Which method of execution is accurate and true? A or B?

BroRando

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In order for the following prophecy to be fulfilled, “He is guarding all his bones; Not one of them has been broken.” (Psalm 34:20)

Which method of death is accurate and true? A or B?​
 
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Driving a nail through the hand would of broken bones. And if the nail should be placed between the fingers, the flesh would easily tear under the weight. But if a nail was driven through his flesh between the bones that surrounded the nail beneath the wrists, not only would the prophecy be fulfilled but it would attach the body to the stauros.

Broken bones would have hasten his death and the torture would have been cut short. Jesus was already beaten, tortured, and flogged to the point of exhaustion that a bystander was compelled into service to carry his torture stake.

"And disrobing him, they draped him with a scarlet cloak, and they braided a crown out of thorns and put it on his head and put a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying: “Greetings, you King of the Jews!” And they spat on him and took the reed and began hitting him on his head. (Matthew 27:28-30)
 
I’ll say this, seeing that x-ray it is a good point, if a nail went through his hands his bones would have broken. So do the scriptures say the nails went through his hands? Did doubting Thomas put his finger through the holes in his hands? Or was it the wrist? What do the scriptures say?
 
The wrists and forearms are included in the definitions of hands. For instance, when law enforcement places cuffs around the wrists and forearms they are not called wrist cuffs are they?

Where are they placed? Around the wrists. Yet, what are they called? Handcuffs.
 
Jesus said to Thomas “see my hands” so that includes his wrist. I’m not saying your wrong I’m just trying to get a sense of what is really truth…hands or wrist, where did the nail go into, that’s what I’m trying to figure out.
 
Jesus said to Thomas “see my hands” so that includes his wrist. I’m not saying your wrong I’m just trying to get a sense of what is really truth…hands or wrist, where did the nail go into, that’s what I’m trying to figure out.
Keep trying, it will come. It's a process. Applying the prophecy helped me. In order for the following prophecy to be fulfilled,
He is guarding all his bones; Not one of them has been broken.” (Psalm 34:20)

Look intently at the picture. Where does Christendom place the nails? Now look at the wrists. The wrists were even worse. The nail would be placed in a manner that with one good thrust with a round hammer the nail would simply Peirce flesh only between the between the bones the radius and the ulna. About an inch below the wrist.

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Well to keep Psalm 34:20 to be true, yeah it would have to be through the wrist, if it was hands no doubt the bones would have to break with a nail through them. I guess it throws people off when the scripture says hands.
 
Well to keep Psalm 34:20 to be true, yeah it would have to be through the wrist, if it was hands no doubt the bones would have to break with a nail through them. I guess it throws people off when the scripture says hands.
It does. But it comes with a lack of understanding. As you mediate on these things, you know the truth and in which manner. A picture is worth a thousand words but now your view is coming into focus. Also, I'll share this with you. The scriptures states, "print of the nails" with nails being plural but is that accurate? The scripture should state (prints of the nail).

Question: Can only one Nail make two prints?

The Greek word for nails actually mean Nail in singular.
2247. hélos
Strong's Concordance
hélos: a nail​
Original Word: ἧλος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hélos
Phonetic Spelling: (hay'-los)
Definition: a nail
Usage: a nail.
 
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What about his feet, where did the nails go?
Well some claim that the heel could be pierced without breaking. Seems to be some evidence because there is a fossil of a heel as evidence with a nail through it. But there is also a place a few inch above the ankle that the nail can pierce without going through bone.

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He could have been nailed through his wrist but still be on the stake with the cross piece.
Also, when it comes to his bones not being broken it wasn't whether or not the nail did it.
It was the fact that they wanted to have them 3 hurry and die so they could take them down, they broke the legs so it would speed up the process. But when they got to Jesus he had already died so they did not have to break his legs.

