If you claim to be Anointed. How do you know? Really How?

Right, this is a matter of definition: there is only one Christian hope, the heavenly, because Christian means anointed, and therefore, non-anointed are by definition not Christians, although among JWs, unlike the rest of Christianity, it is standard practice to refer to those who desire to live on earth as Christians; hence the confusion of there being two different hopes for Christians.

The NT simply does not concern itself at all with those who are not anointed, and who want to live on earth; so why does the WT seek to recruit them, while frowning upon those who have the heavenly calling?

Although the NT concerns itself only with those of the heavenly calling, not all who follow Christ and are baptized in water are automatically born of the Spirit, because otherwise the anointing would proceed from man instead of Jehovah, who alone gives the spiritual birth according to the good pleasure of His will. Ac 2:39; 19:2; Eph 1:5

While the spirit birth is unmistakable in the one receiving it, others may have trouble believing it, but fortunately their consent and approval is not needed.

The past 2000 years, and until the coming of Christ, is the time for calling and perfecting the holy ones, not the collecting and blessing of those who will live on earth, as the WT is busying itself with.
Spot on, Posstot!👏🏼 So, ok, I agree with everything you said here …but where I’m stuck atm is par 3. I’m sure if you read my post on pg 15 of this thread, you’ll get a good idea of where I‘m coming from …so what do the poor saps do (scripturally) who are baptized and follow Christ but are not chosen …as regards the Lord’s Evening Meal? Is there any scriptural evidence that those who hadn’t yet had the spirit fall on them after baptism avoid partaking of the emblems? Since the call until Christ’s coming is for true Christians, then wouldn’t Christ want his disciples even nowadays to become actual Christians? Would that not mean replicating what we find in the NT? This has been seriously weighing on me, and I know you have a wonderful grasp of the scriptures …so if you have any insights, I’d love to hear them. My post that I mentioned, shows what I’ve reasoned out myself so far, but I’m not 100% sure that I’m not missing something. I’d really like your input since you understand that non-anointed ones are actually not Christians. Are we supposed to be ok with that even though we actually desire to be Christian? Again, I‘m looking for an answer from the scriptures, not WT understandings🙏🏼😘 Thank you, in advance, Posstot!
 
Spot on, Posstot!👏🏼 So, ok, I agree with everything you said here …but where I’m stuck atm is par 3. I’m sure if you read my post on pg 15 of this thread, you’ll get a good idea of where I‘m coming from …so what do the poor saps do (scripturally) who are baptized and follow Christ but are not chosen …as regards the Lord’s Evening Meal? Is there any scriptural evidence that those who hadn’t yet had the spirit fall on them after baptism avoid partaking of the emblems? Since the call until Christ’s coming is for true Christians, then wouldn’t Christ want his disciples even nowadays to become actual Christians? Would that not mean replicating what we find in the NT? This has been seriously weighing on me, and I know you have a wonderful grasp of the scriptures …so if you have any insights, I’d love to hear them. My post that I mentioned, shows what I’ve reasoned out myself so far, but I’m not 100% sure that I’m not missing something. I’d really like your input since you understand that non-anointed ones are actually not Christians. Are we supposed to be ok with that even though we actually desire to be Christian? Again, I‘m looking for an answer from the scriptures, not WT understandings🙏🏼😘 Thank you, in advance, Posstot!
I am in the same thinking as you guys. And I am reading the account in Acts. Those people got baptized but not with the spirit yet because they didn't know about Jesus. They needed full belief in Jesus, and that's when the holy spirit came upon them.

If I may share my experience a bit, because it relates to this passage of scriptures to me...I got baptized as a teenager. I knew I always wanted to serve God, I want to do what was right, etc. I lived by my beliefs to the best of my ability... But it was only the past two years that something really changed. I think the whole situation got flipped upside down, as we all know with covid opening some people's eyes, and something happened. My husband and I turned to the Bible only. We stayed up late so many nights just pouring over the scriptures. We even cried because it affected us so much! We wish we had gone off on our own and just read it like that years ago, instead of just underlining our watchtowers. Then we both felt incredibly different. And I felt very differently than I ever had about Jesus. Not that I hadn't deeply appreciated his sacrifice and everything.... But it was a totally different experience. Now we just try to talk to everyone about the Bible and Jesus... It's not some forced hour counting, it's like we can't even help it because it's always bubbling out. We even felt like we just wish we could get baptized again because now we feel like we have a totally different outlook and deep love for God's Word, Jesus and God... Before we got baptized to be JWs. But now we want to be baptized in the name of Jesus... Is this sounding like hogwash? 😅😅

Anyways, I related to the scriptures in Acts because they believed what John taught, they wanted to turn from sin to God, but it wasn't until they understood further and truly believed in Jesus that they were affected by holy spirit.

thanks if you made it that far into this post lol
 
I must admit that I’ve been heavily pondering this very question. I can’t help but agree with your reasoning. To me the scriptures reign supreme, no matter what any religious dogma says. It is our touchstone. Weighing any religious idea against scripture is the only way we can determine if it is actually true or not. This is what Paul taught the early Christians to do with any and all “inspired” utterances. As I’ve been going through the letters, I just cannot get past how there was no provision for any other way for Christians. Paul’s letters were written quite some time after Jesus’ death …but yet all Christians were taught by Paul to partake of the Lord’s Supper (1Cor 11:23) Like you say, there was no division.

Paul was not there for the original Lord’s Supper, yet he received the custom from the resurrected Jesus, which Paul, then, handed it down to the Gentiles who had never even known Jesus in the flesh. He told them that whenever they observed this meal that they would “keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he comes.“ All baptized disciples became known as “Christians”, Therefore if you were a Christian in the first century, whether Jew or Gentile, you partook of this meal. All Christians partook, no exceptions.

