Is Not Sinning Enough?

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

John 8m: 3-11.

The story of the adulterous woman has always caught my attention. Not for the obvious reason, but for the reason that Jesus simply said that he did not condemn her either. Verse 11. Of course, the ethics are clear and probably so obvious that Jesus could well have assumed, that being the case, that the woman would know what to do - even if it were just to mend her behaviour.

In my years in watchtower, there was to my recollection, very little movement away from “not doing” sin. Don’t smoke, do not get drunk, dress properly, obey traffic laws (yes, really); in fact, all the ”do nots” you could think of. What Jehovah condensed into Ten Commandments, the watchtower expanded in to every corner of one’s life. There was nothing about how to positively take upon one’s self the refinements of the Spirit - “perfection“ was to achieve innocence in not sinning it seemed, but nothing toward understanding the attributes of the Spirit. Being a neighbour, friend, marriage partner, socially acceptable person, demanded nothing but the abstinence of sin and in being “loving” through simply not being “unloving” - some might say just being innocuous.

The scriptures tell us that if we have not love, we have nothing. Therefore one might assume that understanding the meaning of love has an attributable insight into our salvation, because it’s application forms the basis upon our judgement in all things and by dint of reasoning then, upon the judgement of Jehovah upon us. Neither is love a given in our personality. It has to be learnt. It’s values tested, its application must be both malleable and flexible, “because it bears all things, hopes all things and - never fails.”. It is therefore a positive asset and an understanding that has application in every aspect of our lives - a morality in application throughout all other events in our lives, and is a tangible, informing asset of our judgement In all things. It also, must have a motivator that would rather die, than break its own standard. It is not then, a simple act of “not doing bad” as watchtower might suggest like growing a beard, or not running off with another’s partner, but a value in and an understanding of inculcating a standard within ourselves that emulates our creator. Because presumably, that very asset formed the basis of our creation. What are your thoughts?

 

[Watchman]

I think you have stumped the forum

 

[a watcher]

I think you have stumped the forum

The only 'walls of text' I read are yours, Robert.

 

[Serenity]

John 8m: 3-11.

The story of the adulterous woman has always caught my attention. Not for the obvious reason, but for the reason that Jesus simply said that he did not condemn her either. Verse 11. Of course, the ethics are clear and probably so obvious that Jesus could well have assumed, that being the case, that the woman would know what to do - even if it were just to mend her behaviour.

In my years in watchtower, there was to my recollection, very little movement away from “not doing” sin. Don’t smoke, do not get drunk, dress properly, obey traffic laws (yes, really); in fact, all the ”do nots” you could think of. What Jehovah condensed into Ten Commandments, the watchtower expanded in to every corner of one’s life. There was nothing about how to positively take upon one’s self the refinements of the Spirit - “perfection“ was to achieve innocence in not sinning it seemed, but nothing toward understanding the attributes of the Spirit. Being a neighbour, friend, marriage partner, socially acceptable person, demanded nothing but the abstinence of sin and in being “loving” through simply not being “unloving” - some might say just being innocuous.

The scriptures tell us that if we have not love, we have nothing. Therefore one might assume that understanding the meaning of love has an attributable insight into our salvation, because it’s application forms the basis upon our judgement in all things and by dint of reasoning then, upon the judgement of Jehovah upon us. Neither is love a given in our personality. It has to be learnt. It’s values tested, its application must be both malleable and flexible, “because it bears all things, hopes all things and - never fails.”. It is therefore a positive asset and an understanding that has application in every aspect of our lives - a morality in application throughout all other events in our lives, and is a tangible, informing asset of our judgement In all things. It also, must have a motivator that would rather die, than break its own standard. It is not then, a simple act of “not doing bad” as watchtower might suggest like growing a beard, or not running off with another’s partner, but a value in and an understanding of inculcating a standard within ourselves that emulates our creator. Because presumably, that very asset formed the basis of our creation. What are your thoughts?

According to the Bible, the Christian needs to not only not do bad, but learn to do good, and to develop the fruitages of the spirit; love, joy, peace, long-suffering (or patience), kindness goodness and faith mildness, and self-control.
Charles Russell wrote and spoke very extensively about the importance of Character Development for the anointed, consecrated Christian, and he strove to develop and reflect those qualities personally. However, when Rutherford took over, after Russell's death, he pretty much ditched the whole emphasis on Character Development aspect of Russell's, and the Bible's, teaching. Maybe that's why there are so many issues in the organization with spousal abuse, child abuse, and other seriously unwholsome traits that would be overcome by focusing more attention to developing the Christian personality. What is sown, is what is reaped.

"Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel! “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of plunder and immoderateness. Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the dish, that the outside of it also may become clean. “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. In that way YOU also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside YOU are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Matthew 23: 24-28

 

[I Like Pizza]

There was nothing about how to positively take upon one’s self the refinements of the Spirit - “perfection“ was to achieve innocence in not sinning it seemed, but nothing toward understanding the attributes of the Spirit.

There are many brothers and sisters Barnaby that love Jehovah and his son who try to emulate him in their lives. To say there was nothing about how to positively take upon one's self the refinements of the spirit within the WT is not true. To merely look at Jesus Christ, the perfect example of what love is in physical form, and to study him and his ways is positively taking upon oneself the refinements of the spirit, especially when we try to follow in his footsteps, which the WT continually taught. Perhaps your congregation did not have the loving elders mine did who tried to show the fruitages of the spirit to the congregation. The taking up of ones refinement process must begin with the desire to do so from the individual, and although their surroundings may not be conducive to this refinement matters not, if they truly want to better themselves, they will. I'm not entirely sure about the point of your post, but you asked my thoughts so I gave a few.

 

[Serenity]

There are many brothers and sisters Barnaby that love Jehovah and his son who try to emulate him in their lives. To say there was nothing about how to positively take upon one's self the refinements of the spirit within the WT is not true. To merely look at Jesus Christ, the perfect example of what love is in physical form, and to study him and his ways is positively taking upon oneself the refinements of the spirit, especially when we try to follow in his footsteps, which the WT continually taught. Perhaps your congregation did not have the loving elders mine did who tried to show the fruitages of the spirit to the congregation. The taking up of ones refinement process must begin with the desire to do so from the individual, and although their surroundings may not be conducive to this refinement matters not, if they truly want to better themselves, they will. I'm not entirely sure about the point of your post, but you asked my thoughts so I gave a few.

It's true, there is some instruction from the Watchtower with regards to developing the fruits of the spirit and the Christian personality, and JW-s are admonished to do so, but no where near the degree of the early Bible Students. Of couse, as the world gets worse and wickedness spreads and wicked persons infiltrate the organization, and if permisive policies exist, that of course contributes to or allows the problems to occur and persist. Even some of those "raised in the truth", including servant's children, seem to have never progressed to addressing some serious character defects, or learned to even show basic kindness and respect, that is often shown many people in the world. It seems that some stop with the knowledge of basic truth and never really progress to become full-grown spiritual persons. And you're right too, in that there are differences in congregations, as Jesus showed when addressing the various congregations in Revelation.

I've seen both sides of the coin though. There are some really fine brothers and sisters, but there is something wrong, something missing. The Watchtower's book, "The Commentary On The Letter Of James" was an excellent book that addressed the Christian personality development. For some reason, the Watchtower ditched that book 🗑 and it's now considered forbidden reading for Witnesses. It's no longer found on JW.org. I wonder why?

 

[Serenity]

"Woe to the sinful nation, the people heavy with error, an evildoing seed, ruinous sons! They have left Jehovah, they have treated the Holy One of Israel with disrespect, they have turned backwards.Where else will YOU be struck still more, in that YOU add more revolt? The whole head is in a sick condition, and the whole heart is feeble. From the sole of the foot even to the head there is no sound spot in it. Wounds and bruises and fresh stripes—they have not been squeezed out or bound up, nor has there been a softening with oil." Isaiah 1: 4-6.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

There are many brothers and sisters Barnaby that love Jehovah and his son who try to emulate him in their lives. To say there was nothing about how to positively take upon one's self the refinements of the spirit within the WT is not true. To merely look at Jesus Christ, the perfect example of what love is in physical form, and to study him and his ways is positively taking upon oneself the refinements of the spirit, especially when we try to follow in his footsteps, which the WT continually taught. Perhaps your congregation did not have the loving elders mine did who tried to show the fruitages of the spirit to the congregation. The taking up of ones refinement process must begin with the desire to do so from the individual, and although their surroundings may not be conducive to this refinement matters not, if they truly want to better themselves, they will. I'm not entirely sure about the point of your post, but you asked my thoughts so I gave a few.

