Which method of execution is accurate and true? A or B?

Jahrule

Well-known member
Yeah, except, there is no reason what so ever, why the nails could not have been driven through his wrists on a cross...let me put it another way, whether Jesus died on a stake or a cross is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY IRRELEVANT! The only reason WT tries to make it relevant, is because WT was not satisfied with being right about some things, they desperately wanted to be right about all things..."pride comes before a fall."
Let me put it yet another way, one of WT's claims is that Jehovah would not have allowed Jesus to die on a "pagan cross." So Jehovah allowed Jesus to be humiliated, falsely accused of blasphemy, beaten, NO SCOURGED! Whipped with a whip that literally tore the skin/flesh off of the bone, then nail to a stake/cross and KILLED BY pagan's AND THE DEVIL...but Jehovah said..."no I draw the line at my son dying on a cross."


ABSURD! And again, completely and totally irrelevant, and I might add, I have a whole thread about how JW's make crap up and straight up LIE, to lend credence to something we have no way of knowing one way or another!
Exactly. I never understood why they were so committed on this issue. If it was a stake. Fine. If it wasn't? Oh well. He still died. It might not be the exact cross shape we know today if it was a cross. It could have been a shorter cross beam. It could have been more like a capital T shape with his hands direction raised above his head. But who cares? It reminds me of an episode of South Park.

In the "Passion of the Jew" episode of South Park, Stan delivers a powerful monologue about the crucifixion of Jesus and how people focus on his death rather than his teachings. Stan points out that many people were crucified in those times, and it's wrong to fixate on the manner of Jesus' death. He argues that true Christianity should be based on following Jesus' teachings and living by his example, rather than obsessing over the details of his crucifixion.

Stan's monologue is a commentary on the way some people approach religion, emphasizing the importance of focusing on the underlying message and values rather than the symbols or traditions. He suggests that concentrating too much on Jesus' death can lead to the kind of dangerous fanaticism that was prevalent during the Dark Ages.
 
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Nomex

Well-known member
I just have to reiterate, whether Jesus died on a cross or a stake is completely irreverent. He died faithfully as a perfect man, that's the ONLY thing that matters. Splitting hairs about it, all that does is reveal who and what you really are. You'd rather argue nonsense, just to prove you're right, and why, to make yourself seem smarter than the other person. What this reveals about WT, is going back all the way to the beginning, is how much they were and still are influenced by their own arrogance! And if you continue to follow this pattern, it exposes who and what you are!

Once again I'll repeat this because it is the ONLY thing that matters when it come to Jesus death. He died faithfully as a perfect man, that's the ONLY thing that matters.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Exactly. I never understood why they were so committed on this issue. If it was a stake. Fine. If it wasn't? Oh well. He still died. It might not be the exact cross shape we know today if it was a cross. It would have been a shorter cross beam. It could have been more like a capital T shape with his hands direction raised above his head. But who cares? It reminds me of an episode of South Park.

In the "Passion of the Jew" episode of South Park, Stan delivers a powerful monologue about the crucifixion of Jesus and how people focus on his death rather than his teachings. Stan points out that many people were crucified in those times, and it's wrong to fixate on the manner of Jesus' death. He argues that true Christianity should be based on following Jesus' teachings and living by his example, rather than obsessing over the details of his crucifixion.

Stan's monologue is a commentary on the way some people approach religion, emphasizing the importance of focusing on the underlying message and values rather than the symbols or traditions. He suggests that concentrating too much on Jesus' death can lead to the kind of dangerous fanaticism that was prevalent during the Dark Ages.
Excellent comment...so much to unpack from this...and so very true...and is exactly my point as well!!!
 

Nomex

Well-known member
LOL...just look at this Brainwashed title...nobody who thinks about this has considered for one moment, why anyone would care, whether Jesus died on a stake or a cross. And only a narcissist, would think anyone cares about this BS!

The only relevant part of the question in the title is, "method". How does the "method" in which Jesus died relative to my, and the rest of humanities eternity? Answer...IT DOESN'T! To the person posing the question, it gives him a dopamine rush if he somehow feels his point of view has been validated!

Oh, and I'll tell you this, just like the rest of Satan's world, this BS is just a distraction from what really matters. Just more proof Satan has infiltrated WT!
 

Nomex

Well-known member
One more thing about this...I just noticed this is posted in the "Bible Questions" section...so think about this...the Bible "question" that you'd think about if you were talking to an "interested person". If you ask the house holder a question like this, what do we imagine comes to their mind? The answer is not what you might think first. The person is not thinking, "how can this benefit me, and my relationship with my creator."

The person is confronted with something he's never heard before, and if you can make a convincing argument, you've "made the sale."
But what did you sell? Was it a Gospel message or something completely different?