If you wanted to be a follower of Christ back then, then you had to be a Christian. That meant baptism in Jesus’ name and that meant partaking of the emblems. They were Christians because they remained in Jesus like branches to a vine or olive tree. The branches had no life in themselves apart from the vine or tree. (John 15:1-10; Rom 11:17-23) I have to ask myself, am I really a Christian if I do not do as Jesus and the Bible writers clearly indicated that Christians should do? Is it really true that Jesus is only the mediator for the ones who go to heaven? The GB teaches that the great crowd‘s salvation is dependent on sticking to them, since Jesus is not the mediator for those with an earthly hope. Yet, that can’t be the case considering what Paul wrote to Timothy at 1Tim 2:1-7. John 10:1-18 also indicates that Jesus is the fine shepherd for both the “little flock” and the “other sheep”. For, really, no one else can give us salvation, not even the Anointed (Acts 4:12) John tells us that anyone who does not remain in Jesus, is like a dried up branch that is gathered to be thrown into the fire (John 15:6) So if the salvation of the Great Crowd is still dependent on Jesus’ sacrifice, then what should they do, as regards the Lord’s Supper?

It kinda comes down to… can we really call ourselves followers of Christ aka Christians, if we are actually following any men whether they be the GB or any person that has the heavenly hope? That is what it has come down to for me. Paul put it well when he said to the Corinthians, “Is the Christ divided? Paul was not executed on the stake for you, was he?“ (1Cor 1:11-13) If faithful Apostles like Paul could not serve in the stead of Christ, who can? Since nobody can attain salvation through anyone other than Christ, should we not do as the first century Bible writers told Christians to do? Like you, there Is no scripture that I can find that tells a group of people not to partake. That seems really odd to me since the Great Crowd is a group of much larger magnitude than the Little Flock. Since so many people‘s salvation is at stake, you would think that Jehovah would give clear direction in His Word for such a huge group …especially if they were supposed to do the opposite of such an important command handed down from Jesus himself.

As regards the potential “higher” position of those gaining the heavenly reward, Jesus told his followers that all of them were to be brothers. They were also to be careful about calling anybody leader, for only Christ is the Leader. (Matt 23:8-12) Paul explained the joining of Gentiles with the Jews. So in the context of the first century, the Anointed ones were not to consider themselves as more special than others. As Paul explained, any of them, whether Gentile or Jew, could easily be “lopped off” of God’s figurative olive tree. (Rom 11) Yes, Paul viewed the heavenly hope as an exceptional privilege but a personal one nonetheless.

In view of all this, I really appreciated you bringing out that information about Irenaeus and other early Christians. I had no idea that they were teaching about different hopes so close to the time of the first-century Bible writers! That was SO interesting! The GB would have us believe that Rutherford was only able to figure that out in recent history. It was “new light”. But if the Christians of old knew exactly that, then that gives a whole new perspective on what it means to have a Christian hope, at least to me.

I’m still trying to figure it all out and I might have gone astray somewhere in my reasoning …but from my Bible reading, I’ve come to similar conclusions as you. I have not partaken as of yet, but as I said, the matter has been weighing heavily on me and I’ve been trying to figure out what I should do in order to be pleasing to Christ and be worthy of carrying the designation of Christian. Also, like you and some others on this thread, I really don’t mind where Jehovah places me. I really do love this earth and would love to make my permanent residence here. But as I have been doing my Bible reading, I was coming to this realization that after Christ died, there was only one way to follow to show that you want to be a Christian follower of Christ. It almost seemed that if you looked forward to an earthly hope, you couldn’t be Christian because that set you on the path to heavenly life. But Jesus didn’t seem to offer anything else.

The earthly hope was only for those that lived prior to Christ’s death. So like one comment on here, it almost felt like, if I wanted to be a Christian, I would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the heavenly realm😂 But then, like a few others, it kind of came to me that even if I was baptized (which I am) and I took part in the Lord’s meal, it is still Jehovah who chooses where He wishes to place me since He’s the one who chooses whether to spirit-anoint me or not.

And I thought about how the meal was based off the Passover which all the Jews ate unless they were unclean for some reason. The Passover meal while it had great significance was not meant to be a ceremonial ritual where only a few were allowed to partake. It was an actual meal that brought each of the Jewish families together in remembrance of what Jehovah had done for them. Those are the circumstances in which Jesus instituted his Last Meal. It seems from what I have read that the early Christians also had meals together in connection with partaking of the emblems. It also seems to have served a similar purpose in bringing the Christians together to remember what their purpose in being Christians was …to proclaim the death of the Lord, until he comes. Isn’t this the purpose of every Christian, no matter their hope since it is only Jesus‘ death that provides the basis for releasing all groaning creation? And when I look at the context of Paul’s counsel to the Corinthians to not eat or drink unworthily, he seems to be talking about their lack of respect for the occasion as shown in their behaviour rather than him saying they should be checking themselves to be sure they are spirit-anointed. (1Cor 11:27-29)

But since I’m still in the wondering stage, I do welcome any thoughts as to what I may have missed in all this. And again, I really appreciate your comments on this potentially controversial topic, Ireneo😊

As much as I am known here for preaching against 'package deals,' and denouncing them as from the Devil, as for instance, the WT offers you their 'truth deal,' where you have to submit to all their 'unique teachings' in order to get God's approval - because these package deals are designed to attract people with a fair bit of truth, to then also commit to taking the associated lies that are packaged along with them, and thus compromising people in their faith - whereas one would need to dissect their package and pick and choose which teachings are true and to be adopted, and which are not.

However, what if a 'package deal' is from Jehovah, as is the case with the faith based on the NT, where all components are required, and where conversely any picking and choosing would be from the Devil, who, as a smart cookie would want to subvert God's arrangement, as he always does?

