WT history is a crazy ride

Interesting playlist that describes in some detail early days of the org and all the shady stuff going on behind the scenes: internal strife, failed predictions, strange beliefs, scandals and so on. It doesn't focus on the teachings so much as the character and tactics used by Russell and Rutherford, but it does highlight the fact that Russell used other people's ideas which he incorporated into his teachings. Overall, it's very informative and paints a different picture of the org than the one they've been presenting.

Hi!! Rose hereð¹

Listen to the research I have found along with my history of being one of Jehovah's Witnesses for over half a century. See I was born as one of Jehovah's Wit...

www.youtube.com

Btw, this is an ongoing series. I recommend playing at 1.25 speed to shave off some time...

 

[MickHewitt]

I would say that Jehovah choose who to anointed from the world, of which most have gravited to the WT due to its correct doctrines.

I agree; Jehovah and Christ have used His house as a dragnet to haul those attracted to His Name and principles upon the beach to be sorted! Mtt13:47 "The kingdom of the heaven's is as a dragnet...gathering fish of every kind"

 

[alan ford]

You're sounding like a preterist now.

Preterism
Christian eschatological view interpreting past fulfillment of biblical prophecies.

A preterist is someone who holds to the eschatological view of preterism, which interprets some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the end times as events that have already happened in the past.

I'd say JW are more in line with this view since they believe that something yet to happen already happened.

 

[Carl]

Preterism
Christian eschatological view interpreting past fulfillment of biblical prophecies.

A preterist is someone who holds to the eschatological view of preterism, which interprets some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the end times as events that have already happened in the past.

I'd say JW are more in line with this view since they believe that something yet to happen already happened.

I didn't say you're a preterist, but I guess I felt your statement about the spiritual nation having already been fulfilled, and has no modern fulfilment, sounded a little preterist to me.

 

[Frank D]

I would say that Jehovah choose who to anointed from the world, of which most have gravited to the WT due to its correct doctrines.

So, Jehovah chose people to be anointed prior to being part of the WTS? And then these anointed people gravitated to the WTS believing and as well teaching 1914?

I agree; Jehovah and Christ have used His house as a dragnet to haul those attracted to His Name and principles upon the beach to be sorted! Mtt13:47 "The kingdom of the heaven's is as a dragnet...gathering fish of every kind"

So, within the WTS/WORLD of 8 million people/mankind there are fine fish and unsuitable fish?

What about the rest of the 7,992,000,00 people/mankind?

[47 “Again the Kingdom of the heavens is like a dragnet let down into the sea and gathering fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, they hauled it up onto the beach, and sitting down, they collected the fine ones into containers, but the unsuitable they threw away. 49 That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. The angels will go out and separate the wicked from among the righteous 50 and will cast them into the fiery furnace.]

Remember that speaking about wheat/weeds and fish are parables that Jesus used to teach because they understood farming and fishing.

But the real application is applied when the angels go out and remove the wicked and cast them into the fiery furnace leaving only righteous ones here.

By what means and at what point do you suppose the angels remove wicked/unsuitable fish/weeds from the WTS/his house and cast them into the fiery furnace leaving only righteous ones there?

Matthew 13:37-43; Matt 25:31-34,41,46

 

[Carl]

So, Jehovah chose people to be anointed prior to being part of the WTS? And then these anointed people gravitated to the WTS believing and as well teaching 1914?

I would say that since Jehovah knows the end from the beginning, He knew who the apostles were at the moment He gave humans and angels free will. I believe the WT WAS His instrument of refinement and gathering, even with Satan setting up shop inside. This doesn't mean all the chosen will be from the WT.

 

[Frank D]

I respect you and Frank for challenging the view most hold on this forum, that the WT is Jehovah's organization. What do you think is the "house of God" where judgment begins, if not the WT?

I would be glad to tell you, as I have stated it on here many different times. But how about first we try this....

You and anyone else that does hold the view that 'the WT is Jehovah's organization', 'the house of God', you tell us by what means it is that the judgment on the WTS/God's house/people comes?

Is it WW3, 42 months of the 8th king, or some other means?

