Question on war and the great tribulation

Watchman

Watchman

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Could you please comment short on the following question? Is the event in Matthew 24:7 the same as in Matthew 24:21? If I've been listening to you correctly, these are two different events. Is there perhaps any assay on your Web specific to this topic?
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At Mathew 24:7, Jesus said: “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.”

Being the beginning of the pangs of distress means that there are even worse disasters following. According to the chronology of events outlined in the 6th chapter of Revelation, the horsemen of the apocalypse are released one after the other resulting in peace being taken from the earth and a quarter of mankind is killed. Then the 6th seal is opened. “And a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.”

Jesus spoke of the great tribulation coming after nations and kingdoms go to war against each other. There is no doubt that the great tribulation will be a direct result of the world war, resulting in the utter collapse of civilization, symbolized by the massive earthquake and the heavenly luminaries going dark. Jesus also used similar language in connection with the tribulation when he said: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

In saying "immediately after the tribulation" it could be understood that the dark days to follow are a result of the tribulation. We can also understand it to mean that the world will never return to "normal." Dark days will persist until Satan's world is obliterated at the place called Armageddon.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the seals of the scrolls were all opened more than 100 years, including the sixth seal. According to the Grand Climax book, chapter 19 paragraph two, the opening of the sixth seal “must fall within the same time frame as the opening of the other seals. Just when in the Lord’s day does this earthquake occur, and what kind of quake is it?”

So, even though the seal of the scroll was supposedly opened “within the same time frame as the opening of the other seals,” nothing has happened. How reasonable is that? Perhaps the Watchtower should rename its Revelation commentary? Maybe something like Grand Anticlimax?

Actually, what the Watchtower says makes sense and is logical. All the seals are opened during the same time frame. The only logical explanation to address their contradiction is that none of the seals have been opened. Although, now it is becoming more and more likely that the event is near.

Some say the proxy war in Ukraine between the Anglo-American kingdom and Russia is the beginning of World War Three. The Middle East is blowing up too. And the Anglo beast is pushing for war with China. It certainly appears as though the stage is set and we are waiting for the curtain to rise. Even so, up to this point, the members of the nuclear club have not begun shooting at each other directly. Just rumors of war. However, there certainly seems to be a determined effort to change that.

The troublesome aspect of all this is that after the Second World War, the United Nations was set up for the express purpose of preventing another world war. (And by the way, the Watchtower is on record saying that there cannot be another world war.) The primary victors of WWII became the permanent members of the Security Council, being the British, Americans, France, China, and the USSR, now Russia. And recent developments mean that half of the Security Council’s permanent members are at war with the other half. And the Security Council is responsible for maintaining peace and security!?!? How is that going to work?

www.rt.com

Russia places Pacific fleet on ‘high alert’

Russia has placed its Pacific Navy fleet on high alert as part of a surprise combat readiness check
www.rt.com www.rt.com


 
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Watchman said:
That is understood
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It might work like this: Trump gets in 2024 ( if there is a US election? ) The carry on against him by his political opponents seem to be ensuring he gets in. Trump sits down with Xi and Putin, they call for peace, then "Boom". Sudden destruction. That might be a tall story prehaps.
 
What I find most intriguing is the likelihood of prophecy being fulfilled in such a way as to repudiate the Watchtower. It is well known that the WT expects the GT to begin and Babylon to be destroyed. Jehovah's Witnesses have no expectation of anything other than what they read over and over again in the WT. But what will happen if the nations really get after each other say over Ukraine, Taiwan and the Middle East and there is an emergency Security Council meeting and they all cheer that they have avoided nuclear Armageddon, claiming to have achieved the illusive peace and security. And then everything falls apart when the horsemen of the Apocalypse are unleashed, bringing sudden destruction upon those saying peace and security, namely the Anglo-American kingdom. I doubt the WT will admit that 1914 was wrong. And even if they did what credibility would they have at that point? So, Jehovah will bring about a situation where JW's will have to decide if they are going to believe the Bible or the Watchtower.
 
Watchman said:
What I find most intriguing is the likelihood of prophecy being fulfilled in such a way as to repudiate the Watchtower. It is well known that the WT expects the GT to begin and Babylon to be destroyed. Jehovah's Witnesses have no expectation of anything other than what they read over and over again in the WT. But what will happen if the nations really get after each other say over Ukraine, Taiwan and the Middle East and there is an emergency Security Council meeting and they all cheer that they have avoided nuclear Armageddon, claiming to have achieved the illusive peace and security. And then everything falls apart when the horsemen of the Apocalypse are unleashed, bringing sudden destruction upon those saying peace and security, namely the Anglo-American kingdom. I doubt the WT will admit that 1914 was wrong. And even if they did what credibility would they have at that point? So, Jehovah will bring about a situation where JW's will have to decide if they are going to believe the Bible or the Watchtower.
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Another event that will shatter the faith of some is when the GT happens and the Watchtower organization is destroyed but Christendom still exists. I have no doubt that the “awakening“ that many of us had almost 3 years ago with the GB pushing the vaccine will be experienced by those still “asleep”.
 