I was simply referring to the watchtower rhetoric and the absence of spiritual guidance. Their teaching is heavily upon negatives. I did not say that there were brothers that did not seek to develop the required spirituality:- If there was truth and food upon the table why the malaise that is watchtower today? I’m sorry you did not see the point of my post. I thought I was clear enough, and at least tried to add to the spiritual issues here. The very point of the issue is whether our understanding of love is sufficient, given the laxity in teaching from the watchtower. If the brethren are “loving” the spirit as presented by watchtower and are content, then clearly their understanding of the requirements in understanding are lacking somewhat. Is that not a fair comment to make? That more is required than mere compliance? It is not a judgement on people, but a question on values. That too is a requirement. I’m sorry that I was not able to express myself clearly enough for you.

 

[evw]

John 8m: 3-11.

The story of the adulterous woman has always caught my attention. Not for the obvious reason, but for the reason that Jesus simply said that he did not condemn her either. Verse 11. Of course, the ethics are clear and probably so obvious that Jesus could well have assumed, that being the case, that the woman would know what to do - even if it were just to mend her behaviour.

In my years in watchtower, there was to my recollection, very little movement away from “not doing” sin. Don’t smoke, do not get drunk, dress properly, obey traffic laws (yes, really); in fact, all the ”do nots” you could think of. What Jehovah condensed into Ten Commandments, the watchtower expanded in to every corner of one’s life. There was nothing about how to positively take upon one’s self the refinements of the Spirit - “perfection“ was to achieve innocence in not sinning it seemed, but nothing toward understanding the attributes of the Spirit. Being a neighbour, friend, marriage partner, socially acceptable person, demanded nothing but the abstinence of sin and in being “loving” through simply not being “unloving” - some might say just being innocuous.

The scriptures tell us that if we have not love, we have nothing. Therefore one might assume that understanding the meaning of love has an attributable insight into our salvation, because it’s application forms the basis upon our judgement in all things and by dint of reasoning then, upon the judgement of Jehovah upon us. Neither is love a given in our personality. It has to be learnt. It’s values tested, its application must be both malleable and flexible, “because it bears all things, hopes all things and - never fails.”. It is therefore a positive asset and an understanding that has application in every aspect of our lives - a morality in application throughout all other events in our lives, and is a tangible, informing asset of our judgement In all things. It also, must have a motivator that would rather die, than break its own standard. It is not then, a simple act of “not doing bad” as watchtower might suggest like growing a beard, or not running off with another’s partner, but a value in and an understanding of inculcating a standard within ourselves that emulates our creator. Because presumably, that very asset formed the basis of our creation. What are your thoughts?

I like your reasoning on this issue and lately I have learned what it really means: the love of Jehovah. How it is a basis for its most important traits: Taurus: Unlimited Power and Strength; the Eagle: Prescient Wisdom; the Lion: Courageous justice; with the connecting factor: Man: the
All-Encompassing Love

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

The only 'walls of text' I read are yours, Robert.

I take it then that you have never read, not the “wall of text” but the positive mountain of text and test of knowledge and understanding that comprises the bible and prefer instead to rely on the word of one man, that incidentally, teaches quite daily, not to do so, and points to the bible. If three short paragraphs on the application of the attributes of the spirit defeat you, then I presume you have never got past chapter three of Genesis? I’m sorry to have presented you with such a challenge.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

I like your reasoning on this issue and lately I have learned what it really means: the love of Jehovah. How it is a basis for its most important traits: Taurus: Unlimited Power and Strength; the Eagle: Prescient Wisdom; the Lion: Courageous justice; with the connecting factor: Man: the
All-Encompassing Love

Thank you. I have to say I had not thought of those illustrations, so many thanks for illustrating them. They are the very points I was hoping to make. Thanks for bringing them to light. They have great meaning in illustration for us.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

According to the Bible, the Christian needs to not only not do bad, but learn to do good, and to develop the fruitages of the spirit; love, joy, peace, long-suffering (or patience), kindness goodness and faith mildness, and self-control.
Charles Russell wrote and spoke very extensively about the importance of Character Development for the anointed, consecrated Christian, and he strove to develop and reflect those qualities personally. However, when Rutherford took over, after Russell's death, he pretty much ditched the whole emphasis on Character Development aspect of Russell's, and the Bible's, teaching. Maybe that's why there are so many issues in the organization with spousal abuse, child abuse, and other seriously unwholsome traits that would be overcome by focusing more attention to developing the Christian personality. What is sown, is what is reaped.

"Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel! “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of plunder and immoderateness. Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the dish, that the outside of it also may become clean. “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. In that way YOU also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside YOU are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Matthew 23: 24-28

Though I’m not a fan of Russell, I do appreciate the development he made in realising the necessary fruits of the spirit in his teaching. It was an era sadly lacking in such attributes of the spirit and few if any of his contemporaries promoted the necessary issues as he did, especially in the care of spirituality - of which love was the foremost - within the congregations. Very much so, the “time was right” for the Spirit to flourish in establishing the work to come. I do not condemn the brethren, as has been suggested by others but acknowledge their spiritually imposed sleep. I thought the discussion of “love” the “doing, the accomplishment, of the Word, would be of intense interest, but I seem to have put my foot in it again.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

I think you have stumped the forum

I’ll go back to my planet.

