow the WTower have made their choices. The second Time they will have the second chance to make their choices will be when JEHOVAH will give them the second chance by issuing in HIS own Time the "only Terror can make them understand", after all everything is under JEHOVAH's control.

In meantime I suggests to more focus on our own spirituality, and to more examine ourselves about what is OUR personal standing in relation to JEHOVAH.

Our times are no longer about the kingdom hall(s). It's about OUR Personal spirituality that is where we should focus. Remember, that WE are the temple of JEHOVAH and that will be the case especially during the great tribulation...it is good to keep that in mind..

 

[4JahandChrist]

The KHalls will not change their plans whether we will endlessly protest about that or not. They simply have a their own plans and certainly will follow it (according to the scriptures...). Instead debate on what KHalls and Watchtower will or will not do maybe would be more fruitful to focus on ourselves. Brothers and sisters in the KHalls who chose to follow the WTower have made their choices. The second Time they will have the second chance to make their choices will be when JEHOVAH will give them the second chance by issuing in HIS own Time the "only Terror can make them understand", after all everything is under JEHOVAH's control.

In meantime I suggests to more focus on our own spirituality, and to more examine ourselves about what is OUR personal standing in relation to JEHOVAH.

Our times are no longer about the kingdom hall(s). It's about OUR Personal spirituality that is where we should focus. Remember, that WE are the temple of JEHOVAH and that will be the case especially during the great tribulation...it is good to keep that in mind..

Howdy MR. Thanks for your input.

The original intent of the thread was not on the Doctrinal Teaching of the Brothers but on the safety and welfare of the congregants of the Church that purchased the Kingdom Hall.

I found out last year that the Hall was built from defective material and subsequently sold for that reason.

Last week I was watching the Evening News and it was announced that there had been an Earthquake in that town and I immediately thought about the welfare of people that were now using the building.

My purpose for starting the Thread was to see how other Brothers felt about the situation and whether or not we would incur responsibility if someone got injured because of the sub standard material used in construction.

It's up to you what you think is worthy of your attention. That's why Forums are useful. Different people with different experiences sharing their wisdom and insight if they feel inclined to do so.

For me personally, I do care about the Congregation that now uses our Hall. Although it is one of Christendom's Churches that doesn't mean that we don't love them as our neighbour. I would feel terrible if someone lost a life due to negligence on our part as JWs.

Best wishes.

 

[mreader]

sorry I mist your point about a building a buildings........... I think I clicked in a wrong post.... an innocent mistake.

anyway.. It's great that you care about the Congregations, but I am not sure how Now it uses our Hall(s), as you say. As far as I know they have been locked. The meetings are on a Zoom. Maybe I am wrong I am no longer with the congregation....

As for Christendom's Churches, it is a Big NO, NO. No exceptions. That is why JEHOAVAH said He will destroy them and He mans that.

Don't stress, Take a deep breath and Enjoy your day

 

[4JahandChrist]

sorry I mist your point about a building a buildings........... I think I clicked in a wrong post.... an innocent mistake.

anyway.. It's great that you care about the Congregations, but I am not sure how Now it uses our Hall(s), as you say. As far as I know they have been locked. The meetings are on a Zoom. Maybe I am wrong I am no longer with the congregation....

As for Christendom's Churches, it is a Big NO, NO. No exceptions. That is why JEHOAVAH said He will destroy them and He mans that.

Don't stress, Take a deep breath and Enjoy your day

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but are you using a translator? It seems we are misunderstanding eachother.

The Church that now owns the Hall is entitled to a safe and sturdy location under law...both Secular and Divine.

You have a nice day also.

 

[BrooksB]

Howdy Folks. Thanks for the excellent insights. The Original Elder has since passed away but was also disfellowshipped for Fraud a few years after the Quick Builds were built. Would you believe he got a hold of the Titles for the Kingdom Halls and Mortgaged them to get credit. He went Bankrupt in the end and the Creditors came looking for the KHs as part of the receivership process. Massive legal fight for the Society.

This was in Australia and it went all the way to head office in Brooklyn...a real nightmare.

Headlines in the State Newspaper ran "Elder Runs into Financial Trouble so turns to the Church.......AND MORTGAGES IT". True story.

I know the Society had no knowledge of the defective timber when construction took place but when the Penny finally dropped it just seems odd to flip the Property to another Church. As mentioned in your replies, that seems to go against everything being a Christian stands for.

Lets say I owned a house and Meditator and Driven decided they wanted to move to the better half of the Planet. If I knew that my house was built from defective material and that was the reason I was trying to flog it off to them.....how could that be considered Christian conduct?

