The Tree in Daniel 4

[Patmos]

Daniel chapter 4 is about an enormous tree, chopped down, seven times pass over it.
The interpretation being the tree is King Nebuchadnezzar with his strong rulership, which was cut down when he behaved like an animal for seven years, after which his understanding returns along with his kingdom and majesty.

The watchtower says:
• This account of King Nebuchadnezzar was only an initial fulfilment.
• The greater fulfillment is that the tree represents God’s rulership.
• This rulership was chopped down (interrupted) in 607 BCE when King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon destroyed Jerusalem, ending the kings of Israel whom represented God’s rulership.
• In Luke 21:24 Jesus said ‘Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled’ – so the trampling that started in 607 was still underway (seems odd Jesus said ‘will be’ he should have said ‘will continue to be’)
• Maths to determine 7 times, 3&1/2 times are 1260 days so 7 times = 2520 days, 2520 days represents 2520 years
• 607 BCE + 2520 years = 1914

My questions are:
Does the prophecy in Daniel 4 have a greater fulfillment?
If so, does the tree represents God’s rulership?
If so, what is the correct interpretation of the seven times?
When did/does the seven times begin?
How long is the seven times?
When did/does the seven times end?
Hasn't Satan been the ruler of this system for the last 6000 years?

 

[BagdadBill]

Hasn't Satan been the ruler of this system for the last 6000 years?

Save some for the rest. I'll take a whack at this one. When Adam made his choice, God gave him up to Satan's influence. Maybe not entirely at first but God clearly allowed Satan to make his case. This is what happens when you find yourself involved in interspecies conflicts. This was never about us. Not directly. We got dragged into a battle between Satan and his rebellious angel friends and Jehovah and Jesus, their creators.
Shame on Satan for dragging us into his whiny complaint but here we are. Satan accused us of serving God for personal gain, not because he is righteous and holy. Satan has already read the bible and knows about his destruction. How angry do you suppose he is right about now? On a scale of 1 to 10.

 

[a watcher]

Save some for the rest. I'll take a whack at this one. When Adam made his choice, God gave him up to Satan's influence. Maybe not entirely at first but God clearly allowed Satan to make his case. This is what happens when you find yourself involved in interspecies conflicts. This was never about us. Not directly. We got dragged into a battle between Satan and his rebellious angel friends and Jehovah and Jesus, their creators.
Shame on Satan for dragging us into his whiny complaint but here we are. Satan accused us of serving God for personal gain, not because he is righteous and holy. Satan has already read the bible and knows about his destruction. How angry do you suppose he is right about now? On a scale of 1 to 10.

I think he's at 9 right now. He'll reach 10 when he's thrown out of heaven.

 

[DR74minus]

The tree in Daniel 4 does not represent God's ruler ship. but obviously it is notification to Neb about what will happen in the final part of the days.. It is possible that the seven times may have a future application. I'll leave it there.

 

[Watchman]

What Do The Seven Times Mean?

This article was prompted by a question from a reader. For more questions from readers see the Mailbag. If Christ's presence didn't begin in 1914 like Jehovah's witnesses teach, how do we explain the chronology Jehovah's witnesses use to lead up to 1914, that is, the seven times, or 2520

e-watchman.com

The Appointed Times of the Nations

Commentary on the Daily Text of Jehovah's Witnesses Sunday, December 10 Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?—Acts 1:6. Before Jesus ascended to heaven, his apostles asked the above. Jesus’ answer showed that it was not the time

e-watchman.com

The meaning of the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar’s madness?

Question from a reader in Romania: Jehovah’s Witnesses base their 1914 doctrine on the prophecy found in Daniel 4:10-17. Could you please give me the correct meaning of this prophecy according to your understanding? ANSWER: The prophecy centers on

e-watchman.com

 

[Watchman]

The Watchtower study article for the upcoming week encourages JWs to strengthen their hope in God's promise of everlasting life on earth. That's good. Then comes the delusion. Paragraph 14 says:

"Jesus is now in position in heaven and will fulfill all the promises that Jehovah has made. (2 Cor. 1:20) Since 1914, Jesus has been subduing his enemies. (Ps. 110:1, 2) He and his corulers will soon complete their conquest and will destroy the wicked."

