Who else is staying? What are your reasons?

[JulioG]

If you'd read Robert's book, you'd know that many of those delusions have been dispelled and those of us awake no longer believe those things. Still there are other things solidly fixed in God's word. One of those things is the man of lawlessness.

"Make sure of all things. Hold fast to truth." In other words, don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

definitely sister in this forum there are several who did not read Robert's book...and if they did they must have been thinking of something else when they did.

 

[JulioG]

Lol I don't believe in the trinity... I don't believe I said that anywhere... But I also don't look down on any Christian who has that understanding! They probably believe it because that's what they've been taught; just as I was taught from infancy some wrong things as well.

What I've done, since coming to this sort of revelation at the beginning of covid, is simply talk to other Christians as if they are all my brothers and sisters. It's much better than prejuding everyone, regarding them as unacceptable to God for not being whatever I am. You realize that some you say are pagan for their understanding of the trinity... thought the same of you, most likely, for ever believing in the date of 1914?!!

But now you're refined, you say, you've learned the truth about the truth. Well, many others have some truth too. Many practice good works and strive to be like Jesus, more so than many JWs, yet maybe they need to learn some more truth about their truth too. What we all have in common though, is the basic truth, the foundation; faith in Jesus as being our King.

So when I talk to other Christians, I have let them sharpen me; they have pointed out to me that the 1914 date is wrong. I didn't learn that here. I learned that from discussing scriptures openly (no prejudging and thinking I had the ultimate authority on what the truth was) with a preacher's wife. She was a Baptist. Then my husband showed her where it says Jesus will submit to God what has been submitted to him... and she was shocked by that, as I had been shocked by the 1914 thing... but what did we all have in common? A love for God's Word and a desire to be following after Jesus. Jesus is the truth. Iron sharpens Iron.

We would probably get to the truth about the truth about the truth (lol) a lot faster if we stopped thinking we, ourselves, 100% knew all other things about truth, and instead openly tested it with each other.

dear brother or sister The truth is that I understand many of the things you say and I agree with you on several...for example, I also believe that we cannot judge and say that people of such and such a religion will not be saved, since salvation depends on us remaining faithful to Jehovah and his Christ and the love that we show both now and in the future... but knowledge will also be very important for something the word of God exhorts us to continue after the exact knowledge... so I encourage you to continue your own advice and read Robert King so you can also prove it, not to become a follower of him as you accuse us, but rather to better understand the scriptures... and some will say why do I have to read a man to understand the bible ...wouldn't it be better for each one to delve for himself?...that's very good and Jehovah may even make you understand...but what if he already gave that understanding to another person...wouldn't it be good if listen to that person?...for example...why didn't Jehovah enlighten the eunuch Ethiopian who so wanted to understand the scriptures and sent Philip to explain it to him? It would even help a lot if those who participate in the forum read Robert so as not to get into meaningless debates, since he already answers many of the questions that are asked in his book or in some of the articles he wrote... it would also help we can understand those who leave among the jw and those who stay and thus not be judged against anyone.

 

[Zane]

To fade, or not to fade.

(Matthew 10:35-37) For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.

(Acts 5:20) “Go and take your stand in the temple, and keep on speaking to the people all the sayings about this life.”

(1 Timothy 6:12) Fight the fine fight of the faith; get a firm hold on the everlasting life for which you were called and you offered the fine public declaration in front of many witnesses.

(Titus 1:13, 14) This witness is true. For this very reason, keep on reproving them with severity so that they may be healthy in the faith, 14 paying no attention to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

(Ephesians 5:10, 11) Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; 11 and stop sharing in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness; rather, expose them for what they are.

(Galatians 2:14) But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news, I said to Ceʹphas before them all:

(2 Corinthians 11:10) As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, I will not stop this boasting...

(Galatians 4:16) So, then, have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

(1 Corinthians 11:17) But while giving these instructions, I do not commend you, because it is, not for the better, but for the worse that you meet together.

(Revelation 18:4) And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.

(2 Corinthians 6:16-18) We are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

(1 Corinthians 11:19) For there will certainly also be sects among you, so that those of you who are approved may also become evident.

(Ephesians 6:14-16) Stand firm, therefore, with the belt of truth fastened around your waist, wearing the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having your feet shod in readiness to declare the good news of peace. 16 Besides all of this, take up the large shield of faith, with which you will be able to extinguish all the wicked one’s burning arrows.

