Jesus Name - Proof of the GB's Deceptive Teaching of the Faithful Slave

Status
Not open for further replies.

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Where did I call the Watchtower a cult? I read Ray Franz's books. They were very good. But, as I have repeatedly posted, I read all of Russell's and Rutherford's books personally. Over 14,000 pages. In date order. My conclusions are based on that firsthand knowledge. I'm not whining. I can handle whatever you are dishing out. I don't mind being associated with Ray. He was a real Christian and a gentleman. But my understandings are my own.

I read your book as well. You write well. And some parts I agree with. Your chapter on the UN was well done. I just don't agree with your theology, because it is based on the premise that the Watchtower was chosen by God as "his organization."
I think Jehovah “used” and continues to use, watchtower. The bible makes it clear that Jehovah “uses whom He will” to do His work. Thus watchtower is His to use and to demonstrate His purpose. I think that I am right in saying that using something to achieve an outcome, does not require that one “approves” of it. I think perhaps that is where the contention in purpose of the watchtower springs from. Who in their right mind would choose the governing body to represent themself? It beggars belief. But to use them to demonstrate an outcome of purpose, then who better than the the GB? I think that is where misunderstanding comes in.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I gotta say, people that like every comment are not being honest. Did you win a trophy 🏆
I think you will find Kevin that “liking” in this context is simply acknowledging an agreement in principle, restricted as we are to show agreement in any other way on this site. It is also used to register support. Most here recognise and allow for the view of others, but Robert has to answer for every little detail he writes and defend his understanding against all-comers. It is a lonely job to stand against all-comers
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Yeah, maybe I did...at least I'm reading the comments and I do LIKE them, HONEST. Besides that's only your opinion anyway. What are you doing...overseeing and counting everyone's LIKES or just mine?

And I thought you were a nice guy KevinB.
I like your likes. Very likeable they are too, and some of us like liking because liking likes is likely to show appreciation for the likes of us who like liking whether we like it or not, to show that we like others to join in. That is probably a likeable attribute in its self.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I respect him as well. His book made me think of things that wouldn't of happened without his joint or ligament. If you think im out to get him you’re sadly mistaken . However this topic garnished a huge response, right? IT'S STILL ON TOP RIGHT?
There are endless variations on a theme and thus much room to allow for these slight differences. We reveal a great deal about ourselves in our responses and Mac does himself no favours to ignore that. We all have but little insight into the enormity of Truth. We ”have not seen, yet have faith” as Thomas found out to his cost in pride in disbelieving the resurrection of Christ, but he learnt that faith trumps our misgiving and lack of insight. Why people expect Robert to know all and be all to all people and to be correct in every detail, who can say? Our doubts are far more to do with our own lack in knowledge rather than his. If we understand that the sum of his knowledge is greater than its parts, and that the same applies to us, then we can allow idiosyncrasies in his presentation as indeed we should do so for all here.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I was wondering if it was okay you could do a thread on Ray Franz. I'm not too familiar with his works but I do know many ex-JW's champion him, including many of those who became atheist. I've heard from @The God Pill that Fred Franz was suspicious in his activity so I wouldn't really know how weird things were back then (I'm a millennial).
So sorry to hear you’re a millennial PJ. I can appreciate the difficulties you must be facing. We had no idea that things were going to turn out as they did and so I can only apologise for my generation (I am of Splane’s / watchtowers “Extended Generation” well before it was extended, and so as far as you are concerned I represent an entirely different species of humanity to yours). I should point out though that it is millennials that are weird and not us. We were here before everyone “got on down” and “freaked out”, before even things became “faaaar out maaan“; a time when there was no traffic on the road at weekends, a time when you could buy a sirloin of beef for a family of six for less that 10 shillings, ($2] and a time when we would light our way to bed with a candle and wake to frost on the inside of the windows. Those were the days when computing was performed by your brain and volume after volume of Encyclopaedia Britannica lined the walls and provided our answers rather than google and even Pluto had not been discovered!
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
You're wrong there...at least on one level. Jah chose the weak and foolish so that no man could boast in the sight of God. They get to heaven through undeserved kindness, not their own merits. 1 Cor 1:26-29..."so that no one may boast in His presence."

And who went among the world looking for the wheat and the weeds, even to a somewhat limited extent? I know of only one group that's famous for its worldwide preaching. And they did a pretty impressive job of it. Former glory, now tarnished by their continued fall.

Perhaps your attention span needs some exercise.

I think Anna was imagining this and licking her chops in anticipation for all that would "worship" her one day.

Physician heal thyself? I'm not saying...I'm just saying...
BTW, was that a short enough answer for you?

Did you win a trophy🏆?

When the rubber hits the road Bill, old args like this will be quickly forgotten. Brothers will forget their differences and protect each other. And if they don't? They were never real Brothers to begin with.

