Another horn

P

Patmos

Active member
Daniel 8:9 says another horn grew very great.
verse 24 He became great but not through his own power, he will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones.
verse 25 He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.
So this horn apparently is the eight King that is given power from the ten kings in Revelation 17:11-13 described as a wild beast
This is the same wild beast from Revelation 13:3-5 that suffers the death stroke then heals, then has authority for 42 months over every nation and to conquer the holy ones.
If this death stroke occurs in the Great Tribulation, then the wild best/horn emerges after the Great Tribulation.
In Matthew 24 & Luke 21 Jesus said that the holy place would be trampled during the Great Tribulation.
Back to Daniel 8:11-13 the horn tramples the holy place

So my question is:
How does this horn trample the holy place during the Great Tribulation, if at the same time the Great Tribulation is when the wild beast suffers the death stroke, and it heals/stands up as the eighth king after the Great Tribulation?
 
Ms_ladyblue

Ms_ladyblue

Well-known member
Patmos said:
Daniel 8:9 says another horn grew very great.
verse 24 He became great but not through his own power, he will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones.
verse 25 He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.
So this horn apparently is the eight King that is given power from the ten kings in Revelation 17:11-13 described as a wild beast
This is the same wild beast from Revelation 13:3-5 that suffers the death stroke then heals, then has authority for 42 months over every nation and to conquer the holy ones.
If this death stroke occurs in the Great Tribulation, then the wild best/horn emerges after the Great Tribulation.
In Matthew 24 & Luke 21 Jesus said that the holy place would be trampled during the Great Tribulation.
Back to Daniel 8:11-13 the horn tramples the holy place

So my question is:
How does this horn trample the holy place during the Great Tribulation, if at the same time the Great Tribulation is when the wild beast suffers the death stroke, and it heals/stands up as the eighth king after the Great Tribulation?
Click to expand...
Read @KevinB’s book. It may give you more insight.
 
Bk Kevin

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
Patmos said:
Daniel 8:9 says another horn grew very great.
verse 24 He became great but not through his own power, he will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones.
verse 25 He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.
So this horn apparently is the eight King that is given power from the ten kings in Revelation 17:11-13 described as a wild beast
This is the same wild beast from Revelation 13:3-5 that suffers the death stroke then heals, then has authority for 42 months over every nation and to conquer the holy ones.
If this death stroke occurs in the Great Tribulation, then the wild best/horn emerges after the Great Tribulation.
In Matthew 24 & Luke 21 Jesus said that the holy place would be trampled during the Great Tribulation.
Back to Daniel 8:11-13 the horn tramples the holy place

So my question is:
How does this horn trample the holy place during the Great Tribulation, if at the same time the Great Tribulation is when the wild beast suffers the death stroke, and it heals/stands up as the eighth king after the Great Tribulation?
Click to expand...

What is the Great Tribulation and Holy Place?> https://e-watchman.com/great-tribulation-holy-place/​

Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Holy Place> https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-holy-place-prophecy/​

​

That is really the theme of Daniel —the conflict that will ensue between the holy ones and Satan’s political rulers during the time of the end.

With the above in mind, the eighth chapter of Daniel similarly uses stars in a symbolic way. However, it is clear in context that that the stars do not represent demons. Here is what is stated: “Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration. It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down.”

The tail of the Dragon casts down a third of the stars> https://e-watchman.com/the-tail-of-the-dragon-casts-down-a-third-of-the-stars/​

What is the constant feature and when is it removed?> https://e-watchman.com/constant-feature-removed/​

In response Jesus told them that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and encircled with pointed stakes. Jesus went on to say: “There will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.”

