Why are trinity people so obnoxious?

This whole thing has got me thinking about a couple of other issues,,,maybe more...I will keep thinking about it. But I was thinking about something I have mentioned a couple times as well, which is when Moses asked Jehovah to give him PROOF, Jehovah was sending him. And of course WT's favorite thing in the whole world is to compare anyone who is even mildly critical of WT and the Gb to Korah. The interesting thing here is Korah was NOT ALONE! He had a whole committee. And 250 supporters. In spite of the fact that Jehovah HAD provided Moses with exactly what he had asked for, namely indisputable proof Jehovah had sent him and used him! Through Moses Jehovah brought the ten plagues, and they had all witnessed Moses by means of Jehovah part the Red Sea.


OK, so now think about this. And before I say what I am going to say, keep this in your mind, the Bible calls Moses "the meekest man on the earth" and Jesus the "Greater Moses."

Not only has the GB NOT ASKED JEHOVAH to give them evidence he has sent them, Jehovah never appeared to them in the same way even remotely that he did Moses. Let me put it this way by way of contrast. Moses witnessed an inspired miracle, and Jehovah spoke to him from the burning bush. Moses did not have to have "faith" Jehovah choose him, he got it straight from the "horses mouth." Yet he still knowing human nature, did not want to presume that would or should be good enough for the Israelite's, when he related his eye witness experience. He wanted more. And clearly, that humility was why Jehovah chose him in the first place, oh and BTW, why it is recorded in the Bible.

I'm gonna take a little liberty here and say this, it was like Moses said to God, "this whole thing with this burning bush is all well and good, and you talking to me, that's awesome too, but if I am gonna go down to Egypt to try to free the Israelite's, what i am the most worried about is not how the Egyptians will receive me, it's how your own people will receive me, even though i am going there to help them and free them. So you're gonna have to do better than me telling them "Oh, take my word for it."


On the other hand, the GB and WT are literally saying, "Oh, believe me, just take my word for it." This is the contrast between the Gb and Moses! And the next thing we should be asking ourselves is why!!??? Why haven't the GB asked for proof, and better yet, why don't they humbly admit they don't have proof Jehovah is using them!!!??? Well the answer to that is obvious.

There is NO COMPARISON to Korah and Moses, with the GB and the R&F...none what so ever. Kind of reminds me of something. I don't think there will be any question who's done what at the beginning of the GT, when Jehovah stops it. The GB will be like Korah, with their committees of loyal minions, idolators that is, telling us all not to "believe our lying eyes", when Christ brothers begin to expose them for the Pharisees that they are. The GB are appointed via committee...NOT JEHOVAH appearing from a burning bush.

They are Korah and his conspirators. Which of course is where I was going with this. What if Moses had showed up and told them, "Just take my word for it." Oh, and keep in mind they don't even have the story of the "burning bush" or anything remotely similar.And then later Korah had rebelled? Yeah, well the reason the earth opened up and swallowed the entire mixed company, was because Jehovah HAD PROVIDED undisputed proof he had sent Moses. And the whole world was still talking about it 40 years later when they finally entered the promise land beginning with Jericho.


Well it's been 110 years since WT claimed Jehovah sent them, and what is the world saying about them? Can anyone say "lawsuits." And even worse, lawsuits for child sexual abuse. Wow, quite the contrast I would say!
 
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MickHewitt said:
The Lamb of God is now coming as leader of Jehovah's armies!
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I am sure you know I am worried about my brothers, They are the only ones left of that family. There were 7 of us now there is only the 3 of us. My older brother is so cock sure, and I know if I am not careful, if I say one wrong thing, that will be the end of it, and I will have no hope of injecting some sanity into his thinking. Part of the problem is I have not figured out how to do it, and more importantly if it's even possible. I don't think it's possible, but one way to fail for sure, is to not even try. I think I will try at some point, and it would have to be soon, and I am thinking I would even have to write an outline, so I can say the most important stuff first, because I will have one shot and it will be over.