The way a magician works, is distraction, which is essentially a form of deception! He gets you looking in a different direction, while he deceives you with his other hand. And he doesn't even have to conceal the deception in the other hand, because he's distracted you with the deception of the of first hand.

WT are nothing more than "magic practicing priests."
 

BroRando

Member
Jesus%2Bimpaled.jpg
300px-Justus_Lipsius_Crux_Simplex_1629.jpg
stauros2.jpg


There are two Greek words in question: stauros (stow-rose or stav-rose) and xylon (ksee-lon). Peter seems to favor xylon. For example, in his speech recorded at Acts 5:30 Peter says, "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a [xylon]." Some bibles translate that as "cross" and some as "tree." Which is correct?

Genesis 40:19 talks about the execution of an Egyptian, his body being 'hung on a tree.' When the passage was translated into the Greek Septuagint version, the translators used a form of the word xylon. Jerome's Latin Vulgate says the baker was to be hanged on a cruce, a form of the word crux. In English, some bibles say the baker was hanged on a cross, but the primary definition of crux is tree, not cross. Further, there is no historical evidence that the Egyptians crucified people, There is, however, historical evidence that they displayed the dead bodies of people with whom they were displeased by hanging them on trees or impaling them on poles.

Ambiguity of terms used​

The Koine Greek terms used in the New Testament of the structure on which Jesus died are stauros (σταυρός) and xylon (ξύλον). Those words, which can refer to many different things, do not indicate the precise shape of the structure. Scholars have long known that the Greek word stauros and the Latin word crux did not uniquely mean a cross.
The magic virtues attributed to the so-called sign of the cross, the worship bestowed on it, never came from such a source. The same sign of the cross that Rome now worships was used in the Babylonian Mysteries, was applied by Paganism to the same magic purposes, was honoured with the same honours. That which is now called the Christian cross was originally no Christian emblem at all, but was the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans and Egyptians--the true original form of the letter T--the initial of the name of Tammuz--which, in Hebrew, radically the same as ancient Chaldee, was found on coins. That mystic Tau was marked in baptism on the foreheads of those initiated in the Mysteries, * and was used in every variety of way as a most sacred symbol.
 

Ana

Well-known member
Que pensará Jehová de los que crean una temática minuciosa de la forma detallada en la que torturaron a su hijo. Sólo pienso...
 

Nomex

Well-known member
@BroRando Your picture above to the far right, is a complete lie. That is NOT a person who was "nailed" to a stake. In fact it is not even a historical depiction of anything but rather, a depiction from Greek mythology of a Satyr who was tied to a tree and then skinned alive. This is the problem with WT propaganda. Do you think such lies bring honor to Jehovah?



And as you can see in the close up photos from your picture above, there are no nails in the feet or hands, not to mention there is a plaque in the Louvre that explains exactly what that statue is...I wonder why that part is always left out?


 

BroRando

Member
@BroRando Your picture above to the far right, is a complete lie. That is NOT a person who was "nailed" to a stake. In fact it is not even a historical depiction of anything but rather, a depiction from Greek mythology of a Satyr who was tied to a tree and then skinned alive. This is the problem with WT propaganda. Do you think such lies bring honor to Jehovah?
Isn't Hades and Hell part of Greek Mythology?
  • “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” (Rev 20:13)
The Greek Hades/Hell is not so eternal now is it? Greek mythology is taught by trinitarians who deny "Jesus is 'the Christ the Son of the living God.' (Matthew 16:16) Trinitarians worship what? The cross. They also claim God became flesh.
  • For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2 John 1:7)
 

Jahrule

Well-known member
Isn't Hades and Hell part of Greek Mythology?
  • “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” (Rev 20:13)
The Greek Hades/Hell is not so eternal now is it? Greek mythology is taught by trinitarians who deny "Jesus is 'the Christ the Son of the living God.' (Matthew 16:16) Trinitarians worship what? The cross. They also claim God became flesh.
  • For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2 John 1:7)
Sorry. I know I'm not Nomex, but I don't understand the point here. None of us believe in a literal hell or in the trinity.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Isn't Hades and Hell part of Greek Mythology?
Nice straw-man argument...and another completely irrelevant point.

The fact remains WT and many R&F use the picture you put above, in some desperate attempt to "prove" Jesus didn't die on a cross, (something which once again.

is completely irrelevant and something no one could ever prove), but regardless is NOT ANY depiction of a crucifixion, or someone nailed to a stake, but rather something completely unrelated in any way whatsoever, therefore a LIE! Greek mythology has nothing to do with it besides the context of what that image is of. It is a lie of omission something, WT are masters of.

And since you didn't answer my question, I'll ask it again, do you think such lies bring honor to our God?

