The Greatest Crime in Human History.

kirmmy

Well-known member
President Putin emphasised yesterday: If long range weaponry is deployed by an outside source we shall target that source directly.
Cry havok! And let slip the dogs of war!!!

ETA: It may seem I'm glorifying war but I'm not. At this point, I'd just like them to get down to it. All their bloviating is getting on my nerves. The quicker they get on with it, the quicker God's salvation by his Son comes.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
It is Jehovah’s will to do away with all sexual abuse but not at this time in history.
Indeed, because Satan still rules this system.
Thus it is not true to say that Jehovah has and done “nothing”.
I was sure someone was going to post this, but it wasn't. I have been very busy this week, but now I'll go ahead and post what we all know, the obvious but also some insight! Because that's what I do...I'm not always right, but i may you think. (Maybe I make some think how they can prove I'm wrong, Barnaby you already failed, so don't try again, it's embarrassing. ;) )


Jehovah gave his only begotten Son. To truly understand this, I think most people have never thought about the things that makes this so remarkable. Rather than just kill the rebels, Jehovah allowed Satan's idea to "play out" with all it's bad consequences. It's crucial to point out, none of us would exist if Jehovah had killed Adam and Eve, and Satan. There would have been a whole different "human race" if God had created "new" humans.

To the point of Jehovah restraining himself, God allowed his very own son to be killed as if he was a criminal, when he was the only innocent human being to ever exist. So actually Jehovah knows all to well what it feels like to have an innocent child abused. And also, we are all God's children.

But to give some perspective. Jehovah had the power to stop any and all of this, including and especially what his very own and "only begotten" son suffered for the sake of mankind. Think of Jehovah's power, and the power he has to restrain himself! Again, truly remarkable.

Also, it is important that we understand the full context of what Jesus sacrifice meant. Jesus adopted the son's of Adam, by sacrificing his seed, his perfect human seed, by deciding to give his perfect life and not have children. Perfection is dominant, so Jesus could have had perfect children even with an imperfect wife. Clearly that was not Jehovah's will, but as I said, the context to understand fully what Jesus actually sacrificed, really needs our full attention to the details.

Also, it is important we all understand, Jehovah's will was not going to be stopped, and even God was willing to make sacrifices.

To be sure, this wicked system sucks! I have "cursed God" in my heart sometimes when I have despaired. Unfortunately, the WT did not prepare me at all, for what this life was actually going to dish out. That particularly has made life hard. Knowing that "I have the truth", yet the end didn't happen all those decades ago, that we were promised would take place. And I am not going to lie and say, even now I do not some times I get angry at God. But that is part of imperfection, and I am convinced Jehovah understands, he's knows "we are dust."

But to reiterate, Jehovah has given everything. Not just life, he gave us the purchase price to get our life back our father Adam lost, by giving his only begotten, perfect and innocent son, to suffer a torturous death, as a criminal, and to branded "blasphemer", by "God's people" all the while having the supreme power to stop it at any time, but letting it happen none the less.

Would any of us, let our son or daughter suffer when we had the power to stop it, the way Jesus suffered? NO! That restraint is something I cannot comprehend. I get why Jehovah restrained himself, but I will not lie to myself and say I could have done that if I was God!

So, it is not an accurate representation of Jehovah to say he did not hear the prayers of children who suffer, if we know anything about God, the Bible, and what is going on, between Jehovah and the "god" of this world!

Jehovah has promised "to make all things right."


And Barnaby, I love you!!!!! But you're still wrong! About what? At the moment, I don't know but I'm here to let you know! Lurking...when you least expect it.😜
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Indeed, because Satan still rules this system.

I was sure someone was going to post this, but it wasn't. I have been very busy this week, but now I'll go ahead and post what we all know, the obvious but also some insight! Because that's what I do...I'm not always right, but i may you think. (Maybe I make some think how they can prove I'm wrong, Barnaby you already failed, so don't try again, it's embarrassing. ;) )


Jehovah gave his only begotten Son. To truly understand this, I think most people have never thought about the things that makes this so remarkable. Rather than just kill the rebels, Jehovah allowed Satan's idea to "play out" with all it's bad consequences. It's crucial to point out, none of us would exist if Jehovah had killed Adam and Eve, and Satan. There would have been a whole different "human race" if God had created "new" humans.

