Adam and Eve question

Nomex said:
Yes, they would have been perfect! For an absolute fact perfect. Are you going to argue that the imperfect genes of a sinful woman would have overruled the genes of a perfect man. And why did it only require the blood of the "second Adam" to redeem Adam's offspring and not the blood of a perfect man and a perfect woman? BTW, the WT agrees with me on this one and I agree with them! You lose! :LOL:
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The conception within Mary was miraculous. Thus I believe the fetus that was Jesus was encapsulated in holiness within an imperfect host but not affected by her genes. The case of a perfect Adam and imperfect Eve would not have that safety feature and/or holy protection.
 
BillyRay said:
Not that it would actually be like this... But imagine if Adam and Eve were resurrected. There would be billions of people with a bone to pick with them - me included. Anyhow... that type of thing is way above my spiritual pay grade. I'll leave such decisions in Jehovah's hands.

However.... I did find a cool Watchtower article from 1965 that addressed this. Here are a couple paragraphs, and their conclusion. (Of course, the light could have gotten brighter on this topic since then. If so, I'm not aware of it.)

Because Adam - despite God’s full warning - willfully brought death upon all his offspring, he was a willful murderer, and Eve shared with him in this willful transgression. So Jehovah, acting in harmony with his later law concerning the Israelite “cities of refuge,” would refuse to accept any ransom in Adam’s behalf and in Eve’s behalf, not letting them come under the ministration of his High Priest Jesus Christ. But as regards the human family that descended from them, God could justly accept the ransom sacrifice of his High Priest Jesus Christ in their behalf, because their sinfulness that merited death was only accidental, it not being willed by them but being due only to birth from Adam.

What about the ransom benefits and Cain the son of Adam?

In the case of Cain, the first son of Adam, God justly withholds the benefits of Christ’s ransom sacrifice from Cain because Jehovah God directly warned Cain and yet he wickedly assassinated his godly brother Abel. For Cain as well as for his parents Adam and Eve we reasonably expect no resurrection from the dead.
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Yeah, there might be a lynch mob if that were to occur.
But who knows?
 
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I do have to say first this was an almost cartoonishly serious topic to Christians in the first millenia AD they placed so much importance on Adam being redeemed by the ransom that it was cause for disfellowshipping to deny it. Some texts in Syria go so far in tripling down on it that they claim Adam was buried in Golgotha allege Adam was told he would be redeemed 5500 years after he was kicked out of the garden, others push the myth that Jesus stormed hades before his ressurection met it's inhabitants including Adam and freed the good ones taking them to heaven. Obviously all of the above is garbage but the overlapping idea wherever it came from that Adam would be redeemed was something Christians felt very strongly about for a while.

Regardless of the topic of redemption I will say we all know there's a category of ressurection called that of judgement and while the org has a specific interpretation of that which could be right I don't rule out the possibility it's just that a ressurection of judgement wicked people getting there day in court before permadeath annihilation.

On this claim Jesus was a robot incapable of attraction to humans and "Satan didn't tempt him on that" Abraham was tested ten times and passed every time the Israelites in the wilderness we're tested ten times and failed every time undoubtedly Jesus arrest, trial and execution count as test and when the devil left it was for another convenient time Satan could have had as many as a half dozen test on Jesus we know nothing about which could've included women.

On a perfect man paired with an imperfect woman it's not even neccesarily a gene thing but right to life, condition of spirit/breath of life animating a person and the blood. A perfect man can conceive a perfect child and yes there's little question Jesus would've had the right/means to have them but generally speaking the coupling of a perfect man and imperfect women would see the perfect embryo corrupted by the sharing /transfer of resources in the womb and any blood or cells plus the physical overlap leaves the fetus in a position the much larger more developed mothers imperfect hologram is somewhat superimposed over the child's which could manifest an effect like the personality changes someone that receives a donated organ has for the duration of pregnancy but proportionately much stronger.
 