[31 Since it was the day of Preparation,+ so that the bodies would not remain on the torture stakes+ on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath day was a great one),+ the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken away. 32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and those of the other man who was on a stake alongside him. 33 But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs. 34 But one of the soldiers jabbed his side with a spear,+ and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And the one who has seen it has given this witness, and his witness is true, and he knows that what he says is true, so that you also may believe.+ 36 In fact, these things took place for the scripture to be fulfilled: “Not a bone of his will be broken.”+ 37 And again, a different scripture says: “They will look to the one whom they pierced.”]
 
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In order for the following prophecy to be fulfilled, “He is guarding all his bones; Not one of them has been broken.” (Psalm 34:20)

Which method of death is accurate and true? A or B?​
Numbers 9:12 "They must not let any of it remain until morning, and they should not break any bone in it. They should prepare it according to every statute regarding the Passover."

This prophesy would still be fulfilled if they drove a nail into the hand, so long as the nail went in-between the carpal bones. Being that it was Jesus, this probably happened, but I would imagine there were executions where the nail shattered the central capitate bone. Any way you cut it, this would have been an incredible painful and uncomfortable way to die. Most people probably fainted at this point. The pain from driving a nail into the hand would have been much worse than had they driven it into the soft flesh between the ulna and the radius bones. Just the thought makes me feel so much more sympathy for the pain Jesus endured.
 
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Driving a nail through the hand would of broken bones. And if the nail should be placed between the fingers, the flesh would easily tear under the weight. But if a nail was driven through his flesh between the bones that surrounded the nail beneath the wrists, not only would the prophecy be fulfilled but it would attach the body to the stauros.
However, you could still have him put to death on cross with the nails going through the wrist. I believe the cross is the proper way He was put to death.
 
So here's a treatise by former Bethelite Randall Watters.

History of crucifixion and archeological proof of the cross, as opposed to a stake.

Britannica reports that the first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)

Some further detail is given in "The Eerdman's Bible Dictionary", Rev. Ed., 1975: CROSS ... Crucifixion is first attested among the Persians (cf. Herodotus, Hist. i.128.2; iii.132.2, 159.1), perhaps derived from the Assyrian impalement. It was later employed by the Greeks, especially Alexander the Great, and by the Carthaginians, from whom the Romans adapted the practice as a punishment for slaves and non-citizens, and occasionaly for citizens guilty of treason. Although in the Old Testament the corpses of blasphemers or idolaters punished by stoning might be handged "on a tree" as further humiliation (Deut. 21:23), actual crucifixion was not introduced in Palestine until Hellenistic times. The Seleucid Antiochus IV Epiphanes crucified those Jews who would not accept hellenization (Josephus Ant. xii.240-41; cf 1 Macc. 1:44-50).

Archeological proof of the cross, as opposed to a stake.

Historical findings have substantiated the traditional cross. One finding is a graffito1 dating to shortly after 200 A.D., taken from the walls of the Roman Palatine. It is a drawing of a crucified ass; a mockery of a Christian prisoner who worships Christ. The Romans were no doubt amused that Christians worshiped this Jesus whom they had crucified on a cross.

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In June of 1968, bulldozers working north of Jerusalem accidentally laid bare tombs dating from the first century B.C. and the first century A.D. Greek archeologist Vasilius Tzaferis was instructed by the Israeli Department of Antiquities to carefully excavate these tombs. Subsequently one of the most exciting finds of recent times was unearthed - the first skeletal remains of a crucified man. The most significant factor is its dating to around the time of Christ. The skeleton was of a man named Yehohanan son of Chaggol, who had been crucified between the age of 24 and 28. Mr. Tzaferis wrote an article in the Jan/Feb. 1985 issue of the secular magazine Biblical Archaeology Review (BAR), and here are some of his comments regarding crucifixion in Jesus' time:
At the end of the first century B.C., the Romans adopted crucifixion as an official punishment for non-Romans for certain limited transgressions. Initially, it was employed not as a method of execution, but only as a punishment. Moreover, only slaves convicted of certain crimes were punished by crucifixion. During this early period, a wooden beam, known as a furca or patibulum was placed on the slave's neck and bound to his arms.
...When the procession arrived at the execution site, a vertical stake was fixed into the ground. Sometimes the victim was attached to the cross only with ropes. In such a case, the patibulum or crossbeam, to which the victim's arms were already bound, was simply affixed to the vertical beam; the victim's feet were then bound to the stake with a few turns of the rope.

