Announcement - Special message from GB - prepare for civil unrest

[SusanB]

Most. if not all of the answers and rebuttals to your responses are covered in detail in the full document.
(I created a PDF of it so i could attach it here)

:^)
Dane

It doesn’t change my mind. Here’s the thing for me. I completely appreciate your use of scriptures and there are many scriptures. But after reading the context, I find that most of your argument is taking scriptures out of context and/or coming to conclusions that are just not stated. We need to also look at Jesus’ life along with the harmony of the bible and the fact that Christianity is a refinement to the Law. There are many things the Law allowed or required that are different for Christians. Regarding Jesus whipping the money changers out of the temple, he did not kill them. It is quite different. Plus he could read hearts and we cannot. He has an authority that we do not have. I guarantee you that all those who were whipped by Jesus, recovered very quickly and it was their pride more than anything else that was injured.

 

[SusanB]

@Driven i always though that Luke 22:36 was regarding protection against wild animals, not people. Anyway- I fall in line with your thinking on this issue.

It could be. I don’t know. But what I do know is the example Jesus set and what he directly taught. Those things must harmonize and he said to conquer the evil with good not guns. Regarding those who live by the sword will die by the sword I believe refers to the fact that their trust is in their use of a weapon and that shows a lack of faith in Jehovah. In that sense, that they trust their sword or gun for salvation, is how they will be killed by the sword. I don’t believe it is literal, although very few people with a gun actually kill anyone.

 

[יהוה_saves]

It could be. I don’t know. But what I do know is the example Jesus set and what he directly taught. Those things must harmonize and he said to conquer the evil with good not guns. Regarding those who live by the sword will die by the sword I believe refers to the fact that their trust is in their use of a weapon and that shows a lack of faith in Jehovah. In that sense, that they trust their sword or gun for salvation, is how they will be killed by the sword. I don’t believe it is literal, although very few people with a gun actually kill anyone.

exactly. along with that i’d say that perhaps conceal/carry can have an influence on one’s behavior- perhaps believing carrying gives one an edge over any would-be attacker.

We are rightly risk-averse- we avoid potential situations and circumstances that pose unnecessary risk. Having a firearm or other weapon could lead to unwittingly higher risk taking. IMO.

That said- my daughter lived in downtown Atlanta GA and she nearly got mugged once and so i sent her a canister of pepper spray.

There must be balance in all things.

 

[Sundial]

Jehovah does protect people physically he's simply not obligated to every time one asks so we shouldn't take it for granted. If I'm on the highway driving home and torrential rain starts at a level that there's a high chance I wouldn't make it home in one piece I simply pray and it stops in less than thirty seco

Ecl. 9:11,12. "...Time and unexpected events overtake them." We do the best we can. We implicitly trust in Jehovah. But sometimes there is an element of the unknown or accidental that is unavoidable and not the result of Jehovah not hearing our prayers. We are after all in an imperfect/cruel world that we barely understand, and "because man does not know his time".

 

[BagdadBill]

Interesting comment. Let me ask... Would you agree that each human has been instilled with a natural instinct to live - a will to survive? In fact, do you see this very same instinct in animals? I submit that the fear of death is a natural part of our make-up.

Where the potential for downfall exists is whether that fear of death will motivate us to compromise our faith. When someone puts a gun to your heard and says: "renounce Jehovah or die". Then, your faith will have to be stronger than your will to live, yes?

Really you re-iterated what I am saying. Yes, we have an instinctual fear reflex. The inborn reaction that tells you that you're in danger. I fully expect something like a gun or whatever to be pointed at me at some point. Is it acceptable to thrash them then and there, if we aren't restrained? I'd like to think so but I don't know that. Do we do like Stephen and realize we can't stop the rocks from flying? I am on my feet all day at work and I can kick like a mule. Is there anything that says we are supposed to just give up? What if one of us is given the commission to preach in our last moments at some quarantine camp? Might sound like words but if it's Jehovah's will to give that witness I would imagine we would have a strong feeling to just go along to do just that. Just some loose thoughts I've had.

