WT history is a crazy ride

Interesting playlist that describes in some detail early days of the org and all the shady stuff going on behind the scenes: internal strife, failed predictions, strange beliefs, scandals and so on. It doesn't focus on the teachings so much as the character and tactics used by Russell and Rutherford, but it does highlight the fact that Russell used other people's ideas which he incorporated into his teachings. Overall, it's very informative and paints a different picture of the org than the one they've been presenting.

Hi!! Rose hereð¹

Listen to the research I have found along with my history of being one of Jehovah's Witnesses for over half a century. See I was born as one of Jehovah's Wit...

www.youtube.com

Btw, this is an ongoing series. I recommend playing at 1.25 speed to shave off some time...

 

[alan ford]

It gets crazier

Jehovah: Ancient Astronaut?

 

[Ms_ladyblue]

Here’s a quote:

Rutherford, as the above quotes demonstrate, believed that God was confined to a place or location in space. This place was identified as being in the Pleiades star cluster! Specifically it was claimed he probably lived on or near the largest or brightest of the stars in this group, Alcyone. In the August 15, 1925 Golden Age it was stated that the City of Zion in heaven was associated with Alcyone in the Pleiades star group. [3]

They probably got this belief from Piazzi Smyth and Joseph Seiss' works on the pyramids. For example, Russell's Thy Kingdom Come quotes Seiss as saying:

Alcyone, then, as far as science has been able to perceive, would seem to be 'the midnight throne' in which the whole system of gravitation has its central seat, and from which the Almighty governs the universe. [4]

Now this is absolutely crazy. Rutherford was delusional. He certainly was trying to promote this ridiculous idea then as noted in his next quote:

When the Society ended its belief that God lived in the Pleiades in 1953 they stated that this "reverence" could lead to star worship:

were we to think of the Pleiades as his throne we might improperly view with special veneration that cluster of stars.--Deut. 4:19; 2 Chron. 2:6; 6:18. [8]

Deuteronomy 4:19 states:

and that you may not raise your eyes to the heavens and indeed see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the armies of the heavens, and actually get seduced and bow down to them and serve them,... (NWT)

It was crazy in the first place to even consider such an absurd idea that God was confined to a certain place in space. Did Russell and Rutherford have some mental problems?

 

[alan ford]

It was crazy in the first place to even consider such an absurd idea that God was confined to a certain place in space. Did Russell and Rutherford have some mental problems?

Considering their use of occult concepts and using the occult symbolism and imagery in the teachings and publications, I'd say it was more nefarious than mental problems.

Check out more on Rutherford:

Was Rutherford a Spirit Medium?

 

[Watchman]

When we look back on some of the apostles' ridiculous ideas, foolish comments, and embarrassing arguments and realize that Christ established them as the foundation of Christianity, it ought to put things in perspective.

 

[alan ford]

When we look back on some of the apostles' ridiculous ideas, foolish comments, and embarrassing arguments and realize that Christ established them as the foundation of Christianity, it ought to put things in perspective.

Fallacious argument really. It’s not even close. This is occultism, spiritism… things God condemns.

 

[Bk Kevin]

We're at the bottom of the barrel in respect to Mankind and the Watchtower tract Society just happens to be the lesser of two evils so it makes sense to use them until Jehovah's kingdom is fully established.

Psalm 145:13​

מ [Mem]13 Your kingship is a kingship for all times indefinite,aAnd your dominion is throughout all successive generations.b

Daniel 2:44​

44 “And in the days of those kings*a the God of heavenb will set up a kingdom*c that will never be brought to ruin.d And the kingdom* itself will not be passed on to any other people.e It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms,f and it itself will stand to times indefinite;g

 

[Carl]

I believe the WT was/is Jehovah’s organization in terms of bringing out Truth, while also being led by some false apostles/weeds who infiltrated it from the beginning…

Matthew 13:38 “the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one,”

I’ll leave judgement as to who is what up to Jehovah and Jesus… but when you look at the writings of Russell and Rutherford, as well as reports about their behavior, they both seem to be more weeds than wheat. Luckily the weeds have never been able to stamp out the Truth. I for one wouldn’t be here had it not been for the WT; so for that fact I’m grateful for its existence.