To the point of Jehovah restraining himself, God allowed his very own son to be killed as if he was a criminal, when he was the only innocent human being to ever exist. So actually Jehovah knows all to well what it feels like to have an innocent child abused. And also, we are all God's children.

But to give some perspective. Jehovah had the power to stop any and all of this, including and especially what his very own and "only begotten" son suffered for the sake of mankind. Think of Jehovah's power, and the power he has to restrain himself! Again, truly remarkable.

Also, it is important that we understand the full context of what Jesus sacrifice meant. Jesus adopted the son's of Adam, by sacrificing his seed, his perfect human seed, by deciding to give his perfect life and not have children. Perfection is dominant, so Jesus could have had perfect children even with an imperfect wife. Clearly that was not Jehovah's will, but as I said, the context to understand fully what Jesus actually sacrificed, really needs our full attention to the details.

Also, it is important we all understand, Jehovah's will was not going to be stopped, and even God was willing to make sacrifices.

To be sure, this wicked system sucks! I have "cursed God" in my heart sometimes when I have despaired. Unfortunately, the WT did not prepare me at all, for what this life was actually going to dish out. That particularly has made life hard. Knowing that "I have the truth", yet the end didn't happen all those decades ago, that we were promised would take place. And I am not going to lie and say, even now I do not some times I get angry at God. But that is part of imperfection, and I am convinced Jehovah understands, he's knows "we are dust."

But to reiterate, Jehovah has given everything. Not just life, he gave us the purchase price to get our life back our father Adam lost, by giving his only begotten, perfect and innocent son, to suffer a torturous death, as a criminal, and to branded "blasphemer", by "God's people" all the while having the supreme power to stop it at any time, but letting it happen none the less.

Would any of us, let our son or daughter suffer when we had the power to stop it, the way Jesus suffered? NO! That restraint is something I cannot comprehend. I get why Jehovah restrained himself, but I will not lie to myself and say I could have done that if I was God!

So, it is not an accurate representation of Jehovah to say he did not hear the prayers of children who suffer, if we know anything about God, the Bible, and what is going on, between Jehovah and the "god" of this world!

Jehovah has promised "to make all things right."


And Barnaby, I love you!!!!! But you're still wrong! About what? At the moment, I don't know but I'm here to let you know! Lurking...when you least expect it.😜
Jesus would not have been able to reproduce a perfect human being via an imperfect woman. The human gamet is only complete when united with the female gamet. Though Jesus was perfect, the unison of both male and female gamet is required for independent life to exist. Therefore the perfection in physical terms would be contaminated at that point of Union. However, the imperfection of man is not due primarily to physical issues, but spiritual issues. Jehovah of course owns the body. It was His creation as was the ethereal issues of life, ergo, the expression of the mind, and it was this that caused the fall of man, in that man decided, deliberately chose, to depart from Jehovah’s determination of what constitutes perfection and to take this upon himself. Thus an act - mental decision to reject Jehovah’s right of determination.

Jesus had agreed to uphold that determination, or “standard” of perfection and therefore, to deviate from that standard would have made Jesus imperfect. After all, it was not the eating of fruit that was the cause of the fall of man, but the decision to reject Jehovah’s purpose. And Jehovah‘s purpose for Jesus was to sacrifice that which Adam rejected. When perfection diverges from its standard as stated by Jehovah, then it ceases to be perfect. Thus Jesus could not give perfect life to an heir, a point that was made so through the virgin birth, exactly as demonstrated at the creation of Adam. I hope therefore, Nomex, that you have some humble pie in your fridge, because clearly now is your time to feast on it.…all of it…and then some. 👍
 