And frankly, I have two choices at this point, pretend I agree with him on everything or at least let him think that, or tell him the truth. I am and have always led towards just telling the truth. Which for me since I know my family all to well and I know for example how my Father would feel, this comes down to idolatry, and their is no question they are guilty of idolatry. And that's how I would start that conversation. Because if I say anything else, instantly, "APOSTASY." So I think if and when I approach this, I will accuse him before he can accuse me!!!

Oh and I just thought of this...getting a notebook, and engaging with my brother, and taking notes as to how many times he brings up, "Jehovah's Organization", and the "GB", and then out and out calling it idolatry. (Later after I have compiled my notes into the most epic destruction of all time. ;))

Do you serve Jehovah or his Org.? And like he keeps saying to me, "You're not one of Jehovah's Witnesses if you are not in the ministry, you're just a 'Jehovah'", (yeah pretty cringe worthy, the dumbest thing I have ever heard a smart person say.) But I would say, you're not one of "Jehovah's Witnesses, you are a Watchtower Witness. You worship not Jehovah, but the WT, and the GB. The Israelite's thought they were worshiping Jehovah, they even called it a festival to Jehovah, when they created and worshiped the Golden Calf."

I am starting to think I have to do this, and soon. Otherwise whats the point that I know this, and I don't tell my own family?
 
Nomex said:
I have two choices at this point, pretend I agree with him on everything or at least let him think that, or tell him the truth.
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I made such a mess of my own family relations I would be a hypocrite to even try to give you some advice. You have shown us what devotion you have to your kin it is truly heartwarming Nomex. What a quagmire of explosives to be setting your foot upon. The Devil has made approaching the subject of life saving truths so difficult. Can only pray for your situation brother.
 
MickHewitt said:
What a quagmire of explosives to be setting your foot upon.
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That made me laugh brother...indeed. "a quagmire of explosives"...indeed! Thank you for the laugh! People don't realize...and good for them that they don't, how important gallows humor is, and how necessary it is. A good laugh is essential. I can read that over and over again and still laugh. Thank you and well done!
 
Nomex said:
That made me laugh brother...indeed. "a quagmire of explosives"...indeed! Thank you for the laugh! People don't realize...and good for them that they don't, how important gallows humor is, and how necessary it is. A good laugh is essential. I can read that over and over again and still laugh. Thank you and well done!
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Your welcome; So pleased your spirit is lifted.
 
Nomex said:
Today is the one month anniversary of my Mom dying. I tried to call my little brother, but he's been having trouble with his phone, I finally gave up after about 6-8 trys including calling his home phone and leaving a message. So as a result I had to call my older brother. (This post is not about the actual reason for making my call, in case anyone get;'s confused...lol.) When I talk to him, I have to really listen before I speak. He is smarter than my little brother. Or maybe just more manipulative.

Any way, he's of course concentrating on his version of what it means to serve Jehovah. That is to say WT's version. I don't know that I will ever say this to him, but maybe I will over time as I gather more information now that i see things completely differently. But it was the same old tired, "Jehovah's Organization" has done this done that etc, and how fortunate we are to have it, and then he goes on and on about any criticism is "apostate." And no he didn't word it that way. Like all passive aggressive strategies they never come out and say what they mean.

I have said this before but I am going to say it again, hopefully with some added insight. All this nonsense about "Jehovah's Organization, ignores of course that his "organization" killed Jesus. But what struck me this evening, as he was defending the GB, was this idea that an "organization" is what Jehovah uses. Did Jehovah use a "committee" assigned and approved by any group of men, or anything even remotely resembling such nonsense? No not once.

The best example of course is Jesus. The "GB" which was every much the "GB of the Jews as the Apostles were the GB of the Christians, rejected Jesus entirely. Of course they killed him. But likewise Jehovah did not send a "committee", to condemn Jezebel. In fact Elijah thought he was the last worshiper of Jehovah left on earth. Jehovah did not send a "committee" to warn the Jews about the destruction of Israel by the Babylonians. In fact they received Jeremiah in exactly the same way you would expect JW's to receive anyone who went against the GB. It really gives us insight into how this is all happening the way it is. It is the imperfect "human nature" we find ourselves in, in this system.