 

[Frank D]

I believe the WT was/is Jehovah’s organization in terms of bringing out Truth, while also being led by some false apostles/weeds who infiltrated it from the beginning…

Matthew 13:38 “the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one,”

You said that you 'believe the WT was/is Jehovah’s organization' but then you cite a Scripture that makes clear what/where the field is that the fine seed and weeds are found... 'the field is the world.'

That rules out the WT being exclusively the field of where the fine seed and weeds are found, unless you also believe that the WT is the world...

 

[Watchman]

You said that you 'believe the WT was/is Jehovah’s organization' but then you cite a Scripture that makes clear what/where the field is that the fine seed and weeds are found... 'the field is the world.'

That rules out the WT being exclusively the field of where the fine seed and weeds are found, unless you also believe that the WT is the world...

That's silly. The weeds are uprooted from Christ's Kingdom. Christ's kingdom is a singular congregation.

 

[alan ford]

but when you look at the writings of Russell and Rutherford, as well as reports about their behavior, they both seem to be more weeds than wheat.

Does the weed seed produce wheat when planted? (James 3:11, 12) Their teahings form a basis for what JW believe to this day despite a lot of stuff being discarded.

Here is more crazy stuff. This article condemns the Watchtower for recklessly promoting pseudoscience that endangered members' health and lives over many years.

Quack Cures and radionic Ouija Boards

Despite opposition from some JWs who saw it as occult quackery, the Watchtower continued endorsing this for decades until officially rejecting it in 1953 and later warning it could involve demonic forces.

 

[Watchman]

Fallacious argument really. It’s not even close. This is occultism, spiritism… things God condemns.

Not really. Believing that God lived in a star system is not occultism. And it is no more childish than some of the ideas Christ's disciples had

 

[Frank D]

That's silly. The weeds are uprooted from Christ's Kingdom. Christ's kingdom is a singular congregation.

You saying that the weeds are uprooted from Christ's kingdom is a true statement but then you just completely ignore, and think is silly that when asked to explain, Jesus specifically explains that 'the field is the WORLD'.

How do you view that explanation, do you think that the WORLD only pertains to the WT, in which you believe is the singular congregation of Jesus'

24 He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”...36 Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.

 

[Carl]

You said that you 'believe the WT was/is Jehovah’s organization' but then you cite a Scripture that makes clear what/where the field is that the fine seed and weeds are found... 'the field is the world.'

That rules out the WT being exclusively the field of where the fine seed and weeds are found, unless you also believe that the WT is the world...

The field is the world, but the world isn't Jehovah's organization. Jehovah's physical organization is the visible affiliation of the wheat, as well as the weeds who've infiltrated it. Jehovah's spiritual organization is different than the physical one, just like it was in the days of the Temple. The true anointed make up the spiritual organization, regardless of whether or not they're affiliated with the WT, but the WT is still, IMHO, Jehovah's physical organization; similar to the way the Temple was. The fact that some, but not all wheat & weeds came together to create the WT doesn't mean it isn't Jehovah visible organization/mouthpiece. The Temple was Jehovah's organization, even though it too was composed of wheat & weed like priests; but there were also wheat & weed like Israelites spread far and wide.

 

[Carl]

Does the weed seed produce wheat when planted? (James 3:11, 12) Their teahings form a basis for what JW believe to this day despite a lot of stuff being discarded.

Here is more crazy stuff. This article condemns the Watchtower for recklessly promoting pseudoscience that endangered members' health and lives over many years.

Quack Cures and radionic Ouija Boards

Despite opposition from some JWs who saw it as occult quackery, the Watchtower continued endorsing this for decades until officially rejecting it in 1953 and later warning it could involve demonic forces.