Patricia

Well-known member
Jesus would not have been able to reproduce a perfect human being via an imperfect woman. The human gamet is only complete when united with the female gamet. Though Jesus was perfect, the unison of both male and female gamet is required for independent life to exist. Therefore the perfection in physical terms would be contaminated at that point of Union. However, the imperfection of man is not due primarily to physical issues, but spiritual issues. Jehovah of course owns the body. It was His creation as was the ethereal issues of life, ergo, the expression of the mind, and it was this that caused the fall of man, in that man decided, deliberately chose, to depart from Jehovah’s determination of what constitutes perfection and to take this upon himself. Thus an act - mental decision to reject Jehovah’s right of determination.

Jesus had agreed to uphold that determination, or “standard” of perfection and therefore, to deviate from that standard would have made Jesus imperfect. After all, it was not the eating of fruit that was the cause of the fall of man, but the decision to reject Jehovah’s purpose. And Jehovah‘s purpose for Jesus was to sacrifice that which Adam rejected. When perfection diverges from its standard as stated by Jehovah, then it ceases to be perfect. Thus Jesus could not give perfect life to an heir, a point that was made so through the virgin birth, exactly as demonstrated at the creation of Adam. I hope therefore, Nomex, that you have some humble pie in your fridge, because clearly now is your time to feast on it.…all of it…and then some. 👍
Agree with you BTD. And What would the tree of life have been for otherwise? Adam and Eve were not forbidden to eat from it. Until they sinned, then the tree had to be guarded so that they couldn't. So what I'm getting at is, if Jesus was the same, physically, as Adam, he still would have needed something else, fruit from the tree, in order to keep living and even if he could produce perfect offspring, they would need that fruit as well, not too mention the fact that they would have to remain perfectly faithful. IMO
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Agree with you BTD. And What would the tree of life have been for otherwise? Adam and Eve were not forbidden to eat from it. Until they sinned, then the tree had to be guarded so that they couldn't. So what I'm getting at is, if Jesus was the same, physically, as Adam, he still would have needed something else, fruit from the tree, in order to keep living and even if he could produce perfect offspring, they would need that fruit as well, not too mention the fact that they would have to remain perfectly faithful. IMO
True! By the time Armageddon came round for the sinners, the world would have been bulging with fruit trees!
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Jesus would not have been able to reproduce a perfect human being via an imperfect woman.
This is one time where I have to agree with the WT, and once again prove you wrong Dog! Don't make me look up (because I can't remember where they are and have to look them up), all the scriptures that talk about Jesus "seed" that the new kindergarten New World Translation version now renders "offspring", that Jesus sacrificed! The source of life is in the "seed".

But in all seriousness,
And Jehovah‘s purpose for Jesus was to sacrifice that which Adam rejected.
Part of what Adam "rejected" or lost was his perfect offspring. That is absolutely crucial to understand, and something I do completely agree with WT on. Jesus adopted Adam's children in part by sacrificing his own "seed", by not "starting a family." It's not relevent that that was not God's purpose, it is only relevant that that was part of what Jesus gave up as a perfect human man! It was built in, as part of what Jesus was willing to do and what Jehovah was asking Jesus to do, or rather what Jesus volunteered for.

Oh and...thanks for proving my point...which the Insight book points out,
a point that was made so through the virgin birth

Mary the mother of Jesus, was able to give birth to a perfect man, and all she needed was the perfect seed from God, that God implanted in the imperfect woman Mary! A human seed BTW!!!! The fact she was imperfect yet gave birth to a perfect man proves I am right. Jesus claim to the thrown of David was actually through his mothers line, since Joseph was not his father! All though they both had that heritage. Never the less an imperfect woman gave birth to a perfect man, Jesus. However, half of Jesus genetic code was from an imperfect woman, unless you think God also implanted a perfect egg into Mary!!! In which case Jesus has no claim to the thrown through the line of David!

BTW, Jesus being the "perfect image of God" could have done the exact same thing God had done when he put Jesus seed into Mary, and had perfect children.