So here we have the whole NT talking about and addressing nobody else but those who have been born of God, who then also go to heaven and as reminder of this, eat and drink of the ceremonial body and blood of Jesus, at least once a year.

Why would anybody want to pick apart what Jehovah has put together?

Why would anyone want to partake of Christ's body and blood, but not want to be with Him in Heaven?

Does the great crowd survive the great tribulation because of partaking of the emblems at the memorial of Christ's death?
 
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Food for thought...​

How many “hopes” are there?​

Stumper Questions for Jehovah’s Witnesses – #40
QUESTION: If there are 144,000 spirit anointed people who have a heavenly hope, and a great crowd of people who have another hope of everlasting life on paradise earth, why does Paul say that there is only ONE hope (Eph 4:4), instead of two?
There is only one hope for those who are called. Here is what Ephesian 4:4-6 states: “One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

What is the calling? In the 3rd chapter of Philippians Paul referred to it as “the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus.” So, the hope, the goal of those who receiving the upward call, is to be with God and Christ in heaven.

But is that the sole destiny of man, to be called to heaven? No, actually Paul referred to another hope – the hope of the general resurrection of the dead, of even unrighteous persons. Here is what the apostle stated as regards this other “hope,” as he stood before the governor of Judea: “And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”

What hope was Paul referring to? Not the hope of the upward call. Unrighteous persons will not be resurrected into Jehovah’s presence in Heaven.

Furthermore, the men whom Paul spoke of who also hoped in a resurrection were his Jewish accusers who did not accept Jesus as the Messiah and who knew nothing of the upward call. What hope did they have then? The hope of an earthly resurrection.

So, Paul’s reference to the “one hope” is not to be understood as the only hope. Sadly, though, some people are so opposed to the truth, so thoroughly ignorant, they have no hope at all.> https://e-watchman.com/how-many-hopes/
 
I am in the same thinking as you guys. And I am reading the account in Acts. Those people got baptized but not with the spirit yet because they didn't know about Jesus. They needed full belief in Jesus, and that's when the holy spirit came upon them.

If I may share my experience a bit, because it relates to this passage of scriptures to me...I got baptized as a teenager. I knew I always wanted to serve God, I want to do what was right, etc. I lived by my beliefs to the best of my ability... But it was only the past two years that something really changed. I think the whole situation got flipped upside down, as we all know with covid opening some people's eyes, and something happened. My husband and I turned to the Bible only. We stayed up late so many nights just pouring over the scriptures. We even cried because it affected us so much! We wish we had gone off on our own and just read it like that years ago, instead of just underlining our watchtowers. Then we both felt incredibly different. And I felt very differently than I ever had about Jesus. Not that I hadn't deeply appreciated his sacrifice and everything.... But it was a totally different experience. Now we just try to talk to everyone about the Bible and Jesus... It's not some forced hour counting, it's like we can't even help it because it's always bubbling out. We even felt like we just wish we could get baptized again because now we feel like we have a totally different outlook and deep love for God's Word, Jesus and God... Before we got baptized to be JWs. But now we want to be baptized in the name of Jesus... Is this sounding like hogwash? 😅😅

Anyways, I related to the scriptures in Acts because they believed what John taught, they wanted to turn from sin to God, but it wasn't until they understood further and truly believed in Jesus that they were affected by holy spirit.

thanks if you made it that far into this post lol
That’s really crazy how similar our experiences are!!😳 Only, my husband, while he’s supportive, has not quite been on the same journey as I have. I had been feeling this urge to get into the Bible itself for years, but I’d always end up feeling bad that I wasn’t getting my “studying” done. So I tried so many times to do both, but it just wouldn’t happen. There’s a deadline on studying, so it would get the priority, sadly. Then, like you said, with the pandemic ..it was “Nope! The Bible HAS to be my priority! That’s it!”

We, also, got baptized as teenagers, only we weren’t born in. But you make me laugh, because I’ve also, just recently, told my husband that I want to be re-baptized in the name of Jesus😅 My husband was kind of irritated, thinking I wanted to be baptized into some other religion. But no, I just have this desire to be baptized properly in the name of Jesus. I’ve been trying to work out the logistics because I really don’t have anyone to baptize me and I don’t really have my husband’s full support as of yet. So that’s so funny! You’re talking to someone who absolutely doesn’t think it’s hogwash at all😂😂 I wanted to say, also, thank you for any prayers that you guys may send in my behalf to be able to see clearly what I should do. I definitely could use all the help in understanding that I can get!🤗

It’s also really interesting that I haven’t been on here for quite some time, just due to personal circumstances …but something just drew me to this thread first off! I’m so glad cause I’ve just been so enjoying this discussion …so much so, that I’m up way too late too lol. Btw, which chapter in Acts was it? I’ve been busy reading the letters and the Gospels, but I haven’t been into Acts for a good, long time. I’ve actually been wanting to go over all the accounts of baptism in the NT …that’s my project I’ve been wanting to start …but haven’t quite yet😝

And thank you! I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading all your posts on this thread and the resulting replies😁👍🏼
 
Well, I think we are kind of going around in circles here because I was asking what your opinion is on the groups of 12 000 then, and are they also literal then? But we don't have to press it further, I was only trying to understand what your point of view on that is, is all. I never doubted there would be people on earth, as I said. :)

As for the article, it plainly states Jesus definitively goes on in that chapter of John to again show a distinction of two flocks, but I read it and it's not there, so that's problematic. I don't know who Roberts is. I don't have a problem with him as a person or anything, but no offense, I am not aiming to stop following after a group of men (the GB) to then follow after just one man (this other guy people are talking about a lot). I'm trying to read and understand the Bible, not articles. So if you can't explain the article clearly with scriptures, even though you say you agree with it, that seems like an issue - and I mean that in the most respectful way possible, too. Thank you for the conversation here today, cheers. :)

The 144,000 are clearly symbolic, because of the 12 times 12; but why can't the number 'perchance' also be literal, just like the symbolic 12 foundation stones where actually 12 historic individuals, and the '12 tribes' were numerically literal as well?
 
