Disfellowship is it Christian? And shunning ?

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Paz

Well-known member
It has existed amongst Jehovah’s Witnesses since 1954 as an existing witness I am not happy with it. My aunts were Bible students in the 1920’s my grandmother in the 1930’s and my Dad was baptised during Judge Rutherford time as President of the WT. what is your view?
 
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jorn

jorn

Active member

Let Your Kingdom Come - December 31​

It has been discussed very much in this thread.😁
 
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Paz

Well-known member
Not really! it mentioned one person who says they want child abusers disfellowshipped, its good for unrepentant wrongdoers. This sounds like a Jehovah’s Witness view. What is the ex witness view? What is the Bible Student View?
instead or an emotional response what is the Biblical View? And how about Jesus Christs view?
Bible Students in pastor Russells day did not approve it or adopt it. With the 100k + disfellowshippings in the watchtower why then was there so many Child abuse cases only resolved by Caesars court action outside of the religion If disfellowshipping works?
The reason that this issue is the most critical and the major one the GB will be held to account from Jehovah.
Jesus said that his followers belong to him they were purchased with his blood. The apostles and older men were assigned as under-shepherds to care for Christs sheep. Much is said about wolves in sheep’s clothing and identifies the evil slave by his ‘beating’ his fellow slaves and eating with spiritual drunkards (UN & associated court cases). The beating is the fear created in the congregations the expelling and the shunning. As others on this site have said this behavour has ruined the so called spiritual paradise. Some have said such paradise will come in the future and I agree. The second book by Raymond Franz explains how this evil disfellowshipping process began and why. Robert is right that up to date prophesy explaining the final coming of Christ has been overlooked by the GB. Since it condemns them for justice from Jehovah and his Son.
 
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T

therecluse

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January 1, 2022 - There also will be false teachers among you​


That is the thread you should read.
 
Cherry

Cherry

Well-known member
The issue of expulsion has brought a lot of controversy. However, it is obvious that expulsion is a biblical command for those who do not repent of their sins. I don't think I need to use Biblical quotes to prove it. That said, I think this doctrine has also been taken to the extreme by the WT. Jesus gave the steps to follow when someone commits a sin and does not repent. Matthew 18: 15-17.

"Whether for you as a man of the nations or a tax collector" does not imply denying them communication. It is one thing not to have close contact or familiarity, and quite another to be ostracized. The latter is in no way Christian. Christ even spoke with the Devil, can there be someone more sinful than him? ...

Our Lord dealt with and even ate with sinners and tax collectors. He came for the spiritually ill, those who had been ostracized most cruelly. We must copy our compassionate Pastor. We must treat our neighbor with dignity and even more so if he is a sinner. We must not forget that he has been our brother. Denying him a minimum of communication is not the correct behavior. On the contrary, it is completely closing the door and leaving him at the mercy of the Devil.

Our duty is to maintain a minimum of communication with the intention of recovering you again. Apostates also deserve dignity because they are also our neighbor. However, in that case they are opponents of Jehovah and his Son. So we have to be extremely careful not to get carried away. Let us bear in mind that for the WT apostates are those who contradict its mandates and doctrines. We know that this is not the case.
 