The God Pill said:
I do have to say first this was an almost cartoonishly serious topic to Christians in the first millenia AD they placed so much importance on Adam being redeemed by the ransom that it was cause for disfellowshipping to deny it. Some texts in Syria go so far in tripling down on it that they claim Adam was buried in Golgotha allege Adam was told he would be redeemed 5500 years after he was kicked out of the garden, others push the myth that Jesus stormed hades before his ressurection met it's inhabitants including Adam and freed the good ones taking them to heaven. Obviously all of the above is garbage but the overlapping idea wherever it came from that Adam would be redeemed was something Christians felt very strongly about for a while.

Regardless of the topic of redemption I will say we all know there's a category of ressurection called that of judgement and while the org has a specific interpretation of that which could be right I don't rule out the possibility it's just that a ressurection of judgement wicked people getting there day in court before permadeath annihilation.

On this claim Jesus was a robot incapable of attraction to humans and "Satan didn't tempt him on that" Abraham was tested ten times and passed every time the Israelites in the wilderness we're tested ten times and failed every time undoubtedly Jesus arrest, trial and execution count as test and when the devil left it was for another convenient time Satan could have had as many as a half dozen test on Jesus we know nothing about which could've included women.

On a perfect man paired with an imperfect woman it's not even neccesarily a gene thing but right to life, condition of spirit/breath of life animating a person and the blood. A perfect man can conceive a perfect child and yes there's little question Jesus would've had the right/means to have them but generally speaking the coupling of a perfect man and imperfect women would see the perfect embryo corrupted by the sharing /transfer of resources in the womb and any blood or cells plus the physical overlap leaves the fetus in a position the much larger more developed mothers imperfect hologram is somewhat superimposed over the child's which could manifest an effect like the personality changes someone that receives a donated organ has for the duration of pregnancy but proportionately much stronger.
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When this topic comes up, for some reason I seem to want to cross reference it with the wicked angels of Noah’s day who forsook their proper dwelling place to have relations with women. Look at the offspring they created.

Now, those angels weren’t born human as Christ was…. But when they materialized they did become flesh and blood and were able to pass their enhanced genetic material onto the women they had relations with - thereby creating their giant offspring.

I can see both the similarities and the differences between these two situations.
 
Thanks for all the thoughts on this topic, I wonder if both Adam and Eve knew they had no hope and their end was coming and to never live again because of their mistake or would they have just been oblivious to the fact they lost out on forever lasting life.
 
SkinnyAndShort said:
Thanks for all the thoughts on this topic, I wonder if both Adam and Eve knew they had no hope and their end was coming and to never live again because of their mistake or would they have just been oblivious to the fact they lost out on forever lasting life.
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Jehovah told them they would die. Satan told them they would not. As they grew older and weaker and their bodies broke down they realized they had been lied to by Satan. Sometimes it's easier to not think about things as they are and they probably avoided the subject but deep down inside they knew.

But here's an interesting question to think about. What was the significance of the Tree of Everlasting Life? Why did they have to be barred from it if it was just "symbolic"? Cherubs protected the entrance to the garden until, I presume, the flood came and it was destroyed.
 
TheJehuChariot said:
When Christ Jesus was baptized, he became fully aware and cognizant of his pre human, spirit existence. At that very moment, most definitely his desire to return "home" to be back alongside his heavenly Father cloaked in spiritual beauty was beyond words and any form of explanation the likes of us specs of dust could fathom or conjure up. Thus, to speculate hypothetically "If" Christ had of had children, etc is beyond recognition to me personally and borders on "________". I believe Jesus would have had zero desire for women. He was neutral. And I believe via his pre human understanding, knowledge, wisdom and unparralled love for his God it would have made the thought of cohabitating w/an earthling, frankly egregious and animalistic in equation. Thus, based on the Scriptures, why the Devil never tempted Jesus with sexual desires. Instead, he tempted him w/food, ego, pain. Even Satan knew Jesus held perfect mastery over his flesh w/perfect self control. Something pathetic Adam failed to exhibit. Where Adam's physical love for his wife was greater than for his Creator and mammy needy for her, Jesus love for his Father was immeasurable and something no fleshly woman could ever match and/or substitute. He needed only one thing...to be back with the Almighty, his beloved spirit Father, the personification of Love and the source of all masculine and feminine creation.
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To me a fleshly desire is a fleshy desire, if being tempted with both, starvation/food and an amorous/romantic adventure, the flesh will prioritize the food first and quickly move onto the second. The devil picked the temptation that would be in the first spot.
 