As much as I am known here for preaching against 'package deals,' and denouncing them as from the Devil, as for instance, the WT offers you their 'truth deal,' where you have to submit to all their 'unique teachings' in order to get God's approval - because these package deals are designed to attract people with a fair bit of truth, to then also commit to taking the associated lies that are packaged along with them, and thus compromising people in their faith - whereas one would need to dissect their package and pick and choose which teachings are true and to be adopted, and which are not.

However, what if a 'package deal' is from Jehovah, as is the case with the faith based on the NT, where all components are required, and where conversely any picking and choosing would be from the Devil, who, as a smart cookie would want to subvert God's arrangement, as he always does?

So here we have the whole NT talking about and addressing nobody else but those who have been born of God, who then also go to heaven and as reminder of this, eat and drink of the ceremonial body and blood of Jesus, at least once a year.

Why would anybody want to pick apart what Jehovah has put together?

Why would anyone want to partake of Christ's body and blood, but not want to be with Him in Heaven?

Does the great crowd survive the great tribulation because of partaking of the emblems at the memorial of Christ's death?
Ok, Posstot, I think I mainly get what you’re puttin’ down. But as for the third question, probably because of WT mumbo jumbo through the years …I’m not really sure. I completely agree that the Other Sheep in John 10 refers to the Gentiles that would be brought into the Christian “fold” later by ones such as the Apostle Paul. But WT has always connected the Other Sheep to the Great Crowd. So, as of this moment in time, I’m not really sure who the heck is represented by the Great Crowd of Revelation. It’s kinda weird that there would be this large group that seems to only be mentioned once. Although RR144 did mention how a Great Crowd is mentioned in Rev 19. I do remember that now cause I did notice that in my read through Revelation .,,but that was quite awhile ago. So I’d love it if you‘d give me some hints haha …just not too cryptic, K?😅

…But yeah, if I could be sure of who exactly they are (scripturally, of course) then I might be able to determine whether they do partake of the emblems or not. The Other Sheep obviously do lol. But I’m kinda getting the vibe that that’s the wrong answer😂
 
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Ok, Posstot, I think I mainly get what you’re puttin’ down. But as for the third question, probably because of WT mumbo jumbo through the years …I’m not really sure. I completely agree that the Other Sheep in John 10 refers to the Gentiles that would be brought into the Christian “fold” later by ones such as the Apostle Paul. But WT has always connected the Other Sheep to the Great Crowd. So, as of this moment in time, I’m not really sure who the heck is represented by the Great Crowd of Revelation. It’s kinda weird that there would be this large group that seems to only be mentioned once. Although RR144 did mention how a Great Crowd is mentioned in Rev 19. I do remember that now cause I did notice that in my read through Revelation .,,but that was quite awhile ago. So I’d love it if you‘d give me some hints haha …just not too cryptic, K?😅

…But yeah, if I could be sure of who exactly they are (scripturally, of course) then I might be able to determine whether they do partake of the emblems or not. The Other Sheep obviously do lol. But I’m kinda getting the vibe that that’s the wrong answer😂

My citing Acts 19 was only to show that being a disciple of Jesus does not of itself equate to being born of the Spirit, although in that case the reason for this was because they had not received water baptism in Christ's name, but which need not be the only reason for not receiving the anointing because of what is implied in Peter's words: ' . . . the promise [of heavenly life, as part of Abraham's seed] is to . . . as many as Jehovah our God may call to Him.' Ac 2:39

It is not my job to stop people from partaking, but just to note that it involves 'a sharing in the blood of Christ,' which is sprinkled in the Most Holy Presence of Jehovah, on the 'altar from which those who do sacred service at the tent have no authority to eat,' and which implies sacrificing and loosing ones right to life here on earth, because the 'body is burned up outside the camp,' which is here on earth. 1 Co 10:16,17; Heb 13:10

Some people misinterpret John 6:53-56 - to 'eat His flesh and drink His blood' - to mean that Jesus was talking there about taking the emblems; but that is not the case, because He was talking to the Jews who opposed Him, and whom He shocked into revealing their hearts intent, which was willful unbelief in the face of miraculous evidence; the eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood was a metaphor for appropriating His coming sacrifice on their behalf by means of faith, which He knew they would not want; hence, His to them offensive cutting to the chase.

As to the great crowd of Re 7, some will argue that the 'standing before the throne' has to be literal, which is not true, since standing on God's footstool, the earth, means also standing before His throne; and besides, why would Jehovah pitch a tent in Heaven, in His living room, to shelter the great crowd from the scorching heat? Can't He turn His thermostat down a bit for them instead?

No, it is more likely that there will be a bit of heat here on earth, once the billions of dead unwashed ancestors come back in the resurrection, where God's tent will need to be pitched for a 1000 years, to dash the nations into shape with an iron scepter, and to guide the meek ones to fountains of waters of life, in preparation for the final surrounding of the camp of the, by then, deemed holy ones, when fire will come down out of Heaven to devour their enemies. Re 12:5; 2:26,27; Ps 110:2; 1 Co 15:25,26
 
Right, this is a matter of definition: there is only one Christian hope, the heavenly, because Christian means anointed, and therefore, non-anointed are by definition not Christians
According to Wikipedia: "The words Christ and Christian derive from the Koine Greek title Christós (Χριστός), a translation of the Biblical Hebrew term mashiach (מָשִׁיחַ) (usually rendered as messiah in English).[6]

According to https://carm.org/dictionary/christian/ : "The word Christian comes from the Greek word christianos which is derived from the word christos or Christ, which means “anointed one.”
Yes, Christ means anointed one. Being a derivative of a word does not mean they carry the same definition however, and I'm sure you are aware of this. A Christianos would simply mean one who follows THE anointed one, doesn't make the one carrying the name Christian anointed. Nice try but until you can prove Christian means anointed your argument is flawed.
 