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Paz

Well-known member
This answer indicates that you do feel the Christian congregation has scriptural reasons to expel ex communicate and disfellowship to maintain cleanness in the congregation this I cannot agree with what’s so ever. The scriptures used do not provide a real excuse for this. I have experienced this evil policy and 100k ‘s of ex witnesses maybe up to a million+ over the years have been unchristianly expelled. Since 1874 till 1953 it was not WT policy. The only elder who practiced this apostate practice was Diotrephes 3John in the first century and was condemned by the apostle John.
jesus ‘I came to save not to judge’. To Peter he asked him do you love me? Shepherd my sheep. He repelated this 3 times never mentioning Judging. In fact a literal shepherd never Judges his sheep. When is it the time for Jesus to judge? Not Yet. If Jesus has not started Judging yet who is any man to start! Jews feared to become followers of Christ in the first century due to the apostate practices of the synagogue of expelling.
So how do we deal with Christians who are sinning ? The congregation cannot be kept clean we are all sinners. What did Jesus do? Read John 8: 1-11 interesting the GB excluded this portion to their revised bible version.
Men wanted to judge the prostitute and quoted the law but Jesus said ‘he who has no sin, cast the first stone.’
He only suggested she practice sin no more. Another crafty addition Knorr made was sinning without showing repentance entitled elders to ex communicate their brother to enable him to repent. Humans cannot read hearts only Christ can and he chooses not to yet judge. This put these judges in an impossible position even the GB has never disfellowshippEd anybody. Raymond Franz voluntarily left the GB 2 years later a committee of three elders of GC class did so on spurious grounds. Most certainly men cannot de baptise a person, Satan may feel he can try but not men. So how did Jesus deal with wrongdoers and apostates. To one young righteous Jew he said ‘follow me’ he made excuses and left. Others deciples he stumblEd they walked away in disgust. He turned to Peter and said ‘are you going as well?’
Any reading of the gospels shows that Christs followers were consistently badly behaved arguing, who is better, hundreds of times he was left on his own while they argued. An example the woman at the well. When his followers did arrive they were United in there feelings of him wasting his time with Samaritans. These ones he called his children, they really were, children are not fit to judge on another. Judas Iscariat betrayed Jesus as an apostate Jesus never felt any need to set up a committee of apostles to expel him from the body of followers, followers left when they wanted too. Human were given free will in the garden of Eden. In fact Jesus said in Mth 7:1-5 ‘ Do Not Judge‘ . So we as followers of Christ have no right to judge anybody anytime anywhere. Any other approach in lacking in humility and putting ourselves above Christ. My next comment will explain why the introduction of this teaching into JWs in 1954 was the beginning of the evil slave growth. Former Governing Body Member Raymond Franz provides the answer in his book ‘ in Search of Christian Freedom chapter 2’ there is an excerpt from a Court case in Scotland in 1954. This is where the leading society’s officers clearly opted to copy the Catholic churches position regarding ‘ministers and the change of the organisation’s disciplinary policy. (The introduction of excommunication called disfellowship). This ensured that civil authorities of Great Britain and its commonwealth recognised the organisation as an established religion. My fear is for the rank and file of over 8million existing brothers and sisters who have slaved for Jehovah preaching and carry his divine name While being misled. This misleading is increasing with the cessation of the public preaching work and the closure of Kingdom Halls after government ending of restriction. Thank you dear Brothers.
 