 

[BillyRay]

Really you re-iterated what I am saying. Yes, we have an instinctual fear reflex. The inborn reaction that tells you that you're in danger. I fully expect something like a gun or whatever to be pointed at me at some Is it acceptable to thrash them then and there, if we aren't restrained? I'd like to think so but I don't know that. Do we do like Stephen and realize we can't stop the rocks from flying? I am on my feet all day at work and I can kick like a mule. Is there anything that says we are supposed to just give up? What if one of us is given the commission to preach in our last moments at some quarantine camp? Might sound like words but if it's Jehovah's will to give that witness I would imagine we would have a strong feeling to just go along to do just that. Just some loose thoughts I've had.

“Is it acceptable to thrash them then and there, if we aren't restrained? I'd like to think so but I don't know that.”

Neither do I Bill.

And what of Stephen? It’s a case that I need to look at. Did he have the means to flee? Did he have the means to assert himself to deter the mob? I don’t know. Is there a point where there is simply no way out and you leave things in Jehovah’s hands?

 

[The God Pill]

Perhaps i should have said, "prayer is good." (Mt 19:17)
My point was that, as the GB has pointed out many times, Jehovah only protects us spiritually, not physically.
As an example, here is a news release from a couple of years ago on jw,org:

"On the morning of October 31, 2014, a bus transporting 57 Jehovah’s Witnesses, who had volunteered to provide Bible education in Las Flores Lempira, crashed en route from San Carlos Choloma. The accident resulted in the death of the commercial bus driver and thirteen Witness passengers, which included two fourteen-year-old girls and an eight-year-old girl."

I have no doubt those wonderful brothers and sisters who were giving their time and effort to travel across country to witness to others prayed ahead of time for a safe trip and were praying fervently as the bus was crashing. If Jehovah were to protect anyone physically, they would definitely have qualified for that protection. There are many other such examples, including those who have been harmed or killed by the so-called CORONA "vaccine".


@Driven - If i implied that taking action to ensure your own personal safety somehow means that you are being disloyal to Jehovah, that was not my intent. I do not believe that at all.


@The God Pill - It was not my intent to be dismissive of prayer. I was not trying to put down praying. Please don't take offense. I was trying to say that praying when you are being attacked instead of protecting yourself is like driving around in your car without your seat belt on because you plan to pray if you are about to get into an accident. Yes, praying is nice good, but if you want added protection while driving you should wear your seat belt.

I know that if i were attacked, i would definitely pray. I would pray for my aim to be true and my attackers aim to be bad.

(Hebrews 13:6) “Jehovah is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?”

A "helper" assists you in what you are doing. If you are not protecting yourself, how can Jehovah help you do it?


@Sunshower - There are always other options. Check out this video:

:^)
Dave

I wasn't offended but thought your prior post in relation to prayer needlessly undermined you arguments my response was slightly tough love advice and assessment of how that part comes across essentially. You're as welcome here as anyone brother have you read Robert's work in relation to the two witnesses?

 

[kirmmy]

I have problems with a short attn…sp….

Oh look! A squirrel!

The gun is ALWAYS loaded. Period!

Exactly. I've had idiots point unloaded guns at me and start spouting Dirty Harry lines. Fortunately for me "I felt lucky". I've had other idiots I know treat guns stupidly when they thought they were unloaded.

I've tried to tell said idiots that you always treat a gun like it's loaded. People are stupid sometimes...

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Oh look! A squirrel!

Exactly. I've had idiots point unloaded guns at me and start spouting Dirty Harry lines. Fortunately for me "I felt lucky". I've had other idiots I know treat guns stupidly when they thought they were unloaded.

I've tried to tell said idiots that you always treat a gun like it's loaded. People are stupid sometimes...