It is not "rejecting Jehovah" if you see something wrong with "Jehovah's Organization" and you say it out loud. If you actually do that, you are in the company of a man like Jeremiah, and dare I say Jesus, himself.

Sure Jehovah may use an origination to further his purpose, but Satan of course will do everything he can to infiltrate that "organization". And JW's like my my brother will go out of their way to claim, "that could never happen to Jehovah's Organization." Of course they mean the Organization ruled and controlled by WT, but let's not let facts get in the way.

But the whole point of this delusion, that is to say, "Jehovah wouldn't allow that", "this is Jehovah's Origination" The entire thing is predicated on the delusion, that Christ returned in 1914 and he is in control. Frankly if Jesus is in control of WT, he would have to be on Satan's side. Which of course is the point. Jesus is NOT directing this Org. That does not mean they have not USED WT! They used the Jews! No different, none what so ever. But they are not and have NEVER controlled what people do!


And let's just say what these people really think, they say this crap because they think the GB are better than the rest of us. 100% demonic! My brother actually used as an example of "apostasy leanings" by my younger brother, things like, "the GB are imperfect." Yeah he actually said that! Who does my brother actually worship?

It is exhausting. But with someone who thinks he's this smart, there isn't really any hope of reaching him. It is going to take Jesus himself to tell him, "Nope, the GB are actually Apostates", sadly I doubt that is going to happen.

I mean it is maddening. the first thing "Jehovah's Organization" did after being freed from Egypt was make a Golden Calf, which was NOT even idolatry in the sense we normally think of it. They said they were having a "festival to Jehovah." They used the calf to represent Jehovah. They were not in their minds worshiping an image, or an idol, they were worshiping Jehovah! WT has 100% become the modern day "golden calf"!!!!!

Think about this. The sin of the Israelite's was not that they made an image of a Golden Calf to represent some false god. The sin was that they made a golden calf to represent their worship to Jehovah! And then bowed down to that image. An image they made which they thought they could use to direct their worship to God. To Jehovah.

Calling anyone "apostate" because they say anything negative about WT of the GB in fact makes you guilty of the very same crime Jehovah found those worshiping the Golden Calf, because it was idolatry. Because defending "Jehovah's Organization" is NOT defending Jehovah, it is actually idolatry!
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Lucas 9;39-Y Jesús dijo: “Para [este] juicio he venido a este mundo: para que los que no ven, vean, y los que ven, queden ciegos”. 40 Aquellos de los fariseos que estaban con él oyeron estas cosas, y le dijeron: “Nosotros no somos ciegos también, ¿verdad?”. 41 Jesús les dijo: “Si fueran ciegos, no tendrían pecado. Pero ahora ustedes dicen: ‘Vemos’. Su pecado permanece”.
 
Ana said:
Lucas 9;39-Y Jesús dijo: “Para [este] juicio he venido a este mundo: para que los que no ven, vean, y los que ven, queden ciegos”. 40 Aquellos de los fariseos que estaban con él oyeron estas cosas, y le dijeron: “Nosotros no somos ciegos también, ¿verdad?”. 41 Jesús les dijo: “Si fueran ciegos, no tendrían pecado. Pero ahora ustedes dicen: ‘Vemos’. Su pecado permanece”.
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Otro texto para los que quieren obedecer a hombres aunque pidan cosas extrañas: juan 10:5- A un extraño de ningún modo seguirán, sino que huirán de él, porque no conocen la voz de los extraños.” 6 Jesús les habló esta comparación; pero ellos no sabían lo que querían decir las cosas que les hablaba.
 
The trinity saga continues. You can see the sad face somebody expressed. No actual argument from anyone yet. They're going to be a whole lot more sad when they realize they've basically been worshiping a false god and fighting against the true God their whole lives. They may even be as surprised as JWs when they find out they've been idolaters too. One thing is for certain. If irony were made of strawberries there would be smoothies for everyone.

trinity people sad.png
 
Jahrule said:
The trinity saga continues. You can see the sad face somebody expressed. No actual argument from anyone yet. They're going to be a whole lot more sad when they realize they've basically been worshiping a false god and fighting against the true God their whole lives. They may even be as surprised as JWs when they find out they've been idolaters too. One thing is for certain. If irony were made of strawberries there would be smoothies for everyone.

