August 2nd - Before the founding of the world

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
How often they . . . made him feel hurt.—Ps. 78:40.

Has one of your loved ones been disfellowshipped from the congregation? That can be heartbreaking! Think how heartbroken Jehovah must have been when members of his own angelic family turned their back on him! (Jude 6) And imagine how hurt he was at seeing his beloved people, the Israelites, rebel against him time and again. (Ps. 78:41) Be assured that our loving heavenly Father is also hurt when someone you love leaves him. He understands the grief you are experiencing. He will compassionately provide you with the encouragement and the support you need. When a precious son or daughter leaves Jehovah, it is common for the parents to wonder what more they could have done to help their young one stay in the truth. One brother said: “I blamed myself. I had nightmares about it.” A sister who faced a similar situation, agonized: “What did I do wrong as a mother? I felt that I must have failed to inculcate the truth in my son.” w21.09 26 ¶1-2, 4
It is sad, tragic even, when someone raised in a Christian household decides to delve into a world that is passing away soon. It is true, there are many stumbling blocks, but that is no excuse for turning one's back on God. I pity the people who were born in places where Christianity and the Bible are suppressed. There is little opportunity for them to know the truth. We are talking about billions of Hindus, Muslims, and those living in Oriental cultures under communist regimes. People in the realm of Christendom have been blessed to live during a time of peace when it is relatively easy to be a Christian. All that is going to change.

As far as God feeling hurt at heart, God knows since the fall people are evilly inclined. Even those who try to do what is right find it impossible to be truly righteous. Still, Jehovah is disappointed when we sin against him and grieve the holy spirit.

Some weeks ago, someone on this forum made the claim that God knew beforehand that Satan would become an opposer and that Adam and Eve would follow him and rebel too. Supposedly, that is what Jesus meant when he used the expression "before the founding of the world." There are multiple meanings of the word "world." It can mean the system, which is what John was referring to when he said do not be loving the world or the things in the world. Or, It can refer to mankind. That is the world that God loved so much he gave his only begotten Son.

So, which world was Jesus referring to when he used the expression "before the founding of the world"? Jesus was referencing the beginning of the world of mankind birthed from the fallen parents, Adam and Eve outside Eden. How do we know? Because it is evident from what Jesus stated at Luke 11:49-51: "That is why the wisdom of God also said: ‘I will send prophets and apostles to them, and they will kill and persecute some of them, so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation."

Obviously, there was no blood spilled before Adam and Eve were created. Neither was there any bloodshed in the paradise of Eden. But the very first man born, whose name was Cain, became a murderer. He murdered his own brother, Able, who was the second man born to Adam and Eve. Thus, those two humans constituted the founding of the world.

Some say that because God knows everything he knew Satan would destroy his work and plunge the world into sin and death. But take the case of Cain. Did God know that Cain was going to murder his brother? No. God only foresaw the possibility and the evil inclination that Cain was nurturing. That is why Jehovah personally warned Cain, saying to him: “Why are you so angry and dejected? If you turn to doing good, will you not be restored to favor? But if you do not turn to doing good, sin is crouching at the door, and its craving is to dominate you; but will you get the mastery over it?” - Genesis 4:6-7

Had Jehovah known the outcome it would have been rather silly for him to intervene and try to correct Cain before he committed the terrible act.

When God created the angels they were all perfect. They had no evil inclination. They were like children in the company of a loving Father. Heaven was one big happy family. Jehovah trusted all of his sons and loved each and every one of them. Years later after the fall when Satan brought up the issue of Job's integrity, one of Job's accusers falsely said of God: "Look! He has no faith in his servants, and he finds fault with his angels. How much more so with those dwelling in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, who are crushed as easily as a moth!" - Job 4:18-19

Jehovah rebuked Eliphaz and his fellow false comforters for speaking what was untrue. Jehovah had no reason to suspect the covering cherub of Eden would slander his Father and concoct a scheme to subvert God's rulership. The Devil surely shocked and stunned the heavenly sphere. But had God tapped into the angel's private thoughts and discerned the plot he was scheming why would God allow it to go forward? Why didn't Jehovah forewarn the cherub the same way he forewarned Cain? That would have been the least God could have done. The answer is, again, Jehovah completely trusts his perfect heavenly sons. Perfect beings are different than imperfect ones, like us. It was said of Jesus that he would not entrust himself to any man because he knew what was in man.