How will we know when Satan is cast down?​

Please take note that Jesus said “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations.” There is no indication that the trampling had already begun. If that is what Jesus intended it seems that he would have said something like, ‘And Jerusalem will continue to be trampled upon…’
Of course, there is an antitypical Jerusalem that is due to be trampled too, just as the literal city was in 70 C.E. But the point is, neither the typical nor the symbolic city of Jerusalem was being trampled by the nations when Jesus spoke of the things that are destined to occur. There is, therefore, no scriptural justification, whatsoever, for the Watchtower’s claim that the appointed times of the nations began in 607 B.C.E.> https://e-watchman.com/will-know-satan-cast/

The desolation of Jerusalem by the Northerner>​

And make no mistake: The prophecy of Joel pertains to the destruction of the city of Jerusalem. That is evident by what is stated in the third chapter of Joel —“For look! in those days and in that time, when I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather together all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. I will enter into judgment with them there in behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel, for they scattered them among the nations, and they divided up my land among themselves. For my people they cast lots; they would trade a boy to hire a prostitute and sell a girl for wine to drink.”

Since the re-gathering of the captives of Judah and Jerusalem occurs as an immediate precursor to the gathering of the nations to the Valley of Jehoshaphat for the final judgment —an analogy that parallels the gathering of the nations to the place known as Armageddon —this means that the inhabitants of symbolic Jerusalem are yet to go into captivity and be scattered. And is not the desolation of Jerusalem the central feature of Christ’s extensive prophecy regarding the conclusion of the system of things? And did not Jesus also speak of the gathering of the chosen ones? Does not their being gathered indicate they must first be scattered?

In the gospel of Luke Jesus spoke of this captivity, saying: “And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.”

We may be certain that when the apostles asked Jesus when the holy city and the temple were going to be destroyed they did not for one moment imagine that the trampling of Jerusalem by the nations had already begun or that the appointed times of the nations to trample upon God’s city began when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Judah. They wanted to know the future. They already knew the past.
e-watchman.com

The desolation of Jerusalem by the Northerner

As Jehovah’s Witnesses consider the Bible book of Joel this week in the Life and Ministry meeting, hopefully, some at least, will give the prophecy more than a cursory reading. It is, after all, a prophecy concerning the events leading up to the great and very awe-inspiring day of Jehovah. We
e-watchman.com e-watchman.com

JEHOVAH HIMSELF HAS BECOME KING> http://jehovah-is-king.com/truth/​

 
Last edited:
Watchman

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
Patmos said:
So my question is: How does this horn trample the holy place during the Great Tribulation, if at the same time the Great Tribulation is when the wild beast suffers the death stroke, and it heals/stands up as the eighth king after the Great Tribulation?
Click to expand...
To add context consider verses 24, 25: "His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security* he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand."

A preliminary question ought to be, who are the mighty ones who are brought to ruin? In what extraordinary way will this king cause ruin?
We should not imagine bringing the mighty ones to ruin is an ordinary event. I perceive it will come about by the sudden, deliberate crash of the financial system. The mighty ones are the billionaires and Wall Street titans, the money monarchs. (Yes, that's my phrase ;)) Also, the governments that issue money that suddenly becomes worthless are not off the hook for the debt they owe, making insolvent nations, the US being the biggest debtor in world history, satrapies under the control of the banker's global dictatorship. Needless to say, bringing to ruin the Trans-Atlantic economic and financial system, essentially the Dollar-reserve system, would be an extraordinary event. It would impact the Watchtower too, wiping out their billion-dollar stash - putting them out of the publishing business overnight.

An article appearing on Zero Hedge today compares the sudden, unanticipated collapse of the USSR with the impending collapse of America's Empire of Fiat, except the crash of the Soviet Union only impacted people living in it. A crash of the London-Wall Street system would be global due, not only to the Dollars reserve currency status, but the $$$2 quadrillions of derivatives which are linked to interest rates and currency swaps. Warren Buffet warned that derivatives are financial weapons of mass destruction and we may be fairly certain that their detonation is how the fierce-looking king will succeed in bringing ruin by the use of deception. In the aftermath of the crash, the new king will rule over the ruins he made, and no doubt the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses will be strictly forbidden. Hence, the fierce king will stand in opposition to the Prince of princes -- Jesus Christ.

e-watchman.com

A Fierce-looking King Will Stand Up

This is a revised update of the previous article posted in 2008, originally entitled A King Fierce in Countenance In connection with the book of Daniel, the prophet was told by Jehovah's enlightening angel: "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the
e-watchman.com e-watchman.com
 
Last edited:
MickHewitt

MickHewitt

Well-known member
Watchman said:
To add context consider verses 24, 25: "His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security* he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand."