Different if I told them and then we negotiated a price with that factored in the potential risk they were taking. Besides which, Meditator may not want the house to live in but just wants somewhere to Park his 5 SUVS and collection of Malibus. (not to mention Driven's Hoola Hoops )

When the brother told me of why they were selling the Hall and I questioned him on the Ethics the thing that struck me is there was not even a twinge of conscience. The attitude was like "Oh well.....the Buyer didn't do their due diligence so tough luck".

I know this may sound like I'm bangin on about things. But same congregation...different brothers. They would get high Mileage cars from Auction at a low price. They would then source low mileage Dash Boards from interstate and insert them before reselling.

They worked on the same "buyer beware " principle. If the person buying the car asks if the Miles are genuine then they would disclose. But if the buyer did not ask then that was their fault.

Young Lads buying their first cars would drive out of the lot with a Car saying it had done 50000 miles when it had really done 300,000.

The justification for changing the Dashboard was that it was cracked. Strange how they specifically asked for a low mileage Dash when they could of replaced it with one that was approx the same Miles and cheaper to purchase.

"Buyer Beware".....sounds like a gigantic Cop Out if misused or twisted.

Aloha 4JahandChrist!

For the sake of clarity, all I need is a surf shack with enough room to house 20 or 30 carved planks to serve as recreational vehicles for me and you and a bunch of friends including Nomex and Cristo to ride out at Freshy in Harbord. I came to Manly in the 80's and surfed around there including a big day at Fairy Bower. The swells in Sidney Harbor during that particular swell event were making the ride on the ferry from Manly to the Quay fun!

Regarding "buyer beware", you cannot get away with that over here in Hawaii or likely the entire USA unless you as a seller truly do not know ANYTHING about the issue at hand. For us Realtors, it is such an ethics issue that we are obligated to "rat out" our own clients if we know something is amiss that our clients do not want disclosed. For example, we could lose our license over keeping silent if we knew that a leaky roof existed but our seller, our own client who we are fiduciaries for and owe our utmost loyalty to, tells us not to disclose the leaky roof to the buyer. So we proceed accordingly, in other words, we disclose that leaky roof anyway against the wishes of our own client. That is why the brothers (all of them) in the case of the non-structural lumber being used in structural applications could all be subject to some sort of punishment if the truth came out about the situation. Not that they are licensed agents but they are agents of "The Society" so to speak and are in the firing line of the attorneys who would surely enjoy a robust inquisition in the form of a deposition at a nice big conference table in their office in Downtown Sidney or wherever this K-Hall is located LOL. I know I am rambling here but you get my point.

As for the brothers changing out the odometers, that is absolutely criminal! Do you know that Ray Franz was DF'd for eating a meal(s) with a person who was dis-associated from the organization? Not disfellowshipped mind you but dis-associated! And these Arse-Pukas (puka means hole in Hawaiian, like the puka-shell that has one hole in it) are running around free as birds using this as a sort of business model? And they are brothers who enjoy good standing in the congregation? That is truly amazing!!

 

[4JahandChrist]

Aloha 4JahandChrist!

For the sake of clarity, all I need is a surf shack with enough room to house 20 or 30 carved planks to serve as recreational vehicles for me and you and a bunch of friends including Nomex and Cristo to ride out at Freshy in Harbord. I came to Manly in the 80's and surfed around there including a big day at Fairy Bower. The swells in Sidney Harbor during that particular swell event were making the ride on the ferry from Manly to the Quay fun!

Regarding "buyer beware", you cannot get away with that over here in Hawaii or likely the entire USA unless you as a seller truly do not know ANYTHING about the issue at hand. For us Realtors, it is such an ethics issue that we are obligated to "rat out" our own clients if we know something is amiss that our clients do not want disclosed. For example, we could lose our license over keeping silent if we knew that a leaky roof existed but our seller, our own client who we are fiduciaries for and owe our utmost loyalty to, tells us not to disclose the leaky roof to the buyer. So we proceed accordingly, in other words, we disclose that leaky roof anyway against the wishes of our own client. That is why the brothers (all of them) in the case of the non-structural lumber being used in structural applications could all be subject to some sort of punishment if the truth came out about the situation. Not that they are licensed agents but they are agents of "The Society" so to speak and are in the firing line of the attorneys who would surely enjoy a robust inquisition in the form of a deposition at a nice big conference table in their office in Downtown Sidney or wherever this K-Hall is located LOL. I know I am rambling here but you get my point.

