StopTheInsanity
Well-known member
Great point. When was Adam's and Eve's first experience with death of anyone? Their son, Abel? The animals? Or the first human to age and die was Adam, no?
Will Animals Be Resurrected?
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BARNABY THE DOG.
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Well their children were certainly familiar with death as they made sacrifices to Jehovah. I don’t think that Adam and Eve were mentioned in regard to making sacrifices. Maybe there is something in that in respect of their future hope.
SusanB
Well-known member
I used to have a miniature dachshund that I named Chewy because I lost more than one pair of expensive shoes to him using them as his bone to chew on. But in the Spanish language “chuy” is pronounced the same way as chewy and means “lord” meaning Jesus. So when I would say his name in the presence of spanish speaking people, they would give me a look of shock because they thought that I named my dog Jesus.
BARNABY THE DOG.
Well-known member
I really do not think that the scriptures can be approached with an open mind, or that we should guess at meanings. Analytical reasoning based on what the scriptures say is one thing, as are the facts we see in nature
with regard to the natural rhythms in nature. They are of the creator. Replenishment has its meanings. Death may be one of them insofar as the animal kingdom is concerned. We do not know but certainly it is not reasonable to assume that Satan’s use of an animal would result in the death of all animals. Their lives and ours do not compare in terms of purpose and design. Animals do not appear to have reason above impulse, need, sense and the senses in the choice of application. If they did, then where is their test, and where is their tree of life? Adam and Eve do not appear to have been given an everlasting life, but a perfect body in which life can be expressed eternally, if subjection to Jehovah is rendered freely. Given the test put before them, we cannot assume that they were granted life any more than we are until proving faithful. They chose not to be faithful and thus the result came upon us. Perfection applies to our body. Eternal life is granted conditionally. But life in any body is always perfect is it not? It can be taken away by letting the body die. Life carried on in Adam for nearly a thousand years and his body died. Angels do not have a body. There is a message there to grasp for us.
Jordan Seager
Well-known member
Would the animals be killing and eating each other before or after Adam and Eve sinned as well? Then there's the dinosaurs, who's to know that some were carnivores or scavengers? Just because they had sharp teeth? Sadly these questions are opening up endless diverging philosophical topics, nor can any of them be answered.
StopTheInsanity
Well-known member
This article pondered some of those points: 10/08/82 AW
Part 1
When All Nature Will Be in Harmony
DESPITE the abundant evidence showing that the design in nature requires an intelligent Designer, many persons do not believe that God exists. They feel that a loving Creator would not have designed the violence, killing and wickedness so prevalent on earth.
However, what if God did NOT design the violence and killing? What if he is NOT responsible for the gross wickedness among humans? Instead, what if he detests these things and promises that he will absolutely put them to an end in his own due time?
Who Is Responsible?
A company may manufacture a knife for cutting vegetables. If someone uses this knife to kill another person, who is responsible? Is the manufacturer of the knife condemned? No, the one who misused the knife is guilty.
The human hand is used wonderfully for ever so many constructive tasks. It builds houses, plants trees, picks up needles, tenderly holds babies. But if a man uses his hands to strangle another person, could we charge that the hand was improperly designed? No, it is not the designer who is to blame but the owner.
If a builder constructs a beautiful home and gives it to tenants who vandalize it, who is at fault? Would you charge the builder with the crime? No, you would hold the vandalizers responsible for the wrong. And surely you would not deny that the builder existed just because the tenants were delinquent.
It is contrary to reason and to justice to condemn the innocent. It is contrary to reason to condemn body parts or organs that God designed for a good purpose if they are used differently at present.
In the Bible we have a clear record of God’s purpose for human and animal life on earth, and why they are in chaos today. Further, that record tells us how all nature will soon come into complete peace and harmony.
StopTheInsanity
Well-known member
Part 2
Not Designed That Way
Did the human and animal creations always behave the way they do now? Have they always hurt and maimed and killed? Were they designed to do that?
The answer to these questions is: NO, not at all!