Yes, Christ means anointed one. Being a derivative of a word does not mean they carry the same definition however, and I'm sure you are aware of this. A Christianos would simply mean one who follows THE anointed one, doesn't make the one carrying the name Christian anointed. Nice try but until you can prove Christian means anointed your argument is flawed.

Like I said, it boils down to usage: originally, a Christian meant someone who is born of the Spirit, while today, it means anyone who thinks or says that he follows Christ; it all depends whose definition you want to go by, the original meaning, or the corrupted one.

And for convenience on a superficial level and to avoid misunderstanding, I use the term often loosely as well, or in writing I might exercise the option of putting 'Christian' in inverted commas.
 
a Christian meant someone who is born of the Spirit
maybe I'm just being obtuse but I feel like anointed means someone who is born of the spirit, and Christian simply means a follower of Christ, the anointed one, back then and now. It's interesting that you mention the corrupted one, as in meaning 'Christian' is being used wrongly by JW's, yet 99% of the world who call themselves Christian don't even know Christ, or his father Jehovah. I'm not going down that path with you right now, too tired, maybe another day. It would just be a strong man argument at this point for me, and I'd rather not do that. have a good night. Oh, also, real quick. I was reading a post the other day and somebody mentioned she referring to you. I always thought you were a guy. Not that it matters, its' just weird how perceptions of those on the forum are created in our mind when we have no idea who the other person is. Even if you told me you were a she, I probably wouldn't' believe it anyways lol, so like I said, doesn't matter. Talk again.
 
Like I said, it boils down to usage: originally, a Christian meant someone who is born of the Spirit, while today, it means anyone who thinks or says that he follows Christ; it all depends whose definition you want to go by, the original meaning, or the corrupted one.

And for convenience on a superficial level and to avoid misunderstanding, I use the term often loosely as well, or in writing I might exercise the option of putting 'Christian' in inverted commas.
I agree with your reasoning that only anointed are to rightfully be called true Christians. But I want to add some more on this subject.

Sadducees, Pharisees, Nicolaitans, Christians, the sect of the Nazarenes were all called sects in the Bible.


The word used in the bible for a sect which is αἱρέσεις(aireseis) came from the word αἱρέω which means "choose" or "that which is chosen". So sect can mean "a body of men separating themselves from others and following their own tenets [a sect or party]."

Disciples were called the sect of the Nazarenes by non-Christians. Because they were the group of disciples of Jesus from Nazareth. And Jesus was also known as Christ and people called his followers as Christians, Χριστιανούς. The group of followers of Christ.

Let me try to look into the sects and explain why I conclude this way.


Sadducee Σαδδουκαῖος צָדוק(Tsadoq)

Sadducee is Σαδδουκαῖος(Saddukaios) in Greek and this word derives from the Hebrew word צדוק(Tsadoq) which original form is צֶדֶק(Tsedeq) which means righteousness. Sadducees were called Sadducees because they were righteous? No, צדוק(Tsadoq) was a name of a person who was a high priest in the time of David. His descendants and followers were called Σαδδουκαῖοι(Saddukaioi), צדוקים(plural form of Sadok). Sadducees were followers of Tsadoq.


Pharisee Φαρισαῖος פָרָשׁ(parash)

פָרָשׁ(parash) means to separate. So Pharisee Φαρισαῖος(Pharisaios) literally refers to a separatist. Or one who is separated from sin. It seems the origin of the word is not related to a person's name.


Nicolaitans Νικολαΐτης (Rev 2:6)

Νικολαϊτῶν is used in Rev 2:6 as genitive masculine plural form. It doesn't mean a group of Nicolauses. But followers of Nicolaus.


Christians Χριστιανούς (Acts 11:26)

Accusative masculine plural in Acts 11:26.
Christian means the follower of Christ. It is not a plural form of Christ(Χριστός). But of Christian(Χριστιανός).

And I want to look into Acts 11:6 to know the details of how disciples of Jesus were called Christians.

χρηματίσαι τε πρώτως ἐν Ἀντιοχείᾳ
Were called then first in Antioch

τοὺς μαθητὰς Χριστιανούς
The disciples Christians

Here μαθητὰς(mathetas, masculine plural) means learners, disciples, pupils. Followers of Christ who learn the doctrines of Scripture and the lifestyle they require.

And the interlinear bible I'm referencing put a comma before Χριστιανούς.

Like this
"μαθητὰς, Χριστιανούς."

It means
Μαθητάς(Learners or disciples) = Χριστιανούς(Christians) = Followers of Christ

Considering all of this information, it seems reasonable to conclude that disciples of Christ were called Christians in the meaning of the followers of Christ. Not as a group of Christs(A group of anointed).

Because the word χρηματίσαι(Were called) is somewhat related to 'from God' or 'divine', NWT translates it as a God's provision to be called as Christians. Even though non-Christians first started to call disciples of Jesus as Christians, they absolutely had no idea what being Christians is like.

In the 1st century, Christians must have been anointed. Only anointed consist of the body of the Christ which is a Christian congregation. There are tons of evidence that they must be anointed to be a member of the body of Christ.

Eph 1:22,23
22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

1 Cor 12:13
13 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.

Eph 4:4
4 One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling;

Eph 5:25-27
25 Husbands, continue loving your wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and gave himself up for it, 26 in order that he might sanctify it, cleansing it with the bath of water by means of the word, 27 so that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, without a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but holy and without blemish.

