What is Love?

[SusanB]

Rather than divert the discussion here, about Love, to an off topic of a long drawn out dispute about words, i.e. slave and/or servant, my point has been made that the Bible refers to God's faithful ones as his servants, and it is Scripturally correct to refer to them as Jehovah's servants. It is not presumptuous to do so, as was earlier inferred in this thread as my comment referring to God's loyal ones as his servants was zeroed in on and challenged. I made the mistake of taking the bait.
Jehovah's Servant

I agree that I too consider myself a servant of Jehovah and I don’t feel that is presumptuous at all. I am also a slave and I too see those as interchangeable terms although if someone wants to get specific, I’m sure we could point out a difference or two. I do not understand completely how exactly these terms were used in ancient times, but from what I‘ve read a slave from ancient times was quite different than what we consider to be a slave today. But I have not studied Hebrew or Greek nor do I know what exact words were used. But I’m just considering the word meanings in a general sense.

 

[SusanB]

Very good point about ancient and modern applications of the word slave. Well, in the Israelite society, one could, if they became indebted, sell themselves for a period of time as a "slave" in order to pay off their debt. So, really, the Biblical "slave" received his payment in the form of having his dept paid off by his "slavery". At least that is my understanding. Perhaps another thread on this topic of slave vs.servant should be started.

The Biblical Israelite slave meaning is more akin to the modern day term of an indentured servant.

Indentured servitude refers to a contract between two individuals, in which one person worked not for money but to repay an indenture, or loan, within a set time period. ... However, indentured servants could be sold, loaned, or inherited, at least during the duration of their contract terms.

I had a Sister relate a humorous experience regarding the FDS. When this Sister was first introduced to Jehovah’s Witnesses she attended her first meeting with her husband and as I recall it was before she even started studying the bible. She is African-American and I believe it was in the 1970’s when she attended her first meeting. Upon hearing the term “Faith and Discreet Slave”, she was shocked and said to her husband, “they have slaves!” They nearly ran out of the Kingdom Hall! We laughed about it when she related it to me because obviously she stuck around long enough to get a better explanation, but her initial thought was that JW’s were still practicing slavery, like before the civil war. It’s so funny how easy it is to get wrong impressions.

 

[The God Pill]

Interesting commentary. Do you have any scriptural references for the great crowd being considered slaves until after the final test? Re: your comment "It's also important to note that for the great crowd we are slaves of god and christ until after the final test". Is this a Biblical teaching or a Watchtower teaching?

It's logic/opinion though anyone can assess however much it overlaps with wt doctrine however much they like essentially been my opinion since I was a fourth grader around a year after first devouring that Bible cover to cover. Mankind were always meant to have a measure of authority children albeit lower than angels Adam was to have dominion over the planet of course as patriarch of our species as we know he tragically sinned. Jesus as the promised seed, the son of David, heir to the glory of God the father takes on that role not only for becoming human and what he did during his earthly life but because he was the only angelic prince over mankind that never became corrupt the others will be conquered by him soon.

We can only be restored to the full status Adam squandered by choosing the right master and disowning ourselves hence slaves of god and the Lord Jesus Christ we are slaves to whom we obey do we obey him or sin? Once all things have been restored by Jesus humans will have reconciliation with God and the kind of daily two way conversation Adam had in the breezy part of the day. We will be children of God though of a lower position than the annointed and the faithful angels. Michael Heiser's book the unseen realm goes over a lot the near eastern context of the bible and the ancient cultures of the regions views of divine and royal households and councils essentially the line between a monarchs servants, deputy rulers and family were pretty blurred with most of a kings officials and inner circle being relatives a sharing of authority with extended family not only his nearest kin. As much as the scope varies Jehovah always wanted to share a measure of authority with his faithful intelligent creatures the annointed are one of the more profound examples as joint heirs of Christ upon attaining immortality they are to have a capacity for independence almost all things lack but yet choose to remain in subjection loving loyal children. Once death is no more and all creation is free of sin the status of slaves has fun it's course. Humankind is fully reintegrated into Jehovah's family a little below the angels.