Indeed, is God even the ruler of this present system of things? Is he guiding the nations in their dealings with one another? Again, the answer to these questions is: NO, not at all!
Well, then, just how was it long ago? Why are things the way they are now? Who, indeed, does rule this world? And just how will God bring all nature into complete peace and harmony?
The Way It Was
When God created humans and animals to live on this earth, he did not purpose for them to be killers. They were created to have peaceful relations with one another. Thus conditions were altogether different from what they are today. The record tells us that “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good.”—Genesis 1:31.
The human creation was to have in loving subjection “the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” (Ge 1 Verse 28) None of the animals in the garden of Eden were killers. They were not a threat to man, nor was man a threat to any animal.
God’s Word clearly says regarding the first humans: “I have given to you all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To you let it serve as food.” (Genesis 1:29) Hence, man did not use animals for food.
What was the food of the animals? The inspired record states: “To every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food.” Or, as Today’s English Version of the Bible puts it: “For all the wild animals and for all the birds I have provided grass and leafy plants for food.”—Genesis 1:30.
So when God designed humans, he put them in a peaceful paradise called Eden. He made them to be at peace with the animals, with no violence or killing for food among animals or man. And humans were to keep it that way by caring for themselves, the animals and the garden paradise that they and their offspring would spread to encompass eventually the entire earth.—Genesis 1:27, 28.
StopTheInsanity
Well-known member
Part 3
The Key
How could humans keep this peaceful paradise and live forever on earth, as was their prospect? By obeying God’s laws. That was the key. Why was that so important? Because God did not design humans to be independent of their Maker and still be successful. The Bible clearly says: “To earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”—Jeremiah 10:23.
Mankind’s problems began when our first parents misused their free moral agency. They were seduced by a rebellious spirit creature to believe that they could determine right and wrong without God’s help. They chose independence from God. But that was not the Designer’s fault. “Perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he,” the Bible says. The responsibility for the consequences of rebellion lies with the rebels: “They have acted ruinously on their own part; they are not his children, the defect is their own.”—Deuteronomy 32:4, 5; Genesis 2:15–3:24.
Since humans wanted independence, God gave it to them. However, no longer would he sustain them in perfection. So imperfection and death came into being. (Romans 5:12) And God permitted this—for a period of time—so that all could see what the course of independence would cost mankind, the animals and the earth. For these thousands of years God has allowed this so that once and for all time the sad consequences of rebellion would be manifest.
Thus, independence from God and his laws is what turned man into the way of imperfection, violence and death. Also, as man turned toward lawlessness, the earthly creation, too, became chaotic. Man lost his loving dominion over the animals. Since humans could not control themselves peacefully, it is no surprise that the animals are in the same condition.
The animals—who had a vegetarian diet in Eden, as did humans—began to live off one another, some even eating humans when possible. (Genesis 1:30) And, as a concession for his survival, man was authorized to eat animal flesh for food after the Flood.—Genesis 9:2-4.
Not Designed to Kill
Yet, what about the features of animals and humans that are used for maiming and killing? Since God created a vast variety of different features, many of them could be adapted to the new situation to help in survival.
For instance, most animals would continue to eat vegetation, as is the case down to this day. An example is the powerful gorilla, with its awesome fangs—fangs still used to rip and consume heavy vegetation. But others adapted themselves to eating flesh. Yet predators make up only a very small percent of the animals.
Man, too, has adapted. In his imperfection and waywardness, he often uses his mind and hands to maim and kill. He has even cannibalized other humans for food. And his teeth can be adapted to eating meat, though that was not included in his diet in Eden.
But what of the “balance of nature”? If there was no killing, how would this be maintained? For one thing, it was man who was to live forever on earth. That promise was not given to animals. They would die when their life span was completed.
Also, many animals have built-in mechanisms that reduce their fertility when overcrowding occurs. And this is without God’s direct intercession now. Surely, when God’s time comes for all the earth to be brought back into that peaceful Edenic condition, it will be no great thing for the Grand Designer of animals and humans to control their numbers without violence.
An example of how God can subdue the violence in animals was the peace that existed among beasts and humans for about a year in Noah’s ark.
