Would you like to be anointed?

[Posstot]

No not necessarily Posstot
the coming along side has a specific purpose with regard to the chosen ones, Robert explains how the vision of the transfiguration is directly related to the coming alongside. it seems perfectly reasonable and scriptural to me that the Chosen ones will be ministered to By Christ in a special way,in preperation for a final witness.
A visible presence to those who belong to Christ that has an effect that empowers themselves to give a visible final witness the like of mankind has never before experienced.
i assume you have read What Robert has wrote on this subject? if not i suggest you do and give it some consideration.
However i do understand your concern that scripture tells us that many will be proclaimimg Christ has come and is in "the inner chambers" etc and obviously that will occurr
However when the genuine coming alongside takes places there will be no doubt in the minds of the remnant of anointed ones because they will see Christ in his glory and reflect that in their own faces and those who wait for these things to occur will surely not fail to recognise them as fulfillment of scripture.
john

Robert seems to equate the sword stroke with the great tribulation, whereupon Jesus returns on the clouds of heaven; but he does not seem to agree that 'all the tribes of the earth' will see Him then; hence, we agree on Christ's coming after the end of the great tribulation.

However, I see the great tribulation as separate from, and after the sword stroke, when the recovered beast tramples on, and desolates Christianity, whereupon Jesus returns to take the chosen ones to heaven and start Armageddon on the beast worshiping world.

If the sword stroke is not the great tribulation on 'Christendom,' which therefore survives intact, only to enter into a covenant with the reviving beast for 7 years, as Da 9:26,27 seems to indicate, then, when the fully revived beast causes the daily sacrifice to cease half way through the 7 year long 70th 'week,' it will cause 'all the earth to follow it with admiration,' as it then gets rid of 'divisive' Christianity and institutes the worship of itself and its image as the only allowed religion in the 'global village.'

 

[Posstot]

The anointed are not going to be killed by the wild beast before Christ appears. but after Jesus has arrived

Impossible and unscriptural, because of what Paul's words imply here: "This takes into account that it is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, in a flaming fire, as He brings vengeance upon those who do not know God."

'Relief' does not sound like being killed by the wild beast to me, which therefore has to happen prior to His coming.

Rapture simply means 'the transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven, by supernatural means,' and is, for instance, what Paul in 1 Thes 4:17 describes, where the word derives from the Latin verb 'Rapere,' meaning 'to carry off,' or 'to catch up.'

This is what scripture actually teaches; disbelieve it at your own peril.

 

[Robert194972]

Impossible and unscriptural, because of what Paul's words imply here: "This takes into account that it is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, in a flaming fire, as He brings vengeance upon those who do not know God."

'Relief' does not sound like being killed by the wild beast to me, which therefore has to happen prior to His coming.

Rapture simply means 'the transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven, by supernatural means,' and is, for instance, what Paul in 1 Thes 4:17 describes, where the word derives from the Latin verb 'Rapere,' meaning 'to carry off,' or 'to catch up.'

This is what scripture actually teaches; disbelieve it at your own peril.

The anointed are not killed before they witness the Christ. Luke-12:37. They are killed after they complete their final witness to the nations. Rev-11:7. Lifted off the earth and transformed in the blink of an eye, from flesh to spirit in the process? Rapture sorry not happening. Interesting thoughts but.

 

[Joel]

"Happy are those slaves whom the master on coming finds watching! Truly I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them." - Luke 12:37. Often the problem is what I have outlined briefly in my post: Reasoning from the Scriptures

 

[Robert194972]

i do not think that the "rest of creation" will see Christ with their literal sight but the coming of the kingdom of God is surely going to have a bigger impact than stirring curiosity in mankind in general?
I fully agree that Robert king is right in his understanding of the visible presence, the manifestation of Christ to his chosen ones and to judge the house of God and appoint the sons of the Kingdom a mission of a final witness to mankind.
however IMO
this will be mankinds last chance to repent ( a bit like the ninevites and jonah) but most will not, indeed we are told that they rejoice at the deaths of the remnant of the chosen ones at the hand of the beast rev 11

the coming of Christ in all his glory with all his angels is a later and different event but closely coupled to the ascension of the witnesses into heaven,
imo scripture show that mankind will not only be aware of this event because it will be visible and audible and global they will be also be terrified and try to hide because they will fully understand what is happening (the 2 witnessess had told them to repent)
the Return of Christ and His Kingdom will arrive and will destroy all earthly government rulerships, Daniel 2:44
i believe that scripture is clear, they will see and hear, and understand what is happening Matthew 24:30,31

Thank you for your thoughts. But you are aware that Luke-12:17 speaks to "the presence of the son of man" right? When the Christ comes into his kingdom, thats all she wrote for the wicked. Time for repentance is past ie the door to the Arc is closed, so to speak. Too late. You see the final witness is not the good news of the kingdom, but a message of doom for the nations.