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TheJehuChariot said:
When Eve sinned....what IF Adam had of rebuked her and stayed obedient to God. Yes, she would then eventually die within God's day....some 900 years later. But since we're playing hypothetical here, lets say via God's allowing...Adam then cohabitated w/his then suddenly sinful , imperfect wife Eve.... and bore children with her.... do you actually think such a union would have bore "perfect" offspring? I argue a perfect man who impregnated an imperfect vessel yields an imperfect child, albeit likely more robust, healthier and more handsome than two imperfect souls. Nonetheless, death would still be imminent for the child because the female host was flawed. Under that premise....a 1st century argument over such a predicament is therefore a mute point. :) 😀 Ahhhh, it lovely being right. Lol
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Based on how the law emphasized that sin was passed on through sexual relations/reproduction, and that Jesus was perfect and the part that was missing in his conception was the sinful donor....I think it can be logically deduced that if Adam hadn't sinned, the children would have been born perfect. It is just speculation that something more was going on with Jesus conception that shielded him from Mary's imperfection. Do we not believe that at his earliest moment Jesus was a fertilized egg? And if we think about an egg as just a blob sitting there and sperm that dance and wiggle, if a very elementary observation had to be made, which of those two looks more likely to carry the life force?
 
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A B said:
Ultimately it's up to Jehovah, but I do see a legal way they could be resurrected. Someone who is dead has paid the price for their sin. There is no debt to God anymore, the books are even.
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I'll tackle if from a different angle.

What about Judas? We know he's not coming back. It was because he committed the unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

But couldn't the same be said of Adam? He walked with God in the paradise of pleasure God provided. God talked with him and taught him. He saw and felt the power of God's Holy Spirit firsthand. And yet he denied it. He rejected it. Kind of like Judas...
 
A B said:
To me a fleshly desire is a fleshy desire, if being tempted with both, starvation/food and an amorous/romantic adventure, the flesh will prioritize the food first and quickly move onto the second. The devil picked the temptation that would be in the first spot.
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Of course you think that way, your DNA is imperfect and sinfully inclined.
 
TheJehuChariot said:
The conception within Mary was miraculous. Thus I believe the fetus that was Jesus was encapsulated in holiness within an imperfect host but not affected by her genes. The case of a perfect Adam and imperfect Eve would not have that safety feature and/or holy protection.
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You are missing the whole point. The point of Jesus birth was not that he some how was sheilded from the Adamic imperfection by the miracle that Jehovah performed by transferring his life into a human being, rather the point was that a perfect human being could actually obey God. Satan didn't raise the issue after faithful Angels remained faithful to God, that ship had sailed...he did it when man was created it, and he did it quick.

Jesus to be the second Adam, for an absolute fact, had to be tempted by the exact same things as Adam, other wise he could not and would not be "the second Adam". It's math!
 
kirmmy said:
I'll tackle if from a different angle.

What about Judas? We know he's not coming back. It was because he committed the unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

But couldn't the same be said of Adam? He walked with God in the paradise of pleasure God provided. God talked with him and taught him. He saw and felt the power of God's Holy Spirit firsthand. And yet he denied it. He rejected it. Kind of like Judas...
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So Judas saw daily how many people Jesus healed and even resurrected. If you leave Jesus, Jehovah and his Holy Spirit out of it, just on the basis of the miracles, Judas was stealing this benefit away from the people of Israel for his own material gain. Already, this is in a completely different league than Adam with regard to motivation.
 