Trinitarians worship what? The cross.
Yeah, and who do Jehovah's Witnesses worship? The Governing Body!

3 Let no one lead you astray* in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.g 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

2 Thes. 2:3,4
 

BroRando

Member
@BroRando Your picture above to the far right, is a complete lie. That is NOT a person who was "nailed" to a stake. In fact it is not even a historical depiction of anything but rather, a depiction from Greek mythology of a Satyr who was tied to a tree and then skinned alive. This is the problem with WT propaganda. Do you think such lies bring honor to Jehovah?


Scholars have long known that the Greek word stauros and the Latin word crux did not uniquely mean a cross.

The magic virtues attributed to the so-called sign of the cross, the worship bestowed on it, never came from such a source. The same sign of the cross that Rome now worships was used in the Babylonian Mysteries, was applied by Paganism to the same magic purposes, was honoured with the same honours.

do you think such lies bring honor to our God?
 

Nomex

Well-known member
LOL, wow, quotes without any context and no links, it must be true.

The funniest thing is, I ask you a question about a picture you posted, that seems to depicted a crucifixion, stake or otherwise, which again, you did not put the link to the source of the picture, and irony of ironies, that's exactly how I first came across that picture, because it's going around of JW social media pages, again with NO context. But there was just enough for me to look it up and find it. So I then post all the actual information, completely proving that the context in which you posted the picture is a complete and utter lie, but you cannot and will no answer the question, because you don't have one.

And then you continue to do the very thing that has destroyed any hint of credibility you may have had.

And the most ironic part of this, is all you had to do is say, "Oh I didn't know that about that picture, I won't post it again", and that would have been the end of it, and we would all know you were an honest hearted person...but you are not, you did the opposite and like most brain washed R&F, your arrogance prevents you from seeing truth if it goes against your installed programing from WT!
 

Nomex

Well-known member
@BroRando Here's the thing that really pisses me off. The only issue that matters with regards to the cross, is whether you use it in your worship, and therefore make it into an Idol, exactly like the JW.org pin all the brothers now where. It is no different other than the cross has been traditionally used by pagans. But rather then focus on "the more important things" you get into the weeds about something nobody can ever prove, and your above quote, which I will now PROVE you took out of context, says EXACTLY what I have been saying.

Here is the paragraph you took the above quote from and I unlike you will also provide the link....

Ambiguity of terms used​

The Koine Greek terms used in the New Testament of the structure on which Jesus died are stauros (σταυρός) and xylon (ξύλον). Those words, which can refer to many different things, do not indicate the precise shape of the structure. Scholars have long known that the Greek word stauros and the Latin word crux did not uniquely mean a cross. They have known too that the words had that meaning also, and so have not considered necessarily incorrect the traditional picture of a cross with transom.


In the paragraph directly above it says this...and this is the point....

In 2011 Gunnar Samuelsson concluded that there is not enough evidence in pre-Christian ancient texts or in the New Testament writings themselves to resolve the ambiguity of the terms referring to the instrument on which Jesus was executed.[1] On the other hand David W Chapman argues that to take one single Greek word and conclude that it has one universal and unchanging meaning like the word stauros “is a common word study fallacy in some populist literature.


Link to the article...which I had to find myself, and like I said, the internet makes it impossible fro WT to get away with their lies of omission as long as people are willing to "prove to themselves the things written"...and not just have your beliefs dictated to you.



Here's how deceptive this really is...the sentence prior to the sentence you quoted says this...

"Those words, which can refer to many different things, do not indicate the precise shape of the structure."

In other words it is impossible to prove one way or the other what Jesus died on!
 

BroRando

Member
@BroRando Here's the thing that really pisses me off. The only issue that matters with regards to the cross, is whether you use it in your worship, and therefore make it into an Idol, exactly like the JW.org pin all the brothers now where. It is no different other than the cross has been traditionally used by pagans. But rather then focus on "the more important things" you get into the weeds about something nobody can ever prove, and your above quote, which I will now PROVE you took out of context, says EXACTLY what I have been saying.

Here is the paragraph you took the above quote from and I unlike you will also provide the link....

Ambiguity of terms used​

The Koine Greek terms used in the New Testament of the structure on which Jesus died are stauros (σταυρός) and xylon (ξύλον). Those words, which can refer to many different things, do not indicate the precise shape of the structure. Scholars have long known that the Greek word stauros and the Latin word crux did not uniquely mean a cross. They have known too that the words had that meaning also, and so have not considered necessarily incorrect the traditional picture of a cross with transom.


In the paragraph directly above it says this...and this is the point....