 

[JTK]

Hi Robert
i would say if that understanding is correct and the 2 witnesses are only delivering a message of doom with no hope for repentance then what is the point of the scripture of Rev 14 6,7
it reads to me like it is a globaly intense, time limited last chance witness for mankind to repent to "fear God and give Him glory"
yes scripture tells that it is an angel delivering this but can that be literal angel flying? so my question is what is this event and who delivers it
i can only see it being the 2 witnesses because of its timing and its intensity and its finality
i may be wrong
Robert i do not know , i simply speculate, like i said earlier i think how these events will play out is very difficult to fully understand
but if you believe that scripture has no last chance gospel then at what point in time does this event occur Rev 14:6,7
I get the distinct impression that it is Global, it is an everlasting gospel, it is delivered at the hour of judgement and it s message is simple and final
"fear god and Give him Glory.
like i said Robert, how all of this fits together in time and sequence tasks my small brain to the point of hurting and it was not my intention to really try to convince anyone of my understanding on such things as we now find ourselves discusiing
the main thrust of my conversation was aimed at Posstot in that i agree that the kingdom of God will be something mankind will be aware of not just by the works of the 2 witnesses but by some global event that changes the relationship of the spirit world and our physical world forever, and i think the bible describes that event as Christ coming on the clouds of heaven in all his glory with all his angels and every eye shall see Him.
that is my main point and of course its speculation
John

 

[Robert194972]

Hi Robert
i would say if that understanding is correct and the 2 witnesses are only delivering a message of doom with no hope for repentance then what is the point of the scripture of Rev 14 6,7
it reads to me like it is a globaly intense, time limited last chance witness for mankind to repent to "fear God and give Him glory"
yes scripture tells that it is an angel delivering this but can that be literal angel flying? so my question is what is this event and who delivers it
i can only see it being the 2 witnesses because of its timing and its intensity and its finality
i may be wrong
Robert i do not know , i simply speculate, like i said earlier i think how these events will play out is very difficult to fully understand
but if you believe that scripture has no last chance gospel then at what point in time does this event occur Rev 14:6,7
I get the distinct impression that it is Global, it is an everlasting gospel, it is delivered at the hour of judgement and it s message is simple and final
"fear god and Give him Glory.
like i said Robert, how all of this fits together in time and sequence tasks my small brain to the point of hurting and it was not my intention to really try to convince anyone of my understanding on such things as we now find ourselves discusiing
the main thrust of my conversation was aimed at Posstot in that i agree that the kingdom of God will be something mankind will be aware of not just by the works of the 2 witnesses but by some global event that changes the relationship of the spirit world and our physical world forever, and i think the bible describes that event as Christ coming on the clouds of heaven in all his glory with all his angels and every eye shall see Him.
that is my main point and of course its speculation
John

I'm with you about not knowing exactly where and how all the bits fit in relation to the "Heat Zone" as I call it. Maybe we can back it up Just a bit. Whereas Nineveh got a message of doom, they also had the option to repent and we know what the record says. The nations on the other hand had the option to repent for 2000yrs g, o, t, to the message of good and warning. ( Keep in mind ) The preaching of the good news with the embedded warning, was to advertise the Kingdom ( I'm just winging it here ).

Fast forward, Christ arrives like a thief. The advertising is over , Christ takes up his kingship, Satan gets kicked out heaven?, those asleep in Christ get woken up?,
( haven't worked out if the anointed are woken, and then Satan is ousted, or the other way round? ) Satan after getting ousted goes loose crashes his system, etc.I suspect that Rev-14; 6 , 7, is just a reiteration of what the righteous ( out of all the nations tribes and tongues ), have already resolved in their hearts what they must do. The angel is reminding them to maintain that resolve so as not to get sucked in by the wild Beast?.

