Wednesday, March 8 2023 Does God preempt our free will?

[PJ54]

Wednesday, March 8 2023​

Choose for yourselves . . . whom you will serve.—Josh. 24:15.​

Jehovah has given us the gift of free will. We can choose which course we will take in life. Our loving God rejoices when we choose to serve him. (Ps. 84:11; Prov. 27:11) We can use our free will properly in many areas. Following the example of Jesus, we can choose to put the interests of others ahead of our own. Once when Jesus and his apostles were very tired, they traveled to a quiet place where they hoped to get some rest. However, that was not to be. A crowd found them, and they were eager to be taught by Jesus. But Jesus did not become irritated. Instead, he felt pity for the people. So, what did Jesus do? “He started to teach them many things.” (Mark 6:30-34) When we imitate Jesus by sacrificing our time and energy to help others, we bring glory to our heavenly Father.—Matt. 5:14-16. w21.08 3 ¶7-8
Examining the Scriptures Daily—2023

Does God preempt our free will?

Is Jehovah all knowing, in the sense of looking into the future and knowing the choices that all individuals will make during the cou...

questions-4jehovahs-witnesses.blogspot.com

Does God preempt our free will?​

Is Jehovah all knowing, in the sense of looking into the future and knowing the choices that all individuals will make during the course of their lives, prior to them actually making those choices? If so, does He exercise that knowledge? And if He does exercise that knowledge does He act on it prior to choices being made? And if so would this not remove the right of an individual to exercise free will? Are there scriptures that shed light on this?

It is not a question of whether Jehovah has the ability to do such a thing. Jesus once said that with God nothing is impossible. But, the question is whether God chooses to use his power to know in advance certain details. As you note, Jehovah has granted us the right of free will. Take the example of Cain: God specifically warned him of the terrible consequences of the path that he was on. But, did God intervene to prevent Cain from choosing to follow the Devil and become a murderer? No, he didn't. Did God indicate that Cain's course was predestined? Again, the answer is no. God did, however, set before Cain the two possible outcomes based upon the exercise of free will. At Genesis 4:7, Jehovah asked: "If you turn to doing good, will there not be an exaltation? But, if you do not turn to doing good, there is sin crouching at the entrance, and for you is its craving; and will you, for your part, get the mastery over it?" The above verse indicates that God does not intervene to prevent us from making wrong choices. He respects that we are free moral agents, and apparently he is interested in watching to see how we use our free will. The fact that there would be an exaltation, apparently in heaven, in accord with Jesus' own comments about the angels rejoicing over one sinner that repents, indicates that Jehovah and his heavenly family do not choose to know our individual outcomes. Instead, they are cheering us on to make the right decisions. After all, God wants his creatures to love him. Love, by its very nature, must be voluntary and spontaneous—not controlled or contrived in anyway. Of course, though, we also recognize that God does, at times, intervene to countermand and over-ride the will of man in order to ensure that his will is ultimately accomplished—which is his prerogative as God Almighty. But, such occasions are rare. Jesus once stated that Jehovah is so cognizant of his creation that it does not escape his notice when even one lowly sparrow falls to the earth. Even though through prophecy God demonstrates his ability to know the end before the beginning, the very fact that Jehovah watches the goings-on of his vast Creation so closely indicates that he gets great satisfaction out of little surprises—particularly as it relates to those creatures who are made in his image and the choices they make in order to demonstrate their love and affection for their heavenly Father.

Posted 9th July 2011 by Unknown

 

[PJ54]

Something I wanted to add here. I have thought about the issue of free will for a long time & not too long ago it dawned on me how free will works for mankind (at for me). While others argue predeterminism vs total free will, I have come to the conclusion that the aspect of time plays a huge role. If all is predetermined/predestined or only cause & effect, then time is totally linear & we have no control over our actions nor our thoughts. On the other hand if we have absolute free will, then we can control everything from small happenings to prophetic events (we can override God's sovereignty). Neither one really rings true. From what I understand at the moment, time only goes forward but it's not linear. Rather it branch out like a tree going forward in time. Every branch point we come to is a moment of choice & that choice will cause certain events to transpire. It's like a 2nd person narrative gamebook/hypertext fiction (book) or a visual novel (online). Also, freewill is more of a spectrum & a hierarchy like the idea of the Great chain of being with God with having absolute freewill to the elements having no free will at all. Part of this is likely due to the level of consciousness & power a being has. This is just my take but it rings true to me. Here's some images that might help:

 

[alan ford]

From what I understand at the moment, time only goes forward but it's not linear. Rather it branch out like a tree going forward in time. Every branch point we come to is a moment of choice & that choice will cause certain events to transpire

This is also my understanding. This subject was touched recently in one of the threads, and as I was thinking about this, I came to the same conclusion. To me it's interesting to see how each time it branches, it influences others' timelines as well.