I'll send that "Humble Pie" your way my friend. Nomex 2-Barnaby 0....:giggle:
 

Nomex

Well-known member
And What would the tree of life have been for otherwise?
Oh and I meant to mention...who knows what that really was. Was it literal? Because "eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad" was not literally eating and gaining knowledge of good and bad, but rather a metaphor for man rejecting God's direction by opting for his own choices without God! Not exactly gaining "knowledge of good and bad." `
 

BagdadBill

Well-known member
The Bible calls Jesus the "second Adam", so he was the same as "Adam" whatever that means exactly, there is some debate for that. However the fact remains, the only way Jesus could give his life in exchange for Adams offspring was by sacrificing his perfect seed!
Perfect and unblemished. Eye for an eye. Equal value upon the scales. The modern world is fond of using the word equity when they don't really mean equal. The solving of any equation in math is based on balance or equal value. Yes? Really though, if you want an actual reckoning of value, we got the better end of the deal because Jesus was obviously far more than just a perfect man when transferred to Earth. I can't even guess what he knew or remembered as a child but who he was, with all the knowledge of the Creator made him a far superior sacrifice. I hope I haven't overstepped my bounds in saying this. Jesus had a love for our species which is obvious through God's word. He had a hand in things and I never thought about it much but I can only imagine how it must have felt to him standing next to Jehovah, as Adam made his choice. We're human and we do stupid stuff sometimes.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Really though, if you want an actual reckoning of value, we got the better end of the deal because Jesus was obviously far more than just a perfect man when transferred to Earth. I can't even guess what he knew or remembered as a child but who he was, with all the knowledge of the Creator made him a far superior sacrifice. I hope I haven't overstepped my bounds in saying this. Jesus had a love for our species which is obvious through God's word.
Beautifully stated, and indeed...Jesus seemed to far exceed that scale balance...but I look at it another way, Jesus, whom the Bible says "all other things were created by means of him", his human mind was able to retain, contain, articulate, express that incredible mind of the Son of God! That is our perfect human potential the mind of Jesus!!! It's incredible!
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
True! By the time Armageddon came round for the sinners, the world would have been bulging with fruit trees!
This is one time where I have to agree with the WT, and once again prove you wrong Dog! Don't make me look up (because I can't remember where they are and have to look them up), all the scriptures that talk about Jesus "seed" that the new kindergarten New World Translation version now renders "offspring", that Jesus sacrificed! The source of life is in the "seed".

But in all seriousness,

Part of what Adam "rejected" or lost was his perfect offspring. That is absolutely crucial to understand, and something I do completely agree with WT on. Jesus adopted Adam's children in part by sacrificing his own "seed", by not "starting a family." It's not relevent that that was not God's purpose, it is only relevant that that was part of what Jesus gave up as a perfect human man! It was built in, as part of what Jesus was willing to do and what Jehovah was asking Jesus to do, or rather what Jesus volunteered for.

Oh and...thanks for proving my point...which the Insight book points out,


Mary the mother of Jesus, was able to give birth to a perfect man, and all she needed was the perfect seed from God, that God implanted in the imperfect woman Mary! A human seed BTW!!!! The fact she was imperfect yet gave birth to a perfect man proves I am right. Jesus claim to the thrown of David was actually through his mothers line, since Joseph was not his father! All though they both had that heritage. Never the less an imperfect woman gave birth to a perfect man, Jesus. However, half of Jesus genetic code was from an imperfect woman, unless you think God also implanted a perfect egg into Mary!!! In which case Jesus has no claim to the thrown through the line of David!

BTW, Jesus being the "perfect image of God" could have done the exact same thing God had done when he put Jesus seed into Mary, and had perfect children.