If the victim was attached by nails, he was laid on the ground, with his shoulders on the crossbeam. His arms were held out and nailed to the two ends of the crossbeam, which was then raised and fixed on top of the vertical beam. The victim's feet were then nailed down against this vertical stake.

In order to prolong the agony, Roman executioners devised two instruments that would keep the victim alive on the cross for extended periods of time. One, known as a sedile, was a small seat attached to the front of the cross, about halfway down. This device provided some support for the victim's body and may explain the phrase used by the Romans, "to sit on the cross." Both Eraneus and Justin Martyr describe the cross of Jesus as having five extremities rather than four; the fifth was probably the sedile. (p. 48,49)

In a followup article on this archeological find in the Nov/Dec. issue of BAR, the statement is made:

According to the (Roman) literary sources, those condemned to crucifixion never carried the complete cross, despite the common belief to the contrary and despite the many modern re-enactments of Jesus' walk to Golgotha. Instead, only the crossbar was carried, while the upright was set in a permanent place where it was used for subsequent executions. As the first-century Jewish historian Josephus noted, wood was so scarce in Jerusalem during the first century A.D. that the Romans were forced to travel ten miles from Jerusalem to secure timber for their siege machinery. (p. 21)

Similar are the details mentioned under "Cross" in the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology:

It is certain only that the Romans practised this form of execution. But is is most likely that the stauros had a transverse in the form of a crossbeam. Secular sources do not permit any conclusion to be drawn as to the precise form of the cross, as to whether it was the crux immissa (+) or crux commissa (T). As it was not very common to affix a titlos (superscription, loanword from the Lat. titulus), it does not necessarily follow that the cross had the form of a crux immissa.

There were two possible ways of erecting the stauros. The condemned man could be fastened to the cross lying on the ground at the place of execution, and so lifted up on the cross. Alternatively, it was probably usual to have the stake implanted in the ground before the execution. The victim was tied to the crosspiece, and was hoisted up with the horizontal beam and made fast to the vertical stake. As this was the simpler form of erection, and the carrying of the crossbeam (patibulum) was probably connected with the punishment for slaves, the crux commissa may be taken as the normal practice. The cross would probably have been not much higher than the height of a man. (Vol. 1, p. 392)

Other archeological finds:

Aside from the most recent discoveries, there are a few others of interest we will note. Here is one involving a discovery in 1873:

In 1873 a famous French scholar, Charles Clermant-Ganneau, reported the discovery of a burial chamber or cave on the Mount of Olives. Inside were some 30 ossuaries (rectangular chests made of stone) in which skeletal remains were preserved after their bodies had disintegrated. . . . One (ossuary) had the name "Judah" associated with a cross with arms of equal length. Further, the name "Jesus" occurred three times, twice in association with a cross. . . .

It would be unlikely that Christian Jews would have been buried in that area after 135 A.D. since the Romans forbade Jews to enter Aelia Capitolina . . . after the second Jewish revolt. (from Ancient Times, Vol. 3, No. 1, July 1958, p. 3.)

In 1939 excavations at Herculaneum, the sister city of Pompeii (destroyed in 78 A.D. by volcano) produced a house where a wooden cross had been nailed to the wall of a room. According to Buried History, (Vol. 10, No. 1, March 1974 p. 15):

Below this (cross) was a cupboard with a step in front. This has considered to be in the shape of an ara or shrine, but could well have been used as a place of prayer. . . . If this interpretation is correct, and the excavators are strongly in favor of the Christian significance of symbol and furnishings, then here we have the example of an early house church.