Sure, Psalm 110:1,2 says that Jehovah will place his enemies as a stool for his feet, and then when the appointed time arrives Jesus will subdue all of his enemies. The article makes the preposterous claim that Jesus has been doing that since 1914. In what way has Christ done that? What evidence is there that Jesus has subdued anyone? And if God's enemies were subdued a century ago why are there now more enemies than before? The Watchtower has been completely liquidated in Russia. If Christ has been subduing all of God's enemies for the past 109 years why has he overlooked subduing the enemy in Russia? Of course, no one can answer that because it is not true. There are more enemies of truth now than there ever have been in all history.

Besides, the most effective and insidious enemies of God are not out there in the world. They are located right in the heart of Jesus' congregation. Paul explained that God would allow an operation of Satan to create a faux parousia. Paul explicitly warned the brothers not to believe authoritative proclamations declaring that the parousia has begun and the day of Jehovah is here. That is what the WT has done since its inception in 1878. Paul went on to state that the parousia will not begin unless the apostasy comes first.

Now that world war is in the beginning stages we can expect Jesus to begin his campaign to subdue his enemies very soon; beginning with the man of lawlessness faction at Warwick castle.

The mystery of this lawlessness is at work

Wednesday, September 30 I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. —Luke 4:6. Satan and the demons

e-watchman.com

 

[The God Pill]

The Daniel 4 tree dream is way less significant than the society makes it it's about a judgment that likely wouldn't have even been made if the angels weren't offended by Nebuchadnezzer's arrogance.

The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, the decision by the word of the holy ones, to the end that the living may know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will and sets over it the lowliest of men.’

And because the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, ‘Chop down the tree and destroy it, but leave the stump of its roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze, in the tender grass of the field, and let him be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven periods of time pass over him,’

Jehovah was more an authorizing than an initiatory figure in what happened it was probably because of this that Daniel thought the king might be able to delay, reduce or avert the judgement and why it struck a long time later when he was haughty again.

Because this vision is little more than a window into how angels sometimes approach Jehovah voicing there desire to take someone down a peg in this case because of how much the king exalted himself relative to El Elyon and because there's absolutely nothing connecting it to David's dynasty there is no reason to believe it has any kind of secondary fulfillment especially one as significant as the 1914 hoax

 

[Patmos]

What Do The Seven Times Mean?

This article was prompted by a question from a reader. For more questions from readers see the Mailbag. If Christ's presence didn't begin in 1914 like Jehovah's witnesses teach, how do we explain the chronology Jehovah's witnesses use to lead up to 1914, that is, the seven times, or 2520

e-watchman.com

The Appointed Times of the Nations

Commentary on the Daily Text of Jehovah's Witnesses Sunday, December 10 Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?—Acts 1:6. Before Jesus ascended to heaven, his apostles asked the above. Jesus’ answer showed that it was not the time

e-watchman.com

The meaning of the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar’s madness?

Question from a reader in Romania: Jehovah’s Witnesses base their 1914 doctrine on the prophecy found in Daniel 4:10-17. Could you please give me the correct meaning of this prophecy according to your understanding? ANSWER: The prophecy centers on

e-watchman.com

Thanks, that is good reasoning to explain the 1914 error, though I'm finding that brothers I talk to can't see it

 

[Patmos]

The Daniel 4 tree dream is way less significant than the society makes it it's about a judgment that likely wouldn't have even been made if the angels weren't offended by Nebuchadnezzer's arrogance.

The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, the decision by the word of the holy ones, to the end that the living may know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will and sets over it the lowliest of men.’

And because the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, ‘Chop down the tree and destroy it, but leave the stump of its roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze, in the tender grass of the field, and let him be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven periods of time pass over him,’

Jehovah was more an authorizing than an initiatory figure in what happened it was probably because of this that Daniel thought the king might be able to delay, reduce or avert the judgement and why it struck a long time later when he was haughty again.

Because this vision is little more than a window into how angels sometimes approach Jehovah voicing there desire to take someone down a peg in this case because of how much the king exalted himself relative to El Elyon and because there's absolutely nothing connecting it to David's dynasty there is no reason to believe it has any kind of secondary fulfillment especially one as significant as the 1914 hoax

Would you know much about the watchers & how many times the bible mentions them?
Is the seven times clearly meaning seven years a simple lesson in Dan 4 that is useful to understand that in Rev 12:14 the time times & half a time must be 3 & 1/2 years?

 

[The God Pill]

Would you know much about the watchers & how many times the bible mentions them?
Is the seven times clearly meaning seven years a simple lesson in Dan 4 that is useful to understand that in Rev 12:14 the time times & half a time must be 3 & 1/2 years?