According to the scriptures, only anointed ones are in the body of Christ having Christ as the head. And they are also called the bride of Christ having Christ as the head.

JWs are quite used to expanding the application of scriptures to the other sheep. I think it is quite ok to apply it to the other sheep for their own benefit unless they don't ignore the true meaning of the scriptures. But it seems Jehovah allows some ignorances in this aspect.
 
maybe I'm just being obtuse but I feel like anointed means someone who is born of the spirit, and Christian simply means a follower of Christ, the anointed one, back then and now. It's interesting that you mention the corrupted one, as in meaning 'Christian' is being used wrongly by JW's, yet 99% of the world who call themselves Christian don't even know Christ, or his father Jehovah. I'm not going down that path with you right now, too tired, maybe another day. It would just be a strong man argument at this point for me, and I'd rather not do that. have a good night. Oh, also, real quick. I was reading a post the other day and somebody mentioned she referring to you. I always thought you were a guy. Not that it matters, its' just weird how perceptions of those on the forum are created in our mind when we have no idea who the other person is. Even if you told me you were a she, I probably wouldn't' believe it anyways lol, so like I said, doesn't matter. Talk again.

Certainly, the term anointed means someone who is born of the Spirit, but because all early Christians were born of God, being a Christian was also synonymous with being anointed.

But in today's usage, as you say, being a Christian largely means someone who follows Christ, or identifies with Christianity on a religio-cultural level.

With 'knowing Christ and Jehovah' you probably mean living by what they stand for, rather than merely holding a correct notion of their individual identity and relationship to each other, and in that respect, the former has not benefited much from the latter, as one might think, when it comes to JWs.

I think it is significant and of divine purpose that during the first 70 years of Christianity, which we find documented in the NT, and even the centuries following, there is no mention of followers of Christ with an earthly hope, although every Christian knew that his going to Heaven would be for the purpose of blessing all the nations of the earth, as promised by God to Abraham and his seed, who is Christ and His anointed followers.

Why don't we hear of people being attracted to Christianity, but not aspiring to go to Heaven, and yet continuing to associate with those who do?

Seeing that Christianity from its inception was the preaching of being with Christ in Heaven to bless mankind, how could someone not having this hope be enthusiastic about spreading a message that did not apply to him directly?

For it is written: 'The man who plows ought to plow in hope and the man who threshes ought to do so in hope of being a partaker.' 1 Co 9:10

We read of certain ones who went back into secular life, so perhaps they were not anointed, or didn't count the cost of discipleship and didn't want to give up their prospect to be resurrected as one of those being blessed by the kingdom of Heaven.

Paul said that preaching Christ impaled would be viewed as offensive or foolish by most people, but recognized as God's wisdom by those being saved for Heaven.

By the way, I knew I should have dressed that kitty in blue, but mistakes happen. ;)

Nice talking to you.
 
I agree with your reasoning that only anointed are to rightfully be called true Christians. But I want to add some more on this subject.

Sadducees, Pharisees, Nicolaitans, Christians, the sect of the Nazarenes were all called sects in the Bible.


The word used in the bible for a sect which is αἱρέσεις(aireseis) came from the word αἱρέω which means "choose" or "that which is chosen". So sect can mean "a body of men separating themselves from others and following their own tenets [a sect or party]."

Disciples were called the sect of the Nazarenes by non-Christians. Because they were the group of disciples of Jesus from Nazareth. And Jesus was also known as Christ and people called his followers as Christians, Χριστιανούς. The group of followers of Christ.

Let me try to look into the sects and explain why I conclude this way.


Sadducee Σαδδουκαῖος צָדוק(Tsadoq)

Sadducee is Σαδδουκαῖος(Saddukaios) in Greek and this word derives from the Hebrew word צדוק(Tsadoq) which original form is צֶדֶק(Tsedeq) which means righteousness. Sadducees were called Sadducees because they were righteous? No, צדוק(Tsadoq) was a name of a person who was a high priest in the time of David. His descendants and followers were called Σαδδουκαῖοι(Saddukaioi), צדוקים(plural form of Sadok). Sadducees were followers of Tsadoq.


Pharisee Φαρισαῖος פָרָשׁ(parash)

פָרָשׁ(parash) means to separate. So Pharisee Φαρισαῖος(Pharisaios) literally refers to a separatist. Or one who is separated from sin. It seems the origin of the word is not related to a person's name.


Nicolaitans Νικολαΐτης (Rev 2:6)

Νικολαϊτῶν is used in Rev 2:6 as genitive masculine plural form. It doesn't mean a group of Nicolauses. But followers of Nicolaus.


Christians Χριστιανούς (Acts 11:26)

Accusative masculine plural in Acts 11:26.
Christian means the follower of Christ. It is not a plural form of Christ(Χριστός). But of Christian(Χριστιανός).

And I want to look into Acts 11:6 to know the details of how disciples of Jesus were called Christians.

χρηματίσαι τε πρώτως ἐν Ἀντιοχείᾳ
Were called then first in Antioch

τοὺς μαθητὰς Χριστιανούς
The disciples Christians

Here μαθητὰς(mathetas, masculine plural) means learners, disciples, pupils. Followers of Christ who learn the doctrines of Scripture and the lifestyle they require.

And the interlinear bible I'm referencing put a comma before Χριστιανούς.

Like this
"μαθητὰς, Χριστιανούς."

It means
Μαθητάς(Learners or disciples) = Χριστιανούς(Christians) = Followers of Christ

Considering all of this information, it seems reasonable to conclude that disciples of Christ were called Christians in the meaning of the followers of Christ. Not as a group of Christs(A group of anointed).