I have seen some extremes in watchtower, one sister telling me that if someone broke into their home and raped her daughters she would have to let it happen….”turn the other cheek”. (It’s true, she actually said that). The other extreme is the gun culture - a cultural issue without resolution. But what is a normality for you guys in the States, would be seen as an extreme in England….at least, the one I grew up with. I still have on my conscience, shooting a sparrow off a chimney pot with an air gun decades ago. Why did I do that? I do not know if I am being naive, but gun or no gun, is not so much a question of safety, but of values and the only weapon I can answer with is that Jehovah is my gun, and I load it with faith. The scripture says that the days will be cut short if any flesh at all is to be saved, and thus if this is true, having a weapon does in no way protect the one wielding it in terms of solving the issue of personal safety, but may (or may not) increase temporary life-span in terms of time alone - yet it adds to their ultimate test, the issue of legitimacy in taking another life. The question being justification - and as we can only guess at the outcome of such legitimacy in taking another life, it leaves open the question of the personal core value of our faith, ergo, one more issue of and in our judgement by Jehovah. At what point then, if the death of another at our own hand is evident, do we trust in Jehovah for our salvation? It seems that having faith in Jehovah to protect us only after we have taken a life to save our own, rather weakens our prayerful pleadings for preservation He had already promised to us. ‘Fear not those that kill the body but cannot destroy the soul.’ It is best to resolve that issue sooner rather than later. (I am not criticising, just wondering how culture moulds our thinking across the cultural soup of the Atlantic!) .

 

[Ms_ladyblue]

I have seen some extremes in watchtower, one sister telling me that if someone broke into their home and raped her daughters she would have to let it happen….”turn the other cheek”. (It’s true, she actually said that). The other extreme is the gun culture - a cultural issue without resolution. But what is a normality for you guys in the States, would be seen as an extreme in England….at least, the one I grew up with. I still have on my conscience, shooting a sparrow off a chimney pot with an air gun decades ago. Why did I do that? I do not know if I am being naive, but gun or no gun, is not so much a question of safety, but of values and the only weapon I can answer with is that Jehovah is my gun, and I load it with faith. The scripture says that the days will be cut short if any flesh at all is to be saved, and thus if this is true, having a weapon does in no way protect the one wielding it in terms of solving the issue of personal safety, but may (or may not) increase temporary life-span in terms of time alone - yet it adds to their ultimate test, the issue of legitimacy in taking another life. The question being justification - and as we can only guess at the outcome of such legitimacy in taking another life, it leaves open the question of the personal core value of our faith, ergo, one more issue of and in our judgement by Jehovah. At what point then, if the death of another at our own hand is evident, do we trust in Jehovah for our salvation? It seems that having faith in Jehovah to protect us only after we have taken a life to save our own, rather weakens our prayerful pleadings for preservation He had already promised to us. ‘Fear not those that kill the body but cannot destroy the soul.’ It is best to resolve that issue sooner rather than later. (I am not criticising, just wondering how culture moulds our thinking across the cultural soup of the Atlantic!) .

BTD
I live in the states and in the south too. But years ago a friend of my older son (when they were young boys) shot a bird with a BB gun right outside our house! I never really liked that boy after that. I felt so bad. Never even would buy toy guns for my kids…huh, oh well, call me old fashioned or whatever.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

BTD
I live in the states and in the south too. But years ago a friend of my older son (when they were young boys) shot a bird with a BB gun right outside our house! I never really liked that boy after that. I felt so bad. Never even would buy toy guns for my kids…huh, oh well, call me old fashioned or whatever.

I recall having been given a brace of toy pistols by my father. They came in a box with red velvet lining and an oil pot too. They were good fun. But when he passed away, I found a rifle he had, loaded it, and took it out into the garden, lay it on the ground and pulled the trigger with a stick. There is no knowing how things progress from childhood….

 

[kenmuldoon55]

Perhaps i should have said, "prayer is good." (Mt 19:17)
My point was that, as the GB has pointed out many times, Jehovah only protects us spiritually, not physically.
As an example, here is a news release from a couple of years ago on jw,org:

"On the morning of October 31, 2014, a bus transporting 57 Jehovah’s Witnesses, who had volunteered to provide Bible education in Las Flores Lempira, crashed en route from San Carlos Choloma. The accident resulted in the death of the commercial bus driver and thirteen Witness passengers, which included two fourteen-year-old girls and an eight-year-old girl."

I have no doubt those wonderful brothers and sisters who were giving their time and effort to travel across country to witness to others prayed ahead of time for a safe trip and were praying fervently as the bus was crashing. If Jehovah were to protect anyone physically, they would definitely have qualified for that protection. There are many other such examples, including those who have been harmed or killed by the so-called CORONA "vaccine".