Servant vs slave has little role in my comments there is a clear difference and differentiation between the terms and obviously all of us would rather the various benefits of servant and insofar as we are subordinates entrusted with a measure of oversight or responsibility of any of our masters property an elder, a parent, people going in the ministry in that capacity in a sense we are operating as servants of god the main difference is the contract element of a slave vs the more ongoingly consensual nature of a servants employment. And as as the nature of our slavery via baptism is dedication it's not a matter of a length of time or terms of a contact only the master can free us by choice. I don't see any point in anyone criticizing anyone for identifying themselves by any position after all a thousand years is like a day to Jehovah

I can't find where inserting or focusing on servant status has much role here outside the context where it's more blended with family that aren't consorts or immediate heirs. What I can say is whatever our present objective external status inwardly we can determine the manner in which we submit to Jehovah and Jesus whether godly fear, common sense self interest or loving devotion. Even one of Jehovah's angel the apostle John encountered was humble enough to refer to himself in the lowest term

8 Well, I John was the one hearing and seeing these things. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel that had been showing me these things.
9 But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who are prophets and of those who are observing the words of this scroll. Worship God.”

And that's what matters that every knee bends to his chosen king Jehovah doesn't need anything from anyone he lacks nothing and is not dependant outside the simple benefits of his guidance and direction of his creation and projects and of optimally harnessing the potential of the universe we inhabit Cain and Abel is the perfect and truest example of why submission is so important Jehovah God certainly would prefer Cain not kill Abel out of love for Jehovah and Abel than out of self interest in the blessing Jehovah offered and our father would certainly have preferred Cain not kill Abel because he valued the blessing Jehovah offered than because of fear of punishment but ultimately Cain did slay his brother. As long as all creation has at least adequate godly fear then they will not act in wicked ways against Jehovah's other intelligent creatures that's what the order is most about of course love is the ideal and in time it will be the primary motive of all. The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom.

Deuteronomy 25
17 “There should be a remembering of what Amʹa·lek did to you in the way when YOU were coming out of Egypt,
18 how he met you in the way and proceeded to strike in the rear of you all those straggling after you, while you were exhausted and weary; and he did not fear God. 19 And it must occur that when Jehovah your God has given you rest from all your enemies round about in the land that Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance to take possession of it, you should wipe out the mention of Amʹa·lek from under the heavens. You must not forget.

The amalekites were descendants of Esau they knew Jehovah yet they betrayed him and acted treacherously towards his people because they neither loved him or the descendants of jacob nor saw it in their interest to act brotherly towards them and they did not fear God.

There's a reason why for over ninety percent of human history monarchy was the default structure of governance this is because the core value of the hierarchy based third of political variation is stability, minimal internal conflict, peace at least within essentially of course humans fail dramatically at everything but Jehovah and Jesus are not subject to human flaws. Of course it's pure speculation but because of just how leisurely the pace of life will be when we live forever and how long the creative epochs will be I imagine while highly ordered the kingdom post millennium will feel much more like an enormous efficient multi species family than any of man's political constructs.

 

[kirmmy]

I don’t know if you have the news today, but China has just joined Russia in support and set itself against NATO. I am just popping out now to get myself one of those cycling hard hats just in case something nuclear falls out. Keep yourself on line, I will let you know if and when something passes over head. We are used to keeping an eye out here for seagulls that like to deliver personally, so we are always looking up.

Grave stuff.

But remember, in case of Nukes, just "duck and cover." You'll be fine.
Just like Covid. "Just 14 days to flatten the curve!"
And as always: "We're all in this together!"

Hope your sarcasm meter is in good repair.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Grave stuff.

But remember, in case of Nukes, just "duck and cover." You'll be fine.
Just like Covid. "Just 14 days to flatten the curve!"
And as always: "We're all in this together!"

Hope your sarcasm meter is in good repair.

“Grave stuff”! Bit of a pun-artist are we? Very good I must admit. Yes, my sarcasm meter is fully charged, sharpened and honed but all the politicians are in hiding here!

 

[kirmmy]

It's not sarcasim at all, I really do believe the Devil has been behind his antics. Satan most certainly has an influence over human activity. You'd have to know the history, which it's unlikely you do.

You may have misunderstood me...

The sarcasm was more in line with the dumb platitudes the world uses.

Like Duck and cover will help you avoid being turned to ash in a nuke exchange.

Like 14 days to flatten the curve has become almost 700

Like "We're all in this together" when many lost their jobs and can't find another one while Bezos, Gates, etc, etc, etc added 25-50% to their billions.

 

[kirmmy]

No problem my friend. That's why the internet isn't really good for conversations. If we had this discussion together like a group, facial expressions, tone and inflection of speech and body language would make us more understandable to one another. That's the exact reason the lockdowns and face masking/social distancing is so very bad. We've got a generation of little children that our going to have issues because of this madness. They're saying small children are having developmental issues because they can't see the faces of their teachers and fellow students. Someone is going to pay for that and pay good. May Jehovah repay to the evil ones for what they've done to the children.

