Disfellowship is it Christian? And shunning ?

SollaSollew

Well-known member
Yes, okay. But even so, he could have ended it there.
No Jehovah's 4 cardinal attributes are: love, justice, wisdom, power, all in perfect balance. Justice dictates that he did not end it there in Eden, otherwise he would of. Simply saying "he could have" doesn't support your statement, that's an opinion, all his ways are perfect and just. If he had ended it there in Eden it would of called into question Jehovah's justice.
 

SollaSollew

Well-known member
Apparently both of you disagree with what the Reasoning from the Scriptures book states on page 428 under the heading Wickedness:
"God could have destroyed the rebels (Satan, Adam, and Eve) immediately, but that would not have settled matters. Might does not prove that one’s cause is right."
I love your tenacity 😏, I think you realise my view on the subject and if you accuse me of disagreeing with the Society on a particular subject I gladly wear that badge with honour. Once again quoting the Society doesn't change how Jehovah administers his justice, he didn't destroy the rebels because his Justice wouldn't allow it - simple. Yes he "could" have but he never would have. You seem to think "could" means he "would" or am I missing your point?

We also see how Jehovah through love allows justice to be usurped. Under divine justice we are all deserving of death and yet Jehovah proved the ransom out of love with the prospect of everlasting life. Get your head around that one 😜. How unsearchable are Jehovah's ways. Peace and blessings sister.
 
R

Robert194972

Guest
"God could have destroyed the rebels (Satan, Adam, and Eve) immediately, but that would not have settled matters. Might does not prove that one’s cause is right."
I was never one to take the publications too seriously, especially when a particular point did not line up with Jehovah's word. and the above statement does not line up with Jehovah's word. I started to think for myself early in the piece. I did a lot of study to make sure that what the GB said was supported by the bible. If I though they were not I questioned the elders. Sadly most in the congregation do not "make sure of all things", they never "test to see if the statements originate with God" Many are lost without an outline or the publications. Jehovah could not have destroyed Satan and started over because of his sense of Justice. He would have proved himself a liar. He set the Sabbath before the rebellion in Eden. He certainly had the power to do so, but he simply could not. For the reasons stated.
 
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Paz

Well-known member
I agree Jehovah will permit this unjust treatment of shunning that as you have said is very cruel to continue till his due time when his Son inspects the slave prior to the Gt . He as he did with unfaithful Israel and later Judah provide plenty of time and opportunity for them to reverse course. So at present we can only warn them as Robert is doing but Justice will out in Jehovah’s due time. I am setting up a website to assist those unbelievers to search for Jehovah. Take care, Paz
 
S

Searcher

Guest
With the child abuse problem, why would any parent allow their young son or daughter go off alone to do anything with an older man, even in the organization? The congregation is not a "Spiritual Paradise". It's not safe to allow children to be alone with older teenagers or adults, not even elders, or sons of elders. Unless you have a very highly trusted friend, a very well-known individual, preferably a close family member, you don't trust anyone alone with your kids. 'Trusting' the brothers and sisters and their kids was a huge mistake that I made years ago. Never again. Trusting people outside the organization, in the world, no way. They are worse. That's not being unloving, that's just using common sense to protect your children in the face of the sad reality of the horrible world that we live in today.
I agree with what you said, and I would never let any kids of mine hang out with people unsupervised, especially while young and easily manipulated. The thing is many JW parents are told it is NOT a problem with in the org and that they should also trust the org. So for those reasons, I think many at often totally blindsided.
 

BillyRay

Well-known member
Jehovah is the universal sovereign. The creator of all things. The almighty. If he wanted, he could have immediately destroyed all involved with what happened in Eden. He absolutely could have. He has the right and the ability to do anything he wants with his creation.

However, reason on this…. had Jehovah done that, the myriads of intelligent spirit creatures who were watching could have been left with questions about Jehovah himself. They could wonder, “was Satan and the issues he raised in Eden, perhaps correct?” Or, “how could Jehovah create something that wasn’t perfect? Was he wrong?” And more.

Instead, Jehovah made arrangements to answer all of those questions. Arrangements that glorify his universal sovereignty.
 

Serenity

Well-known member
I love your tenacity 😏, I think you realise my view on the subject and if you accuse me of disagreeing with the Society on a particular subject I gladly wear that badge with honour. Once again quoting the Society doesn't change how Jehovah administers his justice, he didn't destroy the rebels because his Justice wouldn't allow it - simple. Yes he "could" have but he never would have. You seem to think "could" means he "would" or am I missing your point?