God had no reason to use his foresight to foresee the heartache that was to come. For example, when the rebellion became full-blown with multitudes of angels coming down to have sex with women, Jehovah said that he regretted making mankind because they were only evil all the time. Had God chosen to foresee the outcome before he even created Adam and Eve why would God subject himself to such heartache and regret? He wouldn't. It is blasphemous to suggest otherwise.

When God gave Adam and Eve the mandate to fill the Earth and subdue it he did not need to have an emergency backup plan in case they failed. He trusted the two perfect humans to carry out his will. However, once the rebellion manifested itself, on the very day that they ate the forbidden fruit, Jehovah foretold the outcome. At that very moment, God determined to produce a heavenly offspring so as not to violate His own self-imposed sabbath as regards creating upon the earth, and to bring into existence a new creation composed of 144,000 bought from the earth. Hence, as a group, they were foreordained from before the founding of the world.

By the way, there is a new feature on e-watchman called Side Notes, where I intend to just post snippets of this and that, whatever I have on my mind at the time.


 
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It is sad, tragic, when someone raised in a Christian household decides to delve into a world that is passing away soon. It is true, there are many stumbling blocks, but that is no excuse for turning one's back on God. I pity the people who were born in places where Christianity and the Bible are suppressed. There is little opportunity for them to know the truth. We are talking about billions of Hindus, Muslims, and those living in Oriental cultures under communist regimes. People in the realm of Christendom have been blessed to live during a time of peace when it is relatively easy to be a Christian. All that is going to change.

As far as God feeling hurt at heart, God knows since the fall people are evilly inclined. Even those who try to do what is right find it impossible to be truly righteous. Still, Jehovah is disappointed when we sin against him and grieve the holy spirit.

Some weeks ago, someone on this forum made the claim that God knew beforehand that Satan would become an opposer and that Adam and Eve would follow him and rebel too. Supposedly, that is what Jesus meant when he used the expression "before the founding of the world." There are multiple meanings of the word "world." It can mean the system, which is what John was referring to when he said do not be loving the world or the things in the world. Or, It can refer to mankind. That is the world that God loved so much he gave his only begotten Son.

So, which world was Jesus referring to when he used the expression "before the founding of the world"? Jesus was referencing the beginning of the world of mankind birthed from the fallen parents, Adam and Eve outside Eden. How do we know? Because it is evident from what Jesus stated at Luke 11:49-51: "That is why the wisdom of God also said: ‘I will send prophets and apostles to them, and they will kill and persecute some of them, so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation."

Obviously, there was no blood spilled before Adam and Eve were created. Neither was there any bloodshed in the paradise of Eden. But the very first man born, whose name was Cain, became a murderer. He murdered his own brother, Able, who was the second man born to Adam and Eve. Thus, those two humans constituted the founding of the world.

Some say that because God knows everything he knew Satan would destroy his work and plunge the world into sin and death. But take the case of Cain. Did God know that Cain was going to murder his brother? No. God only foresaw the possibility and the evil inclination that Cain was nurturing. That is why Jehovah personally warned Cain, saying to him: “Why are you so angry and dejected? If you turn to doing good, will you not be restored to favor? But if you do not turn to doing good, sin is crouching at the door, and its craving is to dominate you; but will you get the mastery over it?” - Genesis 4:6-6

Had Jehovah known the outcome it would have been rather silly for him to intervene and try to correct Cain before he committed the terrible act.

When God created the angels they were all perfect. They had no evil inclination. They were like children in the company of a loving Father. Heaven was one big happy family. Jehovah trusted all of his sons and loved each and every one of them. Years later after the fall when Satan brought up the issue of Job's integrity, one of Job's accusers falsely said of God: "Look! He has no faith in his servants, and he finds fault with his angels. How much more so with those dwelling in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, who are crushed as easily as a moth!" - Job 4:18-19

Jehovah rebuked Eliphaz and his fellow false comforters for speaking what was untrue. Jehovah had no reason to suspect the covering cherub of Eden would slander his Father and concoct a scheme to subvert God's rulership. The Devil surely shocked and stunned the heavenly sphere. But had God tapped into the angel's private thoughts and discerned the plot he was scheming why would God allow it to go forward? Why didn't Jehovah forewarn the cherub the same way he forewarned Cain? That would have been the least God could have done. The answer is, again, Jehovah completely trusts his perfect heavenly sons. Perfect beings are different than imperfect ones, like us. It was said of Jesus that he would not entrust himself to any man because he knew what was in man.