As for the brothers changing out the odometers, that is absolutely criminal! Do you know that Ray Franz was DF'd for eating a meal(s) with a person who was dis-associated from the organization? Not disfellowshipped mind you but dis-associated! And these Arse-Pukas (puka means hole in Hawaiian, like the puka-shell that has one hole in it) are running around free as birds using this as a sort of business model? And they are brothers who enjoy good standing in the congregation? That is truly amazing!!

Howdy Meditator. Thanks for that Business Insight...absolutely Awesome. That's what I like about this Forum...."Wisdom in the Multitude of Counsellors".

I only Surfed in South Australia. There is a Surf Break called "Cactus" out where the Outback meets the Cliffs of the Southern Ocean that is legendary amongst Surfers in Australia. It has Breaks going in two directions and the waves come straight in from Antarctica and are extremely powerful.

I was too young and inexperienced to be Surfing there and I almost drowned after a massive wipe out. I also didn't like Surfing on Breaks in Great White territory. A few fatalities at Cactus. So my Surfing Career wasn't long but enough to see why you guys are so ape for it.

The Dash Board Brothers never got caught up with. I see them giving talks at District Assemblies. Like Driven said...just got to accept that it's part of the territory but sometimes it gets me down.

One of them actually confessed to me. He bought the Car from Auction and before he could resell it the Diff and the Trans blew because of the high KMs. His words to me were " I didn't want to put a low milage dash in there but what could I do? It cost me a packet to fix the Diff and Trans so I had to recoup the loss somehow and putting the New Dash in helped to fetch a higher price."

This is completely off topic...but that shows you that there can't be a Spiritual Paradise as we like to call it...when so many of the Brothers are covering serious sins. For every one JW that confesses there are another two that don't. And often the ones handling the Judicial Committees are the ones that haven't confessed.

Arse Puka......I like it. I'm glad you gave the interpretation. I would of read it as "Puker"......like "This Person is Puking out of their Arse".

I think you might of Sewn a Seed Meditator. I'm always looking for a new Metaphor to describe the Tosswads that surround me.....and both Arse Puka and Arse Puker would be suitable candidates!!

 

[kirmmy]

To play Devil's advocate...the gov saying something is inferior doesn't necessarily make it so.

I remember reading on a forum about a carpenter and outdoorsman wanting to build a house on his land. He harvested trees, properly aged (dried) them and then set up a temporary mill to cut them to size. He actually went oversize with the wood. As I'm sure most of you know, a 2x4 today is actually a 1.5x3.5. They call it nominal sizing, I believe. He cut his 2x4s as actual 2x4s. Same with all the other dimensions; 2x6; 2x8;2x10;4x4, etc, etc. That made for really strong, overspec building materials as long has he followed all other framing code. Nomex is a builder and can interject here if he wants.

Anyway, he applied for a permit to frame the house as it's the law and understandable. The inspector came on site, looked at the wood and gave him an instant fail. He argued with the inspector but his main contention was the wood didn't have a tax stamp. You know, that stamp on lumber that says where it comes from, etc. He also didn't like that it wasn't "standard" size.

He ended up taking them to court over the wood and, I believe, he won. He was allowed to build his super sturdy house.

Not saying that in your case, they didn't rip off the buyers...they did. But what if he had doubled up all the 2x4s in the roof trusses or did other things so that the construction was solid.

The question is; Did the building survive the quake? If it did, then it's probably not that big a deal, regarding the materials used. Perhaps they were government rejects that we're all that bad.

That doesn't make it any less of a sin what they did. They should have given full disclosure at the sale. Of course, that would have opened a whole other can of worms.

 

[4JahandChrist]

To play Devil's advocate...the gov saying something is inferior doesn't necessarily make it so.

I remember reading on a forum about a carpenter and outdoorsman wanting to build a house on his land. He harvested trees, properly aged (dried) them and then set up a temporary mill to cut them to size. He actually went oversize with the wood. As I'm sure most of you know, a 2x4 today is actually a 1.5x3.5. They call it nominal sizing, I believe. He cut his 2x4s as actual 2x4s. Same with all the other dimensions; 2x6; 2x8;2x10;4x4, etc, etc. That made for really strong, overspec building materials as long has he followed all other framing code. Nomex is a builder and can interject here if he wants.

Anyway, he applied for a permit to frame the house as it's the law and understandable. The inspector came on site, looked at the wood and gave him an instant fail. He argued with the inspector but his main contention was the wood didn't have a tax stamp. You know, that stamp on lumber that says where it comes from, etc. He also didn't like that it wasn't "standard" size.

He ended up taking them to court over the wood and, I believe, he won. He was allowed to build his super sturdy house.

Not saying that in your case, they didn't rip off the buyers...they did. But what if he had doubled up all the 2x4s in the roof trusses or did other things so that the construction was solid.