@Driven - If i implied that taking action to ensure your own personal safety somehow means that you are being disloyal to Jehovah, that was not my intent. I do not believe that at all.


@The God Pill - It was not my intent to be dismissive of prayer. I was not trying to put down praying. Please don't take offense. I was trying to say that praying when you are being attacked instead of protecting yourself is like driving around in your car without your seat belt on because you plan to pray if you are about to get into an accident. Yes, praying is nice good, but if you want added protection while driving you should wear your seat belt.

I know that if i were attacked, i would definitely pray. I would pray for my aim to be true and my attackers aim to be bad.

(Hebrews 13:6) “Jehovah is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?”

A "helper" assists you in what you are doing. If you are not protecting yourself, how can Jehovah help you do it?


@Sunshower - There are always other options. Check out this video:

:^)
Dave

Great point about the Witnesses killed while in direct service of Jehovah.
I’m sure there were loud cries of Jehovahs name in the midst of their demise. So sad.
In a scenario where your life is threatened, one can kill with a closed fist a bat or even a push just as easily as with a gun.
I believe there’s a distinct difference between a righteous self defense situation involving a person and his loved ones and willful unjustified killing.
If faced with such danger I would cry out Jehovahs name loudly if my death seemed imminent and if Jehovahs angel doesn’t neutralize the threat, perhaps a Remington 870 express will.
I think Jehovah helps those who help themselves.
And on what may seem to be a morbid side note,
the wicked person you cause the demise of just may thank you after his resurrection having been spared the possibility of the second death outcome.

 

[BillyRay]

BTD
I live in the states and in the south too. But years ago a friend of my older son (when they were young boys) shot a bird with a BB gun right outside our house! I never really liked that boy after that. I felt so bad. Never even would buy toy guns for my kids…huh, oh well, call me old fashioned or whatever.

I think that you were perhaps right to feel the way you did with the person who shot the bird - which might sound odd coming from a person who hunts.

The difference lies in the purpose. Shooting a creature just to shoot it is wrong in my opinion. When I hunt, I eat what I shoot - whether it be elk, deer, turkey, pheasant, etc… I’ve even had jackets and gloves made from the hides of the deer I’ve taken.

Some people have an issue with hunting. I understand that. Yet those same people stroll through the meat department at their local supermarket - never thinking of how that meat got there. Or, they’ll look down at their new shoes - never thinking about the leather they are made from - or the leather seats in some car models. I could go on.

The point is, that in this system, Jehovah gave us the ability to use animals for food and other purposes. So animals die for a variety of useful purposes. Whether you do the killing, or leave that up to someone else, the result is the same.

 

[BillyRay]

Great point about the Witnesses killed while in direct service of Jehovah.
I’m sure there were loud cries of Jehovahs name in the midst of their demise. So sad.
In a scenario where your life is threatened, one can kill with a closed fist a bat or even a push just as easily as with a gun.
I believe there’s a distinct difference between a righteous self defense situation involving a person and his loved ones and willful unjustified killing.
If faced with such danger I would cry out Jehovahs name loudly if my death seemed imminent and if Jehovahs angel doesn’t neutralize the threat, perhaps a Remington 870 express will.
I think Jehovah helps those who help themselves.
And on what may seem to be a morbid side note,
the wicked person you cause the demise of just may thank you after his resurrection having been spared the possibility of the second death outcome.

Ken, I should have just asked you to write my responses for me. You’ve very well summed up what I’ve been trying to say. “Righteous Self Defense”.

 

[BagdadBill]

I've tried to tell said idiots that you always treat a gun like it's loaded. People are stupid sometimes...

One of the earliest lessons my dad taught me. It wasn't up for debate. Never aim at anything you don't intend to shoot.

 

[Carl]

I see this as two different scenarios of defense: one is an attack by marauders looking to loot, the other is an attack on our faith. If it is Gods will that we are taken before the king, as in Daniel, God has promised that he will be speaking for us. Now if I know that to be my calling I will not be packing a sword at all. And when I go into the synagogue calling out the error of their teaching, that is offensive (not defensive) and I need to turn the other cheek and take all they have got, to death.