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Cherry

Cherry

Well-known member
Paz said:
Esta respuesta indica que usted siente que la congregación cristiana tiene razones bíblicas para expulsar a los ex comunicantes y la expulsión para mantener la limpieza en la congregación, esto no puedo estar de acuerdo con lo que es así. Las escrituras utilizadas no proporcionan una verdadera excusa para esto. He experimentado esta política malvada y 100 mil de ex testigos tal vez hasta un millón + a lo largo de los años han sido expulsados sin cristianismo. Desde 1874 hasta 1953 no fue política de WT. El único anciano que practicó esta práctica apóstata fue Diótrefes 3 Juan en el primer siglo y fue condenado por el apóstol Juan.
Jesús 'Vine a salvar, no a juzgar'. A Peter le preguntó: ¿me amas? Pastorea mis ovejas. Repitió esto 3 veces sin mencionar nunca juzgar. De hecho, un pastor literal nunca juzga a sus ovejas. ¿Cuándo es el momento de que Jesús juzgue? Aún no. Si Jesús aún no ha comenzado a juzgar, ¿quién es el hombre para comenzar? Los judíos temían convertirse en seguidores de Cristo en el primer siglo debido a las prácticas apóstatas de la sinagoga de expulsar.
Entonces, ¿cómo tratamos con los cristianos que están pecando? La congregación no puede mantenerse limpia, todos somos pecadores. ¿Qué hizo Jesús? Lea Juan 8: 1-11 interesante, el GB excluyó esta porción de su versión bíblica revisada.
Los hombres querían juzgar a la prostituta y citaron la ley, pero Jesús dijo 'el que no tiene pecado, lanza la primera piedra'.
Él solo sugirió que ella no practicara más el pecado. Otra astuta adición que hizo Knorr fue pecar sin mostrar arrepentimiento y los ancianos tenían derecho a comunicarse con su hermano para permitirle arrepentirse. Los seres humanos no pueden leer los corazones que solo Cristo puede y él elige no juzgar todavía. Esto puso a estos jueces en una posición imposible, incluso el GB nunca ha expulsado a nadie. Raymond Franz abandonó voluntariamente el GB 2 años después, un comité de tres ancianos de la clase GC lo hizo por motivos falsos. Ciertamente, los hombres no pueden desbautizar a una persona, Satanás puede sentir que puede intentarlo, pero no los hombres. Entonces, ¿cómo trató Jesús a los malhechores y apóstatas? A un joven judío justo le dijo 'sígueme', se excusó y se fue. Otros deciples que tropezó, se alejaron con disgusto. Se volvió hacia Peter y le dijo '¿tú también vas?'
Cualquier lectura de los evangelios muestra que los seguidores de Cristo se portaban constantemente mal discutiendo, quién es mejor, cientos de veces se quedó solo mientras discutían. Un ejemplo, la mujer del pozo. Cuando llegaron sus seguidores, se sentían unidos por la sensación de que estaba perdiendo el tiempo con los samaritanos. Estos a los que llamaba sus hijos, realmente lo eran, los niños no son aptos para juzgar a los demás. Judas Iscariat traicionó a Jesús como un apóstata Jesús nunca sintió la necesidad de establecer un comité de apóstoles para expulsarlo del cuerpo de seguidores, los seguidores también se marcharon cuando quisieron. A los humanos se les dio libre albedrío en el jardín del Edén. De hecho Jesús dijo en Mth 7: 1-5 'No juzguéis'. Así que nosotros, como seguidores de Cristo, no tenemos derecho a juzgar a nadie en ningún momento y en ningún lugar. Cualquier otro enfoque en carecer de humildad y ponernos por encima de Cristo. Mi siguiente comentario explicará por qué la introducción de esta enseñanza en los TJ en 1953 fue el comienzo del crecimiento de los esclavos malvados. Mi temor es por la base de más de 8 millones de hermanos y hermanas que han trabajado como esclavos para la predicación de Jehová y llevan su nombre divino. Gracias queridos hermanos.
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No sé qué Biblias leíste, pero las que he leído dejan en claro que el pecador impenitente debe estar alejado de la congregación. Como ya he dicho, no estoy de acuerdo con el aislamiento absoluto, pero entiendo que la manzana podrida puede estropear el resto y hay que dejarla a un lado. Es una medida preventiva o protectora, que también debe hacer reconsiderar al pecador.

También me gustaría añadir que tampoco estoy de acuerdo con los comités judiciales de WT a puerta cerrada. Los juicios en Israel generalmente se llevaban a cabo a las puertas de Jerusalén, a la vista del mundo entero. Asimismo, en el primer siglo, el pecador fue expuesto abiertamente en la congregación. De esta forma fue imposible pervertir los juicios. Los ensayos dentro del WT dejan mucho que desear.
 