God had no reason to use his foresight to foresee the heartache that was to come. For example, when the rebellion became full-blown with multitudes of angels coming down to have sex with women, Jehovah said that he regretted making mankind because they were only evil all the time. Had God chosen to foresee the outcome before he even created Adam and Eve why would God subject himself to such heartache and regret? It is blasphemous to suggest otherwise.

When God gave Adam and Eve the mandate to fill the Earth and subdue it he did not need to have an emergency backup plan in case they failed. He trusted the two perfect humans to carry out his will. However, once the rebellion manifested itself, on the very day that they ate the forbidden fruit, Jehovah foretold the outcome. At that very moment, God determined to produce a heavenly offspring so as not to violate His own self-imposed sabbath as regards creating upon the earth, and to bring into existence a new creation composed of 144,000 bought from the earth. Hence, as a group, they were foreordained from before the founding of the world.

By the way, there is a new feature on e-watchman called Side Notes, where I intend to just post snippets of this and that, whatever I have on my mind at the time.


A question if I may. How can I grieve the holy spirit? I understand that I can disappoint and grieve Jehovah, but the holy spirit is not a person, at least I've always been taught that this is Jehovah's active force, so how can I grieve a force? It came up in a conversation I had today and I had no answer to that.....
 
A question if I may. How can I grieve the holy spirit? I understand that I can disappoint and grieve Jehovah, but the holy spirit is not a person, at least I've always been taught that this is Jehovah's active force, so how can I grieve a force? It came up in a conversation I had today and I had no answer to that.....
I was told - I have never had it substantiated, that grieving the Holy Spirit was an act of knowing the truth, but deliberately opposing it. I would like to know if that is correct or not. Essentially, I translated it in my mind that Adam for instance was perfect, and knowing the truth of his creation and the command not to take of the tree, decided to do so because he wanted to be as Jehovah, determining good and bad.
 
It is sad, tragic, when someone raised in a Christian household decides to delve into a world that is passing away soon. It is true, there are many stumbling blocks, but that is no excuse for turning one's back on God. I pity the people who were born in places where Christianity and the Bible are suppressed. There is little opportunity for them to know the truth. We are talking about billions of Hindus, Muslims, and those living in Oriental cultures under communist regimes. People in the realm of Christendom have been blessed to live during a time of peace when it is relatively easy to be a Christian. All that is going to change.

As far as God feeling hurt at heart, God knows since the fall people are evilly inclined. Even those who try to do what is right find it impossible to be truly righteous. Still, Jehovah is disappointed when we sin against him and grieve the holy spirit.

Some weeks ago, someone on this forum made the claim that God knew beforehand that Satan would become an opposer and that Adam and Eve would follow him and rebel too. Supposedly, that is what Jesus meant when he used the expression "before the founding of the world." There are multiple meanings of the word "world." It can mean the system, which is what John was referring to when he said do not be loving the world or the things in the world. Or, It can refer to mankind. That is the world that God loved so much he gave his only begotten Son.

So, which world was Jesus referring to when he used the expression "before the founding of the world"? Jesus was referencing the beginning of the world of mankind birthed from the fallen parents, Adam and Eve outside Eden. How do we know? Because it is evident from what Jesus stated at Luke 11:49-51: "That is why the wisdom of God also said: ‘I will send prophets and apostles to them, and they will kill and persecute some of them, so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation."

Obviously, there was no blood spilled before Adam and Eve were created. Neither was there any bloodshed in the paradise of Eden. But the very first man born, whose name was Cain, became a murderer. He murdered his own brother, Able, who was the second man born to Adam and Eve. Thus, those two humans constituted the founding of the world.

Some say that because God knows everything he knew Satan would destroy his work and plunge the world into sin and death. But take the case of Cain. Did God know that Cain was going to murder his brother? No. God only foresaw the possibility and the evil inclination that Cain was nurturing. That is why Jehovah personally warned Cain, saying to him: “Why are you so angry and dejected? If you turn to doing good, will you not be restored to favor? But if you do not turn to doing good, sin is crouching at the door, and its craving is to dominate you; but will you get the mastery over it?” - Genesis 4:6-6

Had Jehovah known the outcome it would have been rather silly for him to intervene and try to correct Cain before he committed the terrible act.

