Book of Enoch

I don’t believe it’s inspired but does anyone think there is any historical truth to it? Perhaps the description of the giants and the things they did is a true history about them in the book of Enoch, or about the watchers teaching mankind how to do all sorts of bad things. Again I don’t believe it’s inspired but perhaps there is some historical truth in it.
 

SkinnyAndShort

Well-known member
Oh I do agree it’s fake, but at times wonder if some of the stories have any truth to them concerning the giants. Perhaps stories handed down generation after generation from the time of Noah.
 
R

RR144

Guest
I have a few books that collect all those old apocrypha books. Some of them are just plain silly, and others are very entertaining. But who knows? I'll just stick with the 66 we have, better to be safe!
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
Thing about claiming it's inspired or not is 1 Enoch is a collection of five works they have to be assessed individually. The only part that has little discernible value is the book of the heavenly luminaries the others at minimum aid us in understanding common beliefs in second temple period Judaism. Also there's slight variation between Greek and Ethiopic manuscripts and if I remember right some Aramaic copies were sold without the public having access to their content. I believe aspects of it are true and they inform my worldview but don't impose views not directly derivative of the 66 on anyone nor think one should.

Im open minded to the first two sections being semi-legit but am wait and see at the new system about it. The book of the watchers is addressed to the last generation while that does nothing to support inspiration it means like 2 Esdras and 2 Baruch it's better to be familiar than unfamiliar. The book of parables points very much to Jesus and the annointed but since we only have ethiopian copies it can't be proved yet that that portion is a pre Christian text. The latter chapters of the book appear to be more historical background derived from external texts than significant in themes or message.

I would say 1 Enoch is worth a read and greatly superior to 2 and 3 Enoch. From going over them I can say 2 and especially 3 are not worth anyone's time. Jubilees agrees with 1 Enoch and Tobit appears to.
 
Last edited:

Meticulous

Active member
I don’t believe it’s inspired but does anyone think there is any historical truth to it? Perhaps the description of the giants and the things they did is a true history about them in the book of Enoch, or about the watchers teaching mankind how to do all sorts of bad things. Again I don’t believe it’s inspired but perhaps there is some historical truth in it.
Personally have not read the book of Enoch but, reading your posts reminded me of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Interestingly the book predates the bible and speaks of a global flood. Scholars have attempted to discredit the bible stating Moses borrows from the Epic of Gilgamesh in his Genesis account. However, the Epic does not pre date the bibles timetable which places the flood occurring before the writings of Gilgamesh. My conclusion is that these stories contain a fabel or "false religious" representation of truth. Another example would be the Titans of Greek mythology. They did exist and were fathered by God's who committed a form of beastiality with woman. Of course, the true account is that they were angels with humans who made fellers or Nepilim. It's possible the book of Enoch has a similar connection to true events but is not based on truth.
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
Someone suggesting that 1 Enoch is probably a fable or speculative historical fiction is fine it is possible most of it's post exilic fiction based on older traditions, documents and interpretation (contains excerpts from a "book of Noah") but comparing it to Gilgamesh is a pretty messed up comparison given in the epic of Gilgamesh the protagonist based on nimrod goes on a mission to kill the being that caused the flood that's name is a cognate of YHWH decapitating him in those nice cedar forest the bible frequently mentions. The original story of man (supposedly a demi-god) "killing god". worst case scenario it's an uninspired Jewish polemic against pagan myths that isn't immune to errors.
 
Last edited:

Meticulous

Active member
Fortunately I'm not the author of the Epic as that is rather disrespectful to Ja. Maybe Nimrod wrote it. 😉 You nicely summed up the point I was attempting to make, "a fable or speculative historical fiction." Which I feel the books mentioned (aside from the bible) fall under.
 

Petal

Active member
I don’t believe it’s inspired but does anyone think there is any historical truth to it? Perhaps the description of the giants and the things they did is a true history about them in the book of Enoch, or about the watchers teaching mankind how to do all sorts of bad things. Again I don’t believe it’s inspired but perhaps there is some historical truth in it.
Jude14 Yes, the seventh one in line from Adam, Enoch, also prophesied about them when he said: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads 15 to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him.”

This is a reference to the Book of Enoch, which is excluded from the Bible. Did Jude consider this scripture to be like Genesis or Isaiah? Certainly he did consider it authoritative, a true word from God. We cannot tell whether he ranked it alongside other prophetic books such as Isaiah and Jeremiah. What we do know is that other Jewish groups, most notably those living in Qumran near the Dead Sea, also used and valued 1 Enoch, but we do not find it in the Bible. There are also other books referred to in the Bible which do not appear in the cannon.
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
Jude14 Yes, the seventh one in line from Adam, Enoch, also prophesied about them when he said: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads 15 to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him.”

This is a reference to the Book of Enoch, which is excluded from the Bible. Did Jude consider this scripture to be like Genesis or Isaiah? Certainly he did consider it authoritative, a true word from God. We cannot tell whether he ranked it alongside other prophetic books such as Isaiah and Jeremiah. What we do know is that other Jewish groups, most notably those living in Qumran near the Dead Sea, also used and valued 1 Enoch, but we do not find it in the Bible. There are also other books referred to in the Bible which do not appear in the cannon.
2 Peter references it as well.

