Adam and Eve question

יהוה_saves

Well-known member
I think if I could ask Eve one question, it would be why she gambled with forever lasting life knowing if she was wrong about what this snake was telling her, she would die. Why did you gamble with your life and not talk to God about what this snake said to you about eating from this tree.
The account says in verse 6 that Eve saw that the tree looked good for food. Sometimes i wonder if the serpent purposely caught Eve at a time of day where she normally ate and maybe she was hungry on top of everything else. Satan watches and exploits every detail.
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
I'm almost done writing a bit on the adversary and the garden I'll post it tommorow. In the meantime I want to thank our brothers and sisters for there distinct input, thoughts and expressions in every thread. It will certainly be a pleasure to visit one another post clown world when we enjoy what our earliest ancestors squandered.
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
Cherubs are throne guardians think the layers of security to get an audience with a king or some other head of state though it's more of a holiness being up to code thing think of how much preparation the candidates in Esther before approaching the king twelve months six treated with myrrh oil six with perfume. Given they're sort of a lower order based on the angels of the pressence and the seraphs are a similar reflection of the angels of sanctification the latter among other duties might help angels to pass cherubs inspection to advance in proximity to the most high to report, petition, take there station or have an audience with him.

There are at least several hundred million angels but could be billions or more for all we know maybe as many as the stars of heaven or more if there's a luminary class one for each stellar body. Think of that kind of role could feed a being's pride for the covering cherub to be one of presumably three stationed in Eden would suggest that before then Gabriel and Michael would be the only layers an angel would have to pass back then after Satan's to interact directly with Jehovah to be removed from that location and job task to be stationed on earth cut off a steady source of ego gratification/narcissistic supply on top of it being on earth rubbed in that everything besides Jehovah and Jesus was made by and for the son and Proverbs indicates Christ in his preexistence had a special fondness for mankind among creation.

When the devil appeared to Eve the word rendered snake is nachash he could very well have appeared like one of the fiery bronze angelic beings in the bible albeit one with snake features the way other cherubs are depicted as resembling other animals. (He would have lost his brightness when he was cursed) The Aramaic Targums indicate the plural sense of Elohim in him saying to Eve you will be like elohim some render it great ones others great angels one could see how she'd be deceived into thinking the nachash a benefactor if she knew it was an angel telling her she'd have knowledge like the spirit creatures if she ate it. When you read Genesis 3 it says Jehovah God walked in the garden it was an instance where it was not the father of course but as the Targums indicate the Word.

Our perception of the adversary is often effected by Isaiah 14 but if you look at the context it's foretelling the war in heaven as the devil goes down to sheol (abyss/tartarus is lowest part of sheol) shortly after his revolt. My point being for all his wickedness Satan's growing madness doesn't reach the point of challenging the father in a direct sense till he's enraged with envy at Christ coronation. The thief comes to steal and kill and destroy like an envious child wanting to subvert, destroy and steal his brother's pets and appropriate a source of narcissistic supply. Of course he quickly grew to hate the father when he was cursed in the garden but if out of nothing but rational fear till the kingdom starts he is cautious not to cross lines that would expedite his judgement and sentence.

One thing I thought interesting is that while for pretty much all human history he's coveted and sought from men the latria only the father should receive he was not so bold as to ask that in tempting Jesus but offered him the kingdoms of the world in exchange for proskynesis.
 
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Paz

Well-known member
That is an interesting thought. I remember discussing it with a wise Brother one time. He came to the conclusion that Jesus offspring would be perfect and grow in number to eventually take over the earth and sinful men would simply go extinct. That wouldn't be the loving God we know though. He's concerned about even his sinful children and wants to give them the opportunity to live forever. It's a good thing that Jah is full of mercy and love and righteousness.
Hi, if Jesus had children then yes they would be physically perfect for a time but such an act by Jesus would have breached his trust with his father Jehovah, he would have imitated the demons who ended up as opposers to Jehovah and in the condition of ‘tartarus’ . His children would have not been giants and yes they would been able to become parents but being physically perfect would not continue since Jesus himself would have been disloyal (loosing Holy Spirit) and thus come under satans control. His offspring would very quickly become imperfect unless they remained (perfectly obedient) by not copying their father (Jesus). If those who chose perfect obedience to Jehovah they would remain celibate knowing this being Jehovah’s will for them. It would have been likely these few obedient ones would be taken by Jehovah as he did with Enoch. Thus no change to humanity except no Christ to die for us.
 