Cherry

Cherry

Well-known member
Paz said:
This answer indicates that you do feel the Christian congregation has scriptural reasons to expel ex communicate and disfellowship to maintain cleanness in the congregation this I cannot agree with what’s so ever. The scriptures used do not provide a real excuse for this. I have experienced this evil policy and 100k ‘s of ex witnesses maybe up to a million+ over the years have been unchristianly expelled. Since 1874 till 1953 it was not WT policy. The only elder who practiced this apostate practice was Diotrephes 3John in the first century and was condemned by the apostle John.
jesus ‘I came to save not to judge’. To Peter he asked him do you love me? Shepherd my sheep. He repelated this 3 times never mentioning Judging. In fact a literal shepherd never Judges his sheep. When is it the time for Jesus to judge? Not Yet. If Jesus has not started Judging yet who is any man to start! Jews feared to become followers of Christ in the first century due to the apostate practices of the synagogue of expelling.
So how do we deal with Christians who are sinning ? The congregation cannot be kept clean we are all sinners. What did Jesus do? Read John 8: 1-11 interesting the GB excluded this portion to their revised bible version.
Men wanted to judge the prostitute and quoted the law but Jesus said ‘he who has no sin, cast the first stone.’
He only suggested she practice sin no more. Another crafty addition Knorr made was sinning without showing repentance entitled elders to ex communicate their brother to enable him to repent. Humans cannot read hearts only Christ can and he chooses not to yet judge. This put these judges in an impossible position even the GB has never disfellowshippEd anybody. Raymond Franz voluntarily left the GB 2 years later a committee of three elders of GC class did so on spurious grounds. Most certainly men cannot de baptise a person, Satan may feel he can try but not men. So how did Jesus deal with wrongdoers and apostates. To one young righteous Jew he said ‘follow me’ he made excuses and left. Others deciples he stumblEd they walked away in disgust. He turned to Peter and said ‘are you going as well?’
Any reading of the gospels shows that Christs followers were consistently badly behaved arguing, who is better, hundreds of times he was left on his own while they argued. An example the woman at the well. When his followers did arrive they were United in there feelings of him wasting his time with Samaritans. These ones he called his children, they really were, children are not fit to judge on another. Judas Iscariat betrayed Jesus as an apostate Jesus never felt any need to set up a committee of apostles to expel him from the body of followers, followers left when they wanted too. Human were given free will in the garden of Eden. In fact Jesus said in Mth 7:1-5 ‘ Do Not Judge‘ . So we as followers of Christ have no right to judge anybody anytime anywhere. Any other approach in lacking in humility and putting ourselves above Christ. My next comment will explain why the introduction of this teaching into JWs in 1953 was the beginning of the evil slave growth. My fear is for the rank and file over 8million existing brothers and sisters who have slaved for Jehovah preaching and carry his divine name. Thank you dear Brothers.
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I don't know which Bibles you read, but the ones I have read make it clear that the unrepentant sinner must be distanced from the congregation. As I have already said, I do not agree with the absolute isolation, but I understand that the rotten apple can spoil the rest and must be put aside. It is a preventive or protective measure, which must also make the sinner reconsider.

I would also like to add that I also do not agree with the WT judicial committees behind closed doors. Trials in Israel were generally held at the gates of Jerusalem, in full view of the whole world. Likewise in the first century the sinner was openly exposed in the congregation. In this way it was impossible to pervert the judgments. Trials within the WT leave much to be desired.
 
P

Posstot

Guest
Paz said:
With the 100k + disfellowshippings in the watchtower why then was there so many Child abuse cases only resolved by Caesars court action outside of the religion If disfellowshipping works?
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Penalties do little to effect deterrence on perpetrators.

To the small degree that there is a causal relationship between the two, there should have been more disfellowshipings and stricter enforcement rather than less.

This concept of 'penalties don't work, lets liberalize' is also used in the war against the 'war on drugs,' by the purveyors of the 'critical method.'
 
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Ireneo

Ireneo

Well-known member
The letter to the Corinthians makes it clear that the unrepentant sinner was expelled
The issue is that this resource is abused and sometimes wrongly expelled
But that doesn't mean that expelling is wrong
The issue of closed-door committees is truly based on confidentiality
The sinner needs confidentiality to seek help
Would someone be motivated to share private topics with the entire congregation?
He would hardly do it, that is why confidential secrecy is required when dealing with personal matters
It is also clear that there are laws
If you cause harm to someone by telling something confidential, you can be sued
For this reason, to protect privacy and avoid conflicts and demands, committees of 3 members are made.
The problem is not the system or method
The problem is the people
You can have the best system and the wrong people will make it fail
You can have the worst protocols and spiritual people will make it work.
When someone is expelled, the elders who vote for expulsion are WITNESSES before the congregation
They carry a burden before jehovah
If they are FALSE WITNESSES they will be punished
What makes the system work or fail are the people
Unfortunately, the GB has poorly trained many elders and has developed regulations that make many injustices commented on.
Likewise, most of those expelled have been expelled correctly.
There have been injustices, it is true, but that is not why we should eliminate the expulsion system because it is biblical.
 
