What do demons or angels look like?

[Nomex]

Me: Is he alive?
You: Yes.
Me: Then he didn't give up his life.

My father-in-law died last year. He was 90. He was crying out to Jesus as he was dying begging for his life. This was a man who was not one of JW's , wasn't particularly a good man, and yet he didn't want to die, and did not die with dignity or grace because he was so afraid of dying. And he was not beaten with a whip that literally ripped the flesh from the bone, and then nailed alive to a tree/stake/cross, whatever, and left to slowly die an agonizing death.

Not to mention to get resurrected Jesus had to die faithfully. So your entire argument is a false equivalency.

Your whole argument is dismissive of what Jesus had to live through and then die through. Your whole argument assumes dying is not a sacrifice, because he got something else by dying. Yeah, except he literally had to face death and literally die to get that reward. Let's see how you do when faced with death fellow! It's no big deal!

It's insulting that you think facing death is no big deal, no sacrifice. Jesus most likely volunteered for this assignment. Volunteered to go through the horrible experience of living a human mid-evil life for 30 years, no running water or sewage, when he was the only begotten spirit son of God, and his only escape from the human existence, was to be almost beaten to death, and then tortured to death on the stake, then and only then could he get a resurrection, but only if he remained faithful to God up until the very point of his death. Yeah, no big deal, he's alive and well now!

No sacrifice what so ever.

Jesus made a sacrifice to even become a human. I think maybe someone needs to beat you within an inch of your life, then maybe you'll appreciate what Jesus did...

What a jerk! Why are you even here?

 

[Zane]

Your whole argument is dismissive of what Jesus had to live through and then die through.

I will say it for a third time: "I truly believe that Jesus DID give up his life for us."
He gave more than you know.

 

[kirmmy]

God can very well let all humans die and then create a new race and by that race prove the devil a liar and prove Jehovah's supremacy.

That would have made God look weak and ineffective. There was no way he was going to do that. In a small way he would have satisfied the Devil, instead of proving him a liar. The Devil brought up a point and God let him conduct his trial to show all that his way is the best and only way. And so we benefit because God is a perfect, steady, all knowing and all seeing being that will actually let you question him. (Of course, the devil did more than question...his rebellion was his question)

Imagine being the best carpenter in the world. You create a grandfather clock that is beautiful, intricate and supremely efficient. You present the clock to your customer but it's discovered that the clock is broken. Someone sabotaged it. What will the carpenter do? Destroy it and start again? No, he will fix it and present it again to his customers. It shows everyone he is the best carpenter that ever existed and he will rather fix a masterwork than destroy it, admit defeat and start over.

Same with the ransom sacrifice. Why have it at all? Why not just give mankind a pass?

Both of these go to the same base. God is likened to a rock, unchangeable, unmovable and as steady as time itself. He can be relied upon to infinity. His rules are just and good and he won't give anyone a pass. Jesus had to die so he could take that as an exchange for Adam for his perfect justice to be satisfied.

When one thinks about it deeply, it really highlights God's absolute genius, his love, his steadiness. It gives one faith that he can be relied upon no matter what. Deut 32:4

 

[Truth_Seeker]

That would have made God look weak and ineffective. There was no way he was going to do that. In a small way he would have satisfied the Devil, instead of proving him a liar. The Devil brought up a point and God let him conduct his trial to show all that his way is the best and only way. And so we benefit because God is a perfect, steady, all knowing and all seeing being that will actually let you question him. (Of course, the devil did more than question...his rebellion was his question)

Imagine being the best carpenter in the world. You create a grandfather clock that is beautiful, intricate and supremely efficient. You present the clock to your customer but it's discovered that the clock is broken. Someone sabotaged it. What will the carpenter do? Destroy it and start again? No, he will fix it and present it again to his customers. It shows everyone he is the best carpenter that ever existed and he will rather fix a masterwork than destroy it, admit defeat and start over.

Same with the ransom sacrifice. Why have it at all? Why not just give mankind a pass?

Both of these go to the same base. God is likened to a rock, unchangeable, unmovable and as steady as time itself. He can be relied upon to infinity. His rules are just and good and he won't give anyone a pass. Jesus had to die so he could take that as an exchange for Adam for his perfect justice to be satisfied.

When one thinks about it deeply, it really highlights God's absolute genius, his love, his steadiness. It gives one faith that he can be relied upon no matter what. Deut 32:4

"remember the former things, those long ago: I am God, there is no other; I am God, there is none like me. At the beginning I declare the outcome; from of old, things not yet done. I say that my plan shall stand, I accomplish my every desire. I summon from the east a bird of prey, from a distant land, one to carry out my plan. Yes, I have spoken, I will accomplish it; I have planned it, and I will do it. Listen to me, you fainthearted, far from the victory of justice: I am bringing on that victory, it is not far off, my salvation shall not tarry; I will put salvation within Zion, give to Israel my glory." Isaiah 46:9‭-‬13

Jehovah has the power to bring everything to completion. He acts the way He pleases, though righteously. I was just saying hypothetically. After all everything belongs to Him. He is not indebted to anyone.

 

[JulioG]

Oh i truly believe that Jesus DID give up his life for us.
I just think that common thinking goes against that since it is believed that he is alive in heaven.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying... do you believe that Jesus is in heaven as a spirit and it is his physical life that is not in heaven as the Trinitarians believe or do you believe that Jesus is not actually alive physically or spiritually?

 

[Cristo]

What sacrifice did Jesus make?

The sacrifices required by the Mosaic Law were the foreshadowing of what was to come, Jesus Christ. You are confusing the fact that he WAS the sacrifice, with the sacrifices he made by allowing himself to be so.

“. . .Therefore, become imitators of God, as beloved children, 2 and go on walking in love, just as the Christ also loved YOU and delivered himself up for YOU as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling odor.” Eph 5:1-2​

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“. . .But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself.” Heb 9:26​

It would be like claiming that giving up your old cheap unreliable car for a new expensive car was a sacrifice. (He 11:40; Ro 8:23; 2Co 5:2)

The fact that you compare Jesus perfect human life to an old cheap unreliable car shows me you don't really comprehend clearly what you are asking.