"your slaves the prophets AND the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great"

[Paul H]

Recently I had a discussion with a fellow Dutch brother about Revelation 11:16-18.

"And the 24 elders who were seated before God on their thrones fell upon their faces and worshipped God, saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

"your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

So there are 2 groups: 1 group thats being rewarded and the 2nd group (those ruining the earth) who will be punished.
We wondered if "those fearing your name" are the great crowd. I personally suspect that "those fearing your name" is the same group as in Romans 10:13 > For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.

The issue is with the word "and" > "your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name...", so if the slaves and prophets would make up the 144.000, why does it say "and" the holy ones?

The 24 elders symbolize the 144.000...
1 . the holy ones who are the 144,000. But then we read that word "and". Should we then assume that the Bible is speaking of a different group here?
2. So those from Rom. 13. (probably) Incidentally, the 24 elders are not the same as the 144,000! Why not. Read up on Revelation 14:3.

"And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth."

So there it says that the 144,000 sing a song that only they know. So not those 24 elders!

I wonder what you guys and gals think about this? Please feel free to share your input.

 

[The God Pill]

Recently I had a discussion with a fellow Dutch brother about Revelation 11:16-18.

"And the 24 elders who were seated before God on their thrones fell upon their faces and worshipped God, saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

"your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

So there are 2 groups: 1 group thats being rewarded and the 2nd group (those ruining the earth) who will be punished.
We wondered if "those fearing your name" are the great crowd. I personally suspect that "those fearing your name" is the same group as in Romans 10:13 > For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.

The issue is with the word "and" > "your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name...", so if the slaves and prophets would make up the 144.000, why does it say "and" the holy ones?

The 24 elders symbolize the 144.000...
1 . the holy ones who are the 144,000. But then we read that word "and". Should we then assume that the Bible is speaking of a different group here?
2. So those from Rom. 13. (probably) Incidentally, the 24 elders are not the same as the 144,000! Why not. Read up on Revelation 14:3.

"And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth."

So there it says that the 144,000 sing a song that only they know. So not those 24 elders!

I wonder what you guys and gals think about this? Please feel free to share your input.

I recall watching a video or two on Greg Stafford's channel where without adopting a position he expressed open-mindedness to the 24 elders being spirit creatures that are not the annointed/a symbol of the 144k. If you think of the number 24 it's 1/3 of 72 and roughly the size of most Jewish courts in ancient times in fact when the Bible says people will deliver you to courts the footnote in the 1984 NWT says lesser Sanhedrins. I don't maintain a specific interpretation at the moment but my suspicion for a while has been that the 24 elders are a tier of faithful angels above the 72 fallen princes former state and below the 7 archangels.

 

[Paul H]

I recall watching a video or two on Greg Stafford's channel where without adopting a position he expressed open-mindedness to the 24 elders being spirit creatures that are not the annointed/a symbol of the 144k. If you think of the number 24 it's 1/3 of 72 and roughly the size of most Jewish courts in ancient times in fact when the Bible says people will deliver you to courts the footnote in the 1984 NWT says lesser Sanhedrins which were roughly twenty four judges. I don't maintain a specific interpretation at the moment but my suspicion for a while has been that the 24 elders are a tier of faithful angels above the 72 fallen princes former state and below the 7 archangels.

Thanks for your input TGP. I was also reading up on Robert's article "Who are the 24 elders in Revelation".
https://e-watchman.com/who-are-the-24-elders-in-revelation/
Very interesting material.

 

[SkinnyAndShort]

Hmm I always thought the 24 elders were a group of angels, how can they be the 144,000 if John is speaking to one of the elders asking him about the great crowd?

 

[The God Pill]

Hmm I always thought the 24 elders were a group of angels, how can they be the 144,000 if John is speaking to one of the elders asking him about the great crowd?

When my father went to elder school he reported they claimed it was time travel or something and John was speaking with his future self 😂

 

[SkinnyAndShort]

When my father went to elder school he reported they claimed it was time travel or something and John was speaking with his future self 😂

Lol…if that’s the case I am so lost in understanding revelations.

 

[Paul H]

When I first read this text, I thought those 24 elders are the rewarded 144.000 who are talking to Jehovah in retrospect.
"and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great"
I assumed that "the slaves / the prophets are those who served Jehovah as slaves / prophets before the period of Christ. Those slaves / prophets dont have a heavenly hope, so they arent part of the "holy ones / 144.000", however they will still be rewarded with an earthly hope.
I assumed that "Those fearing your name" are the ones with an earthly hope, both the survivors of the GT as well as those who are in Hades / Sheool.