Ireneo

Ireneo

Well-known member
It is true that as cherry comments, in ancient times many subjects were made in front of everyone
But today there are laws that did not exist then and affect our procedures
The personal data law in force in many countries would prevent talking about the privacy of people in public
This shows that what was done centuries ago today cannot be done.
The procedures of the congregation are crossed by many laws
The door is closed and no recording is allowed to avoid lawsuits
The point is that this can be abusive IF THOSE WHO DO IT ARE NOT SPIRITUAL
I emphasize again, the problem is not the expulsion but the people
 
P

Posstot

Guest
Ireneo said:
But today there are laws that did not exist then and affect our procedures
The personal data law in force in many countries would prevent talking about the privacy of people in public
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Privacy can be consented to being waved on a case by case basis if desired by the accused party; this provision needs to be available in order to at least mitigate against the vagaries of the 'human element.'
 
TheJehuChariot

TheJehuChariot

Well-known member
There is a difference between a Christian falling to weakness of fleshly sin "(i.e: fornication~ in a manner that doesn't affect the congregation directly) versus child molesters. The latter being repugnant, wicked and evil. Do you know how many witnesses are callously disfellowshipped due to committing immorality with another adult and/or had concealed a sin from time ago yet had striven to alter such course yet are still disfellowshipped based on such? I'm in no way attempting to water down God's holiness and I fully understand the ramifications of not controlling one's body members as scripture states and Paul relates the body is not meant for fornication.

However, Paul's first letter to the Corinthians exhorted the congregation to expel the "wicked" man whom was committing acts "worse than the nations". Meaning, he was committing immorality with his father’s wife. Something even to today's standards would be deemed "shocking". Yet, even though the man was labeled "wicked" by Paul, in his 2nd letter to the Corinthians (written within the same year), he told the congregation to reinstate him for he obviously repented and he did not want him to become overly saddened.

So two points to take away from that, though I recognize "fornicators" will not inherit God's kingdom (particularly the Chosen Ones held to a higher standard), there seems to be a more egregious form of sin that can be deemed "wicked" like that of child molesters, sleeping with step mothers, certain adulterers etc.). I have first-hand heard elders very often and even very recent disfellowshipping ones due to fleshly weakness that may seem "not necessarily wicked " even though the person seemed suffering with remorse and just fell to weakness. I've heard "the time has to fit the crime". Meaning, "you'll need to be disfellowshipped at least a year plus", etc. Paul sought to reinstate the repentant "wicked" man within the span of both letters...less than a year. So, it highlights that expulsion was not done to make penance for a sin, but rather to readjust the person. Humans seem to enjoy “punishing for bad deeds”.

How do you identify repentance? It’s not as easy as just quoting scripture regarding "works befitting repentance". And therein lies the "Catch22". If an elder "doesn't like you", or enjoys retribution for one concealing a sin, even though the person has finally confessed and/or declares repentance, the person can be judged harshly and thrown out. Then, as punishment the elder(s) keep the person locked out until they grovel their way back. Spanish congregations can be particularly ruthless. Whatever the case, the entire disfellowshipping arrangement is absolutely abused/misused. I realize Paul was inspired to write his letters, but I also think there are times he is taken out of context in some cases and he would be concerned with his words being used in a way he necessarily wouldn't have enacted in his time.

The disfellowshipping arrangement and committees should be overhauled and re-examined. The "Flock" book has become way too intrusive into people’s personal affairs w/the knowing all the nitty, gritty details of human’s failings. In some cases, it acts like a confessional in the catholic church. Confession begins first with Jehovah, then find your way to the elders to be greased with oil since so many can’t find the ability to pray to God after sin. But elders seem to view the confession to them primarily. As an elder, the first thing I would ask someone confessing a sin is "Have you first confessed your transgressions to Jehovah from your knees privately?" (The Commentary of James book is an incredible book regarding confession and the purpose of elders. They all should be instructed to read the book.)