Weeds don't produce wheat, but their actions can highlight the wheat. Just because the 2 most visible leaders of the WT were probably more weed than wheat, doesn't mean the true wheat behind the scenes didn't produce the wheat we see on this forum and elsewhere. It's quite possible Satan used R&R to try to derail the WT's mission, but IMHO it didn't work due to Jehovah's Holy Spirit. It seems to be working now though!

 

[alan ford]

it is no more childish than some of the ideas Christ's disciples had

Where did they promote those ideas and taught them as truth?

the 2 most visible leaders of the WT were probably more weed than wheat

2 most visible leaders who set the course of WT and produced the body of teaching taught as truth? The doctrines which are taught as absolute truth even to this day were written under the influence of "angels". What wheats were there who had any influence on anything? These two men had absolute authority and whoever didn't toe the line was DF'd, a practice that continues to this day.

Satan used R&R to try to derail the WT's mission

R&R defined WT's mission. The whole history of WT is basically a story of its leaders winging it and hoping they'll get it right imo.

 

[alan ford]

it makes sense to use them

I am not arguing against Jehovah using them in some way, He will use whom He wants despite what we think He should do. My doubts are in the claim that He uses them exclusively. If Jehovah would use one group who dabble in occult, then why wouldn't He use another group that misses the mark in some respect? What's the difference?

At the end of the day we will all stand before the Judge individually...

 

[Watchman]

You saying that the weeds are uprooted from Christ's kingdom is a true statement but then you just completely ignore, and think is silly that when asked to explain, Jesus specifically explains that 'the field is the WORLD'.

How do you view that explanation, do you think that the WORLD only pertains to the WT, in which you believe is the singular congregation of Jesus'

24 He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”...36 Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.

The world is people, mankind. Christians are people. God chose people from among mankind, from the world. It is not complicated.

 

[Carl]

Where did they promote those ideas and taught them as truth?


2 most visible leaders who set the course of WT and produced the body of teaching taught as truth? The doctrines which are taught as absolute truth even to this day were written under the influence of "angels". What wheats were there who had any influence on anything? These two men had absolute authority and whoever didn't toe the line was DF'd, a practice that continues to this day.


R&R defined WT's mission. The whole history of WT is basically a story of its leaders winging it and hoping they'll get it right imo.

The WT has taught the truth about the condition of the dead, the trinity, hellfire, 144,000, 1,000 year Kingdom better than any other organization, as well as promoting the name of God... despite the false teachings introduced by R&R. That's my point. I believe this was all due to Jehovah's influence/restraint. I believe the imperfect WT has been Jehovah's visible organization, the same way the imperfect Temple arrangement was.

 

[Carl]

I am not arguing against Jehovah using them in some way, He will use whom He wants despite what we think He should do. My doubts are in the claim that He uses them exclusively. If Jehovah would use one group who dabble in occult, then why wouldn't He use another group that misses the mark in some respect? What's the difference?

At the end of the day we will all stand before the Judge individually...

This is where we agree. I don't think the WT has a monopoly on truth. Jehovah can and does use whoever He pleases.

 

[Frank D]

The field is the world, but the world isn't Jehovah's organization.

In Matt 13:24-43 above (post #13) it shows that fine seed/wheat and weeds are together in what is said to be the master's field. It is made clear that the field is the WORLD which you acknowledge. In the future it shows that the angels will go out and collect the weeds and pitch them into the fiery furnace leaving behind only wheat.

Jesus' kingdom is the same as God's kingdom in which we still pray to come. When Jesus does come (after the 42 months) with him comes that kingdom. Because the weeds will not inherit that kingdom that is when they are collected out and pitched into the fiery furnace. That then leaves only the wheat there in Jesus' kingdom.

Matthew 13:37-43; Matt 25:31-34,41,46

There is no such event ever where angels come and remove weeds from the WTS leaving only wheat within it. (If you think there is please tell me what it is? Also, why not all stay in the WTS now being that its Jehovah's organization and weeds will be removed from it if that is what you believe?)