 

[DR74minus]

Something I wanted to add here. I have thought about the issue of free will for a long time & not too long ago it dawned on me how free will works for mankind (at for me). While others argue predeterminism vs total free will, I have come to the conclusion that the aspect of time plays a huge role. If all is predetermined/predestined or only cause & effect, then time is totally linear & we have no control over our actions nor our thoughts. On the other hand if we have absolute free will, then we can control everything from small happenings to prophetic events (we can override God's sovereignty). Neither one really rings true. From what I understand at the moment, time only goes forward but it's not linear. Rather it branch out like a tree going forward in time. Every branch point we come to is a moment of choice & that choice will cause certain events to transpire. It's like a 2nd person narrative gamebook/hypertext fiction (book) or a visual novel (online). Also, freewill is more of a spectrum & a hierarchy like the idea of the Great chain of being with God with having absolute freewill to the elements having no free will at all. Part of this is likely due to the level of consciousness & power a being has. This is just my take but it rings true to me. Here's some images that might help:
View attachment 3389View attachment 3390

Ya know a bit about pyramid schemes do ya? On a serial note, you might be getting confused mixing time with what happens over time. ie; What happens in the stream of time may be branched but not time, prehaps. As we're/I'm; able to see, Jehovah created time by creating the "Word" Then the branchlike thing showed up. no branches of time, just branches in what happens over time but.

Free will thats a tricky one. I think it is full of it ( I missed a couple letters ), I don't think it is precisely what people think it is. Places in the bible where the expression is used does not fit prehaps. But interesting thoughts you present.

Cheers.

 

[kirmmy]

Ya know a bit about pyramid schemes do ya? On a serial note, you might be getting confused mixing time with what happens over time. ie; What happens in the stream of time may be branched but not time, prehaps. As we're/I'm; able to see, Jehovah created time by creating the "Word" Then the branchlike thing showed up. no branches of time, just branches in what happens over time but.

Free will thats a tricky one. I think it is full of it ( I missed a couple letters ), I don't think it is precisely what people think it is. Places in the bible where the expression is used does not fit prehaps. But interesting thoughts you present.

Cheers.

Think of it as being in a river. The river flows forward constantly but what we do in the river affects us and sometimes those around us but not the river itself.

 

[The God Pill]

On the branched argument I've mentioned before perhaps there's a (finite) plurality of timelines in contrasting extents of actuality the points in time where events are unavoidable intents of God's will being convergence points where things condense to a singular timeline before variegating again. A sort of three dimensional structure reciprocal to space 1. Direction of time 2. Speed/rate (analogous to horizontal axis the angle of forward or backward motion) 3. Timeline in (vertical axis) a good way of thinking of it is a DNA like double helix structure the perimeter of the structure thr bounds from the creator the base pairs how everything unfolds from the collective actions and freewill of all intelligent life. Essentially everything influences whatever segment of time they're in between convergences but the max sum total of creations influence is the inverse golden ratio of the equation approx 8/13 of the influence the Creator can bring to bear at any moment essentially 0.618 relative to his 1 in 1.618. This would mean the ongoing actualization of reality to its full potential would be a cooperative process augmented by the harmony of Jehovah's family as it expands essentially parallel processing rendering more of the omniverse to high resolution

 

[PJ54]

Think of it as being in a river. The river flows forward constantly but what we do in the river affects us and sometimes those around us but not the river itself.

I was wondering how to explain the idea. Thanks for bringing that up!

 

[PJ54]

On the branched argument I've mentioned before perhaps there's a (finite) plurality of timeliness in contrasting extents of actuality the points in time where events are unavoidable intents of God's will being convergence points where things condense to a singular timeline before variegating again. A sort of three dimensional structure reciprocal to space 1. Direction of time 2. Speed/rate (analogous to horizontal axis the angle of forward or backward motion) 3. Timeline in (vertical axis) a good way of thinking of it is a DNA like double helix structure the perimeter of the structure thr bounds from the creator the base pairs how everything unfolds from the collective actions and freewill of all intelligent life. Essentially everything influences whatever segment of time they're in between convergences but the max sum total is the inverse golden ratio of the equation approx 8/13 of the influence the Creator can bring to bear at any moment. This would mean the ongoing actualization of reality to its full potential would be a cooperative process augmented by the harmony of Jehovah's family as it expands essentially parallel processing rendering more of the omniverse to high resolution

This has me wonder about freewill in the New System/New Age. It seems likely we will have more than we did before & that's something I'd like. I already have had life pull me around like a doll & it's tiresome to say the least.

 

[DR74minus]

Think of it as being in a river. The river flows forward constantly but what we do in the river affects us and sometimes those around us but not the river itself.

Time is constant from when it began and on into the future. the variables ( branches ) are the occurrences or events, etc over time.