What a thread! I think I need a shower now.
You actually read my post?!!! I feel quite humbled. Very unexpected!
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Hi Nomex, she sounds awfully familiar with BibleStudent who has no problem creating aliases. I have no proof but similar claims and enough Bible knowledge to be dangerous.
I always feel a bit numb when people just post bible verses without offering their contextual thoughts in explanation. I find the bible very difficult to understand over and above the New Testament (apart from revelations which is simply out of bounds to my brain). I can’t deal with ambiguity and prophesy - it’s a foreign language). When people just quote without justifying their thoughts on it, it has no educational value to reason on. Of what good is a map that has no directions? That is why we have teachers. And if the teachers do not teach, then how do we learn? If there is no opinion, how can we analyse and reference content? Empty vessels.
 

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
I was wondering if it was okay you could do a thread on Ray Franz. I'm not too familiar with his works but I do know many ex-JW's champion him, including many of those who became atheist. I've heard from @The God Pill that Fred Franz was suspicious in his activity so I wouldn't really know how weird things were back then (I'm a millennial).
I don't mind if you want to discuss something from Franz's books.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
"The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous."

"And you have entirely forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not belittle the discipline from Jehovah, nor give up when you are corrected by him; for those whom Jehovah loves he disciplines, in fact, he scourges everyone whom he receives as a son.” You need to endure as part of your discipline. God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? But if you have not all shared in receiving this discipline, you are really illegitimate children, and not sons."

"On a set day, Herod clothed himself with royal raiment and sat down on the judgment seat and began giving them a public address. Then the people who were assembled began shouting: “A god’s voice, and not a man’s!” Instantly the angel of Jehovah struck him, because he did not give the glory to God, and he was eaten up with worms and died. But the word of Jehovah went on growing and spreading."

It is about time for judgment to start with the House of God.

When Jesus takes the throne, he will begin cleaning Jehovah's witnesses, both those "inside" and "outside" the organization.

The scribes and Pharisees prided themselves on their knowledge of God. But in truth, they were very, very far away from God.

Robert King, you are right on many things and not right on others, but the most important thing for a witness of Jehovah is Love. God is Love.

I do not agree with everything Joe believes, but Joe is not a liar or a conman - he was sharing his opinion. Your removing him for the conversation smacks of the overlords in the congregations who disfellowship members who tell the truth. Joe was telling the truth about how he felt.

Ray Franz has different gifts than Bill Bowan. Bill is a real shepherd, but so was Ray. They had different gifts. Ray also was not correct on everything, but he did help victims of abuse by shedding light on the way the governing body operates. I found his personal apology in the book for what the governing body did wrong to be extremely healing.

It seems, Robert, that you have become what you hated about the organization. You have built up a following for yourself, and when the sheep bow down to you, you do not stop them. It's disgusting.

Rather than respond positively to other anointed ones who share spiritual truths, you respond competitively and with a lack of hospitality. You do not shepherd the sheep - you verbally beat them if they don't bow down to you. You are not what claim to be. You are what you accused those others to be: a con man, an obfuscater, and dishonest.

Jehovah is sending Jesus to clean Jehovah's witnesses. You claim to be one of Jehovah's witnesses. You would be wise to repent before Jesus gets here.

Take note, all you people! Jehovah always sends a warning first.

"Little children, keep yourselves from idols."

Praise Jehovah.
If you feel people here bow down to any particular correspondent then you need to look at your values. Normally, praise where praise is due for the effort made in an offering on a bible topic, is understood for its value to the learning processes rather than the author. People who are not so well versed in the context of the bible are apt to question from their ignorance rather than any assumed and often emotive sense of superior knowledge, picking away at the author rather than their own lack of contextual insight, to cover over their lack in understanding. Always though, they assume a superior knowledge unaware that such superiority is if their own making rather than of any genuine insight into accuracy.