 

[Carl]

You and anyone else that does hold the view that 'the WT is Jehovah's organization', 'the house of God', you tell us by what means it is that the judgment on God's house/people comes?

Is it WW3, 42 months of the 8th king, or some other means?

What is the spiritual house of God? I would say the anointed are, regardless of their being inside or outside of the WT. I believe they're approved or rejected when Jesus returns, which IMHO starts the HOT. Their actions during the run up to his return are what their judgment is based upon. As for the GC? I would say their judgment happens after they make their choice about the MOTB, because up until then redemption is still possible.

 

[alan ford]

the WT was necessary in order to corral the anointed into one doctrine

And what doctrine is that? Doctrine of 1914 and the invisible presence, doctrine that the resurrection already begun and that you need to be loyal to someone else besides Jesus and can't be saved unless you are? It's not much different than the rest of Christendom imo; they have these doctrines of men that they also teach and say it's from God. Although JW might have understood some things more correctly than others it's the same thing really, teaching doctrines of men. Little leaven corrupts the whole batch...

Jesus set us free from all this and gave us a simple principle to follow, not a doctrine per se, although it's not easy to live acording to it when you're surrounded by Satan's schemes on all sides.

what doctrines bind them together?

They are bound together, in spirit, by faith in Jesus. Jesus will take to him those whom he approves, in due time. By saying that man's org is necessary to bind them together (in a physical location or organization) you're discounting the role of the holy spirit in all this.

What is the spiritual house of God? I would say the anointed are, regardless of their being inside or outside of the WT.

Spiritual house is spiritual. The key word here is spiritual. It's not physical. Besides, as discussed previously on few occasions, anointing in scriptures was always done in the presence of witnesses and came with spiritual gifts for a witness to all that they were anointed. Who can claim this today? Does someone claiming they are anointed not run ahead of the actual revealing of the sons of God?

 

[MickHewitt]

Spiritual house is spiritual.

We know the constant feature that is about to be removed is from as Daniel describes in 8:11 'The established place of his sancturary' ???

 

[Carl]

And what doctrine is that? Doctrine of 1914 and the invisible presence, doctrine that the resurrection already begun and that you need to be loyal to someone else besides Jesus and can't be saved unless you are? It's not much different than the rest of Christendom imo; they have these doctrines of men that they also teach and say it's from God. Although JW might have understood some things more correctly than others it's the same thing really, teaching doctrines of men. Little leaven corrupts the whole batch...

Jesus set us free from all this and gave us a simple principle to follow, not a doctrine per se, although it's not easy to live acording to it when you're surrounded by Satan's schemes on all sides.

The doctrine of the 1,000 year Kingdom, followed by Satan's release and then destruction... As well as being right about the condition of the dead, the trinity, hellfire... I believe the WT's false teaching about 1914 best fulfills the prophesy at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 "However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here."

 

[Carl]

Does someone claiming they are anointed not run ahead of the actual revealing of the sons of God?

IMHO, anyone who claims to be anointed is only running ahead if they also claim to be sealed. As far as I know, no anointed are claiming to be sealed, which means they also aren't claiming to be revealed. As for the process of anointing... that's between the individual and Jehovah & Jesus. At times I've wondered if I'm anointed due to my strong faith, but in the absence of overwhelming evidence, I'm waiting for further instruction. I've decided not to sweat the topics I can't answer, and instead I'll wait for Jehovah & Jesus to enlighten me when they feel it's time.

 

[Frank D]

What is the spiritual house of God? I would say the anointed are, regardless of their being inside or outside of the WT. I believe they're approved or rejected when Jesus returns, which IMHO starts the HOT. Their actions during the run up to his return are what their judgment is based upon. As for the GC? I would say their judgment happens after they make their choice about the MOTB, because up until then redemption is still possible.

Okay, you are wavering here on what you say. (But in a good way.)

You said and asked:

I respect you and Frank for challenging the view most hold on this forum, that the WT is Jehovah's organization. What do you think is the "house of God" where judgment begins, if not the WT?

There you claim the WT is the house of God.

Then you say:

What is the spiritual house of God? I would say the anointed are, regardless of their being inside or outside of the WT.