 

[Grayson]

It’s very hard for me to stay. My husband had us all watch the last half of the annual meeting tonight and it was so hard. I ended up arguing with my husband and son and being told that I am going to die in Armageddon. After my son left I tried to quietly explain to my husband about 1914 and he just kept shushing me. I have to keep my peace with them from now on. They are far from ready to hear anything I have to say. After tonight I feel more alone than ever.

I’m sorry you experienced that, sounds awful

 

[Grayson]

I’ve never been part of a religion, I can’t answer the question posed. But I can say that I’ve always read my Bible since I was young and I stumbled upon Roberts website a couple years ago and have devoured all of it with Bible in hand. I will only say that I’ve found zero reason to believe thru my reading that an allegiance to any organization is a guarantee of salvation. Jehovah and Jesus are readers of our hearts and minds, I’m sorry to all that experience shunning and being judged, it sounds disheartening

 

[Ms_ladyblue]

To fade, or not to fade.

(Matthew 10:35-37) For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.

(Acts 5:20) “Go and take your stand in the temple, and keep on speaking to the people all the sayings about this life.”

(1 Timothy 6:12) Fight the fine fight of the faith; get a firm hold on the everlasting life for which you were called and you offered the fine public declaration in front of many witnesses.

(Titus 1:13, 14) This witness is true. For this very reason, keep on reproving them with severity so that they may be healthy in the faith, 14 paying no attention to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

(Ephesians 5:10, 11) Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; 11 and stop sharing in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness; rather, expose them for what they are.

(Galatians 2:14) But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news, I said to Ceʹphas before them all:

(2 Corinthians 11:10) As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, I will not stop this boasting...

(Galatians 4:16) So, then, have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

(1 Corinthians 11:17) But while giving these instructions, I do not commend you, because it is, not for the better, but for the worse that you meet together.

(Revelation 18:4) And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.

(2 Corinthians 6:16-18) We are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

(1 Corinthians 11:19) For there will certainly also be sects among you, so that those of you who are approved may also become evident.

(Ephesians 6:14-16) Stand firm, therefore, with the belt of truth fastened around your waist, wearing the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having your feet shod in readiness to declare the good news of peace. 16 Besides all of this, take up the large shield of faith, with which you will be able to extinguish all the wicked one’s burning arrows.

@Zane
You brought out some excellent scriptures that I can see would be able to help someone decide whether to leave or stay. They are very precise and spot on I would say!

We’ve read these verses for years but it never occurred to me that they would apply to some of those taking the lead in the congregation.

For example, reading 1 Corinthians 11:17, I also read verse 18. Then it made me think about what the apostle John wrote to the first century Christian congregation at 3 John 9,10 of a brother named Diotrophes.

“I wrote something to the congregation, but Diotrophes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not except anything from us with respect. That is why if I come, I will call attention to the works he is doing in spreading malicious talk about us. Not being content with this, he refuses to welcome the brothers with respect; and those who want to welcome them, he tries to hinder and throw out of the congregation.”

Diotrophes’ attitude was much like the GB has been copying in our day. Particularly his treatment of others in the congregation. You would think disfellowshipping would have been mentioned because of his disrespect towards the apostles and others. He was even challenging their authority.

I know that I might’ve gotten a little off topic bringing that out but it just points out how far removed the WT has become from the truth about what was being taught to Christians in the first century.
The scriptures you referenced helps us to clearly discern what was going on back then and for us to learn from it.
In other words we need to have critical thinking skills so we won’t be misled along the way.

And we see at Galatians 4:16 describes how many, even today are being shunned because
of telling the truth or exposing certain ones who have a position in the organization. The scriptures also point out different ones who were sharing in unfruitful works and that they should be exposed for what they are. As we all know, brother Robert has been doing his share of this thoroughly as well as many others.

These are all som things we can take into consideration when making the decision to either fade or not fade.
Thanks for sharing these thought provoking verses.

 

[Zane]

@Zane
You brought out some excellent scriptures that I can see would be able to help someone decide whether to leave or stay. They are very precise and spot on I would say!

We’ve read these verses for years but it never occurred to me that they would apply to some of those taking the lead in the congregation.

For example, reading 1 Corinthians 11:17, I also read verse 18. Then it made me think about what the apostle John wrote to the first century Christian congregation at 3 John 9,10 of a brother named Diotrophes.

“I wrote something to the congregation, but Diotrophes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not except anything from us with respect. That is why if I come, I will call attention to the works he is doing in spreading malicious talk about us. Not being content with this, he refuses to welcome the brothers with respect; and those who want to welcome them, he tries to hinder and throw out of the congregation.”

Diotrophes’ attitude was much like the GB has been copying in our day. Particularly his treatment of others in the congregation. You would think disfellowshipping would have been mentioned because of his disrespect towards the apostles and others. He was even challenging their authority.