 

[a watcher]

I take it then that you have never read, not the “wall of text” but the positive mountain of text and test of knowledge and understanding that comprises the bible and prefer instead to rely on the word of one man, that incidentally, teaches quite daily, not to do so, and points to the bible. If three short paragraphs on the application of the attributes of the spirit defeat you, then I presume you have never got past chapter three of Genesis? I’m sorry to have presented you with such a challenge.

Nothing personal. I just lack patience and have a short attention span. Still working on my "Character Development".

 

[steve]

I was simply referring to the watchtower rhetoric and the absence of spiritual guidance. Their teaching is heavily upon negatives. I did not say that there were brothers that did not seek to develop the required spirituality:- If there was truth and food upon the table why the malaise that is watchtower today? I’m sorry you did not see the point of my post. I thought I was clear enough, and at least tried to add to the spiritual issues here. The very point of the issue is whether our understanding of love is sufficient, given the laxity in teaching from the watchtower. If the brethren are “loving” the spirit as presented by watchtower and are content, then clearly their understanding of the requirements in understanding are lacking somewhat. Is that not a fair comment to make? That more is required than mere compliance? It is not a judgement on people, but a question on values. That too is a requirement. I’m sorry that I was not able to express myself clearly enough for you.

Hope i haven't missed the point.

. The very point of the issue is whether our understanding of love is sufficient, given the laxity in teaching from the watchtower.

That is something to be determined through the hour of test. Our love of Jehovah can only be known by Jehovah himself, not even we can know, because our hearts are treacherous and can and will deceive us. When conditions are favourable, it is easy to declare we know truth and love God.
Most witnesses i know or have met, live quite nice affluent lives, snuggled in their quiet suburban homes, and when you live in those comfortable conditions it is easy to declare your love and devotion to Jehovah. The book of Job is an example of such, he lived a righteous life in favourable conditions, and his faith was tested when Satan took it all away. His life was spared. And he proved his love for Jehovah.
Our lives are about to be turned upside down, everything in this system will be swept away, all that we own will be lost, and the difference this time is our lives may even be snuffed out, this will be the greatest test faced by mankind and will reveal what is truly in our hearts.
Fear will be a galvanising factor, it will expose our heart condition, it will expose us for who we really are. And even then, it will be only by Jehovah's spirit and the faith we have in him to lead us through the dark times that we will be able to stand.

 

[StillA_WorshiperOfJah]

Sometimes not sinning requires positive action.
Luke 3:11
"In reply he said to them: “Let the man who has two garments share with the man who has none, and let the one who has something to eat do the same."

 

[DR75 less 1]

Positive action varies with each individual according to circumstances.

 

[Ana]

The only 'walls of text' I read are yours, Robert.

Mi marido hace lo mismo. A veces comparto con el alguna reflexión sobre temas de conversación con otros participantes del foro y quiere saber más. Ah??? Tú te lo pierdes, sigue el foro, le digo...

 

[Ana]

John 8m: 3-11.

The story of the adulterous woman has always caught my attention. Not for the obvious reason, but for the reason that Jesus simply said that he did not condemn her either. Verse 11. Of course, the ethics are clear and probably so obvious that Jesus could well have assumed, that being the case, that the woman would know what to do - even if it were just to mend her behaviour.

In my years in watchtower, there was to my recollection, very little movement away from “not doing” sin. Don’t smoke, do not get drunk, dress properly, obey traffic laws (yes, really); in fact, all the ”do nots” you could think of. What Jehovah condensed into Ten Commandments, the watchtower expanded in to every corner of one’s life. There was nothing about how to positively take upon one’s self the refinements of the Spirit - “perfection“ was to achieve innocence in not sinning it seemed, but nothing toward understanding the attributes of the Spirit. Being a neighbour, friend, marriage partner, socially acceptable person, demanded nothing but the abstinence of sin and in being “loving” through simply not being “unloving” - some might say just being innocuous.