Watchman said:
What I find most intriguing is the likelihood of prophecy being fulfilled in such a way as to repudiate the Watchtower. It is well known that the WT expects the GT to begin and Babylon to be destroyed. Jehovah's Witnesses have no expectation of anything other than what they read over and over again in the WT. But what will happen if the nations really get after each other say over Ukraine, Taiwan and the Middle East and there is an emergency Security Council meeting and they all cheer that they have avoided nuclear Armageddon, claiming to have achieved the illusive peace and security. And then everything falls apart when the horsemen of the Apocalypse are unleashed, bringing sudden destruction upon those saying peace and security, namely the Anglo-American kingdom. I doubt the WT will admit that 1914 was wrong. And even if they did what credibility would they have at that point? So, Jehovah will bring about a situation where JW's will have to decide if they are going to believe the Bible or the Watchtower.
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The Chinese leader has just announced to the army to get ready for war. I doubt if he is joking. It’s too good an opportunity to pass up when Europe and America have given most of their weapons to Ukraine (Britain does not have much to give either - we don’t even have any planes for our carrier! I think they donated a 10 speed racing bike to Ukraine) and have not the resources to take on China, and if they did, Russia would join in too. I’m not going to second guess the tribulation. As you suggest - if there was ever a time to unite in peace, it is now. Could well be right. That is the time to press the button!
 
SusanB said:
Another event that will shatter the faith of some is when the GT happens and the Watchtower organization is destroyed but Christendom still exists. I have no doubt that the “awakening“ that many of us had almost 3 years ago with the GB pushing the vaccine will be experienced by those still “asleep”.
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Hence the captivity of Babylon the Great.
 
SusanB said:
Another event that will shatter the faith of some is when the GT happens and the Watchtower organization is destroyed but Christendom still exists. I have no doubt that the “awakening“ that many of us had almost 3 years ago with the GB pushing the vaccine will be experienced by those still “asleep”.
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Their awakening will be far much worse...
 
If the great tribulation involves nuclear war, how does it harmonize with Revelation chapter 7 in that the angels hold back the winds for the chosen ones? That's in Chapter 3 of your book.

Why can't it be the angels are holding back the winds, and when they let go the great tribulation starts? If we take verse 3 then it seems the nuclear war that analysts are saying could result in 3-4,000 warheads being sent at once and rendering it inhabitable for humans can't be true, and only a few should go off, which would be a surprise, because logic dictates that if one side sends a missile, the other side will automatically send hundreds in a retaliatory fashion, almost automatically. Which means the only way it stops short of that is a miracle.
 
DavidCJ said:
If the great tribulation involves nuclear war, how does it harmonize with Revelation chapter 7 in that the angels hold back the winds for the chosen ones? That's in Chapter 3 of your book.

Why can't it be the angels are holding back the winds, and when they let go the great tribulation starts? If we take verse 3 then it seems the nuclear war that analysts are saying could result in 3-4,000 warheads being sent at once and rendering it inhabitable for humans can't be true, and only a few should go off, which would be a surprise, because logic dictates that if one side sends a missile, the other side will automatically send hundreds in a retaliatory fashion, almost automatically. Which means the only way it stops short of that is a miracle.
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Surely the language is figurative? I am not equipped to argue the point biblically, prophetically, but the bible simply says that Jehovah steps in to end the devastation because if not, no one would survive. That point does not necessarily imply that He waits until that point is reached though, does it. Jehovah knows how far it will/would/could go already, otherwise the prophesy would not have been writ. It is, therefore, not necessarily content, but intent that will cause Jehovah to intervene at any given time. There is nothing to worry over. We will either live or die by Jehovah’s mercy according to whom we are in terms of faith and heart. It really is not the means of our destruction that we should worry over, but our spiritual values. What are we doing with our lives at this point in time?
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
Surely the language is figurative? I am not equipped to argue the point biblically, prophetically, but the bible simply says that Jehovah steps in to end the devastation because if not, no one would survive. That point does not necessarily imply that He waits until that point is reached though, does it. Jehovah knows how far it will/would/could go already, otherwise the prophesy would not have been writ. It is, therefore, not necessarily content, but intent that will cause Jehovah to intervene at any given time. There is nothing to worry over. We will either live or die by Jehovah’s mercy according to whom we are in terms of faith and heart. It really is not the means of our destruction that we should worry over, but our spiritual values. What are we doing with our lives at this point in time?
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Barnaby, I appreciate your reply but I am specifically asking about the point here:

The holding back of the four winds parallels the cutting short of the tribulation on account of the chosen ones of the 144,000. Evidently the tribulation will be suspended so that the final sealing may be accomplished.
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I took a second look at it starts with "After this" before it talks about the angels holding back the winds.