Still that doesn't explain Revelation 14:3 > "And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth."

Those singing the song are the 144.000... and they are also singing this song before the "elders". So how can the elders simultaneously also be the 144.000? In Rev 4:10 it says that the 24 elders have crowns, so they must be the 144.000...

questions questions questions

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Recently I had a discussion with a fellow Dutch brother about Revelation 11:16-18.

"And the 24 elders who were seated before God on their thrones fell upon their faces and worshipped God, saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

"your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

So there are 2 groups: 1 group thats being rewarded and the 2nd group (those ruining the earth) who will be punished.
We wondered if "those fearing your name" are the great crowd. I personally suspect that "those fearing your name" is the same group as in Romans 10:13 > For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.

The issue is with the word "and" > "your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name...", so if the slaves and prophets would make up the 144.000, why does it say "and" the holy ones?

The 24 elders symbolize the 144.000...
1 . the holy ones who are the 144,000. But then we read that word "and". Should we then assume that the Bible is speaking of a different group here?
2. So those from Rom. 13. (probably) Incidentally, the 24 elders are not the same as the 144,000! Why not. Read up on Revelation 14:3.

"And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth."

So there it says that the 144,000 sing a song that only they know. So not those 24 elders!

I wonder what you guys and gals think about this? Please feel free to share your input.

I know what you mean Paul. I sometimes wonder if we will ever get answers to bible prophesy…in detail at least. It’s one of the reasons I just take a day at a time.

 

[The God Pill]

When I first read this text, I thought those 24 elders are the rewarded 144.000 who are talking to Jehovah in retrospect.
"and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great"
I assumed that "the slaves / the prophets are those who served Jehovah as slaves / prophets before the period of Christ. Those slaves / prophets dont have a heavenly hope, so they arent part of the "holy ones / 144.000", however they will still be rewarded with an earthly hope.
I assumed that "Those fearing your name" are the ones with an earthly hope, both the survivors of the GT as well as those who are in Hades / Sheool.

Still that doesn't explain Revelation 14:3 > "And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth."

Those singing the song are the 144.000... and they are also singing this song before the "elders". So how can the elders simultaneously also be the 144.000? In Rev 4:10 it says that the 24 elders have crowns, so they must be the 144.000...

questions questions questions

Assuming my hypothesis is correct than there's no discrepancy there. One targum of Deuteronomy 32 describes Jesus ripping multiple crowns off of Satan when he kicks his butt. As the adversary indicated in the temptation in the wilderness the authority (crowns) of the seventy two etc had been delivered to him by them. If it is correct that the 24 Elders is a higher rank than those than categorically it'd make sense they'd have crowns.

 

[Watchman]

The 24 elders represent the organization of kings and priests who have been bought from the earth to rule with Christ. The 144,000 represent the individuals who make up the group. Even though the 24 elders are pictured as in heaven all the individuals who will ultimately make up that body do not all appear before the throne all at once. The dead in union with Jesus will rise first. The ones alive on earth after the tribulation are called the remaining ones. So, they are the holy ones who will be rewarded at the conclusion of the first resurrection. Or, alternatively, John may have been referring to the entire body of holy ones. But Revelation 11:16-18 also refers to the dead being judged. God's "slaves the prophets" must be those like Moses, Ezekiel, and Daniel. Remember in the closing words of the book of Daniel the angel told the aged prophet he would rest but then stand up for his lot at the end of the days. So Revelation is talking about the first and second resurrections as well as the reward to be given to the living who fear God, both the small and the great, which would be the great crowd who survive the end.

 

[The God Pill]

The 144k interpretation certainly remains a respectable possibility given the logic of it corresponding to the 24 divisions of the priesthood David set up. Some early Christians thought it was the apostles and a dozen prophets and/or patriarchs. If it's the annointed it could be that each elder symbolizes a division or is a representative of a division of 6K (144k÷24) annointed.

 

[The God Pill]

Was reading the handful of sayings of Papias (disciple of John) that are preserved, quoted or referenced in the 2nd-4th century and it appears like he was aware of and believed the Deuteronomy 32 worldview I mention every now and then.

Papias thus speaks, word for word: To some of them [angels] He gave dominion over the arrangement of the world, and He commissioned them to exercise their dominion well. And he says, immediately after this: but it happened that their arrangement came to nothing.

 

[Zane]

1 . the holy ones who are the 144,000.

(Matthew 27:52) And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep were raised up.

(Revelation 20:9) And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them.

(Revelation 14:12) Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”