My thinking is that the final witness has no good but only bad news for the nations who have not repented. Rev-9:3-11, 11:3. The door is now closed. Too late, Soon the rain will fall. After all it is the part of the "Heat Zone" The judgement. And the evil get another crack at repenting? Can't see it somehow?
However there is still time before we get into the "Heat Zone" so to speak.

Thank you for your thought proving ideas.

 

[Mattress]

There is nothing wrong with the question! Some brothers or sisters just honestly would like to be close to Jehovah God, their heavenly Father and to Jesus Christ! But we need to remember, that it is Jehovah God that makes the choosing and inviting. But he is not going to force us to accept the invitation, because he respects out free will! But he might send us an “invitation” (Matthew 28:19), That verse is saying in other words: “Go, make anointed for me…”. How does he do it? First through the anointed brothers or sisters and after with his spirit. For example, Romans 8:14: “For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons.” So, if you enjoy daily the prayers and considering the scriptures, witnessing and having a spiritual conversation, and all kinds of theocratic activities, and being happy and his spirit helps you to overcome all difficulties and you retain the happiness and tranquility and continue in that course daily…However, you must remember the part in the model prayer: “Let your will be done”! In other words, Jehovah knows what is best for all of us! Some have developed very close relationships with their marriage mate, with the family members and friends and like to have them forever! For others, it is up to them to accept the “invitation” from Jehovah, if they receive one. How do they do it? By partaking at the Memorial! And even after that when they examine themselves to see if they retain that happy spirit, love, and calmness of relationship with Jehovah continually, it will be an indication that Jehovah is happy with our accepting his invitation…

Hi, Joel
I want to remind you that "invitation" is not working as we typically think. Once you are invited to become a part of Christ's body, you cannot resist it even though you feel sad about your spouse, friends being left on earth. It is not something you can decide to accept or not. If Jehovah decides to anoint a certain person, he or she just cannot refuse it or resist it. It is like the situation that Adam had free will whether to choose to follow God or not. He had a choice but had to choose to follow Him to live. Likewise for anointed people, if they refuse the work of the holy spirit, God's choice, they will not survive. Of course, I doubt if Jehovah ever would choose someone who is rebellious enough to refuse God's choice because of personal preferences. Once you are anointed, your hope changes, it means your mindset and things you like also change. You may admit that earthly life is a good life but realize that it cannot be compared with heavenly life as an immortal spirit. And you start to enjoy your hope.

Heavenly calling is called an invitation in the sense that there still is a possibility you cannot succeed to get the life in heaven. It is not about your choice to accept the calling or not but about your integrity. And if you fail to attend the wedding, there is total destruction. There is no way back to earthly life again once you are anointed. You don't have two hopes. You are anointed and end up to be on a paradise earth? That means you were not anointed in the first place.

For the other sheep, they have two ways. Earthly life or death. For anointed, they also have two ways. Heavenly life or death. Don't add earthly life to this.

At the moment the person is anointed by the holy spirit, the ransom is applied to him and he is considered as a perfect man who doesn't need to live another 1000 years to be perfected and be fully prepared to become a spiritual being any moment. Anointed just cannot be left on earth ignoring all these processes. In being born again, there is no will or choice, or taste of man. But just God's will. Heavenly hope is given to people somewhat forcefully but once you realize it, it is tremendous hope absolutely nothing can be compared with. And you just thank Jehovah.

I accept that everyone can have their own opinion on the subject, but it seems there are so many misunderstandings about it.

Hebrews 6:4 "For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame"

 

[Joel]

Hi, Joel
I want to remind you that "invitation" is not working as we typically think. Once you are invited to become a part of Christ's body, you cannot resist it even though you feel sad about your spouse, friends being left on earth. It is not something you can decide to accept or not. If Jehovah decides to anoint a certain person, he or she just cannot refuse it or resist it. It is like the situation that Adam had free will whether to choose to follow God or not. He had a choice but had to choose to follow Him to live. Likewise for anointed people, if they refuse the work of the holy spirit, God's choice, they will not survive. Of course, I doubt if Jehovah ever would choose someone who is rebellious enough to refuse God's choice because of personal preferences. Once you are anointed, your hope changes, it means your mindset and things you like also change. You may admit that earthly life is a good life but realize that it cannot be compared with heavenly life as an immortal spirit. And you start to enjoy your hope.

Heavenly calling is called an invitation in the sense that there still is a possibility you cannot succeed to get the life in heaven. It is not about your choice to accept the calling or not but about your integrity. And if you fail to attend the wedding, there is total destruction. There is no way back to earthly life again once you are anointed. You don't have two hopes. You are anointed and end up to be on a paradise earth? That means you were not anointed in the first place.