Also, the extreme way witnesses are admonished to not even acknowledge a disfellowshipped person at the meeting and/or in public and also towards family members has gotten overtly extreme and too generalized. (Yes, its true Pauls' words quote "don't even greet such a man". Once again, I digress as per above, I believe there are extenuating circumstances for everyone and that there are sins deemed "wicked" and others less egregious due to fleshly weakness.

But if one has never been disfellowshipped, reproved and/or shunned and is one who "enjoys" punishing others for bad deeds, then I guess the arrangement is like a box of chocolates. I really hope the verse @ John 8:11 conveniently removed from NWT Scripture where Jesus supposedly said to the woman, "Go and sin no more", actually occurred. It highlights Jesus’ practicality and immense tender love...
 
Cherry

Cherry

Well-known member
Ireneo said:
The letter to the Corinthians makes it clear that the unrepentant sinner was expelled
The issue is that this resource is abused and sometimes wrongly expelled
But that doesn't mean that expelling is wrong
The issue of closed-door committees is truly based on confidentiality
The sinner needs confidentiality to seek help
Would someone be motivated to share private topics with the entire congregation?
He would hardly do it, that is why confidential secrecy is required when dealing with personal matters
It is also clear that there are laws
If you cause harm to someone by telling something confidential, you can be sued
For this reason, to protect privacy and avoid conflicts and demands, committees of 3 members are made.
The problem is not the system or method
The problem is the people
You can have the best system and the wrong people will make it fail
Puede tener los peores protocolos y las personas espirituales lo harán funcionar.
Cuando alguien es expulsado, los ancianos que votan por la expulsión son TESTIGOS ante la congregación.
Llevan una carga ante jehová
Si son FALSOS TESTIGOS serán castigados
Lo que hace que el sistema funcione o falle son las personas
Desafortunadamente, el GB ha entrenado mal a muchos ancianos y ha desarrollado regulaciones que hacen que se comenten muchas injusticias.
Asimismo, la mayoría de los expulsados han sido expulsados correctamente.
Ha habido injusticias, es cierto, pero no es por eso que debamos eliminar el sistema de expulsión porque es bíblico.
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Ireneo said:
The letter to the Corinthians makes it clear that the unrepentant sinner was expelled
The issue is that this resource is abused and sometimes wrongly expelled
But that doesn't mean that expelling is wrong
The issue of closed-door committees is truly based on confidentiality
The sinner needs confidentiality to seek help
Would someone be motivated to share private topics with the entire congregation?
He would hardly do it, that is why confidential secrecy is required when dealing with personal matters
It is also clear that there are laws
If you cause harm to someone by telling something confidential, you can be sued
For this reason, to protect privacy and avoid conflicts and demands, committees of 3 members are made.
The problem is not the system or method
The problem is the people
You can have the best system and the wrong people will make it fail
You can have the worst protocols and spiritual people will make it work.
When someone is expelled, the elders who vote for expulsion are WITNESSES before the congregation
They carry a burden before jehovah
If they are FALSE WITNESSES they will be punished
What makes the system work or fail are the people
Unfortunately, the GB has poorly trained many elders and has developed regulations that make many injustices commented on.
Likewise, most of those expelled have been expelled correctly.
There have been injustices, it is true, but that is not why we should eliminate the expulsion system because it is biblical.
Click to expand...
I agree that there must be a system of judgment within the congregation, but the sinner must be given the opportunity to have witnesses by his side at his own trial. That would prevent abuse. The elders would think twice before abusing their authority.

In any case, I still believe that expulsion should not lead to solitary confinement. It is one thing to avoid the close relationship, and quite another to not cross any words. Expulsion of the unrepentant yes, absolute isolation no. You just have to study the way Jesus treated sinners. He also said: "With the judgment that they judge, they will be judged." It is a sentence.
 