I'll send that "Humble Pie" your way my friend. Nomex 2-Barnaby 0....:giggle:
Yes, the source of life is in the male gamet. That is not the problem. I assumed that you agreed that point. After all, that is how a lineage has meaning. We procreate and that is why sin spread to all men and women. The problem in respect of Christ though is that the recipient gamet would not be perfect, and the gamet from the female is critical to the formation of the body that the life will utilise. You cannot mix perfection with imperfection and as the body of Christ would be the expression of perfection, the vehicle of life, it cannot be utilised as such in procreation with imperfection. Neither can it stem from it - the principle is even the same in procreation post perfection. This is proven because the offspring of Adam were imperfect. What changed then? It was spiritual, not physical. That is the critical question.

We view the norm that we live as “perfect” because most bodies fulfil the expectation of society, but this is not the case. From this we see that the entity of life is constant, even if the expression of it is finite in some respects.
The act of disobedience resulted in imperfection, but the life that is our source of ‘what happens’, what we experience, is not affected, other than in its ability to function and express itself to the standard of perfection that is Jehovah. Life is life. The body is it’s vehicle. The longevity of the body is well documented in the scriptures, thus the fact that the body is affected by the terms of reference that is life. The body being the means of expression of life fails and ceases in that function. The “soul” that Jesus committed to Jehovahs keeping “Father I commend to you my spirit”, ‘survives’ in a form known only to the Creator, be that in a substance of energy or memory. Life insofar as mankind experiences it, is an energy that utilises flesh to express itself. Ask yourself how the brain, flesh, can sense the past present and future? Where will you find that in the cells of the brain. Can you hold it in your hand? How can flesh love and express and experience ethereal concepts? Also, that was what Mary carried. How is it possible that Jehovah made a perfect vehicle for His son to inherit, but used the gamets of the female to do so? That would mean that Jesus would die anyway, and not by sacrifice of perfection though such would be necessary for procreation to take place. That is itself a paradox is it not? That was the ransom - perfection for perfection. It is the imperfection of the spirit in man that caused death and a perfect spirit cannot be supported in a less that perfect body for the sake of repaying what was lost. Life is an essence, an energy, spirit. It in itself, is not dependant on a body and can be extant in a spirit form. Why then would Jehovah require a woman? For the reason that Jesus was born of a woman through the lineage promised to Abram. That does not entail anything other than to carry that life and to give birth. That was necessary for us to recognise the issue of the fall of mankind. How could that be accomplished if Jehovah were to recreate a latter-day Adam as He did at Genesis? Life also exists in an asexual body and so your argument is indefensible in respect of the need for union. The fact that that Jesus was born of Mary did not necessitate the use of the human gamet. It was the life, not the body that was transferred. Mary was the vessel that carried it. I am surprised that you rely on watchtower for anything, let alone genetics. You would do better to rely upon the bible and the biology of Jehovah. I will see your Humble Pie, and raise you two eggs on your face! 👍
 

Patricia

Well-known member
Oh and I meant to mention...who knows what that really was. Was it literal? Because "eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad" was not literally eating and gaining knowledge of good and bad, but rather a metaphor for man rejecting God's direction by opting for his own choices without God! Not exactly gaining "knowledge of good and bad." `
Ok so Eve was deceived into doing what exactly?
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Also, that was what Mary carried.
So, what is it Marry carried? The fact remains Mary was Jesus mother, Jehovah did impregnate an imperfect egg, so Jesus mother was imperfect. In that short sentence your argument is destroyed!

Regardless we can agree to disagree. However, plenty of good knowledge has come from WT, and all that is good is in fact based on the Bible, like the fact the Bible says Mary was Jesus mother...

BTW, just cause you think you didn't loose doesn't mean you didn't loose! 😵
😜
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
So, what is it Marry carried? The fact remains Mary was Jesus mother, Jehovah did impregnate an imperfect egg, so Jesus mother was imperfect. In that short sentence your argument is destroyed!

Regardless we can agree to disagree. However, plenty of good knowledge has come from WT, and all that is good is in fact based on the Bible, like the fact the Bible says Mary was Jesus mother...