A preliminary question ought to be, who are the mighty ones who are brought to ruin? In what extraordinary way will this king cause ruin?
We should not imagine bringing the mighty ones to ruin is an ordinary event. I perceive it will come about by the sudden, deliberate crash of the financial system. The mighty ones are the billionaires and Wall Street titans, the money monarchs. (Yes, that's my phrase ;)) Also, the governments that issue money that suddenly becomes worthless are not off the hook for the debt they owe, making insolvent nations, the US being the biggest debtor in world history, satrapies under the control of the banker's global dictatorship. Needless to say, bringing to ruin the Trans-Atlantic economic and financial system, essentially the Dollar-reserve system, would be an extraordinary event. It would impact the Watchtower too, wiping out their billion-dollar stash - putting them out of the publishing business overnight.

An article appearing on Zero Hedge today compares the sudden, unanticipated collapse of the USSR with the impending collapse of America's Empire of Fiat, except the crash of the Soviet Union only impacted people living in it. A crash of the London-Wall Street system would be global due, not only to the Dollars reserve currency status, but the $$$2 quadrillions of derivatives which are linked to interest rates and currency swaps. Warren Buffet warned that derivatives are financial weapons of mass destruction and we may be fairly certain that their detonation is how the fierce-looking king will succeed in bringing ruin by the use of deception. In the aftermath of the crash, the new king will rule over the ruins he made, and no doubt the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses will be strictly forbidden. Hence, the fierce king will stand in opposition to the Prince of princes -- Jesus Christ.

e-watchman.com

A Fierce-looking King Will Stand Up

This is a revised update of the previous article posted in 2008, originally entitled A King Fierce in Countenance In connection with the book of Daniel, the prophet was told by Jehovah's enlightening angel: "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the
e-watchman.com e-watchman.com
Click to expand...
No Bethel! It's not going to be a quick destruction of BTG while your faithfull are saved from thier basements! No! There is to be a 'Marvelous three and half years where the nations are given access to Jehovah's Name! If they were given truth from the bible..they would not need to hide in the basement! They would be hiding in Jehovah and Christ! Blessed arn't we? We have truth: What they have (Our bro's and sis' plus the rest of the world) is only a false perception of survival!
 
Last edited:
P

Patmos

Active member
Watchman said:
To add context consider verses 24, 25: "His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security* he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand."

A preliminary question ought to be, who are the mighty ones who are brought to ruin? In what extraordinary way will this king cause ruin?
We should not imagine bringing the mighty ones to ruin is an ordinary event. I perceive it will come about by the sudden, deliberate crash of the financial system. The mighty ones are the billionaires and Wall Street titans, the money monarchs. (Yes, that's my phrase ;)) Also, the governments that issue money that suddenly becomes worthless are not off the hook for the debt they owe, making insolvent nations, the US being the biggest debtor in world history, satrapies under the control of the banker's global dictatorship. Needless to say, bringing to ruin the Trans-Atlantic economic and financial system, essentially the Dollar-reserve system, would be an extraordinary event. It would impact the Watchtower too, wiping out their billion-dollar stash - putting them out of the publishing business overnight.