 

[steve]

Who doesn't love Jane Austin and Charles Dickens, among my very favorite authors. There are some TV shows featuring some English chaps that I enjoy very much 15 Minute Cooking with Jaime, is one, he's actually quite likable, even cute.

As to the class distinctions in English society, they are very well known, in fact, the English are the most well known of all the peoples of this planet to have class distinctions in their society. If it was so severe as to be considered "hate speech" to mention this, it wouldn't be allowed to be discussed on line, which it is. Which shows that its obviously something that many have noted about the society. A comment regarding this from Quara states: "All snobs in their own ways. All think they know best and that anybody with different ideas is a waste of space. We express our snobbiness through passive aggressive group bullying, nosiness, grandiose sentiments and making people feel unwelcome"

And by the way, the highly inflamatory, insulting and untrue assumptions and comments that you have made about my character are far, far worse than my saying you come across as snobbish. Its the difference between a mild observation and a sledge hammer, mentioned in one of your comments, which you apparently employ at will in online verbal interactions, particularly with me.

John Michael Cule of the UK makes this comment about this view his own English people :

"Well, there are probably reasons for this.
Firstly, we are snobs. We are the most class conscious nation on Earth. The only thing that makes it tolerable is the fact that all classes can find a reason to be cheerfully contemptuous of all the other classes. It’s quite possible to ‘look down’ on someone who formally speaking is above you in the pecking order and we do it all the time. Why else do you think that upper-class officers in the forces are called ‘Ruperts’ by the Other Ranks?"

Why are most English people so snobby?
Jano Kwenge, 111 Call Handler at National Health Service (2017-present)
Answered 3 years ago · Author has 66 answers and 123.6K answer views

Brits are snobby. Upper class, middle class, working class. All snobs in their own ways. All think they know best and that anybody with different ideas is a waste of space. We express our snobbiness through passive aggressive group bullying, nosiness, grandiose sentiments and making people feel unwelcome.

In Britain a contributing factor to this is division of labour. Brits draw their existential drive from the work they do. The toffs think the country would fall apart without them. The working class feel they are the only people who do any real work. And the middle class squabble endlessly amongst themselves about who does the most hours, who is the most deserving etc.
The outcome is a spiralling vortex of resentment with the consequence that we become a country of whining, bitching, entitled, self-congratulating snobs.
I think this atmosphere comes also from millenia of village life under feudal rule, which was only recently interrupted by industrialisation. Unfortunately Britain has spread it's culture far across the world. And while we have undoubtedly shared some good things and had good things shared with us, the brits have also stamped out many much more venerable cultures because of this snobby attitude.

Are you being satirical with this comment in regards to us British people or is it meant as a direct insult ?

Distinctions are in every society that exist, and can be easily observed with some research, however it is us British people who stand out because we do it so much better than the rest of you!!

 

[steve]

No, it's not to insult the British. It's just an observation of a fact of British society that is very well known, even by the Brits themselves. It's even the subject of many novels, movies, comedy's, and jokes and their general distain for Americans is also well known. Not that all are that way, I believe many recognize this very strong trait in their own society, and manage to overcome it or reject it to the degree they can. We are all to some degree affected and shaped by our environment. It's inescapable. Titus 1:12 spoke of the Cretans, "A certain one of them, their own prophet, said: "Cretans are alway liars, injurious wild beasts, unemployed gluttons." If traits of a society are well recognized even by the members of that society, how can it be hate speech to agree with what a society acknowledges and recognizes and says even about itself?

We love Americans !! you have it so wrong.

 

[steve]

You are the best at it. I once dated a man who spoke the Queen's English and have to say it is a pleasure to hear properly spoken English, as opposed to some less elegant speech. This is especially the case these days, when the English language is so highly abused and has devolved among many. But the same has happened with Spanish. I excelled in English in school, so respect it's proper use.

Jokes by Brits about Americans:

"I'm American, and I'm sick of people saying America is "the stupidest country in the world."
Personally, I think Europe is the stupidest country in the world."

"Donald Rumsfeld briefed President Bush. He told him that three Brazilian soldiers were killed in Iraq.
To everyone's amazement, all of the colour ran from Bush's face.
Then he collapsed onto his desk, head in hands, visibly shaken, almost whimpering. Finally, he composed himself and asked Rumsfeld, "Just exactly how many is a brazillion?""

Brit: I don't understand why you Americans are so arrogant, you're all dumb as poles. I doubt one person in all of your 51 states has any intelligence.
American: There's only 50 states you idiot!
Brit: What about Pearl Harbour?
American: HAHAHAH Pearl Harbour's not a state.
Brit: Well it was a state when the Japanese had finished with it.
*bar fight ensues*

"Two Rednecks are sittin' in a boat on the lake fishing and suckin' down beers when all of a sudden Woody says, "I think I'm goin' to divorce my wife - she hasn't spoken to me in over six months."
Bubba slowly sips his beer and says, "You better think it over - women like that are hard to find.""