When God created the angels they were all perfect. They had no evil inclination. They were like children in the company of a loving Father. Heaven was one big happy family. Jehovah trusted all of his sons and loved each and every one of them. Years later after the fall when Satan brought up the issue of Job's integrity, one of Job's accusers falsely said of God: "Look! He has no faith in his servants, and he finds fault with his angels. How much more so with those dwelling in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, who are crushed as easily as a moth!" - Job 4:18-19

Jehovah rebuked Eliphaz and his fellow false comforters for speaking what was untrue. Jehovah had no reason to suspect the covering cherub of Eden would slander his Father and concoct a scheme to subvert God's rulership. The Devil surely shocked and stunned the heavenly sphere. But had God tapped into the angel's private thoughts and discerned the plot he was scheming why would God allow it to go forward? Why didn't Jehovah forewarn the cherub the same way he forewarned Cain? That would have been the least God could have done. The answer is, again, Jehovah completely trusts his perfect heavenly sons. Perfect beings are different than imperfect ones, like us. It was said of Jesus that he would not entrust himself to any man because he knew what was in man.

God had no reason to use his foresight to foresee the heartache that was to come. For example, when the rebellion became full-blown with multitudes of angels coming down to have sex with women, Jehovah said that he regretted making mankind because they were only evil all the time. Had God chosen to foresee the outcome before he even created Adam and Eve why would God subject himself to such heartache and regret? It is blasphemous to suggest otherwise.

When God gave Adam and Eve the mandate to fill the Earth and subdue it he did not need to have an emergency backup plan in case they failed. He trusted the two perfect humans to carry out his will. However, once the rebellion manifested itself, on the very day that they ate the forbidden fruit, Jehovah foretold the outcome. At that very moment, God determined to produce a heavenly offspring so as not to violate His own self-imposed sabbath as regards creating upon the earth, and to bring into existence a new creation composed of 144,000 bought from the earth. Hence, as a group, they were foreordained from before the founding of the world.

By the way, there is a new feature on e-watchman called Side Notes, where I intend to just post snippets of this and that, whatever I have on my mind at the time.


In view of what you say then, is it nearer the truth to say that though Jehovah can see the end from the beginning, it refers to being able to consider all eventualities and outcomes, than the actual finality? Watchtower was always unclear and flip flopped on the matter when it suited their desired teachings.
 
A question if I may. How can I grieve the holy spirit? I understand that I can disappoint and grieve Jehovah, but the holy spirit is not a person, at least I've always been taught that this is Jehovah's active force, so how can I grieve a force? It came up in a conversation I had today and I had no answer to that.....
The spirit is often personified because it acts on behalf of the person of God to accomplish his will. God gives his holy spirit to those who obey him, but it is possible to go against the proddings of the spirit, hence grieving God, the Giver of the spirit.

Think of the occasion of the last supper, so-called. Jesus had already sternly counseled the apostles about the need to be lowly and humble. It didn't seem to sink in. There they were, gathered to commemorate Jesus' impending death and the apostles broke out into yet another heated dispute over which one of them was the greatest. The account does not say that Jesus was grieved, but he likely was. Then shortly later in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus was sweating blood in supplication and he asked the apostles to stay awake with him, only to find them sound asleep as the Roman soldiers neared. On that occasion Jesus did express his disappointment, saying to them: “Could you not so much as keep on the watch for one hour with me?
 
I’m not throwing out my crack pipe. It’s the only thing that keeps me sane and I can’t throw out my concubines either because they locked me in the coal shed.
Glad you installed wifi in the shed! P.s That will teach you to give those concubines the key! I was watching the Taliban's press conference; these men looking so impressive with thier dress and AK47's. A simple way to get them all in a flux would be to have Barbie enter the room in full pink regalia! These men can only relate to a female if they are uneducated, in full subjection and showing only their eyes.
 
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Glad you installed wifi in the shed! P.s That will teach you to give those concubines the key! I was watching the Taliban's press conference; these men looking so impressive with thier dress and AK47's. A simple way to get them all in a flux would be to have Barbie enter the room in full pink regalia! These men can only relate to a female if they are uneducated, in full subjection and showing only their eyes.
Don’t get me started on equality issues Mick - you wouldn’t want me in full reply mode on world discrimination …. though i could do you a brief essay of say 250,000+ words if you have a half hour spare…..
 
I just ran into an addition reference that talks about this subject and the term "founding of the earth"


So do you think the founding of the earth began at the bloodshed of Abel? Is that the correct interpretation of this scripture in Luke, or do these verses simply mean that since the founding of the world found at Gen 2:1-3, Abel was the first to have bloodshed spilled?