Also I am on Chapter 3 now(the same chapter I am asking about), and he says in other books it talks about "sixth seal" being about the Great Tribulation, but it must be in the chapters after, cause I don't remember and second it doesn't show in previous chapters.
 
DavidCJ said:
Barnaby, I appreciate your reply but I am specifically asking about the point here:


I took a second look at it starts with "After this" before it talks about the angels holding back the winds.

Also I am on Chapter 3 now(the same chapter I am asking about), and he says in other books it talks about "sixth seal" being about the Great Tribulation, but it must be in the chapters after, cause I don't remember and second it doesn't show in previous chapters.
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I’m not equipped to argue such a deep issue of prophesy. I’m not given insight into it. I confine myself to studying the fruitage of the spirit because if I am equipped to explain anything at all, it would be on outcomes in human reasoning in faith and even then only on limited issues. Therefore I’m afraid that the best I can say about holding back the winds, besides my original attempt, would be to say wait and see. When Christ was on earth, his teaching was practical for those seeking faith and truth as related in the four gospels. The apostles were still thinking he was going to set up his kingdom there and then. That is basically the level where I am at. What I do find remarkable is that when Robert and a few others here go off on a tangent, I can read it and think, yes, this makes sense, - but how and why….that is another story. I do think though, that if the truth were left to the stones to cry out about, it would not be on prophesy so much as what we need to know beforehand so that prophesy has some meaning when it comes, and that we have the spirituality to cope with it when it does. That’s about where I am at. Sorry!
 
DavidCJ said:
Barnaby, I appreciate your reply but I am specifically asking about the point here:


I took a second look at it starts with "After this" before it talks about the angels holding back the winds.

Also I am on Chapter 3 now(the same chapter I am asking about), and he says in other books it talks about "sixth seal" being about the Great Tribulation, but it must be in the chapters after, cause I don't remember and second it doesn't show in previous chapters.
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Does this answer your question? It’s from Chapter 25 of RK’s book and that chapter specifically covers Revelation.

“DO NOT HARM THE EARTH OR SEA OR THE TREES

After the opening of the sixth seal, the vision depicts four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of destruction. And the angels are commanded: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” Next, though, after the sealing takes place, the seventh and final seal is broken and the blowing of the first trumpet initiates the destruction of a substantial portion of the earth, sea and trees. Hence, we read: “And the first one blew his trumpet. And there occurred a hail and fire mingled with blood, and it was hurled to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees was burned up, and all the green vegetation was burned up.” (Revelation 8:7)

Prior to the unsealing of the last seal, the angels had been commanded not to harm the earth, sea or trees until the sealing had been accomplished. But the judgments contained in the seventh seal are to be executed against the earth, sea and trees. What do these symbols represent? A significant clue may be found in the last verse of the eight chapter of Revelation, which reads: “Woe, woe, woe to those dwelling on the earth because of the rest of the trumpet blasts of the three angels who are about to blow their trumpets!”

In view of the fact that the “rest of the trumpet blasts”— specifically the fifth, sixth and seventh trumpets— result in “woe, woe, woe to those dwelling on the earth”— three woes associated with the last three trumpet blasts— the question arises: why do not the first four trumpets similarly result in woe for the peoples of the earth? The answer is: The first four judgments heralded by the angelic trumpeters are not directed against the “peoples dwelling on the earth”— that is to say, those who are not recognized as being in association with God’s earthly organization. The first four trumpets herald God’s judgments upon his organization. That is in harmony with the axiom that the judgment starts with the house of God.”
 
SusanB said:
In view of the fact that the “rest of the trumpet blasts”— specifically the fifth, sixth and seventh trumpets— result in “woe, woe, woe to those dwelling on the earth”— three woes associated with the last three trumpet blasts— the question arises: why do not the first four trumpets similarly result in woe for the peoples of the earth? The answer is: The first four judgments heralded by the angelic trumpeters are not directed against the “peoples dwelling on the earth”— that is to say, those who are not recognized as being in association with God’s earthly organization. The first four trumpets herald God’s judgments upon his organization. That is in harmony with the axiom that the judgment starts with the house of God.”
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Hmm, I guess I have to wait until I get there.

Chapter 3 made a LOT of sense with the parables. Can't believe I haven't noticed it until now. The more you know.
 
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