LuisMerino9412

Well-known member
Are there scriptures to show there is not going to be a resurrection for Adam and Eve ? Or is it assumed since they started off perfect and failed that they lose out on life forever?
They sinned being perfect. So, there is no hope for them just like there is no hope for Satan and his demons. They were all perfect. So, they perfectly knew what they were doing, the consequences of their acts. If they decided to believe that the consequences would be others, it was their belief, but not the reality. Maybe we will understand what implies to sin as a perfect creature when we are all perfect and think about it. But in the case of those who reach perfection, it will be completely different, because they will have seen the consequences of rebelling against God. So, it won't be that easy... Haha 😂😂😬😬😖
 
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LuisMerino9412

Well-known member
Cherubs are throne guardians think the layers of security to get an audience with a king or some other head of state though it's more of a holiness being up to code thing think of how much preparation the candidates in Esther before approaching the king twelve months six treated with myrrh oil six with perfume. Given they're sort of a lower order based on the angels of the pressence and the seraphs are a similar reflection of the angels of sanctification the latter among other duties might help angels to pass cherubs inspection to advance in proximity to the most high to report, petition, take there station or have an audience with him.

There are at least several hundred million angels but could be billions or more for all we know maybe as many as the stars of heaven or more if there's a luminary class one for each stellar body. Think of that kind of role could feed a being's pride for the covering cherub to be one of presumably three stationed in Eden would suggest that before then Gabriel and Michael would be the only layers an angel would have to pass back then after Satan's to interact directly with Jehovah to be removed from that location and job task to be stationed on earth cut off a steady source of ego gratification/narcissistic supply on top of it being on earth rubbed in that everything besides Jehovah and Jesus was made by and for the son and Proverbs indicates Christ in his preexistence had a special fondness for mankind among creation.

When the devil appeared to Eve the word rendered snake is nachash he could very well have appeared like one of the fiery bronze angelic beings in the bible albeit one with snake features the way other cherubs are depicted as resembling other animals. (He would have lost his brightness when he was cursed) The Aramaic Targums indicate the plural sense of Elohim in him saying to Eve you will be like elohim some render it great ones others great angels one could see how she'd be deceived into thinking the nachash a benefactor if she knew it was an angel telling her she'd have knowledge like the spirit creatures if she ate it. When you read Genesis 3 it says Jehovah God walked in the garden it was an instance where it was not the father of course but as the Targums indicate the Word.

Our perception of the adversary is often effected by Isaiah 14 but if you look at the context it's foretelling the war in heaven as the devil goes down to sheol (abyss/tartarus is lowest part of sheol) shortly after his revolt. My point being for all his wickedness Satan's growing madness doesn't reach the point of challenging the father in a direct sense till he's enraged with envy at Christ coronation. The thief comes to steal and kill and destroy like an envious child wanting to subvert, destroy and steal his brother's pets and appropriate a source of narcissistic supply. Of course he quickly grew to hate the father when he was cursed in the garden but if out of nothing but rational fear till the kingdom starts he is cautious not to cross lines that would expedite his judgement and sentence.

One thing I thought interesting is that while for pretty much all human history he's coveted and sought from men the latria only the father should receive he was not so bold as to ask that in tempting Jesus but offered him the kingdoms of the world in exchange for proskynesis.
Actually, Satan was the cherub that protected Adam and Eve. He was in charge of them and this planet. He was in a few words, the prince of this planet. That's why he did all that and was allowed to do all that too. Ezekiel 28 shows us that in some way.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Actually, Satan was the cherub that protected Adam and Eve. He was in charge of them and this planet. He was in a few words, the prince of this planet.
I am convinced of this time line:

Jehovah created Jesus, Jesus begins creation by creating Satan. (Whoever he was before becoming Satan.) They were the first two created beings. Also, because it is the nature of the creator to delegate, and because he delegated creation to Jesus, Jesus in turn would delegate creation to those he created. I think it's not only possible, but likely Satan actually created mankind. But as the question goes, "who created the creator?" ANSWER "NO ONE." Because, whoever creates the creator, is the creator, until that person has no creator, and that person is Jehovah. This is why Satan is so arrogant, so pissed and thinks he's so justified! In his mind, because he "created us" we belong to him, and he wants what he thinks "belongs to him." Our worship. Keep in mind though his "creation" would still be "Jehovah's creation" until Satan sinned. So anyhting the angels did, prior to sinning would be in harmony with Jehovah's purposes.