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The word used is proskyneō

προσκυνέω

to do reverence, or homage by kissing the hand; in NT to do reverence or homage by prostration, Mt. 2:2, 8, 11; 20:20; Lk. 4:7; 24:52; to pay divine homage, worship, adore, Mt. 4:10; Jn. 4:20, 21; Heb. 1:6; to bow one's self in adoration, Heb. 11:21
www.billmounce.com www.billmounce.com

It can mean worship but it can also mean "do obesience to", "bow before", "show respect" as to a King. I believe even Robert missed that in one of his articles. proskyneō doesn't always mean worship. It depends on context. So no, I don't believe the angels ever told anyone to "worship" Jesus. They told them to bow before him as earth's new king.

Look at the example at Revelation 3:9. So the anointed are to be worshipped? Of course not. Context...it's very important. IMO, only Jehovah is to be worshipped.
 
kirmmy said:
The word used is proskyneō

προσκυνέω

to do reverence, or homage by kissing the hand; in NT to do reverence or homage by prostration, Mt. 2:2, 8, 11; 20:20; Lk. 4:7; 24:52; to pay divine homage, worship, adore, Mt. 4:10; Jn. 4:20, 21; Heb. 1:6; to bow one's self in adoration, Heb. 11:21
www.billmounce.com www.billmounce.com

It can mean worship but it can also mean "do obesience to", "bow before", "show respect" as to a King. I believe even Robert missed that in one of his articles. proskyneō doesn't always mean worship. It depends on context. So no, I don't believe the angels ever told anyone to "worship" Jesus. They told them to bow before him as earth's new king.

Look at the example at Revelation 3:9. So the anointed are to be worshipped? Of course not. Context...it's very important. IMO, only Jehovah is to be worshipped.
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People get hung up on the word worship. Bow, respect, obedience, admiration, whatever. The problem is people direct that stuff to the wrong place. People admire celebrities, money, power. Even if it's small, it's still a form of worship, and when misplaced it is wrong. God considered very tiny acts to be forms of worship in ancient times, like bowing or just throwing incense into a fire. People misplace their trust, devotion, etc. That's where it becomes a problem. I see no problem with devotion to Christ when it is mandated by Jah.

At the end of the day, that is Jehovah's will. God provisionally gave Christ his throne because he earned it. If anyone could earn that right from God it would be Christ. Jesus is a direct copy of Jah. Worship placed on him, by divine ordnance, still serves God's will. Jesus in essence will be my king, my eternal father, not because he is Jah, but because of what he did. Even if it's not exactly the same thing, it's still the will of our heavenly father that the Christ is our master. In fact, without Christ we could not get back to the father at all, so it's kind of necessary to return to a perfect state. Jesus is almost like humanity's training wheels. Without him we would fall before getting back to God. Everything Jehovah is doing is necessary. God knows exactly what he is doing. Trinity people fail to grasp this fact.
 
If you want to see obnoxious there is a fella called Sam Shamoun on youtube.
He debates the trinity, has a great memory, knows a lot of scripture and is rather abusive to his victims.
There have been a few witnesses on there, they of course dont get anywhere, because he literally bullies them into submission.
He is also one of the Jesus is Jehovah crowd, and even argues that Jehovah appeared to people as a flesh and blood man.
You have to see it to believe how bad this jumped up egotist is.
What i find hard to believe is how many people follow him and support him in his so called ministry.
I dont even try to argue with a trinitarian, i state what i believe, tell them that i know all the proof texts, whether from a Catholic, protestant, or evangelical perspective and that i am not going to have a back and forth with them.
As others have stated in the comments here, they cannot be shaken from their falsehoods.
 