Joke about Brits:
At dawn the telephone rings. "Hello, Señor Humphrey? This is Ernesto, the caretaker at your country house."
"Ah yes, Ernesto. What can I do for you? Is there a problem?"
"Um, I am just calling to advise you, sir, that your parrot died."
"My parrot? Dead? The one that won the international competition?"
"Sí, that's the one."
"Darn! That's a pity! I spent a small fortune on that bird. What did he die from?"
"From eating 'la carne putrificada.'"
"Rotten meat? Who fed him rotten meat?"
"Nobody, senor. He ate the meat of the 'caballo muerto.'"
"Dead horse? What dead horse?"
"The thoroughbred, Mr. Lucky."
"Mr. Lucky! My horse that won the Preakness a few years back?"
"Sí."
"How did he die?"
"He died from all that work pulling the water cart."
"Are you insane? What water cart?"
"The one we used to put out the 'incendio.'" "Good Lord! What fire are you talking about, man?"
"The one at your 'hacienda'! A candle fell, and the curtains caught on fire."
"What!!! But there's electricity at the house!!!! What was the candle for?"
"For the funeral."
"FUNERAL? WHAT FUNERAL?!"
"Your mother's. She showed up one night out of the blue, and I thought she was a thief, so I hit her with your new Tiger Woods Nike Driver."
*SILENCE*
"Ernesto, if you broke that driver, you're fired!"

Europe is not a country. liked the jokes, its good to laugh at ourselves.

 

[kenmuldoon55]

I know what love is not. While some on this forum have acted like loving brothers and sisters, others have shown the exact opposite spirit. It is like night and day. It's quite clear who are still serving Jehovah and who are not serving Jehovah. Berean Study Bible Malachi 3:18 "So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.”

And by the way, isn't a servant and a slave basically the same thing? Are we going to split hairs and quibble about words? Really Brother? Perhaps I should exit the conversation if that's the case. Yes, I know you wear the pants. So, I'm still a servant of Jehovah. It's not presumtuous to consider myself Jehovah's servant. ⚘

"A servant is not greater than his Master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also." John 15:20

Some translations say servant, NWT says slave in some places. I guess that's why they're called Watchtower slaves, Watchtower translates servant as slave in more places than some other translations.

Romans 14:4 "Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand"

Servant:
The expression "servant of God" appears nine times in the Bible, the first five in the Old Testament, the last four in the New. The Hebrew Bible refers to "Moses the servant of Elohim" (Chronicles 6:49, 2 Chronicles 24:9, Nehemiah 10:29, and Daniel 9:11). Judges 2:8, 2 Timothy 2:15). refers to Joshua as ‘eḇeḏ Yahweh.

The New Testament also describes Moses in this way in Revelation 15:3 Paul calls himself "a servant of God" in Titus 1:1, while James calls himself "a servant of God and the Lord Jesus Christ", in James 1:1. 1 Peter 2:16 describes "servants of God" being free to act within the bounds of God's will. Following usage conventions established in the King James Bible, the word "servant" is never capitalized or used as a title of nobility. ("The servant is not greater than his lord.")[1]

While being a servant or a slave to Jehovah never carries with it a negative connotation, if it were possible I would prefer to be known and remembered by Jehovah as His friend.
“and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.”
James 2:23

 

[LuisMerino9412]

What is love?
Baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me
No more...
Hahaha
Just fooling around a Lil bit. Haha

 

[SusanB]

What is love?
Baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me
No more...
Hahaha
Just fooling around a Lil bit. Haha

That tune has been in my head since I saw the title of this thread but I couldn’t remember the words. Thank you for reminding me and letting me know I’m not the only one with a brain like this.

 

[יהוה_saves]

"Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up, does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." - 1 Cor 13:4-7

the most beautiful words ever written.

 

[Posstot]

wherever humans spread out to in the cosmos and what territories the 144K will be assigned to individually

A bit off topic, but if humans were to be born after the final test, there would be no way of redeeming them if they should rebel or sin; hence I don't think there will ever be any human life on any planet other than the earth.

 

[StillA_WorshiperOfJah]

What is love?
Baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me
No more...

This was actually the only correct possible answer to this thread title

 

[kirmmy]

Back from a time when SNL was funny:

The first part anyway...

 

[SusanB]

Back from a time when SNL was funny:

The first part anyway...

Back when Jim Carrey was funny!