January 1, 2022 - There also will be false teachers among you

therecluse said:
Yes, exactly! The answer is right there and easily discernable, however, I will not answer it until Posstot gives her take. Paul reasoned from the scriptures. The few conversations I have had involving her responses have always been condescending.

Instead of posting: "It looks like you are charging Paul with sinning." It could have just been said: "Hey, this doesn't quite make sense in regards to your commentary, could you please elaborate?"
Click to expand...
Well I am saying, "I don't quite understand this and would you please elaborate?" If you don't mind just send me a PM, everything you wrote above about Satan being allowed into heaven is spot on and seems like a clear contradiction if we understand Paul's words to mean what the WT has always used to justify DF'ing.
 
When it comes to DF'ing a person Jesus was laid the ground work on how it should be handled.
(Matthew 18:15-22) 15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector. 18 “Truly I say to you, whatever things you may bind on earth will be things already bound in heaven, and whatever things you may loosen on earth will be things already loosened in heaven. 19 Again I tell you truly, if two of you on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them on account of my Father in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.” 21 Then Peter came and said to him: “Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him: “I say to you, not up to seven times, but up to 77 times.
Click to expand...
It really needs to be only an absolute last resort if reason cannot be established. Even then it should never be done with the intent of malice or to show "who wears the pants in this house" but rather as an act of self-defense. Unfortunately, the arrangement has been abused like how Jezebel used the Law to kill Naboth killed. Besides, Jesus answered Peter about the issue with forgiveness where we forgive as many times needed. It's hard to do so but necessary if we want any inner peace.
 
jorn said:
First I do not know the word elaborate.
I agree on what you said about these disrespectful brothers and the others that was not disfellowshipped for their behavior. There is no scriptural basis for it.
But it is not a sin to Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.
Click to expand...
Sent a PM, hope that clarifies things for you.
 
Because I have seen Posstot come and go without even acknowledging the comment, I will post my PM here to answer the statement:

To understand Paul's meaning to 1 Co 5:11-13, you have to understand the "congregations" of old. They were not buildings, as there were no "churches", just people's homes to which they would go and congregate to discuss bible subjects. (Philemon 1:2; 1 Co 16:19; Col 4:15; Ro 16:5) Sometimes during these discussions, which could take hours, they shared a meal with each other; they "broke bread". (Acts 2:42, 46) The time for bible discussion was set for a period of time and the meal was to follow for those interested in staying behind. However, any that found themselves conflicting with what was being spoken about at the "meeting", or persisted in immoral behavior, was asked to leave when the meal was being served:

"But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.” - 1 Co 5:11-13

So when Paul was talking about "judging" a man, he was merely talking about looking at the fruitage they display. If they weren't following what Jesus taught, he told them to "remove him" from their private lives, that is, the meal they were to eat. Have no private, personal interaction with them outside of the congregation. With this understanding, all the other scriptures make sense, right?
 
therecluse said:
And here we go again. You sound like the 'governing body' with your handpicked arguments.

Do you not read anything anyone posts? Why do your arguments never hold valid reasoning or a complete thought? Why did God not throw the Devil out of heaven the minute he deceived Eve? Why did Jesus allow Judas to stick around? Those two items alone show that disfellowshipping is a sin because if the Lord of the Heavens and His son never did these things, why should we?

And if Paul is judging, is he living up to Jesus' words:

“Stop judging that you may not be judged; for with the judgment you are judging, you will be judged, and with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you. Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye but do not notice the rafter in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to remove the straw from your eye,’ when look! a rafter is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to remove the straw from your brother’s eye." - Mt 7:1-5

"You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone." - John 8:15

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." - Luke 6:37

And why did Paul say:

"Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes." - 1 Co 4:5

"Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." - Ro 14:4

"But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God." - Ro 14:10

"Therefore, let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way." - Ro 14:13

And what about James:

"There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?" - Jam 4:12

"For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." - Jam 2:13

So now we have a conflict of interests, is Paul a liar, or are you misquoting his verse to suit your needs? I will let you explain that for me since you quoted it.
Click to expand...

If you use a little discernment, you will notice that 'do not judge' does not mean do not judge per se, but do not judge with judgment that you are not prepared to receive yourself if the shoe were on the other foot.