This is what I believe as well. We have every right Biblically to protect ourselves against violent mobs, but I won't take up arms against the government, nor will I defend myself if they wish to kill me because of my faith.

 

[Carl]

ou see, she was raised a JW by her mother and her father was terribly abusive. Used to beat his wife and her older brothers even though she and her mother fervently prayed for protection and relief.

If anyone's guilty of your ex's lack of faith, it's her mother and anyone who knew of the abuse, not Jehovah, as it falls on her mother for not leaving the situation after the first instance of abuse. Had she left, and only given him a 2nd chance ONE time, after therapy and true repentance. If he was abusive again, then she should have separated and waited for him to cheat in order to get divorced. I hate when people blame Jehovah for the actions of men.

 

[Dane500]

Interesting comment. Let me ask... Would you agree that each human has been instilled with a natural instinct to live - a will to survive? In fact, do you see this very same instinct in animals? I submit that the fear of death is a natural part of our make-up.

Where the potential for downfall exists is whether that fear of death will motivate us to compromise our faith. When someone puts a gun to your heard and says: "renounce Jehovah or die". Then, your faith will have to be stronger than your will to live, yes?

Is trying to protect ourselves a compromise of our faith? Is doing nothing - and dying because you refused to defend yourself or your family a compromise of our faith? Is it a waste of the gift of life? Is that needless? Is that wasteful? Is it virtually suicidal? I really don't know. My questions are genuine and I'm searching for answers. I certainly need to do more research and pray about the matter.

You are right BillyRay. Jehovah built into us the strong desire to live. It's part of our DNA. People will react much differently than they think they will when the moment comes and their life is on the line. It is typically referred to as the "fight or flight" response. Your heart pumps faster, adrenaline flows, and you flee if you can but fight if you must. A timid little lady will fight like a mother bear if she or her child are in danger.

We may say that we will just stand there and let ourselves be killed because of some principle we profess to believe in, but when that God designed automatic reaction kicks in, we will find ourselves fighting for our lives. Jehovah did not make a mistake when He designed us that way.

The firearms Ramble was written in response to a realization, which is covered in the redacted portion of the Ramble at the end. I will not post that here. Let's just say that i do NOT want to rely on the resurrection!

So what options do i have?

(Matthew 10:22) And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, but the one who has endured to the end will be saved.

(Matthew 24:13) But the one who has endured to the end will be saved.

(Mark 13:13) And you will be hated by all people on account of my name. But the one who has endured to the end will be saved.

I will try my best to make it till Armageddon. If that means fight, when flight is not an option, then so be it. If it is me or them, i choose me.

It doesn’t change my mind. Here’s the thing for me. I completely appreciate your use of scriptures and there are many scriptures. But after reading the context, I find that most of your argument is taking scriptures out of context and/or coming to conclusions that are just not stated.

Thank you for your input Driven. I agree that the context should be taken into consideration for the accurate understanding of any scripture. And trying to rebut an entire article filled with scriptures is a bit much. So let's start with just one scripture. Tell me, please, one scripture that you think i took out of context and we can discuss it calmly and logically. Scriptural accuracy is very important to me, even if it proves me wrong.

:^)
Dane

 

[Dane500]

Where the potential for downfall exists is whether that fear of death will motivate us to compromise our faith. When someone puts a gun to your heard and says: "renounce Jehovah or die". Then, your faith will have to be stronger than your will to live, yes?

Is trying to protect ourselves a compromise of our faith? Is doing nothing - and dying because you refused to defend yourself or your family a compromise of our faith? Is it a waste of the gift of life? Is that needless? Is that wasteful? Is it virtually suicidal? I really don't know. My questions are genuine and I'm searching for answers. I certainly need to do more research and pray about the matter.

You said you need to do more research on this.
You my find this Ramble of interest: "Time of Arrival - comments"
Specifically starting on page 8 under the subheading "Lying".

da.getmyip.com

da.getmyip.com

:^)
Dave

 

[Nomex]

People like the Bush family and all of them, make me wish we believed in Hell.

I posted almost the same thing about something else the other day!