The question is; Did the building survive the quake? If it did, then it's probably not that big a deal, regarding the materials used. Perhaps they were government rejects that we're all that bad.

That doesn't make it any less of a sin what they did. They should have given full disclosure at the sale. Of course, that would have opened a whole other can of worms.

Howdy Kirmmy. Some excellent points there.

So looking at what you said through the eyes of Covid. We have seen Bureaucrats and Officials pass ridiculous laws based on over reactions and overreach. Governments can also be subject to such things with building codes etc. I use to do Occupation Health and Safety Audits and some of the Red Tape was nuts....just over governing and loads of Red Tape to justify some Pen Jotters existence.

In the case of the KH it's interesting that the Brother that related the account said that they thought the defective timber could become problematic. So on some level they weren't quite sure that the quality was up to standard over the long haul which was a factor that led to them selling and rebuilding.

When those KHs were built around 30 years ago the Society made it policy they be built to stand the test of time as they didn't want to ever double track and be back in the area again for another project. In other words....get it right the first time.

In regards to the Earthquake it was only minor....only about a 3.8 so not really much of a test of the framing integrity. It did make me think though of the need to expect the unexpected which is why I guess building Codes tend to like to over reach rather than under.

Thanks again for your input. It helped me to nuance my opinion somewhat and not stress as much about the danger to the new Church. As you say, the chances of something bad happening are probably remote so no real cause for alarm. Good stuff.

 

[BrooksB]

To play Devil's advocate...the gov saying something is inferior doesn't necessarily make it so.

I remember reading on a forum about a carpenter and outdoorsman wanting to build a house on his land. He harvested trees, properly aged (dried) them and then set up a temporary mill to cut them to size. He actually went oversize with the wood. As I'm sure most of you know, a 2x4 today is actually a 1.5x3.5. They call it nominal sizing, I believe. He cut his 2x4s as actual 2x4s. Same with all the other dimensions; 2x6; 2x8;2x10;4x4, etc, etc. That made for really strong, overspec building materials as long has he followed all other framing code. Nomex is a builder and can interject here if he wants.

Anyway, he applied for a permit to frame the house as it's the law and understandable. The inspector came on site, looked at the wood and gave him an instant fail. He argued with the inspector but his main contention was the wood didn't have a tax stamp. You know, that stamp on lumber that says where it comes from, etc. He also didn't like that it wasn't "standard" size.

He ended up taking them to court over the wood and, I believe, he won. He was allowed to build his super sturdy house.

Not saying that in your case, they didn't rip off the buyers...they did. But what if he had doubled up all the 2x4s in the roof trusses or did other things so that the construction was solid.

The question is; Did the building survive the quake? If it did, then it's probably not that big a deal, regarding the materials used. Perhaps they were government rejects that we're all that bad.

That doesn't make it any less of a sin what they did. They should have given full disclosure at the sale. Of course, that would have opened a whole other can of worms.

I am a long time carpenter (turned realtor 25 years ago though) and have opened up many old homes here on Oahu to find full sized lumber where 2x4's were exactly that, 2x4. Same with the 2x6 and so on. The other thing about old homes on Oahu is that once in a while you run into old Japanese style joinery in which the joints are put together with wooden dowels instead of nails and the joints themselves are exquisitely mastered by craftsmen using really cool old Japanese hand saws. Very interesting stuff.

 

[4JahandChrist]

UPDATE 7/4/2022



Howdy Brothers. I am in the midst of another Internet Sabbatical but I thought I'd better quickly chime in with an interesting Update.

I ran into a Brother today by happenstance and they said their congregation is sharing a Hall with another congregation on a temporary basis.

The reason? It has been brought to the Societies attention that some of the Halls have been constructed with "defective" material that was supplied for the Quick Builds without the Society being aware.

Their Hall was built at the same time as the Hall mentioned at the start of this thread.

The Brother said " The Society is having to go into the ceilings and try and rectify the defective material in the Roof Trusses. Congregation will not return to the Hall till the problem is rectified. "

Do you think someone picked up on the topic of this thread and notified the Society? Could all be a coincidence but it's strange that this just leaped out of nowhere 30 years after the Halls were constructed.

It also shows that my original concern and also the concern of you Brothers in your posts was completely valid.

It's extremely worrisome that the Elders in the original Congregation mentioned at the start of the thread simply thought that flipping the property on to another Church was the best way to handle it.

Hats off to the Society for rectifying the situation.....EVENTUALLY.

And again, strangely coincidental that the decision is made to retro actively fix the Halls shortly after this thread was posted. Interesting ay??