I didn't ask you what his house is, I am accepting the view that you believe it is the WTS. What I asked and want to know is by what means does judgment come upon the WTS...but now you have jumped to his house being spiritual and being anointed ones regardless of then being in or out of the WTS. That is somewhat a good answer because his house/temple today is spiritual and made-up by people in such way.

Notice that you say there can be anointed outside of the WT. If you believe that his house is spiritual and anointed can be outside of the WTS, then that alone should show you that there is no reason to believe that the said judgment on the house of God comes upon the WTS.

That said, you failed to say by what means does a physical judgment come upon God's house (Now we are going to go by you stating his house is spiritual, but you can answer just the same if you want to return to his house being the WTS.)

[17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?]

Is it WW3, 42 months of the 8th king, or some other means

 

[alan ford]

We know the constant feature that is about to be removed is from as Daniel describes in 8:11 'The established place of his sancturary' ???

Yes, but do we know how this will come about? We might have a rough idea, but we can't know the specifics because we can't see the future unless Jehovah inspires us to see it as He did prophets of old. We can speculate though...

The doctrine of the 1,000 year Kingdom, followed by Satan's release and then destruction... As well as being right about the condition of the dead, the trinity, hellfire...

It's not only WT that teaches this, and besides Russell adopted this belief from someone else, he didn't come up with it on his own.

I believe the WT's false teaching about 1914 best fulfills the prophesy at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 "However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here."

Here is another group that fits https://www.rainbowtoken.com/Savior-returned-in-the-last-days

 

[MickHewitt]

We can speculate though...

Oh dear brother Alan: We have faith you have speculation.

 

[Carl]

Yes, but do we know how this will come about? We might have a rough idea, but we can't know the specifics because we can't see the future unless Jehovah inspires us to see it as He did prophets of old. We can speculate though...


It's not only WT that teaches this, and besides Russell adopted this belief from someone else, he didn't come up with it on his own.


Here is another group that fits https://www.rainbowtoken.com/Savior-returned-in-the-last-days

I'm sure there are small sects who share WT teachings, but which one shares them all? Which one has spread the Bible all over the world in hundreds of languages? Which one also fulfils the negative prophesies the way the WT does?

 

[alan ford]

IMHO, anyone who claims to be anointed is only running ahead if they also claim to be sealed. As far as I know, no anointed are claiming to be sealed, which means they also aren't claiming to be revealed.

So what would be the reason for anyone claiming they are anointed if not that they are somehow above the rest? Like Gary Breaux said "our future kings"...

As for the process of anointing... that's between the individual and Jehovah & Jesus.

Is there an example in the scriptures where anointing happened in secret? When did Jehovah do anything in secret? There were always witnesses to anointing.

Oh dear brother Alan: We have faith you have speculation.

I am putting my faith in Jehovah and Jesus, not speculation. I just said that we can speculate about how things will come about, but we can't know the specifics of it. On the other hand there's a lot of speculation or expectation here on this forum, on a daily basis, in regards to how things will transpire...

I'm sure there are small sects who share WT teachings, but which one shares them all? Which one has spread the Bible all over the world in hundreds of languages? Which one also fulfils the negative prophesies about the way the WT does?

Jesus said the identifying mark of his true followers is the genuine, unselfish love they show among themselves, not doctrines and interpretations of prophecy. Salt and Light...

Consider what Jesus says to congregations in Rev 2 and 3. I think those are types of Christian congregations/churches we have today... Jesus addressed the congregations individually, not as a part of an organization. Do you think JW are representing all 7 of them?

Here's a quick overview:

• Ephesus (Rev 2:1-7) - Commended for their hard work and perseverance, but rebuked for abandoning their first love.
• Smyrna (Rev 2:8-11) - Praised for their faithfulness and perseverance, with no rebuke.
• Pergamum (Rev 2:12-17) - Commended for holding fast, but rebuked for tolerating false teaching and immorality.
• Thyatira (Rev 2:18-29) - Praised for their love and faith, but rebuked for tolerating false teaching and immorality.
• Sardis (Rev 3:1-6) - Rebuked for having a reputation of being alive, but being dead. Only a few had not soiled their garments.
• Philadelphia (Rev 3:7-13) - Praised for keeping Christ's word and not denying His name, with no rebuke.
• Laodicea (Rev 3:14-22) - Rebuked for being lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, and in need of repentance.