To not judge is stupid. Jno 7:24
 
therecluse said:
Not so, in the early years, even when the apostles were still alive, they tolerated those in the congregation that caused divisions. Paul drew the conclusions of such men based on their fruitage which coincided with Jesus' words that "by their fruits you shall know them". Yes Paul did warn Timothy about Hymenaeus, Alexander, and Philetus in the congregation, but even he didn't remove them, just gave them a scathing review and told people to avoid them. (1 Ti 1:18-20; 2 Ti 2:14-21)

John wrote in his third letter about Diotrephes and described his conduct as being ambitious, proud, rebellious, disrespectful of apostolic authority, and inhospitable. John also added that Diotrephes tried to hinder those desiring to show hospitality to the brothers and to expel these from the congregation. Yet this wicked man was allowed in their midst and had the ability to interact with them at their meetings. In contrast to him, John highlights the goodness of Demetrius to show the dichotomy between the two.

Similar to Diotrephes, we have another example, Satan the Devil. Just like Diotrephes, Satan too is ambitious, proud, rebellious, disrespectful, and inhospitable. Yet, he was allowed to come and go as he pleased from heaven to earth all the way until recently. Up until that point, he could interact with the congregation of Jehovah's angels as he saw fit. This was highlighted in the book of Job where, on two occasions when Jehovah was holding an assembly, Satan strolled right in with the rest of God's angels and proceeded to discuss his plans against Job. (Job 1:6,7; 2:1,2) Here is a being that has caused all of this turmoil to the person of Jehovah and yet God still tolerated his wickedness. Until Jehovah was ready to remove Satan and start His countdown to Armageddon, Satan was allowed to interact with any and all in attendance and come and go as he wanted.

And lastly, in keeping with tolerating wicked men in their midst, Jesus set the same example as his Father. How long did he let Judas remain in his presence even though he knew him to be the one to betray him? Even the other apostles knew he was a thief. (John 12:6)

Paul was concerned about "ravenous wolves" entering the congregation when the apostles were gone but knew they would show up regardless. The most he could do was warn them to look for their fruitage. This is also the very reason why shunning and disfellowshipping is a sin.
Click to expand...

With 'early Christian congregation' I meant early Christian congregation; in the case of Ananias and Sapphira the 'toleration' of their deception lasted for about 3 hours, and the disfellowshiping consisted of termination with extreme prejudice.
 
PJ54 said:
When it comes to DF'ing a person Jesus was laid the ground work on how it should be handled.

It really needs to be only an absolute last resort if reason cannot be established. Even then it should never be done with the intent of malice or to show "who wears the pants in this house" but rather as an act of self-defense. Unfortunately, the arrangement has been abused like how Jezebel used the Law to kill Naboth killed. Besides, Jesus answered Peter about the issue with forgiveness where we forgive as many times needed. It's hard to do so but necessary if we want any inner peace.
Click to expand...

I am sure you mean 'forgiveness upon repentance,' as many times as there is repentance, for there is no forgiveness where there is no repentance.
 
therecluse said:
Yet, he was allowed to come and go as he pleased from heaven to earth all the way until recently.
Click to expand...
According to the latest understanding here on E-Watchman, the Devil being tossed out of heaven initiates the Great Tribulation. So it is mere speculation to state that he has already been hurled down and is just chilling out getting his bearings straight, shaking the dust off as it were in preparation to go ape-sh*t. It's likely still a future event. Just sayin...
 
  • Like
Reactions: J&P
therecluse said:
If they weren't following what Jesus taught, he told them to "remove him" from their private lives, that is, the meal they were to eat. Have no private, personal interaction with them outside of the congregation.
Click to expand...

Do you mean to say that those who taught lies were allowed to do so in the meetings, but were only excluded from eating with the others afterwards?
 