(Lu 11:49-51) "That is why the wisdom of God also said: ‘I will send prophets and apostles to them, and they will kill and persecute some of them, so that the blood of all the prophets spilled since the founding of the world may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation."​
(Ge 2:1-3) “. . .Thus the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. 2 And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. 3 And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making.”​
 
@kirmmy, no? I understand your reluctance to participate in this, but you already did. How about we just assume(uh oh) that the scripture means the founding of the world began at the bloodshed of Abel. Now ask yourself...why?

Why would the foundation of the world be at the death of Abel rather than the birth? Not that his birth is the true founding of the world either, but at least that would make more sense than to say the world was founded at his spilled blood, would it not?






For those who may be new...

I am the one who Robert stated that someone claimed "that God knew beforehand that Satan would become an opposer and that Adam and Eve would follow him and rebel too."

I was banned when Robert wrote this and did not have an opportunity to defend that I never stated anything of the sort. To misquote somebody out of context, especially if they cannot counter(because I was banned), and to say they said something they didn't say is not honest, it is not truth! I would never say that God knew the angel who became Satan would sin, or that he knew Adam & Eve would sin, for that not only contradicts free will, but the very purpose for which he gave it to his living creation in the first place.
 
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@kirmmy, no? I understand your reluctance to participate in this, but you already did. How about we just assume(uh oh) that the scripture means the founding of the world began at the bloodshed of Abel. Now ask yourself...why?

Why would the foundation of the world be at the death of Abel rather than the birth? Not that his birth is the true founding of the world either, but at least that would make more sense than to say the world was founded at his spilled blood, would it not?






For those who may be new...

I am the one who Robert stated that someone claimed "that God knew beforehand that Satan would become an opposer and that Adam and Eve would follow him and rebel too."

I was banned when Robert wrote this and did not have an opportunity to defend that I never stated anything of the sort. To misquote somebody out of context, especially if they cannot counter(because I was banned), and to say they said something they didn't say is not honest, it is not truth! I would never say that God knew the angel who became Satan would sin, or that he knew Adam & Eve would sin, for that not only contradicts free will, but the very purpose for which he gave it to his living creation in the first place.
Cristo you are so bitter. The truth is a joy, not a question of exactitude in learning. A condition of the heart. A pleasant “yoke” of common understanding that binds people in a joy of service to Jehovah, not because it is ordered and imposed, but because it is the natural way for those that love the Spirit and have come to not just “understand“ it, but to feel within the heart, it’s divine reasoning of what love truly is and means. It is an unfathomable but important point in that the bible is a book of love - without which, it says we have nothing - and yet its pages leave it to us to understand just what that love is, how to develop it and make it grow, indeed to become love in our very essence - as is Jehovah. That love permeates every other attribute of the spirit and underlies its every action. All the knowledge of the bible, of the world, will not bring life until we seek to understand “why” rather than “what”. Have you ever thought “why“ people will are reluctant to engage with you in discussion as you mention so yourself?
 
It is sad, tragic even, when someone raised in a Christian household decides to delve into a world that is passing away soon. It is true, there are many stumbling blocks, but that is no excuse for turning one's back on God. I pity the people who were born in places where Christianity and the Bible are suppressed. There is little opportunity for them to know the truth. We are talking about billions of Hindus, Muslims, and those living in Oriental cultures under communist regimes. People in the realm of Christendom have been blessed to live during a time of peace when it is relatively easy to be a Christian. All that is going to change.

As far as God feeling hurt at heart, God knows since the fall people are evilly inclined. Even those who try to do what is right find it impossible to be truly righteous. Still, Jehovah is disappointed when we sin against him and grieve the holy spirit.

Some weeks ago, someone on this forum made the claim that God knew beforehand that Satan would become an opposer and that Adam and Eve would follow him and rebel too. Supposedly, that is what Jesus meant when he used the expression "before the founding of the world." There are multiple meanings of the word "world." It can mean the system, which is what John was referring to when he said do not be loving the world or the things in the world. Or, It can refer to mankind. That is the world that God loved so much he gave his only begotten Son.

So, which world was Jesus referring to when he used the expression "before the founding of the world"? Jesus was referencing the beginning of the world of mankind birthed from the fallen parents, Adam and Eve outside Eden. How do we know? Because it is evident from what Jesus stated at Luke 11:49-51: "That is why the wisdom of God also said: ‘I will send prophets and apostles to them, and they will kill and persecute some of them, so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation."