 

[Carl]

So what would be the reason for anyone claiming they are anointed if not that they are somehow above the rest? Like Gary Breaux said "our future kings"...

Anyone who claims to be anointed due to powerlust, either isn't anointed or is a weed IMHO. If someone is anointed and also feels superior to others, then I'd question their anointing.

Jesus said the identifying mark of his true followers is the genuine, unselfish love they show among themselves, not doctrines and interpretations of prophecy. Salt and Light...

True, but this doesn't mean there isn't a visible organization. If there is no visible organization, then who fulfils the negative prophesies?

 

[Carl]

Consider what Jesus says to congregations in Rev 2 and 3. I think those are types of Christian congregations/churches we have today... Jesus addressed the congregations individually, not as a part of an organization. Do you think JW are representing all 7 of them?

Here's a quick overview:

• Ephesus (Rev 2:1-7) - Commended for their hard work and perseverance, but rebuked for abandoning their first love.
• Smyrna (Rev 2:8-11) - Praised for their faithfulness and perseverance, with no rebuke.
• Pergamum (Rev 2:12-17) - Commended for holding fast, but rebuked for tolerating false teaching and immorality.
• Thyatira (Rev 2:18-29) - Praised for their love and faith, but rebuked for tolerating false teaching and immorality.
• Sardis (Rev 3:1-6) - Rebuked for having a reputation of being alive, but being dead. Only a few had not soiled their garments.
• Philadelphia (Rev 3:7-13) - Praised for keeping Christ's word and not denying His name, with no rebuke.
• Laodicea (Rev 3:14-22) - Rebuked for being lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, and in need of repentance.

Each Kingdom Hall can seperately fall into one of those 7 examples.

 

[wth]

IMHO, anyone who claims to be anointed is only running ahead if they also claim to be sealed. As far as I know, no anointed are claiming to be sealed, which means they also aren't claiming to be revealed. As for the process of anointing... that's between the individual and Jehovah & Jesus. At times I've wondered if I'm anointed due to my strong faith, but in the absence of overwhelming evidence, I'm waiting for further instruction. I've decided not to sweat the topics I can't answer, and instead I'll wait for Jehovah & Jesus to enlighten me when they feel it's time.

We also waiting to see the 11 hour workers called into the field.like Benjamin given to double partion of the spirit.

 

[Frank D]

We know the constant feature that is about to be removed is from as Daniel describes in 8:11 'The established place of his sancturary' ???

Spiritual house is spiritual.

Yes, spiritual house is made of physical people and when the 8th king comes to power, no one that wants to be part of the spiritual house will support the 8th king, therefore physical people will be captives and or killed by the 8th king. The taking captive/killing of these that make up the spiritual house is how the judgment comes upon God's house. It is how the temple/holy place is trampled for 42 months during the 8th king rule. This is not a WTS/JW event, it is a WORLDWIDE event which includes all people/mankind of the entire inhabited earth. JWs are people/mankind inhabiting the earth, so they can be said to be part of the spiritual house if they are refusing to support the 8th king when that time comes. But likewise, all others that are also refusing to support the 8th king are part of that spiritual house/temple being trampled upon during those 42 months.

[5 you yourselves as living stones are being built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, in order to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.]

[21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah.]

[19 Then he said: “Here I am causing you to know what will happen in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end.]

[17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God.]

[10 ... the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.]

[18 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour.] [4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.] [5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.] [6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath,]

[31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature.
“And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation. 32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively. 36 “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the God of his fathers; nor will he show regard for the desire of women or for any other god, but he will magnify himself over everyone.]

[9 Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration. 10 It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. 11 It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down.]

 

[Bk Kevin]

The world is people, mankind. Christians are people. God chose people from among mankind, from the world. It is not complicated.

That makes sense because Jesus said his kingdom was no part of the world so it stands to reason his people would be no part of the world.