steve said:
If you want to see obnoxious there is a fella called Sam Shamoun on youtube.
He debates the trinity, has a great memory, knows a lot of scripture and is rather abusive to his victims.
There have been a few witnesses on there, they of course dont get anywhere, because he literally bullies them into submission.
He is also one of the Jesus is Jehovah crowd, and even argues that Jehovah appeared to people as a flesh and blood man.
You have to see it to believe how bad this jumped up egotist is.
What i find hard to believe is how many people follow him and support him in his so called ministry.
I dont even try to argue with a trinitarian, i state what i believe, tell them that i know all the proof texts, whether from a Catholic, protestant, or evangelical perspective and that i am not going to have a back and forth with them.
As others have stated in the comments here, they cannot be shaken from their falsehoods.
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I'm familiar with Sam. He's nuttier than a bowl of boiled peanuts. He has the brain of a lobotomized fruit gnat.
 
I appreciate Sam's zealousness but he has a mental block when it comes to the Trinity discussion. His brain turns off and he goes onto say ad hominem insults, calling them heretics, despite how stupid that seems. They called Jesus Christ a herectic too. How embarrassing! Yet these fools like Sam have not learned that lesson.
 
steve said:
If you want to see obnoxious there is a fella called Sam Shamoun on youtube.
He debates the trinity, has a great memory, knows a lot of scripture and is rather abusive to his victims.
There have been a few witnesses on there, they of course dont get anywhere, because he literally bullies them into submission.
He is also one of the Jesus is Jehovah crowd, and even argues that Jehovah appeared to people as a flesh and blood man.
You have to see it to believe how bad this jumped up egotist is.
What i find hard to believe is how many people follow him and support him in his so called ministry.
I dont even try to argue with a trinitarian, i state what i believe, tell them that i know all the proof texts, whether from a Catholic, protestant, or evangelical perspective and that i am not going to have a back and forth with them.
As others have stated in the comments here, they cannot be shaken from their falsehoods.
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Trying to convince someone God and Jesus aren’t part of a Trinity, which by the way is a duo not three…I guess they teach 1+1=3 as truth as well. To argue with a trinitarian reminds me of what the apostle Paul of us who do: “For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ;” —2 Corinthians 10:4,5

The teaching of the Trinity is a “strongly entrenched” teaching.
 
Ms_ladyblue said:
Trying to convince someone God and Jesus aren’t part of a Trinity, which by the way is a duo not three…I guess they teach 1+1=3 as truth as well. To argue with a trinitarian reminds me of what the apostle Paul of us who do: “For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ;” —2 Corinthians 10:4,5

The teaching of the Trinity is a “strongly entrenched” teaching.
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Yeah its more of a twinity than a trinity.
 
I watch Michael Knowles from the Daily Wire sometimes. He's a Catholic conservative host. He said that even trying to understand the Trinity is a heresy in itself. Compare the Trinity to some kind of example like a modulism belief in it, such as a comparison to H20 is seen as part of this. According to him, we as imperfect humans aren't meant to understand the Trinity. It's incredibly ridiculous.

Jehovah wants us to know both him and his son. Trying to understand God to them is a heresy, because if you don't believe in Trinity it's like saying you don't believe in God. This goes against Bible teaching and it's why trinitarian's such as Michael will say. "Lord Jesus, didn't we proclaim your name and preach to others about you and your teachings?" And Jesus Christ will say to them. "Because you don't understand the Father, you don't understand me. Get away from me you workers of lawlessness." Trinitarian's hearing that judgement will grind their teeth in agony. Not understanding Jehovah and Jesus Christ as separate beings just like any other father and son. Disqualifies them for getting saved and will die along with other enemies of God at Armageddon.
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
A wonderful idea Jahrule. I wonder if we can make an AI Robert Bot to hound the GB . NON-STOP Robert Rebuke AI Bot churning out Apostate Truths. It could be linked to their switchboard too, phoning non stop to argue with the duty elder about everything they publish. Non-stop Robert 24 hours a day….makes you think……🤣
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Good idea Barn...Full throttle!!! Like a humid hot summer day where knats are diving into your eyes and ears...Bzzzzzz!
 