An article appearing on Zero Hedge today compares the sudden, unanticipated collapse of the USSR with the impending collapse of America's Empire of Fiat, except the crash of the Soviet Union only impacted people living in it. A crash of the London-Wall Street system would be global due, not only to the Dollars reserve currency status, but the $$$2 quadrillions of derivatives which are linked to interest rates and currency swaps. Warren Buffet warned that derivatives are financial weapons of mass destruction and we may be fairly certain that their detonation is how the fierce-looking king will succeed in bringing ruin by the use of deception. In the aftermath of the crash, the new king will rule over the ruins he made, and no doubt the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses will be strictly forbidden. Hence, the fierce king will stand in opposition to the Prince of princes -- Jesus Christ.

e-watchman.com

A Fierce-looking King Will Stand Up

This is a revised update of the previous article posted in 2008, originally entitled A King Fierce in Countenance In connection with the book of Daniel, the prophet was told by Jehovah's enlightening angel: "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the
e-watchman.com e-watchman.com
Click to expand...
Thanks, that does help
Will be interesting to see the crash
 
P

Patmos

Active member
MickHewitt said:
No Bethel! It's not going to be a quick destruction of BTG while your faithfull are saved from thier basements! No! There is to be a 'Marvelous three and half years where the nations are given access to Jehovah's Name! If they were given truth from the bible..they would not need to hide in the basement! They would be hiding in Jehovah and Christ! Blessed arn't we? We have truth: What they have (Our bro's and sis' plus the rest of the world) is only a false perception of survival!
Click to expand...
Haha good points, what was that secret knock?
 
P

Patmos

Active member
Bk Kevin said:

What is the Great Tribulation and Holy Place?> https://e-watchman.com/great-tribulation-holy-place/​

Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Holy Place> https://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-holy-place-prophecy/​

​

That is really the theme of Daniel —the conflict that will ensue between the holy ones and Satan’s political rulers during the time of the end.

With the above in mind, the eighth chapter of Daniel similarly uses stars in a symbolic way. However, it is clear in context that that the stars do not represent demons. Here is what is stated: “Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration. It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down.”

The tail of the Dragon casts down a third of the stars> https://e-watchman.com/the-tail-of-the-dragon-casts-down-a-third-of-the-stars/​

What is the constant feature and when is it removed?> https://e-watchman.com/constant-feature-removed/​

In response Jesus told them that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and encircled with pointed stakes. Jesus went on to say: “There will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.”

How will we know when Satan is cast down?​

Please take note that Jesus said “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations.” There is no indication that the trampling had already begun. If that is what Jesus intended it seems that he would have said something like, ‘And Jerusalem will continue to be trampled upon…’
Of course, there is an antitypical Jerusalem that is due to be trampled too, just as the literal city was in 70 C.E. But the point is, neither the typical nor the symbolic city of Jerusalem was being trampled by the nations when Jesus spoke of the things that are destined to occur. There is, therefore, no scriptural justification, whatsoever, for the Watchtower’s claim that the appointed times of the nations began in 607 B.C.E.> https://e-watchman.com/will-know-satan-cast/

The desolation of Jerusalem by the Northerner>​

And make no mistake: The prophecy of Joel pertains to the destruction of the city of Jerusalem. That is evident by what is stated in the third chapter of Joel —“For look! in those days and in that time, when I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather together all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. I will enter into judgment with them there in behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel, for they scattered them among the nations, and they divided up my land among themselves. For my people they cast lots; they would trade a boy to hire a prostitute and sell a girl for wine to drink.”

Since the re-gathering of the captives of Judah and Jerusalem occurs as an immediate precursor to the gathering of the nations to the Valley of Jehoshaphat for the final judgment —an analogy that parallels the gathering of the nations to the place known as Armageddon —this means that the inhabitants of symbolic Jerusalem are yet to go into captivity and be scattered. And is not the desolation of Jerusalem the central feature of Christ’s extensive prophecy regarding the conclusion of the system of things? And did not Jesus also speak of the gathering of the chosen ones? Does not their being gathered indicate they must first be scattered?

In the gospel of Luke Jesus spoke of this captivity, saying: “And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.”