Nomex

Nomex

Well-known member
Jehu, I really appreciate your take on this matter. My father was an elder for decades. For reasons I'm not going to go into to detail I never reached out myself, but I know a LOT about elders and how they invariably abuse their power and position almost to a man. (Maybe I'm being over harsh but it's been my observation from being a witness for decades and having two brothers as elders as well.) I think the first problem starts with this notion the elders are appointed by holy spirit. They clearly ARE NOT. This is EXACTLY why we have this problem with the GB. It's the same extremely arrogant attitude towards their positions. First of all, the congregations appoint elders by means of Inspired instruction from the Bible. But they are appointed by imperfect men and it is impossible for them NOT to make mistakes. The same is true with the GB. It's irrelevant even if they are the "Faithful Slave" to imply their instruction is infallible, which is what they are doing when they say "we are Jehovah's channel" The only way they could NOT make mistakes is if angels were directly directing the congregations. This is why Jehovah values humility above all other human qualities. But even Moses, "the meekest man on the earth" gave in to some measure of arrogance when he took credit for bringing forth the water from the rock.


The other problem is I think you were touching on Jehu, is when you meet with the Elders they are supposed to "pour oil on your head". I'm not saying this is never the case, but I don't think they really know what that means. I am convinced the Elders think any "serious sin" reported to almost all elders they are convinced they have no choice other they some form of humiliating "discipline".

But just to illustrate how completely hypocritical it all is, is how they treat child molesters. It it the law in the US and most countries, any crime against a child has to be reported to the police. This should be a no brainer to anyone with an kind of moral code and ethics. Someone accused of something like this should be investigated and if the GB really cared about submitting to Jehovah's "superior authorities" placed there by him they would follow the "law of the land". Anyone NOT reporting this should be removed as an elder! But everyone here knows what they actually do.

So I agree, there is certainly a distinction between "wicked" and immorality. I would also agree disfellowshipping under certain circumstances are justified, but I also know personally of how it is abused!

Again it all comes down to that famous saying from Lord Acton, "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." This is what has happened with the GB as well I am certain of it, at least in part! This is also why Jesus is the only King and the only one we should follow. NONE, of the anointed have been sealed and made perfect! And this really is what they are implying with "we are Jehovah's channel" that they cannot and do not make mistakes, which would make them perfect! It's really comical when you look at it like I just broke it down in this last paragraph.
 
Cherry

Cherry

Well-known member
TheJehuChariot said:
There is a difference between a Christian falling to weakness of fleshly sin "(i.e: fornication~ in a manner that doesn't affect the congregation directly) versus child molesters. The latter being repugnant, wicked and evil. Do you know how many witnesses are callously disfellowshipped due to committing immorality with another adult and/or had concealed a sin from time ago yet had striven to alter such course yet are still disfellowshipped based on such? I'm in no way attempting to water down God's holiness and I fully understand the ramifications of not controlling one's body members as scripture states and Paul relates the body is not meant for fornication.

However, Paul's first letter to the Corinthians exhorted the congregation to expel the "wicked" man whom was committing acts "worse than the nations". Meaning, he was committing immorality with his father’s wife. Something even to today's standards would be deemed "shocking". Yet, even though the man was labeled "wicked" by Paul, in his 2nd letter to the Corinthians (written within the same year), he told the congregation to reinstate him for he obviously repented and he did not want him to become overly saddened.

So two points to take away from that, though I recognize "fornicators" will not inherit God's kingdom (particularly the Chosen Ones held to a higher standard), there seems to be a more egregious form of sin that can be deemed "wicked" like that of child molesters, sleeping with step mothers, certain adulterers etc.). I have first-hand heard elders very often and even very recent disfellowshipping ones due to fleshly weakness that may seem "not necessarily wicked " even though the person seemed suffering with remorse and just fell to weakness. I've heard "the time has to fit the crime". Meaning, "you'll need to be disfellowshipped at least a year plus", etc. Paul sought to reinstate the repentant "wicked" man within the span of both letters...less than a year. So, it highlights that expulsion was not done to make penance for a sin, but rather to readjust the person. Humans seem to enjoy “punishing for bad deeds”.