The difference between perfect people and us is that perfect people do not make silly mistakes. It is true that the Bible says Eve was deceived. However, Adam was not. He deliberately chose to disobey God. We might speculate that had Adam remained true to God, he being the head of Eve, God might have pardoned Eve and simply zapped the Devil right then and there. But Adam loved his wife more than he loved God and that is why the scripture says sin entered the world through the one man. Furthermore, there is no indication that Adam was even remorseful. When Jehovah called him out he was hiding in the shrubbery and he blamed God for his sin. "It was the woman YOU gave me." Sad.
 
Watchman said:
The difference between perfect people and us is that perfect people do not make silly mistakes. It is true that the Bible says Eve was deceived. However, Adam was not. He deliberately chose to disobey God. We might speculate that had Adam remained true to God, he being the head of Eve, God might have pardoned Eve and simply zapped the Devil right then and there. But Adam loved his wife more than he loved God and that is why the scripture says sin entered the world through the one man. Furthermore, there is no indication that Adam was even remorseful. When Jehovah called him out he was hiding in the shrubbery and he blamed God for his sin. "It was the woman YOU gave me." Sad.
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Absolutely it was the first act of idolatry and valuing a product/effect over it's source/cause. Short sighted ingratitude he did not even have it in him to own up to.
 
Watchman said:
The difference between perfect people and us is that perfect people do not make silly mistakes. It is true that the Bible says Eve was deceived. However, Adam was not. He deliberately chose to disobey God. We might speculate that had Adam remained true to God, he being the head of Eve, God might have pardoned Eve and simply zapped the Devil right then and there. But Adam loved his wife more than he loved God and that is why the scripture says sin entered the world through the one man. Furthermore, there is no indication that Adam was even remorseful. When Jehovah called him out he was hiding in the shrubbery and he blamed God for his sin. "It was the woman YOU gave me." Sad.
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The last sentence of your paragraph struck me and I think really identifies how short Eve was around before she sinned, maybe for just a few days or a week. The way Adam spoke of her... "the woman YOU gave me". He spoke of her as if she was some object. As if he hadn't really formed a deep, strong attachment based on love. As if she was just some new toy he had gotten but like an infant with a broken rattler toy, throws it to the ground in a tantrum. Had they been together for a long time where his relationship with her had matured w/true love, he would have naturally reacted and said, "It was "my" wife who made me do it".
 
Yes Adam was disobedient, And the Price he paid was death.But the real reason was not about some fruit on a tree(Did God love the fruit more than this human son?)The issue was what the devil say about beening like God knowing good from bad.The issue is not about Adam and Eve.Its with Jehovah and Satan.Weather Adam and Eve our ever restored too life in the billions of year's in the future is for Jehovahto judge.But it is the Wicked Spirit inHeavenly places that must be removed.Just a thought
 
w_stone said:
Yes Adam was disobedient, And the Price he paid was death.But the real reason was not about some fruit on a tree(Did God love the fruit more than this human son?)The issue was what the devil say about beening like God knowing good from bad.The issue is not about Adam and Eve.Its with Jehovah and Satan.Weather Adam and Eve our ever restored too life in the billions of year's in the future is for Jehovahto judge.But it is the Wicked Spirit inHeavenly places that must be removed.Just a thought
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Had Adam obeyed God's command the Devil would never have become mankind's evil influencer. Obedience would have protected Adam and his unborn offspring.
 
I think if I could ask Eve one question, it would be why she gambled with forever lasting life knowing if she was wrong about what this snake was telling her, she would die. Why did you gamble with your life and not talk to God about what this snake said to you about eating from this tree.
 
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It's was because the Devil who was wronged if he never questioned Jehovah rule The question of Jehovah rulership would never have been a concerned .If that question was not bought out.He would never question God loving rulinship.Our.problem started with the Devil not with Adam.What happens with
Adam is Jehovah matter not ours.Lets fight the evil of Satan not our fleshly parents
 
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