Also, think of it this way, Satan's "blueprint" for making mankind would come from the knowledge and power Jehovah gave Jesus that Jesus gave Satan.

So when Satan, created mankind, he not only had the blueprint for angels and pretty much everything else in his nature that was given to him in the act of his creation, he saw how, in his mind, inferior humans are to angels!

I believe the story of Jacob and Esau is a parallel to the story of Jesus and Satan, with some variations. Satan sold his birthright, by wanting something that did not belong to him. In a sense they were "twins". Jacob and Esau were not identical twins, and so I think there is some similarities in that way as well. Esau wanted "instant gratification", and did not care about his birth rite, possibly because he didn't think he needed it.

In any case, we get no meat to chew on from WT...but I guess that ends up being good for some of us whose minds never stop trying to figure things out!
 
N

no way

Guest
Jehovah will not go against his Word. Adam and Eve received what he said they would.
 

LuisMerino9412

Well-known member
Actually, Satan was the cherub that protected Adam and Eve. He was in charge of the and this planet. He was in a few words, the prince of this planet. That's why he did all that and was allowed to do all that too. Ezekiel 28 shows us that in some way.

I am convinced of this time line:

Jehovah created Jesus, Jesus begins creation by creating Satan. (Whoever he was before becoming Satan.) They were the first two created beings. Also, because it is the nature of the creator to delegate, and because he delegated creation to Jesus, Jesus in turn would delegate creation to those he created. I think it's not only possible, but likely Satan actually created mankind. But as the question goes, "who created the creator?" ANSWER "NO ONE." Because, whoever creates the creator, is the creator, until that person has no creator, and that person is Jehovah. This is why Satan is so arrogant, so pissed and thinks he's so justified! In his mind, because he "created us" we belong to him, and he wants what he thinks "belongs to him." Our worship. Keep in mind though his "creation" would still be "Jehovah's creation" until Satan sinned. So anyhting the angels did, prior to sinning would be in harmony with Jehovah's purposes.

Also, think of it this way, Satan's "blueprint" for making mankind would come from the knowledge and power Jehovah gave Jesus that Jesus gave Satan.

So when Satan, created mankind, he not only had the blueprint for angels and pretty much everything else in his nature that was given to him in the act of his creation, he saw how, in his mind, inferior humans are to angels!

I believe the story of Jacob and Esau is a parallel to the story of Jesus and Satan, with some variations. Satan sold his birthright, by wanting something that did not belong to him. In a sense they were "twins". Jacob and Esau were not identical twins, and so I think there is some similarities in that way as well. Esau wanted "instant gratification", and did not care about his birth rite, possibly because he didn't think he needed it.

In any case, we get no meat to chew on from WT...but I guess that ends up being good for some of us whose minds never stop trying to figure things out!
Jehovah created Satan through Jesus just like everything else. We do not know at what point because the Bible does not say. It's just that like you said Jehovah likes to delegate and Satan was in charge of this planet and protecting Adam and Eve. But he abused of that and made them worship him.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
While I do not subscribe to universal salvation, I do believe it is easier to name the few that will not be resurrected than to count the multitudes that will. I believe every bad thing that has or will happen will be undone based on Isaiah 65:17. Anyone that died a horrible death or suffered for any reason in this life will not recall it in the "real life" (1 Timothy 6:19).

Otherwise, I would have a difficult time accepting that the events recorded at Joshua 6:21 or 8:25, 26 could have been the result of instructions from a loving God. How can any caring entity give an order to a soldier to kill all of the children? Scared mothers clutching their children, protecting them. All executed. Did those soldiers suffer from nightmares (PTSD) recalling those screams? They will not be able to tell us in the resurrection because all memory of those events will be wiped out. Only the scriptural accounts will remain. That is my belief.

We see life through a narrow window and with little power. Life is not precious to Jehovah because no life is ever lost to him (Matthew 22:31, 32; Ecclesiastes 12:7). He is the source of life and can recreate anyone at any time. It is the individual that is important and he promises to fulfill the desire of every living thing (Psalm 145:15, 16). He remembers everything about us (Matthew 10:30). I believe he can selective edit memories as needed. That idea of memory editing helps me when I begin to fear the things that must shortly take place.