How do you identify repentance? It’s not as easy as just quoting scripture regarding "works befitting repentance". And therein lies the "Catch22". If an elder "doesn't like you", or enjoys retribution for one concealing a sin, even though the person has finally confessed and/or declares repentance, the person can be judged harshly and thrown out. Then, as punishment the elder(s) keep the person locked out until they grovel their way back. Spanish congregations can be particularly ruthless. Whatever the case, the entire disfellowshipping arrangement is absolutely abused/misused. I realize Paul was inspired to write his letters, but I also think there are times he is taken out of context in some cases and he would be concerned with his words being used in a way he necessarily wouldn't have enacted in his time.

The disfellowshipping arrangement and committees should be overhauled and re-examined. The "Flock" book has become way too intrusive into people’s personal affairs w/the knowing all the nitty, gritty details of human’s failings. In some cases, it acts like a confessional in the catholic church. Confession begins first with Jehovah, then find your way to the elders to be greased with oil since so many can’t find the ability to pray to God after sin. But elders seem to view the confession to them primarily. As an elder, the first thing I would ask someone confessing a sin is "Have you first confessed your transgressions to Jehovah from your knees privately?" (The Commentary of James book is an incredible book regarding confession and the purpose of elders. They all should be instructed to read the book.)

Also, the extreme way witnesses are admonished to not even acknowledge a disfellowshipped person at the meeting and/or in public and also towards family members has gotten overtly extreme and too generalized. (Yes, its true Pauls' words quote "don't even greet such a man". Once again, I digress as per above, I believe there are extenuating circumstances for everyone and that there are sins deemed "wicked" and others less egregious due to fleshly weakness.

But if one has never been disfellowshipped, reproved and/or shunned and is one who "enjoys" punishing others for bad deeds, then I guess the arrangement is like a box of chocolates. I really hope the verse @ John 8:11 conveniently removed from NWT Scripture where Jesus supposedly said to the woman, "Go and sin no more", actually occurred. It highlights Jesus’ practicality and immense tender love...
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I agree with you. There cannot be the same yardstick for all cases. Each case is different. A sinner is not the same as an apostate. And among sins pedophilia is the most aberrant, and deserves expulsion. First, if the child does not report it, the pedophile will not confess it. Second, having sexual contact with a child always implies premeditation and treachery, in a way that eliminates the victim's defense possibilities. Third, the child never consents to this abuse, he only does it under threats. So all this makes it clear that it is not a weakness at a specific moment and that therefore it motivates the sinner's repentance. On the contrary, the pedophile, if he was not discovered, would continue with the abuses of him. He "regrets" because they caught him, period. The WT is too condescending to pedophiles. Why is it? ...
 
Nomex

Nomex

Well-known member
Cherry said:
I agree that there must be a system of judgment within the congregation, but the sinner must be given the opportunity to have witnesses by his side at his own trial. That would prevent abuse. The elders would think twice before abusing their authority.
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I agree in certain cases for sure it should be made public
Cherry said:
It is one thing to avoid the close relationship, and quite another to not cross any words.
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There was DF'd guy in a congregation I was in some years ago. He had been institutionalized some time after and had some severe mental disabilities. I think he was a schizophrenic. His Mom would pick him up sometimes on the weekends when he was well enough, and take him to the meetings. I saw this guy reach out to the P.O. at the time, and this Elder dodged him like he was dodging a football tackle. I mean he made a scene and a fool of himself to anyone with a soul! This same Elder gave a comment during the Watchtower study which was on, you guess it, Df'ing and said something to this effect, about people who complain about the way they are treated by Elders in a judicial committee, and this is going to be a pretty close quote, "it's like when someone who gets pulled over by a police officer and complains about the way the cop treated them and never mind they deserved to be pulled over!" Yeah, he was an ass. He's dead now, can't say that's a bad thing! :cry:

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