For the other sheep, they have two ways. Earthly life or death. For anointed, they also have two ways. Heavenly life or death. Don't add earthly life to this.

At the moment the person is anointed by the holy spirit, the ransom is applied to him and he is considered as a perfect man who doesn't need to live another 1000 years to be perfected and be fully prepared to become a spiritual being any moment. Anointed just cannot be left on earth ignoring all these processes. In being born again, there is no will or choice, or taste of man. But just God's will. Heavenly hope is given to people somewhat forcefully but once you realize it, it is tremendous hope absolutely nothing can be compared with. And you just thank Jehovah.

I accept that everyone can have their own opinion on the subject, but it seems there are so many misunderstandings about it.

Hebrews 6:4 "For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame"

I wonder, mattress, are you anointed, please?

 

[Posstot]

Once you are anointed, your hope changes, it means your mindset and things you like also change.

This is the only point of your entire post that I see slightly different, because it seems to imply that there is a change from the earthly hope to the heavenly, which I cannot see for those who have been chosen before the founding of the world. Eph 1:4

The other point you make about one's having no choice, once Jehovah calls a person is, that there is also a choice to crunch up and toss away a million dollar lottery ticket once one has been informed about its being the winner, but in reality, who does?

Jehovah knows who would resent knowing the truth, even in a general way, and withholds it; so why would He not also act the same way when it comes to the anointing?

The possibility of not succeeding in getting to heaven is theoretical, as it is written: "He who started a good work in you will carry it to completion until the day of Jesus Christ." Phil 1:6

And again: "Who of you that wants to build a tower does not first sit down and calculate the expense, to see if he has enough to complete it?" Lu 14:28

So, does Jehovah keep His own counsel?

 

[Mattress]

This is the only point of your entire post that I see slightly different, because it seems to imply that there is a change from the earthly hope to the heavenly, which I cannot see for those who have been chosen before the founding of the world. Eph 1:4

I agree that there are many different perspectives and aspects to be considered. I want to extend my opinion a little more on this subject.

Earthly hope is not something given to people by the holy spirit. You don't experience the certain moment that you realize you have earthly hope or feel the action of the holy spirit that gives you earthly hope. But you just like to be a human because you are a human. And after learning about paradise earth, you just want it. And we say we have an earthly hope because you want to live on a paradise earth. But you never know Jehovah really put us on a list of the paradise train or not. Of course, there can be help from the holy spirit for the earthly hope. But most of the people have no sign of holy spirit about their earthly hope.

For the heavenly hope, it is quite different. It is a natural thing for humans to desire to live on as a human. But for the people who were born again, it is like their minds and desires became already of spiritual beings even before they actually were resurrected as spiritual beings. They feel like they are captured into a fragile mortal body. They want to get out of the fleshly body. They want things in a spiritual realm which they don't know much about. For them, earthly things are not that interesting anymore.

2 Corinthians
"For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be torn down, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. For in this house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven, so that when we do put it on, we will not be found naked. In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down, because we do not want to put this one off, but we want to put the other on, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God, who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come."

If someone was a JW before being anointed, that person may have been having earthly hope which means enjoying being a human and things on earth and hoping to go to a paradise on earth. But for those people who were anointed not knowing about paradise on earth, it would have not been like 'earthly hope changing to heavenly hope'. They already had a heavenly hope but after anointing, it got clearer. Actually, they didn't really have a heavenly hope before anointing. They were just wanting to get it. But being born again changes the deepest appetites and desires of the person. That is the real living hope. Clearly, the holy spirit changes the natural human mind into something unnatural for humans. This is an inner change from the deepest of your mind.

And about a million-dollar lottery ticket. Think about it this way. Once you accept the lottery, you have to leave your spouse or friends, the entire relationships you had as a human. And you should also abandon your body to become something very different being which you don't know very much. And even you have to leave not just an earth but the whole physical universe to live in somewhere you don't really know. Your whole life will change. In this case, there might be people who would give up the lottery. This is why some JWs think Jehovah should give them the right to accept or refuse. Because it is just too sad for them to leave everything behind. People have these kinds of questions don't understand the process of anointing. Your desire changes along with anointing. There is no way you can say you don't want it. It excels any human emotions. In this sense also, you don't have a choice.