We also see how Jehovah through love allows justice to be usurped. Under divine justice we are all deserving of death and yet Jehovah proved the ransom out of love with the prospect of everlasting life. Get your head around that one 😜. How unsearchable are Jehovah's ways. Peace and blessings sister.
Well, I wouldn't call it an 'accusation', per say, more of an observation of the obvious.
 

Alannah

Well-known member
Very nice video. Thank you. It seems on that serious question JWorg could have done one more like the Bible Students. The JW video answers the question but the Bible Students video goes into the Bible more and and gives a more thorough answer.
I agree that was a nice video I just finished watching. Thank you both for sharing 😊
 

Alannah

Well-known member
the RCOG also did a video on this,
its a very important question that im glad to see has been tackled by many.
Why didn't you tell me they made a video about the subject too?? My darling I love you thank you for your help ❤️
 

BillyRay

Well-known member
Thought I’d pop in…. I believe he is resting from using his powers of creation. Rest does not mean complete inactivity. We’ve seen that to be the case.

Edit: I just answered quickly from my alerts page. Not sure if this was part of a deeper discussion that I might be barging in on. Apologies if it is. BR
 

noname

Well-known member
Ok. You are entitled to your opinion and to disagree with the Watchtower publications and with me.
My first answer was from my mind and heart without looking anything at all up in any Watchtower publications. Then for Alannah, I looked up something for her to read on the topic and a short video. Thirdly, I looked up wickedness in the Reasoning on the Scriptures book, and found the quote that Jehovah could have destroyed the rebels immediately, which he most certainly could have, after all He is the Almighty.

Question: What did Jehovah rest from during his "rest day", everything? Did Jehovah rest from exercising justice?

Acts Jehovah performed during his "rest day":
Jehovah pronounced judgment and sentences on Adam and the woman during his rest day. Jehovah gave the first prophecy during his rest day. Jehovah made long garments for Adam and the woman after they sinned, that was work, during his rest day. Jehovah drove Adam and the woman out of Eden after they sinned, during his rest day. Jehovah posted Cherubs to guard the way to the tree of life, during his rest day. Jehovah warned Cain to turn aside from bad during his rest day, and after Cain murdered his brother, Jehovah pronounced a sentence on Cain during his rest day.

Of course, we know Jehovah has done many, many things during his "rest day", brought destruction on a wicked world by a worldwide flood. Destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, delivered the Israilites, destroyed the Egyptian armies, etc, etc, etc.

What did Jehovah rest from on his "rest day"?
He rested from acts of .... creation

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Every group in the world practices some sort of ex-communication.
A group of friends may get tired of one constantly acting a fool and will stop inviting them to their outings.
A family will stop inviting their drug addict member on vacations.
A company will fire an individual for not doing their job or causing problems.
Schools suspend students who are unruly.
Governments put people in jail for breaking the law.

The truth is everyone has the right to stop associating with whomever they wish.

The scriptures say “The one walking with the wise will become wise, But the one who has dealings with the stupid will fare badly.”

It has existed amongst Jehovah’s Witnesses since 1954 as an existing witness I am not happy with it. My aunts were Bible students in the 1920’s my grandmother in the 1930’s and my Dad was baptised during Judge Rutherford time as President of the WT. what is your view?
 

TravellinRox

Well-known member
He rested from acts of .... creation

————————-

Every group in the world practices some sort of ex-communication.
A group of friends may get tired of one constantly acting a fool and will stop inviting them to their outings.
A family will stop inviting their drug addict member on vacations.
A company will fire an individual for not doing their job or causing problems.
Schools suspend students who are unruly.
Governments put people in jail for breaking the law.

The truth is everyone has the right to stop associating with whomever they wish.

The scriptures say “The one walking with the wise will become wise, But the one who has dealings with the stupid will fare badly.”
Good point, @noname!

I think, though, where the issues come up for many, is when the Organization decrees essentially that no one can or should have association with such ones that they have decreed ‘disfellowshipped’ …or they are being unfaithful to God. In each of the instances you mentioned, individuals still have their choice as to whether they will still associate or not. Even prisons allow visitors who wish to see the offender. In none of these situations is the ‘offender’ to be viewed as essentially ‘dead’ until they’ve paid back “all that was owing.”