Keep in mind that what exists today is not what it was like in the paradise of Eden. That environment was vastly different. Many foods were likely different. Probably the animals with hardier teeth had rougher food. Their teeth were designed for that.
Certainly there are questions that cannot now be answered about the exact conditions in Eden. But this does not argue that there was no Designer.
Who Rules This World?
Also, what of the contention, such as Bertrand Russell’s, that anyone who was all-wise and all-powerful should not have made such a mess of this world? He assumed, as do others, that if there is a God he is responsible for this world.
However, the Creator, Jehovah God, is not this world’s ruler. This present system of things is run by men independent from him, and it is manipulated by that unseen spirit rebel, Satan the Devil. The Bible calls Satan “the god of this system of things.” (2 Corinthians 4:4) Jesus called Satan “the ruler of this world.” (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11) The oversight of the nations is what Satan offered Jesus in an attempt to get him to rebel against God.—Luke 4:5-8.
Hence, all the chaos and violence committed by humans is the responsibility of rebellious humans and wicked spirit forces. God is not responsible.
The Restoration
The Bible speaks of the “restoration of all things.” (Acts 3:21) It shows unmistakably that the miserable experiment in independence from God will shortly come to an end. Both the wicked spirit forces in heavenly places and rebellious humans on earth will be cleared out, paving the way for “new heavens and a new earth . . . and in these righteousness is to dwell.”—2 Peter 3:13; see also Proverbs 2:21, 22; Revelation 19:11-21.
Then will begin the restoration of Edenic conditions—of Paradise. (Luke 23:43) That will mean the restoring of peace and harmony between humans and animals, they no longer using one another for food. The Bible states at Isaiah 11:6-9: “The wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain.”
In the human realm, total peace will also be a reality: “He [God] is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; the [war] wagons he burns in the fire.”—Psalm 46:9.
Hence, with good reason does the inspired Bible prophecy say this about the Grand Designer’s soon-to-come new order: “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.”—Psalm 37:11; Matthew 5:5.
While the consequences of rebellion will thus be erased, the idea that our first parents, Adam and Eve, rebelled against God causes some people to wonder. They have been taught to regard Adam and Eve as mythical characters. So can we have confidence that they really existed?
StopTheInsanity
Well-known member
Interesting thoughts you've raised. Let me ponder on them and get back to you.
StopTheInsanity
Well-known member
I don't think Adam and Eve had had children yet when they received the instructions that they would die if they ate of the fruit. The sacrifices that their children made were made after Adam and Eve has sinned and started the death process in their bodies but hadn't died yet.
And, as mentioned earlier death by means of killing is an untimely death, but were animals having natural deaths before Adam and Eve sinned? That's the question.
BARNABY THE DOG.
Well-known member
No one knows. I realise adam sinned before his children were born.
The God Pill
Well-known member
While I am skeptical of animal ressurections or of them living forever I do believe they are more intelligent than most people think as jubilees claims they could speak much like how Balaam's donkey did essentially that they were muted after Adam and Eve sinned so that they couldn't be used by the adversary like what he pulled with the snake.
SusanB
Well-known member
I am a follower of Jesus. Jesus NEVER violated any of Jehovah’s principles. Jesus ate meat and fish and in fact used fish to feed others. I eat meat and wear leather and I don’t apologize for that. While it is always interesting to speculate, this thread is pure speculation with no foundation in the scriptures.
SusanB
Well-known member
By the way, do a search for the word, dog, in the bible. It will show you the attitude that Jesus and Jehovah have regarding dogs. They are a precious part of creation and bring us so much comfort and companionship and yet what is holy is not to be given to dogs. They are not on the same level as humans.
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StopTheInsanity
Well-known member
Genesis 1:29,30 is not speculation. The talk about resurrection is speculative, yes.
We also know of the prophecies in Isaiah about peace between humans & animals and animals & animals thus showing God's desire to bring things back to the way they were in the Garden.