So I visited two coworkers at an evangelical church last Sunday it was like forty percent concert sixty percent sermon the sermon ninety five percent motivational speaking five percent scripture and theology and it was all Jesus worship the father and holy spirit were mentioned only one time in an hour and forty five minutes and that was them just mentioned in the lyrics of a song. I had a conversation with one of the coworkers today and she was very modalist trinitarian annoyed her brother is involved in some Hebrew roots movement sacred name movement group that uses the Yahuah rendering of the tetragrammaton these people want to simply worship Jesus without any reminder of the fathers existence even within any kind of trinitarian framework I hate to say it but their trinitarianism is worse than Catholics at least the Catholics seem against that level of modalism even though they are more modalist than the orthodox. And the guy that gave the sermon invoked that dual nature god-man christology nonsense that makes trinitarianism even more multiple personality nonsense in going on about how it was Jesus human nature that was all remove this cup from me etc
 
steve said:
If you want to see obnoxious there is a fella called Sam Shamoun on youtube.
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This guy literally inspired my understanding that all these people do is search out the scriptures to try to find evidence of what they already believe rather than search out the scriptures for the truth. All religions do it even the WT for their 1914 doctrine. But this guy is particularly disgusting. It's was people like this that Jesus said, "in that day I will say I never knew you, get away from me you workers of lawlessness."
 
Nomex said:
I am sure you know I am worried about my brothers, They are the only ones left of that family. There were 7 of us now there is only the 3 of us. My older brother is so cock sure, and I know if I am not careful, if I say one wrong thing, that will be the end of it, and I will have no hope of injecting some sanity into his thoughts. Part of the problem is I have not figured out how to do it, and more importantly if it's even possible. I don't think it's possible, but one way to fail for sure, is to not even try. I think I will try at some point, and it would have to be soon, and I am thinking I would even have to write an outline, so I can say the most important stuff first, because I will have one shot and it will be over.

And frankly, I have two choices at this point, pretend I agree with him on everything or at least let him think that, or tell him the truth. I am and have always led towards just telling the truth. Which for me since I know my familybrr all to well and I know for example how my Father would feel, this comes down to idolatry, and their is no question they are guilty of idolatry. And that's how I would start that conversation. Because if I say anything else, instantly, "APOSTASY." So I think if and when I approach this, I will accuse him before he can accuse me!
Oh and I just thought of this...getting a notebook, and engaging with my brother, and t sa notes as to how many times he brings up, "Jehovah's Organization", and the "GB", and then out and out calling it idolatry. (Later after I have compiled my notes into the most epic destruction of all time. ;))

Do you serve Jehovah or his Organization? And like he keeps saying to me, "You're not one of Jehovah's Witnesses if you are not in the ministry, you're just a 'Jehovah'", (yeah pretty cringe worthy, the dumbest thing I have ever heard a smart person say.) But I would say, you're not one of "Jehovah's Witnesses, you are a Watchtower Witness. You worship not Jehovah, but the WT, and the GB. The SIsraelite's thought they were worshiping Jehovah, they even called it a festival to Jehovah, when they created and worshiped the Golden Calf."

I am starting to think I have to do this, and soon. Otherwise what's the point that I know this, and I don't tell my own family?
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Strange and almost impossible with family and a shame..We all know Jesus said his family were the ones that did Jehovah's will. When Jesus fleshly brothers asked him if he were going to the festival in Jerusalem, Jesus said no, then later he went in secret. Of all Jesus' family, James, his half-brother is the only one mentioned that followed Jesus.
My family is a nightmare to figure out and of 5 of us kIds, none of them talk to me, my brother being a Jw himself.. But my sister who was wrongfully df'd meets with me twice a week and we study the Bible together now..She loves Jehovah and has moved on from all the things the WT did to her to ruin her life..
 
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CathiiD'Anthonii said:
Strange and almost impossible with family and a shame..We all know Jesus said his family were the ones that did Jehovah's will. When Jesus fleshly brothers asked him if he were going to the festival in Jerusalem, Jesus said no, then later he went in secret. Of all Jesus' family, James, his half-brother is the only one mentioned that followed Jesus.
My family is a nightmare to figure out and of 5 of us kIds, none of them talk to me, my brother being a Jw himself.. But my sister who was wrongfully df'd meets with me twice a week and we study the Bible together now..She loves Jehovah and has moved on from all the things the WT did to her to ruin her life..
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Eusbesius church history gives us a look into what happened to Jesus relatives.