But yeah, just stating a point. I’m not hardcore either way and it seems as if the Scriptures are not as hardcore as the WT is, either. There’s scriptures and scriptural reasonings that seem to leave leeway for individual consciences. As I say, even the examples above allow individuals their own conscientious choice as to whether to abide by the institution’s decision or to continue to associate with the offender anyways.

Each situation is different and it kind of also depends on whether the institution in question made a valid, just decision in the first place. As you brought out, there will always be the law of cause and effect. Each individual wants to make a wise choice in association or they will suffer the consequences. Yet, Jehovah gave all his creatures free will. Where, then, can the line be drawn?

I’m definitely not saying I have all the answers. Just some things to think about :)
 
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Paz

Well-known member
Did Jesus whilst on earth expell or disfellowship anybody? Did he shun anybody? NO
he said ‘imitate me’ be my follower . If we judge, shun or are offended by any one. It’s when we are not following Christ. Those who do are followers of their own sinful nature and copying the world.
in our baptismal vow we promised to follow Christ. Ok we are all guilty of sin that is why we are not perfect (meaning perfectly obedient). It does not entitle us to copy satans world or approve of satanic polices within Jehovah’s organisation that prior to 1952 disfellowship did not exist in the Christian congregation, and most certainly not shunning anyone because that breaches Art 9 of the UN charter on human rights. See my website on ‘Jesus section’ in green it provides access to copies of correspondence . http://www.christ2coming.org In the green section at the end of this section is a button this leads to Jw section. At the end of this section is another button this leads to jw library that has numerous letter some sent to GB.
 
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kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
It has existed amongst Jehovah’s Witnesses since 1954 as an existing witness I am not happy with it. My aunts were Bible students in the 1920’s my grandmother in the 1930’s and my Dad was baptised during Judge Rutherford time as President of the WT. what is your view?
WT disfellowshipping appears similar to what the Pharisee’s and Sadducee’s did in Jesus day by threatening to throw members out of the synagogue if they didn’t toe their often unscriptural line.
And where does the WT leadership get off determining when you’ve become sufficiently repentant enough to be permitted back into the fold?
Jesus made it clear , from the parable of the prodigal son, that when the son had come to regret his course of action, his father ,who was representative of Jehovah, readily welcomed his son back home.
WT leadership more typifies the angry brother who wanted punishment meted out to his salvaged brother.
 

Paz

Well-known member
WT disfellowshipping appears similar to what the Pharisee’s and Sadducee’s did in Jesus day by threatening to throw members out of the synagogue if they didn’t toe their often unscriptural line.
And where does the WT leadership get off determining when you’ve become sufficiently repentant enough to be permitted back into the fold?
Jesus made it clear , from the parable of the prodigal son, that when the son had come to regret his course of action, his father ,who was representative of Jehovah, readily welcomed his son back home.
WT leadership more typifies the angry brother who wanted punishment meted out to his salvaged brother.
The faithful slave slowly changes by starting to ‘beat his fellow slaves’ this began in a small way from the early 1950’s but has increased to millions being disfellowshipped over the years to date. This Includes the 2 witness rule and the child abuse cases mainly undertaken by these same elders involved in enjoying the extremely cruel disfellowshipping policy. Of course the faithful slave has slowly changed in to the ‘man of lawlessness’ the ‘evil slave’. Thank you for your comments Ken.
 

Paz

Well-known member
There is a difference between a Christian falling to weakness of fleshly sin "(i.e: fornication~ in a manner that doesn't affect the congregation directly) versus child molesters. The latter being repugnant, wicked and evil. Do you know how many witnesses are callously disfellowshipped due to committing immorality with another adult and/or had concealed a sin from time ago yet had striven to alter such course yet are still disfellowshipped based on such? I'm in no way attempting to water down God's holiness and I fully understand the ramifications of not controlling one's body members as scripture states and Paul relates the body is not meant for fornication.

However, Paul's first letter to the Corinthians exhorted the congregation to expel the "wicked" man whom was committing acts "worse than the nations". Meaning, he was committing immorality with his father’s wife. Something even to today's standards would be deemed "shocking". Yet, even though the man was labeled "wicked" by Paul, in his 2nd letter to the Corinthians (written within the same year), he told the congregation to reinstate him for he obviously repented and he did not want him to become overly saddened.