Obviously, there was no blood spilled before Adam and Eve were created. Neither was there any bloodshed in the paradise of Eden. But the very first man born, whose name was Cain, became a murderer. He murdered his own brother, Able, who was the second man born to Adam and Eve. Thus, those two humans constituted the founding of the world.

Some say that because God knows everything he knew Satan would destroy his work and plunge the world into sin and death. But take the case of Cain. Did God know that Cain was going to murder his brother? No. God only foresaw the possibility and the evil inclination that Cain was nurturing. That is why Jehovah personally warned Cain, saying to him: “Why are you so angry and dejected? If you turn to doing good, will you not be restored to favor? But if you do not turn to doing good, sin is crouching at the door, and its craving is to dominate you; but will you get the mastery over it?” - Genesis 4:6-7

Had Jehovah known the outcome it would have been rather silly for him to intervene and try to correct Cain before he committed the terrible act.

When God created the angels they were all perfect. They had no evil inclination. They were like children in the company of a loving Father. Heaven was one big happy family. Jehovah trusted all of his sons and loved each and every one of them. Years later after the fall when Satan brought up the issue of Job's integrity, one of Job's accusers falsely said of God: "Look! He has no faith in his servants, and he finds fault with his angels. How much more so with those dwelling in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, who are crushed as easily as a moth!" - Job 4:18-19

Jehovah rebuked Eliphaz and his fellow false comforters for speaking what was untrue. Jehovah had no reason to suspect the covering cherub of Eden would slander his Father and concoct a scheme to subvert God's rulership. The Devil surely shocked and stunned the heavenly sphere. But had God tapped into the angel's private thoughts and discerned the plot he was scheming why would God allow it to go forward? Why didn't Jehovah forewarn the cherub the same way he forewarned Cain? That would have been the least God could have done. The answer is, again, Jehovah completely trusts his perfect heavenly sons. Perfect beings are different than imperfect ones, like us. It was said of Jesus that he would not entrust himself to any man because he knew what was in man.

God had no reason to use his foresight to foresee the heartache that was to come. For example, when the rebellion became full-blown with multitudes of angels coming down to have sex with women, Jehovah said that he regretted making mankind because they were only evil all the time. Had God chosen to foresee the outcome before he even created Adam and Eve why would God subject himself to such heartache and regret? He wouldn't. It is blasphemous to suggest otherwise.

When God gave Adam and Eve the mandate to fill the Earth and subdue it he did not need to have an emergency backup plan in case they failed. He trusted the two perfect humans to carry out his will. However, once the rebellion manifested itself, on the very day that they ate the forbidden fruit, Jehovah foretold the outcome. At that very moment, God determined to produce a heavenly offspring so as not to violate His own self-imposed sabbath as regards creating upon the earth, and to bring into existence a new creation composed of 144,000 bought from the earth. Hence, as a group, they were foreordained from before the founding of the world.

By the way, there is a new feature on e-watchman called Side Notes, where I intend to just post snippets of this and that, whatever I have on my mind at the time.


Gracias por este hilo, lo estaba buscando para profundizar en la respuesta a la pregunta del último post.
 
Cristo you are so bitter. The truth is a joy, not a question of exactitude in learning. A condition of the heart. A pleasant “yoke” of common understanding that binds people in a joy of service to Jehovah, not because it is ordered and imposed, but because it is the natural way for those that love the Spirit and have come to not just “understand“ it, but to feel within the heart, it’s divine reasoning of what love truly is and means. It is an unfathomable but important point in that the bible is a book of love - without which, it says we have nothing - and yet its pages leave it to us to understand just what that love is, how to develop it and make it grow, indeed to become love in our very essence - as is Jehovah. That love permeates every other attribute of the spirit and underlies its every action. All the knowledge of the bible, of the world, will not bring life until we seek to understand “why” rather than “what”. Have you ever thought “why“ people will are reluctant to engage with you in discussion as you mention so yourself?


Damn straight I'm bitter Barnaby...(Cristo got banned)

And just for your information...the truth is not a condition of the heart...although it does play a part in forming it. There is no emotion in truth, but rather in the appreciation for it. Truth is simply truth. There is no need to go on some elaborate lovey dovey explanation of it, it stands on its own.



Robert, I don't mind if you ban me. You'll just wonder every time somebody new joins if its me or not, so whatever.
 
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