We may be certain that when the apostles asked Jesus when the holy city and the temple were going to be destroyed they did not for one moment imagine that the trampling of Jerusalem by the nations had already begun or that the appointed times of the nations to trample upon God’s city began when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Judah. They wanted to know the future. They already knew the past.
e-watchman.com

The desolation of Jerusalem by the Northerner

As Jehovah’s Witnesses consider the Bible book of Joel this week in the Life and Ministry meeting, hopefully, some at least, will give the prophecy more than a cursory reading. It is, after all, a prophecy concerning the events leading up to the great and very awe-inspiring day of Jehovah. We
e-watchman.com e-watchman.com

JEHOVAH HIMSELF HAS BECOME KING> http://jehovah-is-king.com/truth/​

Click to expand...
What is the constant feature and when is it removed?> https://e-watchman.com/constant-feature-removed/ - this article is gold! It even explains why the 2,300 mornings & evenings must be 1,150 days
 
MickHewitt

MickHewitt

Well-known member
MickHewitt said:
No Bethel! It's not going to be a quick destruction of BTG while your faithfull are saved from thier basements! No! There is to be a 'Marvelous three and half years where the nations are given access to Jehovah's Name! If they were given truth from the bible..they would not need to hide in the basement! They would be hiding in Jehovah and Christ! Blessed arn't we? We have truth: What they have (Our bro's and sis' plus the rest of the world) is only a false perception of survival!
Click to expand...
I would be blessed with this reply to neighbours not sharing the same genuine smile as myself: "Ah! The advice was 'Keep on knocking'...I percieve you either did not hear Christ's advice or you only knocked once?"'
 
P

Patmos

Active member
Cristo said:
Actually Patmos, it has been shown that the 2300 days are just that, 2300 days. Here is the link which provides the reasoning for it.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that link, interesting info
I will think about it, but not entirely convinced
Even if the morning and evening offering are one offering, it's still a morning and evening
For example a factory that runs on a 12 hour shift (a morning shift and evening shift), even if it produced one product per day, it still has 2 shifts per 24 hours, 14 shifts per week, 2300 shifts in 1150 days - so I don't see how the number of products made or offerings sacrificed is relevant
Further, why would the prophecy say 2300 "evenings and mornings" if it just meant 2300 days? By contrast Daniel 12 says 1290 days in reference to the constant feature, why doesn't it say "evenings and mornings"?
On another note, I saw your timeline, I will study it further, it's excellent you're doing this!
Hope to chat more soon
 
Cristo

Cristo

Well-known member
Patmos said:
Thanks for that link, interesting info
I will think about it, but not entirely convinced
Even if the morning and evening offering are one offering, it's still a morning and evening
For example a factory that runs on a 12 hour shift (a morning shift and evening shift), even if it produced one product per day, it still has 2 shifts per 24 hours, 14 shifts per week, 2300 shifts in 1150 days - so I don't see how the number of products made or offerings sacrificed is relevant
Further, why would the prophecy say 2300 "evenings and mornings" if it just meant 2300 days? By contrast Daniel 12 says 1290 days in reference to the constant feature, why doesn't it say "evenings and mornings"?
On another note, I saw your timeline, I will study it further, it's excellent you're doing this!
Hope to chat more soon
Click to expand...
Patmos, you seem to have answered your own question.

The whole reason people look at the prophecy of 2300 days, and split it in half, is because of the two sacrifices that are made on the same day. However, you yourself just said 'even if the morning and evening offering are one offering' thus admitting to yourself that the whole basis for splitting the 2300 days in two is invalid.



Patmos said:
Further, why would the prophecy say 2300 "evenings and mornings" if it just meant 2300 days?
Click to expand...

What are you suggesting, that we should not perceive the first days of creation to be days, but half days, and split in two?

(Ge 1:5) “. . .And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.”​
​
(Ge 1:8) “. . .And God began to call the expanse Heaven. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a second day.”​
​
(Ge 1:12-13) “. . .Then God saw that [it was] good. 13 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a third day.”​
​
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top