I'd agree it's a good reference point on time times and half a times. Watchers is a class of angel as far as the protestant canon they are only mentioned a few times in Daniel as far as I'm aware though they are mentioned often in several apocrypha. The rebels before the Flood were either exclusively watchers or nearly so, because of this there's a negative connotation people using the phrase in reference to them but not every angel of that category goofed off hence there are good ones like the ones in Daniel.

 

[Patmos]

The Daniel 4 tree dream is way less significant than the society makes it it's about a judgment that likely wouldn't have even been made if the angels weren't offended by Nebuchadnezzer's arrogance.

The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, the decision by the word of the holy ones, to the end that the living may know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will and sets over it the lowliest of men.’

And because the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, ‘Chop down the tree and destroy it, but leave the stump of its roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze, in the tender grass of the field, and let him be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven periods of time pass over him,’

Jehovah was more an authorizing than an initiatory figure in what happened it was probably because of this that Daniel thought the king might be able to delay, reduce or avert the judgement and why it struck a long time later when he was haughty again.

Because this vision is little more than a window into how angels sometimes approach Jehovah voicing there desire to take someone down a peg in this case because of how much the king exalted himself relative to El Elyon and because there's absolutely nothing connecting it to David's dynasty there is no reason to believe it has any kind of secondary fulfillment especially one as significant as the 1914 hoax

Just thinking further on your comment about this tree & seven times not having any kind of secondary fulfillment.
With the visions of the image (Dan 2) & the beasts (Dan 7&8), the interpretation clearly showed a long term fulfillment much further than Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom.
By contrast, with the vision of the tree & seven times (Dan 4), the interpretation was only about Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom. Surely if it had further fulfillment that would have been made clear, even if not easy to understand.
So I think you're right!

 

[Watchman]

Would you know much about the watchers & how many times the bible mentions them?
Is the seven times clearly meaning seven years a simple lesson in Dan 4 that is useful to understand that in Rev 12:14 the time times & half a time must be 3 & 1/2 years?

The only place "watchers" appears in the NWT is the 4th chapter of Daniel. However, in the older Reference NWT "watchers" appears in Judges and Jeremiah too.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

The Watchtower study article for the upcoming week encourages JWs to strengthen their hope in God's promise of everlasting life on earth. That's good. Then comes the delusion. Paragraph 14 says:

Sure, Psalm 110:1,2 says that Jehovah will place his enemies as a stool for his feet, and then when the appointed time arrives Jesus will subdue all of his enemies. The article makes the preposterous claim that Jesus has been doing that since 1914. In what way has Christ done that? What evidence is there that Jesus has subdued anyone? And if God's enemies were subdued a century ago why are there now more enemies than before? The Watchtower has been completely liquidated in Russia. If Christ has been subduing all of God's enemies for the past 109 years why has he overlooked subduing the enemy in Russia? Of course, no one can answer that because it is not true. There are more enemies of truth now than there ever have been in all history.

Besides, the most effective and insidious enemies of God are not out there in the world. They are located right in the heart of Jesus' congregation. Paul explained that God would allow an operation of Satan to create a faux parousia. Paul explicitly warned the brothers not to believe authoritative proclamations declaring that the parousia has begun and the day of Jehovah is here. That is what the WT has done since its inception in 1878. Paul went on to state that the parousia will not begin unless the apostasy comes first.

Now that world war is in the beginning stages we can expect Jesus to begin his campaign to subdue his enemies very soon; beginning with the man of lawlessness faction at Warwick castle.

The mystery of this lawlessness is at work

Wednesday, September 30 I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. —Luke 4:6. Satan and the demons

e-watchman.com

Watchtower did have a point in suggesting that Jesus has been subduing his enemies…well one of them anyway. I recall in 1970, there was Myrtle Blenkenthorpe at Number 8, Empire Way in the East End of London (You do not argue with East End Folk. Think Bronx for translation) - she got it in the neck for correcting the elder when he was giving a talk. She got taken into the back room for a full twenty minutes after the meeting and reputedly gave the elder a black eye, so they then had to call in the travelling overseer. There was a local needs talk a few weeks later advising that sisters should not carry heavy weights in their handbags or use knuckle dusters in settling disputes, but oddly, her husband was made a ministerial servant and the elder concerned was relegated to passing the microphone about during the watchtower study. Success all round. I expect this was the incident watchtower was referring to in the watchtower study article you were referring to. ‘Concrete‘ evidence for subduing was found in the sister‘s handbag.