BTW, just cause you think you didn't loose doesn't mean you didn't loose! 😵
😜
Have you watched or read the story of Ron Wyatt finding Jesus blood on the ark of the covenant under golgotha and having it analyzed by a lab. The blood was still alive and had only one paternal chromosome just the y gender one. It appears Jesus was as close as a male child could be to a clone of Mary yet the one male chromosome from Jehovah was enough to render the child perfect. There's a difference in the wave optics of chromosomes that make women much less susceptible to genetic defects, degradation and the expression of defective genes than men as you brought out it's paternity that determines the child's state of perfect vs imperfect most of humanities deviation from biological perfection over the millenia has been deterioration on the male ancestors.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
So, what is it Marry carried? The fact remains Mary was Jesus mother, Jehovah did impregnate an imperfect egg, so Jesus mother was imperfect. In that short sentence your argument is destroyed!

Regardless we can agree to disagree. However, plenty of good knowledge has come from WT, and all that is good is in fact based on the Bible, like the fact the Bible says Mary was Jesus mother...

BTW, just cause you think you didn't loose doesn't mean you didn't loose! 😵
😜
Mary was ‘impregnated’ with life, it’s true. That is not in dispute. The human being though is imperfect and thus it cannot be possible to use imperfect substance to create a perfect being. That was the reason for Christ’s birth was it not - to replace, ransom what was lost. Christ was perfect, as was Adam. You cannot make perfect from imperfection. Mary was a surrogate and clearly her body supplied the nutrition and environment, but there is room to assume that was all. As I noted, asexual regeneration is part nature and though it is not so in far more complex and higher forms of life, it is nonetheless a physical fact. Yes, Mary was Jesus’ mother, except in terms of being related. Jesus, the scripture says , “subjected himself” to his parents because that was and remains (to some extent at least today) the rule of nature. If the act of disobedience is enough to render the body imperfect, how then, can the body of a subsequent human be used in producing the perfection required for the ransom? What part of Mary‘s genome is perfect and why did Jehovah need a human being to partner the life of a material body of His only begotten son, when no such need was extant at the time of his creation, or indeed, when man was created through Christ without need for a female and before a female was ever constructed? I would value tremendously, losing the arguement to such a worthy guy as you Nomex, it would and always is, be an honourable defeat at your hands, rather like the Japanese suicide ritual, but you are going to have to come up with a water-tight scripture or fact before I throw myself on my sword. 👍
 

Patricia

Well-known member
She was decieved into thinking she would be "like God knowing good and bad." I'm not saying she didn't eat from the tree, what I am saying is it was the act of disobedience that resulted in the consequence of her action and not the tree imparting something.
Ok I see what your saying now. You had lost me at "metaphor." I just kinda assumed everyone understood that it was the act of disobedience. But what do you suppose caused them to suddenly realize they were naked? Or was Adam just trying to make some excuse for hiding from Jehovah? As if he could. Didn't Adam know that God knows all, sees all? But back to the tree of life---if it wasn't literal, why the cherubs and flaming blade of a sword to guard the way to it?
I have a tendency to take the words of scripture for what they say unless I see obvious symbolism.
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
She was decieved into thinking she would be "like God knowing good and bad." I'm not saying she didn't eat from the tree, what I am saying is it was the act of disobedience that resulted in the consequence of her action and not the tree imparting something.
Would she have been prohibited from the tree forever? It doesn't seem likely or why would God put it within reach. A simple test but maybe much more. It could have been a situation that WHEN Adam and Eve reached the appropriate maturity, Jehovah would have deemed them ready to partake of the tree. Once their minds were mature and completely aligned with their father they may have been granted access as they could handle the responsibility involved. When you consider the incredible things God has done for mankind it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility. At Adam's time who could have imagined the "new creation" God was bringing forward. And gifting certain sinful humans with immortality and kingship?! That's an incredible and surprising development by our Creator. It's hard to imagine sometimes the things God has done for his creation and it's impossible to know of the great things he has planned for the future for those that love him.

Or maybe I've fallen into a mental fugue again. :) I hate when that happens...
 
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