In any university, even if only the university of life, one can identify the cerebral thinker because they question what is said, not the speaker, interested only in the subject and the insight of others. They accept without question the integrity of the writer. Then the two contend their points and reach an understanding or agree to differ, but both continue to learn and ultimately will come to an agreement at some point. Put bluntly, you have no such integrity for the subject matter, only for your opinion as a person. If you will not allow yourself to learn the subject through being humble enough to listen and gain instruction, then you have nothing of value to contribute - you prefer to keep that to yourself and usually, for fear of further correction. As others learn, you will become ever more isolated due to your refusal to debate, and have not the ability to reason against yourself. All you can offer is to invoke Jehovah to justify your thinking, whereas the wise invoke Jehovah to tell them what to think. A Vacuous conceit. Totally vacuous. Were that it otherwise.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
If anybody else wants to step forward, I will be delighted to delete you right now.
I would like to be deleted for something really outrageous rather than something so basic as this. “Here lies Barnaby the Dog an undercover trinitarian and deputy Pope, caught while purchasing magic underwear from the mormon tabernacle shop on behalf of the Governing Body.”
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
The likes of Joe are almost like they are cut from the same cloth as the false teachers and super fine apostles. They have a form of Godly devotion but prove false to its power and we are told to turn away from such ones. I have encountered so many like Joe who come across as enlightened and harmless but when you use discernment you can hear Satan speaking through them using his human agents whom he was able to lead astray from the true teachings, the accurate knowledge they were taught...back to false reasoning and back to their own vomit. They are very effective tools for Satan as they are well versed in the scriptures qnd the truth and they come across as spiritually enlightened Christians who are harmless but I think they are the most lethal as they appear so innocent but really they are conniving, deceived and a weapon to use against others who know the truth to cause confusion and stumbling. I noticed Satan has been active here lately. Satan is on overdrive...he does really enjoy playing games doesn't he portraying himself as a angel of light...praise be to Jehovah that he has blessed me with the ability to hear what is truth and discern what is not...the true sheep always hear his voice.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort.
I hear what you are saying. My experience though is somewhat different. The issue with Franz is similar to a great many others in that their sensibilities and thinking were perhaps superficial. Many joined the witnesses because they thought they would benefit. The 1975 joke was a prime example, the moreso when you study the world situation at that time. With these ones, take away that promise and there is left only the drudgery of a never ending servitude that occupies all your waking hours, and still more in offering a free preaching service every other waking hour, not to mention in the limitations on your social life and earning capabilities. Yet it is also helpful not to compartmentalise these ones into agents of Satan. The psychological issues within witnesses is far more complex and being of Satan is probably not one of them. They are simply lost. Neither one thing or the other. A belief and hope on one hand, set with a mild understanding of a nameless god and an unimagined shallow sense of His attributes, and this being the case, serve for reward rather than the attainment of His values. They are not servants of Satan, but perhaps unfeeling in appreciation of the creator. The bible speaks of such a malaise in that people will have to be terrified for their life in the time of the end before they will wake up to their needs.

That in itself is descriptive of the issue. For the vast majority their realisation that there is a God, and that Jesus was no fancy Christmas celebration, will require them to make a choice. This implies that faith and belief through evidence, is given freely to those like the robber hung beside Jesus within inches of death, without him having any depth and understanding of faith beforehand. Clearly then, Jehovah reads the potential in the heart, just as Jesus did in that two line conversation with the thief. Jesus invoked miracles and raised the dead. There was reason for that. Yet he went on to say to Thomas who, though witness to these things, still did not recognise the issues. So Jesus, in thinking of these days said to him, “So you have seen and believed. Greater still are those that do not see but believe.”

Thus it is with others who visit here. The fact that with all the encouragement here, or at the hall or otherwise, do not ’see it’ yet, but perhaps will do so in due course. To make a label for them is not only hasty for us, but brands us with the same iron as the GB do with their dissenters. We are not that important and have no need to seek justification through condemnation. We are better than that. We let them condemn themselves and recognise that, but for whatever reason we are here, we have nothing to boast of, save what we are given freely.
 

MickHewitt

Well-known member
there is left only the drudgery of a never ending servitude that occupies all your waking hours,
Paul's encouragment about 'helmet of salvation'? Protects the mind right? When our salvation is threatened then we break down spritually and psychologically...ofcourse when our salvation is a helmet of watchtower then.... crash!....But we, who drink Christ's free water now seeing the breakdown of spirit within the congregations....our eyes are getting brighter!
 

Ms_ladyblue

Well-known member
You're wrong there...at least on one level. Jah chose the weak and foolish so that no man could boast in the sight of God. They get to heaven through undeserved kindness, not their own merits. 1 Cor 1:26-29..."so that no one may boast in His presence."

And who went among the world looking for the wheat and the weeds, even to a somewhat limited extent? I know of only one group that's famous for its worldwide preaching. And they did a pretty impressive job of it. Former glory, now tarnished by their continued fall.

Perhaps your attention span needs some exercise.

I think Anna was imagining this and licking her chops in anticipation for all that would "worship" her one day.

Physician heal thyself? I'm not saying...I'm just saying...
BTW, was that a short enough answer for you?

Did you win a trophy🏆?

When the rubber hits the road Bill, old args like this will be quickly forgotten. Brothers will forget their differences and protect each other. And if they don't? They were never real Brothers to begin with.

What a thread! I think I need a shower now.
ROFL 🤣 Now that‘s what I call getting all your responses out in one fell swoop kirmmy! 😅
 

PJ54

Well-known member
All I know about Franz is his own story and a few comments I've read years back. What I do know from personal experience is that you don't talk about fight club in the kingdom hall. You don't even mention his name or you get that look and people turn and walk away in mid-sentence on you. I felt that to be suspicious early on but I kept it to myself because I perceived the fear brothers and sisters had even mentioning his name. Sort of like E.F. Hutton commercials. You mention that name and you can hear an owl fart twenty miles away.
Funny thing when you're new, you're allowed to ask questions and they "we commend you for that" sort of thing. Then there is a crossover point where that comes to a screeching halt Jack.

What we do does matter. Maybe it's time to build bigger storehouses.
I just looked up the E.F. Hutton commercials & I must say such a reaction would be interesting to see during an international assembly just because someone brought up the name in conversation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top