2 Peter 2:4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tarʹta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;

Peter speaks of the pre flood rebels (the watchers) as being abyssed in the past tense reserved for judgement. The Deuteronomy 32 worldview explains how there can be a wave of angels defecting after the flood the evil princes like in Daniel. And then there are the spirit creature aspect of the 10% of the nephilim that weren't abyssed with the rest a few generations after the flood according to jubilees that serve mastema/satan also sirens (altered by microchimerism mothers of the hybrids) are briefly mentioned in 1 Enoch and the Septuagint uses that term several times in the old testament.

There's a broader thread for any apocrypha discussion in the bible questions forum section.
 
Last edited:

The God Pill

Well-known member
I've abandoned the claim that seraphs are a higher subset of cherubs and while the serpenty etymology of seraph suggested the devil might've been one I now think he was just what the Bible says a once annointed albeit serpentish cherub. I think the society is correct that they're more or less equal rank but different categories. I say this because in jubilees a group described along with the angels of the pressence (4 of the 7 archangels in Enoch including Michael) are the angels of sanctification (probably the other 3) this would suggest that cherubs order is one modeled after those of the pressence and seraphs after the ones of sanctification.
 
Last edited:

The God Pill

Well-known member
@MuleJule I'm going to link for anyone's evaluation the sole known alternative that was contemporary to the first century Christians to the prevailing view of the period that nephilims angel derrivative aspect persisted as demons. I read Philo's treatise on the giants several weeks ago though I've still got forty left before I've gone through all of his work.


 

The God Pill

Well-known member
The secret of 2 Enoch exposed:

Though it is an amusingly silly read at times it takes very little time going through 2 Enoch to see it's fraudulent and poses doctrinal issues. 2 Enoch also called the secrets of Enoch and Slavonic Enoch has significant features from Egyptian and Babylonian mythology as well as pre Socratic philosophy there are phoenixes and creatures called chalkihydra that resemble the Egyptian goddess Ammit. The foundations of the physical universe are constructed by God ordering the bellies of two odd creatures that while subordinate to him it doesn't sound like he created to burst. I could go on but the important thing is I believe I've uncovered the authorship and agenda of this 1st century forgery.

See people usually look into or reread 2 Enoch because part of it appears to overlap with Paul in 2 Corinthians because the third heaven in 2 Enoch is paradise. It's easy to be curious about the book on if it were familiar to Paul's audience and while undoubtedly if so a "Jewish fable" was right about that detail or they drew from a common tradition of understanding on that detail.

The truth as I discerned today skimming through a portion is quite different while 1st century AD 2 Enoch is not Jewish pseudo epigrapha but a early Gnostic work. The reason I say this is because when you reach the seventh heaven there is The Lord on his throne and The story is fast paced enough this could totally escape the reader but the guy on a throne mentioned in the story when Enoch's in the 7th heaven is different from the god on a throne in the 10th heaven. The entity in the seventh heaven is called Sabaoth one time which is what in the Gnostic hypostasis of the Archons text the leader of the seven archon sons of Yaldabaoth is called Sabaoth that usurps him and becomes the god of the Jews.

It's pretty subtle just like gospel of Thomas is subtler than Thomas the contender and was likewise probably meant as a proselytism tool by gnostic infiltrators of christian congregations and jewish synagogues. A 7th heaven being prominent but having 10 in the story suggest that it's Simonian author was aware of and somewhat in conflict with Ascension of Isaiah (a likely expanded and Christianized text from a Jewish original where God is in the 7th heaven). Because of this while I wouldn't at all make a doctrinal statement that there are not ten heavens it appears like 3 or 7 are more likely figures. Most Gnostics loved and were obsessed with Paul so of course they'd tie some of there work to him and framing a figure as ancient as Enoch as witnessing there mythology would give it the sense of more authoritative than whatever Christians would say Isaiah may have saw from "that lower "blind idiot god" Yaldabaoth or his son Sabaoth."

Essentially each book attributed to Enoch is affiliated with a different religious community.

1 Enoch: Sons of Zadok

2 Enoch: Gnostics

3 Enoch: Mystic Pharisees
 
Last edited:

The God Pill

Well-known member
But the angels transgressed this appointment. and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; —Justin Martyr, Second Apology V

Plutarch…says that the mythical narratives told as concerning gods are certain tales about daemons, and the deeds of Giants and Titans celebrated in song among the Greeks are also stories about daemons, intended to suggest a new phase of thought. Of this kind then perhaps were the statements in the Sacred Scripture concerning the giants before the Flood, and those concerning their progenitors, of whom it is said, “And when the angels of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair, they took unto them wives of all that they chose,” and of these were born “the giants the men of renown which were of old.” For one might say that these daemons are those giants, and that their spirits have been deified by the subsequent generations of men, and that their battles, and their quarrels among themselves, and their wars are the subjects of these legends that are told as of gods. —Eusebius, Preparation for the Gospel 5.4
 
Top