As for Jesus, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, he also practiced Judiasm and paid tax to Caesar even though we know that those will not be part of the new system, so Jesus was mindful of fulfilling his societal obligations at the time he was living knowing that it wasn't time then for the full fulfillment of what he would do later. His main purpose when he came was to preach and also to lay down his life. We'll have to see what the future brings for the rest.
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StopTheInsanity
Well-known member
Okay, after meditating on it, I go back to Genesis 3:14:
New International Version
So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
New Living Translation
Then the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all animals, domestic and wild. You will crawl on your belly, groveling in the dust as long as you live.
English Standard Version
The LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.
Berean Standard Bible
So the LORD God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and every beast of the field! On your belly will you go, and dust you will eat, all the days of your life.
King James Bible
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
New King James Version
So the LORD God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.
New American Standard Bible
Then the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all the livestock, And more than any animal of the field; On your belly you shall go, And dust you shall eat All the days of your life;
When I read those verses, it doesn't appear to be talking to Satan and the rest of the spirit realm, since the rest of the angels hadn't sinned yet, only Satan had, so Jehovah pronouncing judgement on "the rest of all the livestock or animal of the fields" as referred to as "more than" wouldn't make sense
As to
To me, the above scriptures seem to indicate that the wording "more than all the livestock" would mean that a curse was put on all animals by God but would especially have been severe on the serpent.
As to
Perhaps the meaning of the words: "Because you have done this" apply to their not "being in subjection" to Adam and Eve which was their scriptural position that they were assigned in Genesis 1:28.
Instead of "being in subjection" they actually betrayed Adam and Eve. It would be like having a watch dog, not only not bark if a robber tried to get into your house, but actually went over and let the robber into the house so that they could steal.
As for why Jehovah would pronounce sentence on all the animals, perhaps it's the same concept as the community responsibility that we've seen else where in the scriptures such as the account of Achan in Joshua 7 where the Israelites were defeated because of the spoil that Achan had taken and hidden?
I don't know. I've mentioned that this is, indeed, as Susan mentioned speculative, but Robert's book has taken a different interpretation different than what most of us have been taught and has shared the scriptural foundation for his reasonings. I am just looking at different accounts and seeing if these are in fact the right understanding as well.
As for what anyone here does with the information, that's an individual decision. It will remain to be seen what the future actually holds.
If it does indeed hold a new diet and an inclusion of animals to be resurrected, then Jehovah's people will need an adjustment in their understanding.
I do know that the scriptures do show that Jehovah fed the Israelites manna in the wilderness which was a vegetable-based food and the Israelites stumbled at it and it became a snare and a test so that would be something to meditate on.
As for animals being: "
I don't agree with that statement. Animals have been shown to make and use tools, they grieve and feel emotion and bond with each other and humans. I think the full extant of the possible relationship between humans and animals remains to be seen in the future. We do have examples of Bart the Bear and Christian the lion showing us that even now, wild "beast" are capable of having loving and safe interactions with humans.
And, as I mentioned earlier, animals clearly have free will because they can either obey or disobey. This is a fact.
I had no idea that this topic would ruffle so many feathers and that was certainly not my intention. I am trying really hard not to be dogmatic or tell people what they have to do, I am just thinking out loud here which I was under the impression was safe to do. Perhaps not?
The God Pill
Well-known member
One thing I will say is that regardless of whether meat will be excluded or not as food in the new system it appears it will be present at the great feast that's provided to the righteous as it's manna, wine and meat from behemoth and leviathan.
Sister, practically every thread on here ruffles someone's feathers so don't worry about it😉. There are many on this forum that feel as you do and would love to see their pets again, only Jehovah knows what the future holds for us in his new system, no one on this thread does, so keep this in your prayers and Stay faithful to Jehovah and I'm sure you won't be disappointed and don't ever let anyone discourage you. 🥰 p.s
I enjoyed your thoughts on this topic.
Here's a picture of my winnie last year, she's lying right on top of me 3 inches from my face while I was sick with covid, stayed by my side the entire time.🥰🥰
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robins
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so even though jehovah may allow us to eat meat after the flood, wouldn't it be fair to say that was not his original intention or will?