Because the word χρηματίσαι(Were called) is somewhat related to 'from God' or 'divine', NWT translates it as a God's provision to be called as Christians. Even though non-Christians first started to call disciples of Jesus as Christians, they absolutely had no idea what being Christians is like.

In the 1st century, Christians must have been anointed. Only anointed consist of the body of the Christ which is a Christian congregation. There are tons of evidence that they must be anointed to be a member of the body of Christ.

Eph 1:22,23
22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

1 Cor 12:13
13 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.

Eph 4:4
4 One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling;

Eph 5:25-27
25 Husbands, continue loving your wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and gave himself up for it, 26 in order that he might sanctify it, cleansing it with the bath of water by means of the word, 27 so that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, without a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but holy and without blemish.

According to the scriptures, only anointed ones are in the body of Christ having Christ as the head. And they are also called the bride of Christ having Christ as the head.

JWs are quite used to expanding the application of scriptures to the other sheep. I think it is quite ok to apply it to the other sheep for their own benefit unless they don't ignore the true meaning of the scriptures. But it seems Jehovah allows some ignorances in this aspect.

Great, thanks for that detailed analysis, which makes a lot of sense.

On your conclusion that, 'disciples of Christ were called Christians in the meaning of the followers of Christ. Not as a group of Christs (A group of anointed),' I would agree that following The Anointed One does not constitute the anointing of those who do so, although those who did so originally all shared in the same experience as That One.

Their anointing does not derive from being called Christians, but all Christians were anointed for the purpose of being in Christ, The Anointed One.
 

This wonderful article by Robert King settles the question as to who are the true Christians.​

Will Christianity Survive the End of the World?​

A consideration of the 27th chapter of Isaiah and related prophecies, originally published in 2010.
The question of which shall end first—Christianity or the world—may seem like a strange topic to even consider. No doubt Jehovah’s Witnesses naturally assume that true Christianity will without question outlive, not only the present evil world, but especially that brand of counterfeit Christianity known as Christendom. Jehovah’s Witnesses likely consider it a moot question in view of the authoritative statement made by the April 15, 1962, Watchtower, in this regard:
“The end of Christendom does not mean the end of Christianity, for Christendom and Christianity are two different, separate things…Christianity could not end after Christendom’s destruction in Armageddon.”
As the Watchtower correctly states, Christianity and Christendom are two different things. But the question remains: Will true Christianity survive the end of this world? With the reader’s curiosity now piqued, the purpose of this article is to more closely examine the relevant portions of the only book that can shed light upon these vital matters—the Bible.
For certainty, Jehovah’s Witnesses have a unique understanding of the Holy Scriptures – recognizing that Jehovah’s intentions to save mankind are two-fold. The first phase of God’s purpose is to gather a select group of 144,000 anointed Christians from among mankind to serve with Christ as kings and priests in his heavenly kingdom during the 1,000-year rehabilitation of mankind. They experience the first resurrection.
The second stage of the divine purpose is to gather and prepare a family of believers to stay on earth after the end of this wicked world in order to re-inhabit the earth and physically transform it into paradise. Indeed, God’s everlasting Word assures the believer that the meek will inherit the earth and reside forever upon it.

However, in the strictest definition only anointed individuals are truly Christians. The word Christ literally means “anointed one.” And the designation “Christians” applies specifically to the small body of anointed followers of Christ. Also, only anointed Christians are in a covenant relationship with Jehovah through Christ—Jesus serving as their mediator with God Almighty. Also, in the most precise interpretation only anointed Christians comprise the true Israel of God. So, to dispel any unease over the topic at hand concerning whether Christianity will survive this world, it is in the strictest definition of Christianity that the question is framed.

Acknowledging, then, the classical sense of the word “Christianity,” the question is now rephrased to say: Will the anointed survive the end of the world? Read more> https://e-watchman.com/will-christianity-survive-the-end-of-the-world/
 
Certainly, the term anointed means someone who is born of the Spirit, but because all early Christians were born of God, being a Christian was also synonymous with being anointed.

But in today's usage, as you say, being a Christian largely means someone who follows Christ, or identifies with Christianity on a religio-cultural level.

With 'knowing Christ and Jehovah' you probably mean living by what they stand for, rather than merely holding a correct notion of their individual identity and relationship to each other, and in that respect, the former has not benefited much from the latter, as one might think, when it comes to JWs.

I think it is significant and of divine purpose that during the first 70 years of Christianity, which we find documented in the NT, and even the centuries following, there is no mention of followers of Christ with an earthly hope, although every Christian knew that his going to Heaven would be for the purpose of blessing all the nations of the earth, as promised by God to Abraham and his seed, who is Christ and His anointed followers.

Why don't we hear of people being attracted to Christianity, but not aspiring to go to Heaven, and yet continuing to associate with those who do?

Seeing that Christianity from its inception was the preaching of being with Christ in Heaven to bless mankind, how could someone not having this hope be enthusiastic about spreading a message that did not apply to him directly?

For it is written: 'The man who plows ought to plow in hope and the man who threshes ought to do so in hope of being a partaker.' 1 Co 9:10

We read of certain ones who went back into secular life, so perhaps they were not anointed, or didn't count the cost of discipleship and didn't want to give up their prospect to be resurrected as one of those being blessed by the kingdom of Heaven.

Paul said that preaching Christ impaled would be viewed as offensive or foolish by most people, but recognized as God's wisdom by those being saved for Heaven.

By the way, I knew I should have dressed that kitty in blue, but mistakes happen. ;)

Nice talking to you.
Cristo said: I was reading a post the other day and somebody mentioned she referring to you. I always thought you were a guy. Not that it matters, its' just weird how perceptions of those on the forum are created in our mind when we have no idea who the other person is. Even if you told me you were a she, I probably wouldn't' believe it anyways lol, so like I said, doesn't matter. Talk again.