In 1945 a family tomb was discovered in Jerusalem by Prof. E.L. Sukenik of the Museum of Jewish Antiquities of the Hebrew University. Prof. Sukenik is the world's leading authority on Jewish ossuaries. Note his findings:

Two of the ossuaries bear the name "Jesus" in Greek. . . . The second of these also has four large crosses drawn. . . . (Prof. Sukenik) concluded that the full inscriptions and the crosses were related, being expressions of grief at the crucifixion of Jesus, being written about that time. . . . Professor Sukenik points out . . . (that) the cross may represent a "pictorial expression of the crucifixion, tantamount to exclaiming `He was crucified!'" As the tomb is dated by pottery, lamps and the character of the letters used in the inscriptions--from the first century B.C. to not later than the middle of the first century A.D. this means that the inscriptions fall within two decades of the Crucifixion at the latest. (Ancient Times, Vol. 3, No. 1, July 1958, p. 35. See also Vol. 5, No. 3, March 1961, p. 13.)

(Refuting Jehovah's Witnesses, by Randall Watters)​
 
I don't know for sure. There were a lot of different forms of crucifixion. There is historical evidence of upright stakes, T shapes, X shapes, etc.
While it's generally believed that crucifixion would have caused broken bones, it is theoretically possible for someone to be crucified without breaking any bones, including when the nails were driven in, especially when you have Jehovah seeing to it that certain prophecies are fulfilled.

Even if God didn't do anything to ensure his bones did not break, this still could have happened if the nails were driven in between the bones. It’s also worth noting that the Gospel of John says that the soldiers did not break Jesus’ legs because they saw that he was already dead (John 19:33).

In Roman crucifixion, the legs of the victim were often broken to hasten their death, but this wasn’t necessary in Jesus’ case. As for the exact form of execution Jesus underwent isn't terribly important to me because I know the bible is true. The prophecy was fulfilled, even if it wasn't an upright stake as Watchtower insists.



Even if it was a cross, that doesn't mean I'd use it in worship. I still think that's ridiculous. Jesus would likely agree.

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I think the possibility is that Jesus didn't carry the actual cross but the cross beam, it was the crossbeam that he was nailed too and then hoisted up to the actual pole embedded in the ground.
 
I think the possibility is that Jesus didn't carry the actual cross but the cross beam, it was the crossbeam that he was nailed too and then hoisted up to the actual pole embedded in the ground.
That would make the most sense. Even just the cross beam could weigh a lot. They discussed this in the video. I forget the weight he alluded to.
 
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This was an interesting video on the discussed topic.
I absolutely love Metatron. His videos a super well researched, and he always remains objective, despite his spiritual beliefs. I forgot about this one.
 
I’ll say this, seeing that x-ray it is a good point, if a nail went through his hands his bones would have broken. So do the scriptures say the nails went through his hands? Did doubting Thomas put his finger through the holes in his hands? Or was it the wrist? What do the scriptures say?
Yeah, except, there is no reason what so ever, why the nails could not have been driven through his wrists on a cross...let me put it another way, whether Jesus died on a stake or a cross is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY IRRELEVANT! The only reason WT tries to make it relevant, is because WT was not satisfied with being right about some things, they desperately wanted to be right about all things..."pride comes before a fall."
Let me put it yet another way, one of WT's claims is that Jehovah would not have allowed Jesus to die on a "pagan cross." So Jehovah allowed Jesus to be humiliated, falsely accused of blasphemy, beaten, NO SCOURGED! Whipped with a whip that literally tore the skin/flesh off of the bone, then nail to a stake/cross and KILLED BY pagan's AND THE DEVIL...but Jehovah said..."no I draw the line at my son dying on a cross."


ABSURD! And again, completely and totally irrelevant, and I might add, I have a whole thread about how JW's make crap up and straight up LIE, to lend credence to something we have no way of knowing one way or another!
 
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