Posstot said:
I am sure you mean 'forgiveness upon repentance,' as many times as there is repentance, for there is no forgiveness where there is no repentance.
Click to expand...
So how do you identify repentance? Its not as easy as just quoting scripture regarding "works befitting repentance". And therein lies the "Catch22". If an elder "doesn't like you", or enjoys retribution for one concealing a sin, even though the person has finally confessed and/or declares repentance, the person can be judged harshly and thrown out. Then, as punishment the elder(s) keep the person locked out until they grovel their way back. Spanish congregations can be particularly ruthless. Whatever the case, the entire disfellowshipping arrangement is absolutely abused/misused. I realize Paul was inspired to write his letters, but I also think there are times he is taken out of context in some cases and he would be concerned with his words being used in a way he necessarily wouldn't have enacted in his time. The disfellowshipping arrangement and committees should be overhauled and re-examined. The "Flock" book has become way to intrusive into peoples personal affairs w/the knowing all the nitty, gritty details of humans failings. In some cases , it acts like a confessional in the catholic church. Confession begins first with Jehovah, then find your way to the elders to be greased with oil since so many cant find the ability to pray to God after sin. But elders seem to view the confession to them primarily. As an elder, the first thing I would ask someone confessing a sin is "Have you first confessed your transgressions to Jehovah from your knees privately?" (The Commentary of James book is an incredible book regarding confession and the purpose of elders. They all should be instructed to read the book.) Also, the extreme way witnesses are admonished to not even acknowledge a d'fd person at the meeting and/or in public and also towards family members has gotten overtly extreme. (I know you're going to quote Pauls' words "don't even greet such a man". Once again I digress as per above and another post elsewhere of mine, I believe there are extenuating circumstances for everyone and that there are sins deemed "wicked" and others less egregious due to fleshly weakness. But if one has never been disfellowshipped, reproved and/or shunned and is one who "enjoys" punishing others for bad deeds, then I guess the arrangement is like a box of chocolates. I really hope the verse @ John 8:11 conveniently removed from NWT Scripture where Jesus supposedly said to the woman, "Go and sin no more", actually occurred. It highlights Jesus practicality and immense tender love...
 
TheJehuChariot said:
So how do you identify repentance? Its not as easy as just quoting scripture regarding "works befitting repentance". And therein lies the "Catch22". If an elder "doesn't like you", or enjoys retribution for one concealing a sin, even though the person has finally confessed and/or declares repentance, the person can be judged harshly and thrown out. Then, as punishment the elder(s) keep the person locked out until they grovel their way back. Spanish congregations can be particularly ruthless. Whatever the case, the entire disfellowshipping arrangement is absolutely abused/misused. I realize Paul was inspired to write his letters, but I also think there are times he is taken out of context in some cases and he would be concerned with his words being used in a way he necessarily wouldn't have enacted in his time. The disfellowshipping arrangement and committees should be overhauled and re-examined. The "Flock" book has become way to intrusive into peoples personal affairs w/the knowing all the nitty, gritty details of humans failings. In some cases , it acts like a confessional in the catholic church. Confession begins first with Jehovah, then find your way to the elders to be greased with oil since so many cant find the ability to pray to God after sin. But elders seem to view the confession to them primarily. As an elder, the first thing I would ask someone confessing a sin is "Have you first confessed your transgressions to Jehovah from your knees privately?" (The Commentary of James book is an incredible book regarding confession and the purpose of elders. They all should be instructed to read the book.) Also, the extreme way witnesses are admonished to not even acknowledge a d'fd person at the meeting and/or in public and also towards family members has gotten overtly extreme. (I know you're going to quote Pauls' words "don't even greet such a man". Once again I digress as per above and another post elsewhere of mine, I believe there are extenuating circumstances for everyone and that there are sins deemed "wicked" and others less egregious due to fleshly weakness. But if one has never been disfellowshipped, reproved and/or shunned and is one who "enjoys" punishing others for bad deeds, then I guess the arrangement is like a box of chocolates. I really hope the verse @ John 8:11 conveniently removed from NWT Scripture where Jesus supposedly said to the woman, "Go and sin no more", actually occurred. It highlights Jesus practicality and immense tender love...
Click to expand...

Excellent comment, I totally agree on every point you make.

Interestingly, the commentary on James was apparently largely written by Ed Dunlap, who was later disfellowshiped for 'apostasy.'

And yes, for what its worth, I totally believe Jno 8:1-11 is genuine, if only dislocated from its original placing in text.
 
Posstot said:
Excellent comment, I totally agree on every point you make.

Interestingly, the commentary on James was apparently largely written by Ed Dunlap, who was later disfellowshiped for 'apostasy.'

And yes, for what its worth, I totally believe Jno 8:1-11 is genuine, if only dislocated from its original placing in text.
Click to expand...
Glad you know about Ed Dunlap. I had also heard Ray Franz may have also played a part in that book too. But I am not 100% to know.
 
therecluse said:
Satan was allowed to interact with any and all in attendance and come and go as he wanted.
Click to expand...

That is not a good argument; what Jehovah does with Satan is not something we should emulate in this case, because He told us to oppose and flee from him, not tolerate him and his mob.

This tolerance thing is a post modern Marxist subversion tactic, so why give it legs to further undermine Christianity?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top