Wisdom of God

alan ford

Well-known member
O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and beyond tracing out his ways are! Romans 11:33

I was thinking how Satan deceived Eve by saying "you will be like God, knowing good and bad” mixing truth with lies and then it occured to me how Jehovah, in his wisdom, turned the whole situation to his (and our) benefit. Even though eating of the fruit introduced sin and robbed us of life, ultimately it enabled us to become even more than what we were created. It opened the way for 144000 to actually become exactly as Gods, having life in themselves. This is just so mindblowing to me.

Do you have any examples of God's wisdom to share?
 

SusanB

Well-known member
As imperfect humans we obviously need to find out for ourselves that many things we are warned about ARE ACTUALLY bad for us and Jehovah in his infinite wisdom lets us come to that conclusion on our own if we seek truth. At the same time, he makes the remedy known.

Proverbs 1:23: “Respond to my reproof. Then I will pour out my spirit for you; I will make my words known to you.”
 

alan ford

Well-known member
As imperfect humans we obviously need to find out for ourselves that many things we are warned about ARE ACTUALLY bad for us and Jehovah in his infinite wisdom lets us come to that conclusion on our own if we seek truth. At the same time, he makes the remedy known.

Proverbs 1:23: “Respond to my reproof. Then I will pour out my spirit for you; I will make my words known to you.”
Yeah, same as the outcome with forbidden fruit. It was actually bad because it caused loss of relationship with our Father, death and suffering of countless humans since Eden. All of that because Eve wanted to be like God, but for sefish reasons. The 144 000 on the other hand are humble and blameless in sight of our God, regarding themselves as slaves and because of those qualities they are rewarded with much more than Eve and even Satan could ever hope for.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
mixing truth with lies
I don't pretend to know everything, but what I am good at is pointing out things most people haven't thought of, I think it is debatable that there was any truth in what Satan said, but that's not what I want to point out,
It opened the way for 144000 to actually become exactly as Gods, having life in themselves.

We know that God's purposes remained unchanged, so I think the reality is what we do not know far exceeds any assumption of what we think we know. Sure the 1444,000's role is a loving provision, but what is their role after the thousand year reign? What is Jesus role? "God will be all things to everyone!" First of all, they will NOT be equal to Jehovah. Now I am not saying that's what you mean, but I do think that it is very likely, what the 1444,000 will become, was part of God's purpose even before Satan's rebellion. No I don't have any scripture I can use to back that up, it's just a feeling. I think God's purpose for creation, that is to say intelligent creation, is for all of us to evolve to a higher plane. He created the Universe for a reason, not just to take up space. What has happened these last 6,000 years has just been a hiccup.


The problem I think Satan has was he's so arrogant and looked down on humanity with such contempt, and knew God's plan for us, he became consumed with that jealously. Perhaps the 144,000 is an acceleration of that plan, I don't know, who knows? But I think it's safe to say, it was impossible for Satan to change God's purpose, therefore, perhaps the 144,000 was already part of Jehovah's purpose.

Then again, maybe I am completely wrong. The fact remains, there is so much we do not know, and trying to make scriptures make sense out of what we think to be true is what WT is very much guilty of.

Again, I am not saying that is what you are doing, all I am saying is this is so much bigger than any of us, and I think what we find out to be true when Jehovah reveals it, will be a surprise to all of us, just like it was to Jesus Apostles.
 

alan ford

Well-known member
We know that God's purposes remained unchanged
Of course. I am also aware that there ar many ways to achieve his purpose. He is almighty and he can have his purpose fulfilled in countless ways.

perhaps the 144,000 was already part of Jehovah's purpose.
I'm not sure about this. 144 000 relates directly to tribes of Israel. 12 000 out of each of 12 tribes (symbolic/spiritual but still), which wouldn't even exist had there been no rebellion.
Regarding being like Gods, I don't think it means being equal with Jehovah, but in the same way Jesus is like God. After all, they will have life in themselves, same as Jesus after his resurrection. None of this changes Jehovah's purpose. His will, will be done.
So my word that goes out of my mouth will be.
It will not return to me without results,
But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight,
And it will have sure success in what I send it to do.
Isaiah 55:11

We don't know all the details of God's plan but we can at least try to imagine, but even that might not be enough because everything will be made new.
But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:9,10
 

Nomex

Well-known member
I'm not sure about this.
Yeah, like I said,
maybe I am completely wrong.
and...
I think what we find out to be true when Jehovah reveals it, will be a surprise to all of us,
what I am talking about is the eventual evolution of humans...not the literal 144,000 number...and again maybe I am completely wrong...but eternity has an infinite number of possibilities. :p
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Yeah, I don't disagree. I just had an a-ha moment when I was thinking about this which made me appreciate God's wisdom even more. I'd still like to see if anyone else had some of those moments and post them here.
I wasn't trying to hi-jack the thread, there are plenty of people here who have a LOT of insight on a LOT! ;)
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Ok, how about this..."God's Wisdom":

He created a being so powerful, he created everything else, both in the physical realm and spiritual, stars, planets, Universes, you name it, and then when he came to the earth, and his human brain is so wonderful, it could retain that knowledge and experience and ability! Truly incomprehensible and indeed we are wonderfully made!!!
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
I think holography helps us to understand Jesus unique likeness to Jehovah. Like a small slice of a holographic film etc

As for the 144,000 being all part of the plan Ephesians 1:1-14 ESV says

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
 

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alan ford

Well-known member
As for the 144,000 being all part of the plan
How do you read this?

In verse 4 it says
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him
My question would be, is this regarding the new world or the present one? I'm leaning towards the former because vs 7 speaks of redemption, which wasn't necessary prior to the rebellion.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
How do you read this?

In verse 4 it says

My question would be, is this regarding the new world or the present one? I'm leaning towards the former because vs 7 speaks of redemption, which wasn't necessary prior to the rebellion.
So this is my point where it says, "he choose us before the founding of the world"...clearly this is before the rebellion! This opens up the whole "predestination fallacy." Jehovah would not have created two humans who were predestined to sin, choosing before the founding of the world is a plan he had in place before creating humans which included both the possibility that they would or would not sin!
 

alan ford

Well-known member
So this is my point where it says, "he choose us before the founding of the world"...clearly this is before the rebellion! This opens up the whole "predestination fallacy." Jehovah would not have created two humans who were predestined to sin, choosing before the founding of the world is a plan he had in place before creating humans which included both the possibility that they would or would not sin!
That makes sense, with Jehovah being omnipotent/omniscient. Like he sees all the possible outcomes at the same time, himself being outside of time.
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
How do you read this?

In verse 4 it says

My question would be, is this regarding the new world or the present one? I'm leaning towards the former because vs 7 speaks of redemption, which wasn't necessary prior to the rebellion.
I fully admit I could be wrong but I don't align with watchtower opinion on founding of the world given Jesus references his own relationship with Jehovah as before the founding of the kosmos. I believe the use of the term refers to way back to the beginning given Jehovah and Jesus founded the literal kosmos in genesis 1.

So this is my point where it says, "he choose us before the founding of the world"...clearly this is before the rebellion! This opens up the whole "predestination fallacy." Jehovah would not have created two humans who were predestined to sin, choosing before the founding of the world is a plan he had in place before creating humans which included both the possibility that they would or would not sin!
I don't think anyone's implied any individual annointed were predestined all I'm saying is I just presently think independent of any awareness of the son's and of the rebellion Jehovah always intended for there to be the 144k bride of Christ at some point. We are a creation that going by Proverbs Jesus was especially fond of yet we were made a little lower than elohim that tells me Jehovah put more thought into mankind than we might initially think.
 
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