In 2011 Gunnar Samuelsson concluded that there is not enough evidence in pre-Christian ancient texts or in the New Testament writings themselves to resolve the ambiguity of the terms referring to the instrument on which Jesus was executed.[1] On the other hand David W Chapman argues that to take one single Greek word and conclude that it has one universal and unchanging meaning like the word stauros “is a common word study fallacy in some populist literature.


Link to the article...which I had to find myself, and like I said, the internet makes it impossible fro WT to get away with their lies of omission as long as people are willing to "prove to themselves the things written"...and not just have your beliefs dictated to you.



Here's how deceptive this really is...the sentence prior to the sentence you quoted says this...

"Those words, which can refer to many different things, do not indicate the precise shape of the structure."

In other words it is impossible to prove one way or the other what Jesus died on!

1 Kings 18:19

And now summon all Israel to me at Mount Carʹmel, as well as the 450 prophets of Baʹal and the 400 prophets of the sacred pole, who are eating at the table of Jezʹe·bel.”

2 Chronicles 24:18

They abandoned the house of Jehovah the God of their forefathers and began serving the sacred poles and the idols, so that God’s anger came against Judah and Jerusalem because of their guilt.

You make the claim it was irrelevant and yet no one can know. Jehovah thinks its relevant. Argue away and make your plea known to him that it does not matter in which method his son was to die. Judaism was steeped in pagan worship. That was my point.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Judaism was steeped in pagan worship. That was my point.
When I was 10 years old, I used to think that was a valid point. But I am no longer 10 years old, and I can reason on my own, and I do not need or ALLOW someone to tell me what to think.

Jehovah thinks its relevant.
This is my favorite yet patently absurd argument. And since I am no longer 10 years old, and I have given this point considerable thought...about half a century, I no longer reason based on "milk."

But this is what you and WT assert...Jehovah allowed his only begotten son, to take the form of a man, lowering himself, the second most powerful entity in the Universe, to a "mans form", then allowed him to be falsely accused of blasphemy and convicted I might add, the most serious charge a Jew could be charged with, in fact on the level of sinning against God's Holy spirit, and IN FACT, that is what Jesus was praying about to have "this cup removed"

...then he was turned over to the pagan Romans. stripped, brutally tortured by being scourged, a method so horrific the whip used would actually tear the flesh OFF the BONE, so he had the flesh from his rib cage ripped off the bone, both from his front and back, then killed in one of the most brutal ways man can conceive of, yet you want people to believe Jehovah said, "nope this is where I draw the line, I won't allow Jesus to die on a cross." Not to mention the fact that the very beings that those pagans worshiped, Satan and his Demons were the ones behind killing Jesus, and Jehovah allowed them to have this authority over his only begotten son, but drew the line, "this is a bridge too far", "I will not allow him to die on a cross."

And let's be honest, the cross used to crucify people, had nothing to do with the pagan cross. The same way the letter "T" has nothing to do with the pagan cross.

So your argument is patently absurd and childish.

And what you are doing is exactly the same thing Christendom does, they have a belief or dogma they already have come to believe, and they desperately try to make scripture back up their already arrived at belief, rather than let the Bible define what you should believe.

Not a single scripture you quoted has anything to do whatsoever, with the manner in which Jesus died. Jesus was killed not only by pagans serving Satan, but he was brought to trial by the actual blasphemers, the very same people the Bible describes as being a "stiff necked people" as if somehow that fact bears out that Jesus could not have died on a cross, when the opposite is born out. Killed by pagans, and brought to trial by a rebellious people who constantly "returned to their vomit". If anything those scriptures bear out that the Jews were wicked deserving of their destruction which was brought by Jehovah in 70 C.E. because not only did they kill Jesus, they hung him on a pagan cross! LOL...now I am not saying he died on a cross, I am saying we do not know, we cannot know, and there is NOTHING in history or the Bible that tells us one way or the other.

And to wrap up how stupid this argument is, I'll ask you another question I know you will not answer. Which do you think Jehovah hates more, the fact these wicked people killed humiliated and tortured his son, or the pagan cross? That is what you and WT are asserting, that Jehovah allowed all these unspeakable things to befall his son, but he drew the line at the cross...I don't know how it can be any stupider! It can't!


And therefore demonstrably proven whether Jesus died on a stake or cross is irrelevant, because everything regarding his trial, torture and death, were far worse than any pagan cross.

So to summarize, Jehovah allowed Satan to use his pagan worshipers the Romans, and the rebellious, blasphemous Jewish religious leaders and many of the Jews, to humiliate, torture, falsely accuse his Son, and then murder him...but the cross, off limits!

Yep, I thought so, it cannot be any stupider!

@BroRando You really need to start thinking for yourself, and stop letting WT do your thinking for you! It's sad and pathetic!
 
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