I know that I might’ve gotten a little off topic bringing that out but it just points out how far removed the WT has become from the truth about what was being taught to Christians in the first century.
The scriptures you referenced helps us to clearly discern what was going on back then and for us to learn from it.
In other words we need to have critical thinking skills so we won’t be misled along the way.

And we see at Galatians 4:16 describes how many, even today are being shunned because
of telling the truth or exposing certain ones who have a position in the organization. The scriptures also point out different ones who were sharing in unfruitful works and that they should be exposed for what they are. As we all know, brother Robert has been doing his share of this thoroughly as well as many others.

These are all som things we can take into consideration when making the decision to either fade or not fade.
Thanks for sharing these thought provoking verses.

Thank you Ms Ladyblue.

Galatians is especially interesting because it gives us an example of how Christ's instructions at Matthew 18:15-17 are to be followed.
The first step is to privately confront a sinner one-on-one, which Paul did with Cephas.

(Galatians 2:11) However, when Ceʹphas came to Antioch, I resisted him face-to-face, because he was clearly in the wrong.

But seeing that it did not work, and since it was already a public matter, Paul moved immediately to step three (Mt 18:17) and confronted him in front of the whole congregation.

(Galatians 2:14) But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news, I said to Ceʹphas before them all:

He did not take him into a backroom and judge him privately, as is done today.
And Peter didn't take that action because he was the only one qualified to do so.
Anyone can, or as James puts it "whoever".

(James 5:19, 20) My brothers, if anyone among you is led astray from the truth and another turns him back, 20 know that whoever turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save him from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

And Paul instructs the Corinthian congregation how to handle it when an issue is brought before them:

(2 Corinthians 2:5-8) Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of you to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. 6 This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man; 7 now you should instead kindly forgive and comfort him, so that he may not be overwhelmed by excessive sadness. 8 I therefore exhort you to confirm your love for him.

Secret backroom meetings are not something the elders are scripturally allowed to call you into, but are what individuals call the elders into if they want to speak to them privately.

(James 5:14-15) Is there anyone sick among you? Let him call the elders of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, applying oil to him in the name of Jehovah. 15 And the prayer of faith will make the sick one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

I know this is also a bit off topic, but anyone who stands up to the elders faces their desire for the unscriptural treatment of secret backroom judgment. If that happens to you, you may wish to insist on doing it the way Christ commanded, and bring the issue before the whole congregation so that you can present your facts to them so that they get a say in the matter, as Christ intended.

Christ himself was falsely accused, judged, and sentenced to death by those in charge. He always knew what was going to happen to him (Jn 18:4), and he didn't want Christianity to be like the Jewish system where those taking the lead judged and sentenced those in their flock. He knew the hearts of men (Jn 2:25), and being an eye witness to human history Christ knew that power tended to corrupt, however insignificant the position of power was. So he initiated a new way of doing things for Christianity so that what happened to him could not happen to his followers. (Mt 16:21; Lu 9:22) The Jewish way was susceptible to abuse. Even good men who had the best of intentions were imperfect and made errors in judgment. But Christ's new way eliminated such things. (1Pe 5:3; Lu 22:26; 1Jo 5:16, 17)

 

[Soul Sage]

I see the importance of a congregation. It's a support base. I'm just realistic about it and know it's not perfect. The ones that expect a perfect organization and perfect leaders are the ones who will stumble the most.

 

[Ms_ladyblue]

I see the importance of a congregation. It's a support base. I'm just realistic about it and know it's not perfect. The ones that expect a perfect organization and perfect leaders are the ones who will stumble the most.

@Soul Sage
Don’t you have support here? I definitely get where you’re coming from, believe me! We’ve just been conditioned for years to believe we need a support base. Where in the Bible is that specifically stated? Jesus gave us all the warnings we needed not to mention the prophecies so we would be able to discern the times and the seasons.

The bottom line is, in that day Jehovah will want us to totally rely upon him. Just as someone said in another thread tonight: ‘Christians will be scattered to the four winds and be humiliated. Salvation will not be an ordinary, pedestrian affair. We will have to beg God to save us. No other way. Those chosen to be with Christ will have to plead for their salvation.’ Read Isaiah chapter 4
And think about how Jehovah always saved his people…they always had to rely on him.

Stop, pray, read the scriptures and meditate on how Jehovah has always dealt with those who call upon him during critical times like this in the past.
But, I have to wonder if you might not be sure about whether or not Jehovah is using a congregation anymore. If you believe he is, then why are you here on this forum?