Chapter 23. The Martyrdom of James, who was called the Brother of the Lord.
1. But after Paul, in consequence of his appeal to Cæsar, had been sent to Rome by Festus, the Jews, being frustrated in their hope of entrapping him by the snares which they had laid for him, turned against James, the brother of the Lord, to whom the episcopal seat at Jerusalem had been entrusted by the apostles. The following daring measures were undertaken by them against him.

2. Leading him into their midst they demanded of him that he should renounce faith in Christ in the presence of all the people. But, contrary to the opinion of all, with a clear voice, and with greater boldness than they had anticipated, he spoke out before the whole multitude and confessed that our Saviour and Lord Jesus is the Son of God. But they were unable to bear longer the testimony of the man who, on account of the excellence of ascetic virtue and of piety which he exhibited in his life, was esteemed by all as the most just of men, and consequently they slew him. Opportunity for this deed of violence was furnished by the prevailing anarchy, which was caused by the fact that Festus had died just at this time in Judea, and that the province was thus without a governor and head.

3. The manner of James' death has been already indicated by the above-quoted words of Clement, who records that he was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple, and was beaten to death with a club. But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his Memoirs. He writes as follows:

4. James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called the Just by all from the time of our Saviour to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of James.

5. He was holy from his mother's womb; and he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head; he did not anoint himself with oil, and he did not use the bath.

6. He alone was permitted to enter into the holy place; for he wore not woolen but linen garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple, and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel, in consequence of his constantly bending them in his worship of God, and asking forgiveness for the people.

7. Because of his exceeding great justice he was called the Just, and Oblias, which signifies in Greek, 'Bulwark of the people' and 'Justice,' in accordance with what the prophets declare concerning him.

8. Now some of the seven sects, which existed among the people and which have been mentioned by me in the Memoirs, asked him, 'What is the gate of Jesus?' and he replied that he was the Saviour.

9. On account of these words some believed that Jesus is the Christ. But the sects mentioned above did not believe either in a resurrection or in one's coming to give to every man according to his works. But as many as believed did so on account of James.

10. Therefore when many even of the rulers believed, there was a commotion among the Jews and Scribes and Pharisees, who said that there was danger that the whole people would be looking for Jesus as the Christ. Coming therefore in a body to James they said, 'We entreat you, restrain the people; for they are gone astray in regard to Jesus, as if he were the Christ. We entreat you to persuade all that have come to the feast of the Passover concerning Jesus; for we all have confidence in you. For we bear you witness, as do all the people, that you are just, and do not respect persons. Matthew 22:16

11. Therefore, persuade the multitude not to be led astray concerning Jesus. For the whole people, and all of us also, have confidence in you. Stand therefore upon the pinnacle of the temple, that from that high position you may be clearly seen, and that your words may be readily heard by all the people. For all the tribes, with the Gentiles also, have come together on account of the Passover.'

12. The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: 'You just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus.'

13. And he answered with a loud voice, 'Why do you ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sits in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.'

14. And when many were fully convinced and gloried in the testimony of James, and said, 'Hosanna to the Son of David,' these same Scribes and Pharisees said again to one another, 'We have done badly in supplying such testimony to Jesus. But let us go up and throw him down, in order that they may be afraid to believe him.'

15. And they cried out, saying, 'Oh! Oh! The just man is also in error.' And they fulfilled the Scripture written in Isaiah, 'Let us take away the just man, because he is troublesome to us: therefore they shall eat the fruit of their doings.'

16. So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, 'Let us stone James the Just.' And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said, 'I entreat you, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.' Luke 23:34

17. And while they were thus stoning him one of the priests of the sons of Rechab, the son of the Rechabites, who are mentioned by Jeremiah the prophet, cried out, saying, 'Stop. What are you doing? The just one prays for you.'