So two points to take away from that, though I recognize "fornicators" will not inherit God's kingdom (particularly the Chosen Ones held to a higher standard), there seems to be a more egregious form of sin that can be deemed "wicked" like that of child molesters, sleeping with step mothers, certain adulterers etc.). I have first-hand heard elders very often and even very recent disfellowshipping ones due to fleshly weakness that may seem "not necessarily wicked " even though the person seemed suffering with remorse and just fell to weakness. I've heard "the time has to fit the crime". Meaning, "you'll need to be disfellowshipped at least a year plus", etc. Paul sought to reinstate the repentant "wicked" man within the span of both letters...less than a year. So, it highlights that expulsion was not done to make penance for a sin, but rather to readjust the person. Humans seem to enjoy “punishing for bad deeds”.

How do you identify repentance? It’s not as easy as just quoting scripture regarding "works befitting repentance". And therein lies the "Catch22". If an elder "doesn't like you", or enjoys retribution for one concealing a sin, even though the person has finally confessed and/or declares repentance, the person can be judged harshly and thrown out. Then, as punishment the elder(s) keep the person locked out until they grovel their way back. Spanish congregations can be particularly ruthless. Whatever the case, the entire disfellowshipping arrangement is absolutely abused/misused. I realize Paul was inspired to write his letters, but I also think there are times he is taken out of context in some cases and he would be concerned with his words being used in a way he necessarily wouldn't have enacted in his time.

The disfellowshipping arrangement and committees should be overhauled and re-examined. The "Flock" book has become way too intrusive into people’s personal affairs w/the knowing all the nitty, gritty details of human’s failings. In some cases, it acts like a confessional in the catholic church. Confession begins first with Jehovah, then find your way to the elders to be greased with oil since so many can’t find the ability to pray to God after sin. But elders seem to view the confession to them primarily. As an elder, the first thing I would ask someone confessing a sin is "Have you first confessed your transgressions to Jehovah from your knees privately?" (The Commentary of James book is an incredible book regarding confession and the purpose of elders. They all should be instructed to read the book.)

Also, the extreme way witnesses are admonished to not even acknowledge a disfellowshipped person at the meeting and/or in public and also towards family members has gotten overtly extreme and too generalized. (Yes, its true Pauls' words quote "don't even greet such a man". Once again, I digress as per above, I believe there are extenuating circumstances for everyone and that there are sins deemed "wicked" and others less egregious due to fleshly weakness.

But if one has never been disfellowshipped, reproved and/or shunned and is one who "enjoys" punishing others for bad deeds, then I guess the arrangement is like a box of chocolates. I really hope the verse @ John 8:11 conveniently removed from NWT Scripture where Jesus supposedly said to the woman, "Go and sin no more", actually occurred. It highlights Jesus’ practicality and immense tender love...
Jn 8:11 as you say where Jesus said ‘go sin no more’. I certainly feel that ‘he who has no sin , cast the first stone’. In Mth 7 :1 jesus says ‘stop judging’ . Even Jesus does not judge till the day of judgment at Armageddon . If we claim to be ‘foot step followers of Christ than who are we to start judging our neighbours/brothers Before Christ. Whatever excuse we use whatever scripture we use, is an excuse. And as for the evil suggestion that we must have our sinning brother ‘handed over to Satan ‘ so we can have a ‘clean’ congregation, so they are sacrificed to Baal and ‘spiritually murdered ‘ so we can feel clean. To me it sounds like child sacrifice practiced in ancient Israel. If I want to be clean I wash myself in Christs blood since he is my sacrifice not Baal. Sorry I feel to disgustEd by arguments about evil excommunication .
 

SusanB

Well-known member
Jn 8:11 as you say where Jesus said ‘go sin no more’. I certainly feel that ‘he who has no sin , cast the first stone’. In Mth 7 :1 jesus says ‘stop judging’ . Even Jesus does not judge till the day of judgment at Armageddon . If we claim to be ‘foot step followers of Christ than who are we to start judging our neighbours/brothers Before Christ. Whatever excuse we use whatever scripture we use, is an excuse. And as for the evil suggestion that we must have our sinning brother ‘handed over to Satan ‘ so we can have a ‘clean’ congregation, so they are sacrificed to Baal and ‘spiritually murdered ‘ so we can feel clean. To me it sounds like child sacrifice practiced in ancient Israel. If I want to be clean I wash myself in Christs blood since he is my sacrifice not Baal. Sorry I feel to disgustEd by arguments about evil excommunication .
Hi Brother Paz, While I don’t accept John 8:1-11 as being part of the inspired word, I agree with your conclusions anyway. Thank you.
 
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