Posstot replied back "By the way, I knew I should have dressed that kitty in blue, but mistakes happen. ;)

So your real gender is a male and when you were confronted or should I say forced in a corner you had no choice but to admit it or else you would be labeled as a deceptive liar - So in order to save face you made up this lame excuse that you made a mistake by dressing up the kitty in pink instead of blue, most people might buy that lame excuse but I for one am not buying it because you had plenty of time to correct that error and make it known to others about your true gender as being a male, so instead you let the deception go forward for whatever deceptive intent you had in mind.

Your father Satan the devil would be proud of you.​

And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.​

2 Corinthians 11:14-15

The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much. Luke 16: 10

 
Cristo said: I was reading a post the other day and somebody mentioned she referring to you. I always thought you were a guy. Not that it matters, its' just weird how perceptions of those on the forum are created in our mind when we have no idea who the other person is. Even if you told me you were a she, I probably wouldn't' believe it anyways lol, so like I said, doesn't matter. Talk again.

Posstot replied back "By the way, I knew I should have dressed that kitty in blue, but mistakes happen. ;)

So your real gender is a male and when you were confronted or should I say forced in a corner you had no choice but to admit it or else you would be labeled as a deceptive liar - So in order to save face you made up this lame excuse that you made a mistake by dressing up the kitty in pink instead of blue, most people might buy that lame excuse but I for one am not buying it because you had plenty of time to correct that error and make it known to others about your true gender as being a male, so instead you let the deception go forward for whatever deceptive intent you had in mind.

Your father Satan the devil would be proud of you.​

And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.​

2 Corinthians 11:14-15

The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much. Luke 16: 10


Kevin, do you know what this emoji ;) means?

It means 'tongue in cheek.'

I chose my picture because I liked it, and it didn't occur to me, or wasn't on my mind at the time, that some people might draw a conclusion about the sex of the poster from it, which I consider irrelevant, since I don't perceive this to be a dating site - 'e-watchman's list,' anyone? ;) - because truth, which is what I imagine we are all here for, does not have sex or gender expression, although in the Hebrew one never knows. ;)

I am not a professional in the field of psychology, but I think you would benefit from an increased sense of humor. ;)

While truth itself is not funny, us failed humans grappling with it often is. ;)
 
Quote article: " . . . Christianity and Christendom are two different things."

Yes, but not the way the WT sees it, because Christendom is simply the geographic and intellectual realm where Christianity operates, and that the WT so ungratefully and hypocritically takes advantage of; let them shift their headquarters and operations to Afghanistan and go preaching there, if they despise 'Christendom' so much.

And besides, the corruption and decline of Christianity is largely due to its age old enemy, who has a kingdom over the kings of the earth, as we are witnessing right now.
 
That’s really crazy how similar our experiences are!!😳 Only, my husband, while he’s supportive, has not quite been on the same journey as I have. I had been feeling this urge to get into the Bible itself for years, but I’d always end up feeling bad that I wasn’t getting my “studying” done. So I tried so many times to do both, but it just wouldn’t happen. There’s a deadline on studying, so it would get the priority, sadly. Then, like you said, with the pandemic ..it was “Nope! The Bible HAS to be my priority! That’s it!”

We, also, got baptized as teenagers, only we weren’t born in. But you make me laugh, because I’ve also, just recently, told my husband that I want to be re-baptized in the name of Jesus😅 My husband was kind of irritated, thinking I wanted to be baptized into some other religion. But no, I just have this desire to be baptized properly in the name of Jesus. I’ve been trying to work out the logistics because I really don’t have anyone to baptize me and I don’t really have my husband’s full support as of yet. So that’s so funny! You’re talking to someone who absolutely doesn’t think it’s hogwash at all😂😂 I wanted to say, also, thank you for any prayers that you guys may send in my behalf to be able to see clearly what I should do. I definitely could use all the help in understanding that I can get!🤗

It’s also really interesting that I haven’t been on here for quite some time, just due to personal circumstances …but something just drew me to this thread first off! I’m so glad cause I’ve just been so enjoying this discussion …so much so, that I’m up way too late too lol. Btw, which chapter in Acts was it? I’ve been busy reading the letters and the Gospels, but I haven’t been into Acts for a good, long time. I’ve actually been wanting to go over all the accounts of baptism in the NT …that’s my project I’ve been wanting to start …but haven’t quite yet😝

And thank you! I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading all your posts on this thread and the resulting replies😁👍🏼
That is so wild!!! I can relate so much to your story. I felt the same way for so long. My husband too, especially him at first actually. I always loved the Bible, since I was a kid. I tried to teach myself Greek once because I was trying to read a copy of my mom's Greek Interlinear Bible. I was like seven loool... But anyways, the Bible hit the back burner and we just tried to get our study done - Watchtower, book study, etc... My husband was kind of frustrated about it, or maybe just bored. I like studying anything so I did okay with it, and I frequently enjoyed it too. But I always felt like I was missing something.

I got a little bit of goosebumps reading you had the same thought about baptism lol!!! My husband and I kept saying it to each other but also in shock, haha... we are kind of lucky that way because we have a pool. We feel really compelled about it. It's hard to really describe!

I'm glad you came here and were so drawn to this thread too. It's a great comfort meeting people and finding they have such similar trains of thought! ... I think it was in Acts 21. I think Posstot mentioned it... if my phone wasn't so difficult to navigate on while I also have my reply open, Id be able to make sure thats the right spot... I don't have my Bible with me just now...

I hope you come back to keep discussing too. I'm up late reading these things lately too haha... got all my different versions of the Bibe open now and way too many notebooks going on hahaha....

What was the exact moment for you that hit you off to, "Now it HAS to be the Bible" as the only priority, I'm curious 😀
 
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