There is no event where weeds are removed from the WORLD and pitched into the fiery furnace until after the 42 months of the 8th king.

True wheat/sheep now in the WORLD will refuse the 8th king when that time comes. They will inherit God's kingdom when it comes after the 42 months.

Weeds/goats now in the WORLD will go along with the 8th king when that time comes. Then after that time they will be collected out from the WORLD and pitched into the fiery furnace.

 

[Carl]

In Matt 13:24-43 above (post #13) it shows that fine seed/wheat and weeds are together in what is said to be the master's field. It is made clear that the field is the WORLD which you acknowledge. In the future it shows that the angels will go out and collect the weeds and pitch them into the fiery furnace leaving behind only wheat.

Jesus' kingdom is the same as God's kingdom in which we still pray to come. When Jesus does come (after the 42 months) with him comes that kingdom. Because the weeds will not inherit that kingdom that is when they are collected out and pitched into the fiery furnace. That then leaves only the wheat there in Jesus' kingdom.

Matthew 13:37-43; Matt 25:31-34,41,46

There is no such event ever where angels come and remove weeds from the WTS leaving only wheat within it. (If you think there is please tell me what it is? Also, why not all stay in the WTS now being that its Jehovah's organization and weeds will be removed from it if that is what you believe?)

There is no event where weeds are removed from the WORLD and pitched into the fiery furnace until after the 42 months of the 8th king.

True wheat/sheep now in the WORLD will refuse the 8th king when that time comes. They will inherit God's kingdom when it comes of the 42 months.

Weeds/goats now in the WORLD will go along with the 8th king when that time comes. Then after that time they will be collected out from the WORLD and pitched into the fiery furnace.

Once the weeds are removed from Jehovah's worldwide spiritual organization, and His physical one (the WT), the physical WT will no longer exist. JWs (sheep) who choose to remain inside the WT, placing their trust in the weeds, by not following the wheat who will have left, will go down with the ship.

 

[alan ford]

God chose people from among mankind

And he collected those ppl in the org, before the harvest?

Once the weeds are removed from Jehovah's worldwide spiritual organization, and His physical one (the WT), the physical WT will no longer exist. JWs (sheep) who choose to remain inside the WT, placing their trust in the weeds, by not following the wheat who will have left, will go down with the ship.

So wait, Jesus came and established a spiritual nation, and has done away with the physical, only to have it established again after almost 2000 years, which will again be done away with? Meanwhile holy spirit has no (or little) relevance... and angels still lead the ministry, and uninspired men are just flip-flopping and confusing people...

 

[Frank D]

The world is people, mankind. Christians are people. God chose people from among mankind, from the world. It is not complicated.

With my reply to Carl in post #21 in mind:

So, you are saying that world=people/mankind=Christian people/mankind=WTS/world that God chose...

Okay, let's say that is so. If WTS is the WORLD/Jesus' kingdom, where the wheat and weeds are NOW, in what way/event and at what point will the angels collect out from the WTS all the weeds?

41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.

Also, does the HOT come only upon the WTS/WORLD? And what is the HOT?

10 ... the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.

 

[Carl]

And he collected those ppl in the org, before the harvest?

I would say that Jehovah choose who to anointed from the world, of which most have gravited to the WT due to its correct doctrines.

So wait, Jesus came and established a spiritual nation, and has done away with the physical, only to have it established again after almost 2000 years, which will again be done away with? Meanwhile holy spirit has no (or little) relevance... and angels still lead the ministry, and uninspired men are just flip-flopping and confusing people...

You're sounding like a preterist now.

EDIT: I respect you and Frank for challenging the view most hold on this forum, that the WT is Jehovah's organization. What do you think is the "house of God" where judgment begins, if not the WT? It seems to me you're saying it's a loose group of people worldwide who consider themselves spiritual Israelites. If this is the case, what doctrines bind them together? IMHO, the WT was necessary in order to corral the anointed into one doctrine, which was infiltrated by Satan from the beginning.