18. And one of them, who was a fuller, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom. And they buried him on the spot, by the temple, and his monument still remains by the temple. He became a true witness, both to Jews and Greeks, that Jesus is the Christ. And immediately Vespasian besieged them.
 
Chapter 19. Domitian commands the Descendants of David to be slain.
But when this same Domitian had commanded that the descendants of David should be slain, an ancient tradition says that some of the heretics brought accusation against the descendants of Jude (said to have been a brother of the Saviour according to the flesh), on the ground that they were of the lineage of David and were related to Christ himself. Hegesippus relates these facts in the following words.

Chapter 20. The Relatives of our Saviour.
1. Of the family of the Lord there were still living the grandchildren of Jude, who is said to have been the Lord's brother according to the flesh.

2. Information was given that they belonged to the family of David, and they were brought to the Emperor Domitian by the Evocatus. For Domitian feared the coming of Christ as Herod also had feared it. And he asked them if they were descendants of David, and they confessed that they were. Then he asked them how much property they had, or how much money they owned. And both of them answered that they had only nine thousand denarii, half of which belonged to each of them.

4. And this property did not consist of silver, but of a piece of land which contained only thirty-nine acres, and from which they raised their taxes and supported themselves by their own labor.

5. Then they showed their hands, exhibiting the hardness of their bodies and the callousness produced upon their hands by continuous toil as evidence of their own labor.

6. And when they were asked concerning Christ and his kingdom, of what sort it was and where and when it was to appear, they answered that it was not a temporal nor an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly and angelic one, which would appear at the end of the world, when he should come in glory to judge the quick and the dead, and to give unto every one according to his works.

7. Upon hearing this, Domitian did not pass judgment against them, but, despising them as of no account, he let them go, and by a decree put a stop to the persecution of the Church.

8. But when they were released they ruled the churches because they were witnesses and were also relatives of the Lord. And peace being established, they lived until the time of Trajan. These things are related by Hegesippus.

Chapter 32. Symeon, Bishop of Jerusalem, suffers Martyrdom.​

1. It is reported that after the age of Nero and Domitian, under the emperor whose times we are now recording, a persecution was stirred up against us in certain cities in consequence of a popular uprising. In this persecution we have understood that Symeon, the son of Clopas, who, as we have shown, was the second bishop of the church of Jerusalem, suffered martyrdom.

2. Hegesippus, whose words we have already quoted in various places, is a witness to this fact also. Speaking of certain heretics he adds that Symeon was accused by them at this time; and since it was clear that he was a Christian, he was tortured in various ways for many days, and astonished even the judge himself and his attendants in the highest degree, and finally he suffered a death similar to that of our Lord.

3. But there is nothing like hearing the historian himself, who writes as follows: Certain of these heretics brought accusation against Symeon, the son of Clopas, on the ground that he was a descendant of David and a Christian; and thus he suffered martyrdom, at the age of one hundred and twenty years, while Trajan was emperor and Atticus governor.

4. And the same writer says that his accusers also, when search was made for the descendants of David, were arrested as belonging to that family. And it might be reasonably assumed that Symeon was one of those that saw and heard the Lord, judging from the length of his life, and from the fact that the Gospel makes mention of Mary, the wife of Clopas, who was the father of Symeon, as has been already shown.

5. The same historian says that there were also others, descended from one of the so-called brothers of the Saviour, whose name was Judas, who, after they had borne testimony before Domitian, as has been already recorded, in behalf of faith in Christ, lived until the same reign.

6. He writes as follows: They came, therefore, and took the lead of every church as witnesses and as relatives of the Lord. And profound peace being established in every church, they remained until the reign of the Emperor Trajan, and until the above-mentioned Symeon, son of Clopas, an uncle of the Lord, was informed against by the heretics, and was himself in like manner accused for the same cause before the governor Atticus. And after being tortured for many days he suffered martyrdom, and all, including even the proconsul, marveled that, at the age of one hundred and twenty years, he could endure so much. And orders were given that he should be crucified.
 
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