As far as Adam and Eve? I cannot see how they would escape permanent death. They rejected God's authority similar to those who will take the mark of the beast in the future. They had far easier circumstances for obedience. However, I defer to Jehovah's perfect justice. Whatever he decides will be correct.
It’s so nice to see new members with such thoughtful replies. I’m enjoying your comments. Thank you.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
After the idea of remaining in the land of the living was expressed in one of the GB updates, I had to do some very deep soul-searching with regard to life, how Jehovah really views it, and how I view it. The thoughts I expressed above were the culmination of a lot of prayer and study. I still have much more to learn.

I've been lurking on this forum for months. I've read many powerful and thought-provoking comments. I began to realize I was not the spiritual person I had imagined I was. My knowledge was based on the words of men and not Jehovah.

It is a challenge to express my thoughts on the scriptures without the crutch of a WT pub reference. I apologize, in advance, if I step on any toes.
My toes are good. Interesting signature line.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
…Life is not precious to Jehovah because no life is ever lost to him (Matthew 22:31, 32; Ecclesiastes 12:7). He is the source of life and can recreate anyone at any time. It is the individual that is important and he promises to fulfill the desire of every living thing (Psalm 145:15, 16). He remembers everything about us (Matthew 10:30). I believe he can selective edit memories as needed. That idea of memory editing helps me when I begin to fear the things that must shortly take place.
The only thing I will disagree with is your conclusion that “Life is not precious to Jehovah”. I do think life is not only precious but sacred in that he gave us the gift of life so that we can enjoy our place in his universe and willingly serve him. While I understand your thinking that he can restore life because he is the source of life, it is still a very precious and valuable gift and he wants us to appreciate it. I guess I would liken it to a person who has a lot of money but then takes the time to choose a gift for another person. He puts tremendous thought, expense and effort in choosing the perfect gift and then gives to the beloved. Even though the gift could be duplicated since the giver is rich, it is nonetheless precious and full of meaning. And, in the case of the gift of life, it is actually sacred too, or should be. Our lives should be set aside in the service of our God. Even though he can recreate us, any loss of life is truly a loss and to be grieved.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
That verse in Revelation in so dramatic in my mind. It falls right after the dragon has made attempts to destroy the male child, and then the woman that gave birth to him, and finally to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring and then... "it stood still on the sand of the sea".

Why? Why did the dragon stop? He didn't. He changed direction. The frontal assault was not working. His focus was now on the beast arising from the sea. I have so much more to understand about this. But that scripture ignites my imagination. Studying Revelation has become a passion. Bordering on obsessive.

I have come to accept that I will not be given spirit to understand it on my own. That is for others. So I am content with identifying the features of each beast so that when someone who claims to have insight steps forward, I can confirm with God's word.
Well said. Great explanation.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
I understand. However, if life is precious to Jehovah, why would he command the army of Israel to put children to death (1 Samuel 15:2, 3)? The only way I can see past this is to believe that Jehovah sees life from an entirely different perspective than I do. Those children were precious. Their life will be restored to them in a better time and a better world than the one they were born into.

My mercy, compassion, and justice are not greater than Jehovah's. If it pains my heart to think of what those soldiers were asked to do and to think of the terror that those children experienced, it must pain Jehovah more. I could not worship him forever if it did not. So how could he have ordered such a thing? I must believe it is me that does not see things from his perspective. Life to him is different than life to me. I must treat it as a precious gift as I do not control it. He is in full control and can view it differently. It does not need to pain him to order the death of a child if that death is easily reversed and the memory of the event wiped out.

That is how I have come to reconcile this conundrum. Perhaps there is a better way.
I understand your thinking although I don’t agree with it. But you have expressed it well and there are likely many others who will agree. Jehovah can see what a person will become when he becomes of a responsible age. Additionally, it is Jehovah himself who gave the responsibility for children to the parents and that is how I look at it. I believe it is Jehovah himself who allows children, who are not of age to be making their own decisions, to stand or fall with the parents. He respects his own laws even when it pains him, such as with the ransom sacrifice of his son. Plus as you expressed, he can undo the damage at the appropriate time. I also acknowledge that I don’t fully understand Jehovah’s thinking on this other than he is the only one who gets blind trust from me because in my thinking, blind obedience is a part of worship. I completely trust Him even when I may not have full understanding. Isn’t it exciting to know that if we remain faithful, we will have eternity to grow in knowledge of Jehovah and have all of our questions answered?
 
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