 

[Patmos]

The tree represented an individual king, Nebuchadnezzar. Not a kingdom, or government. The 7 times, 7 years.
Is it possible the tree, in a larger way, represents Jehovah God as king of earth?
Which he was for a long time, then in a way stood down 6000 years ago, after Jesus reigns for 1000 years then Jehovah will be king again. So a total of 7000 years not as king. Life for animals certainly would have been & will be better with Jehovah as king.
Just an idea, may not be correct.

 

[The God Pill]

Jehovah is always sovereign essentially emperor of the omniverse (so far he never stepped down and one cant say he does in a full sense in the future as him never being subject to the son when he renders all things subject to him implies the father remains sovereign throughout.) merely when it came to our planet after a while after repeated rebellions Eden, the watchers, babel etc he divided the land and people groups into subordinate kingdoms to be run by the princes. Jesus goes forth conquering and to complete his conquest becoming king over the whole earth because the others didn't satisfy jehovah in managing their responsibilities that is why Jesus/Michael transitions from national angel prince to for the millennium ruler of everything save he who subjected all things to him. There are many kingdoms under the sovereign lord Jehovah because for a time it was better than letting humanity unite in tyranny and rebellion like at Babel but in time there will be only one kingdom within Jehovah's omniversal empire as Jesus conquers all rivals.

 

[DR74minus]

Curious to know how things would have progressed if Israel did not want a King. It was not Jehovah's idea, or part of his purpose, at least at the start prehaps, but he allowed them to have one.

 

[The God Pill]

Curious to know how things would have progressed if Israel did not want a King. It was not Jehovah's idea, or part of his purpose, at least at the start prehaps, but he allowed them to have one.

They already had a king just not a human.

7 Then Jehovah said to Samuel: “Listen to the voice of the people as respects all that they say to you; for it is not you whom they have rejected, but it is I whom they have rejected from being king over them. 8 In accord with all their doings that they have done from the day of my bringing them up out of Egypt until this day in that they kept leaving me and serving other gods, that is the way they are doing also to you.

They rejected the more direct theocracy of Jehovah and Michael of the era of Joshua and Judges in favor of human monarchs. The covenant in the wilderness is often noted by scholars as resembling the suzerain vassal treaties of the era.

 

[DR74minus]

They already had a king just not a human.

Kings does not appear to be part of Jehovah's original purpose. It seems to have become part of the resolution or solution to a problem due to the rebellion. prehaps.

So could it be that they ( Israel ) rejected the worship of Jehovah rather than Jehovah as King prehaps.

 

[The God Pill]

Kings does not appear to be part of Jehovah's original purpose. It seems to have become part of the resolution or solution to a problem due to the rebellion. prehaps.

So could it be that they ( Israel ) rejected the worship of Jehovah rather than Jehovah as King prehaps.

There asking for a king was rooted in them not accepting Samuel's sons as potential successors because they were corrupt they weren't aware of any man that could be like the judges of old and they had already been pushing for a king now and then for several generations they had more confidence in a singular human for their army to rally around and for them to fit in with and show off to the nations than they did in jehovah's ability to protect them or provide judges. They has already strayed away from jehovah's worship and been beaten back for many generations at this point so it was rejecting the current non human kingship albeit possibly inadvertently as opposed to rejecting jehovah's worship.

 

[DR74minus]

There asking for a king was rooted in them bot accepting Samuel's sons as potential successors because they were corrupt they weren't aware of any man that could be like the judges of old and they had already been pushing for a king now and then for several generations they had more confidence in a singular human for their army to rally around and for them to fit in with and show off to the nations than they did in jehovah's ability to protect them or provide judges. They has already strayed away from jehovah's worship and been beaten back for many generations at this point so it was rejecting the current non human kingship albeit possibly inadvertently as opposed to rejecting jehovah's worship.

Adam was created to live forever and if Adam did not disobey Jehovah; he ( Adam ) would be still alive today meaning that what took place since the rebellion in Eden till now would not have happened. However that is has happened is a result of the rebellion, but not part of Jehovah’s original purpose for mankind, which include the ransom sacrifice and the line of Kings.

And then there is this, Ps 10:16 and this Ps 97:1 However they are sentiments that do not speak to a time prior to what was written. But speaks to then ( the time of writing) and beyond into the future.

According to the record Kings was not part of Jehovah's original purpose, "Has become King", implies something no?