John18:​

36 Jesus answered:+ “My kingdom is no part of this world.+ If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought+ that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”

John17:​

14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated+ them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.+15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one.+ 16 They are no part of the world,+ just as I am no part of the world.+ 17 Sanctify+ them by means of the truth; your word+ is truth.+ 18 Just as you sent me forth into the world, I also sent them forth into the world.+ 19 And I am sanctifying myself* in their behalf, that they also may be sanctified+ by means of truth.20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word;+ 21 in order that they may all be one,*+ just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you,+ that they also may be in union with us,+ in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.+

 

[Bk Kevin]

I am not arguing against Jehovah using them in some way, He will use whom He wants despite what we think He should do. My doubts are in the claim that He uses them exclusively. If Jehovah would use one group who dabble in occult, then why wouldn't He use another group that misses the mark in some respect? What's the difference?

At the end of the day we will all stand before the Judge individually...

Great question.​

Excerpted from -Why Jehovah’s Witnesses?​

Question: While you do make very good and fascinating points, the question I have is the following: Everything in Prophecy (Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc.) you point to the JW’s as per the fulfillment. Is it not possible that these prophecies can also point to say the Adventists, Mormons, Baptists, Christadelphians, etc? How can you be so sure it is only the JW’s they point to? Aren’t all religions misguided and cults?> https://e-watchman.com/why-jehovahs-witnesses-2/​

Also read>

Why Jehovah’s Witnesses? 2- https://e-watchman.com/why-jehovahs-witnesses/​

 

[Frank D]

Yes, spiritual house is made of physical people and when the 8th king comes to power, no one that wants to be part of the spiritual house will support the 8th king, therefore physical people will be captives and or killed by the 8th king. The taking captive/killing of these that make up the spiritual house is how the judgment comes upon God's house. It is how the temple/holy place is trampled for 42 months during the 8th king rule. This is not a WTS/JW event, it is a WORLDWIDE event which includes all people/mankind of the entire inhabited earth. JWs are people/mankind inhabiting the earth, so they can be said to be part of the spiritual house if they are refusing to support the 8th king when that time comes. But likewise, all others that are also refusing to support the 8th king are part of that spiritual house/temple being trampled upon during those 42 months.

[5 you yourselves as living stones are being built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, in order to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.]

[21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah.]

[19 Then he said: “Here I am causing you to know what will happen in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end.]

[17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God.]

[10 ... the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.]

[18 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour.] [4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.] [5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.] [6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath,]

[31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature.
“And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation. 32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively. 36 “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the God of his fathers; nor will he show regard for the desire of women or for any other god, but he will magnify himself over everyone.]

[9 Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration. 10 It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. 11 It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down.]

Even the WTS recognizes that the judgment that starts on God's house is the 42-month period with Rev 11:2,13:5, etc. Only they apply that just to themselves and to the period of Oct 1914 - April 1918 and make no big deal about the MOTB and HOT. But WW3 and the empowering the UN as the 8th king after 2 billion people are killed will show them when the real 42-month judgment comes and what it will entail and who it will come upon.

[17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?]

So, the first part of that Scripture pertains to those refusing the MOTB during the 42-months. The second part of that Scripture pertains to the judgment on the MOTB takers who receive their judgment after the 42 months, when Jesus comes.

[6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.” 9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”]

[7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.

And: Matthew 13:37-43; Matt 25:31-34,41,46

 

[MickHewitt]

Oh dear brother Alan: We have faith you have speculation.

Drats! I put speculation and I thought your word was skepticism. I must cut down the Guiness! Yet with all the fine witness given here I am surprised you are not fully on board. It truly does gives one an inward smile when they know they have found the pearl of great value. I used to sup at Bethel's well but it became too bitter. I honestly believe Alan that Jehovah and His Christ has opened a well of truth here. I truly hope you will soon join us in the Joy brother.

 

[MickHewitt]

but we can't know the specifics because we can't see the future unless Jehovah inspires us to see it as He did prophets of old.

I will go on the record by acknowledging the Watchman as a prophet inspired by God! He has more than speculated upon truths and forwarded those truths to Bethel He has blown the horn in Zion; Exposing 1914, UN involvement, KOTN, WW3! Eze33:33 "And when it comes true and it will come true they will have to know that a prophet has been among them" Alan you obviously see something here worth your time?