The scriptures tell us that if we have not love, we have nothing. Therefore one might assume that understanding the meaning of love has an attributable insight into our salvation, because it’s application forms the basis upon our judgement in all things and by dint of reasoning then, upon the judgement of Jehovah upon us. Neither is love a given in our personality. It has to be learnt. It’s values tested, its application must be both malleable and flexible, “because it bears all things, hopes all things and - never fails.”. It is therefore a positive asset and an understanding that has application in every aspect of our lives - a morality in application throughout all other events in our lives, and is a tangible, informing asset of our judgement In all things. It also, must have a motivator that would rather die, than break its own standard. It is not then, a simple act of “not doing bad” as watchtower might suggest like growing a beard, or not running off with another’s partner, but a value in and an understanding of inculcating a standard within ourselves that emulates our creator. Because presumably, that very asset formed the basis of our creation. What are your thoughts?

Mi experiencia estuvo definida por el tipo de personas que componían las congregaciones. En mi salón nos reuníamos 3 diferentes y todas estaban llenas de gente joven. Muchísimos adolescentes deseando impresionar a ancianos cuarentones que creían ser los más populares por ese espíritu típico de la juventud. Se recalcaba mucho el pecado también, como tú dices, sobretodo por la pronta edad en la que nos bautizaban. Decenas de jóvenes hormonados examinando a otros jóvenes para tener puntos era todo menos una demostración de amor. No se educaba el ojo para ver el potencial del otro sino la decadencia. Solo la gente mayor me trasmitían paz y amor, solo habia uno, ja! Se llamaba Ángel y sus palabras muchas veces me hacían preguntarme porque no más eran como el y quien había colocado a aquel hombre canoso de ojos azul cielo entre tantas hienas. El amor era idolátrico y la congregación terminó con la mayoría de los jóvenes fuera de ella y con aquellos ancianos abandonando la organización o siendo relevados porque claro, los hijos de uno crecen y luego quieres hacer favoritismos con los propios y eres puesto en evidencia.
Quién se atrevía siquiera a hablar de amor y compasión o del gozo, si el autodominio brillaba por sus ausencia. Autodominio, que don más poderoso y leal a Jehová. Si uno lo posee, nadie tiene dominio sobre ti, eres tú el que por gracia del espíritu santo dominas tu cuerpo, sabiendo que te inclinarás mayormente, pero que entrenado por Jehová, es posible enderezarlo. Porque nadie tiene que dominar tu vida más que El, esa dirección debe ser divina, nunca humana. Hay tanto de los fritos del espíritu que tenemos que exprimir...un foro no da para tanto. Faltan ojos, respiraciones, movimientos de manos al hablar. Intensidad querido B. El espíritu es muy intenso! Aquí hay palabras si, pero la presencia ofrece tanto!! Es una conversación para tenerla cara a cara.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Hope i haven't missed the point.

That is something to be determined through the hour of test. Our love of Jehovah can only be known by Jehovah himself, not even we can know, because our hearts are treacherous and can and will deceive us. When conditions are favourable, it is easy to declare we know truth and love God.
Most witnesses i know or have met, live quite nice affluent lives, snuggled in their quiet suburban homes, and when you live in those comfortable conditions it is easy to declare your love and devotion to Jehovah. The book of Job is an example of such, he lived a righteous life in favourable conditions, and his faith was tested when Satan took it all away. His life was spared. And he proved his love for Jehovah.
Our lives are about to be turned upside down, everything in this system will be swept away, all that we own will be lost, and the difference this time is our lives may even be snuffed out, this will be the greatest test faced by mankind and will reveal what is truly in our hearts.
Fear will be a galvanising factor, it will expose our heart condition, it will expose us for who we really are. And even then, it will be only by Jehovah's spirit and the faith we have in him to lead us through the dark times that we will be able to stand.

Yes, It is very much part of the heart condition. In contemplating the issue, I was struck by the reasoning of those faced by Christ in the coming times - Mathew 7: “did we not cast out evil spirits in your name …and do many mighty things in your name….” 23 “….and I will say to them, ”I never knew you, depart from me you workers of lawlessness.”

Although the scripture can be applied in various situations, it points to a “form of godly devotion but proves false to its power“. Being “false to its power” surely indicates both an understanding of and application, not to mention a desire to be seen to express love and care for others, and yet, due to its lack of sincerity (for what ever reason - hypocritically meant or sincerely meant), it was not acceptable. Why is the scripture there if it does not point to a higher application that is beholding upon us to determine within ourselves. Thus our basis for motivation. It points to a personal extension in the understanding of love within the spectrum of the word. Jehovah describes himself as a “jealous” God and has wiped whole cities from the face of the earth. Today we are asked to accept all manner of deviance in the name of tolerance and the ”love of difference”. Where does love draw a line then?