Who is Abaddon and Apollyon?

[White Stone]

Abbadon as Samyaza from what we know of the 2nd temple period appears the most likely possibility. Various hypotheses are always welcome as ever though.

At first(beside as what I thought from the WT), I thought it was Satan. But Satan is not in the abyss, so it could be one of his angels.

 

[White Stone]

Revelation 9:7-11 "And in appearance the locusts resembled horses prepared for battle; on their heads were what seemed to be crowns of gold, and their faces were like human faces, but they had hair like women’s hair. And their teeth were like those of lions, and they had breastplates like iron breastplates. And the sound of their wings was like the sound of horse-drawn chariots rushing into battle. Also, they have tails with stingers like scorpions, and in their tails is their authority to hurt the people for five months. They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon."

Robert's gone into this elsewhere, but I'll attempt to show you why I believe the locusts are the 144,000.
1. They have crowns of gold because they are kings... and we know there are only 144,000 kings and priests.
2. They have human faces because they are humans... the anointed are taken from mankind.
3. They have hair because they're the bride of Christ.
4. They have teeth of lions... maybe this is because Jesus is the lion of Judah?
5. They wear a breastplate because they are going into battle.
6. The have scorpion's tails so they can sting those who take the MOTB.

As for them being chimera the anointed won't look like this.... because this is all symbolic, not literal.

The proceeding verse could give a clue.

Revelation 9:13-19 “The sixth angel blew his trumpet. And I heard one voice from the horns of the golden altar that is before God say to the sixth angel who had the trumpet: “Untie the four angels who are bound at the great river Eu·phraʹtes.” And the four angels who have been prepared for the hour and day and month and year were untied to kill a third of the people. The number of the armies of cavalry was two myriads of myriads; I heard the number of them. And this is how I saw the horses in the vision and those seated on them: They had fire-red and hyacinth-blue and sulfur-yellow breastplates, and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. A third of the people were killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the sulfur that came out of their mouths. For the authority of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with these they inflict harm.”​

These are angelic beings being brought upon mankind.

Regarding the features of the locusts, this is I could come up.
1). Crowns signify authority or dominion, a prince or ruler, of which they once had. Just as the angel of Persia is called “prince” of Persia where he fought with Michael, and the prince of Greece.

2) Human faces, or faces of men— to signify these angels’ “carnality” or flesh-like personality.(Galatians 5:19-21)

3) It’s not just a breastplate, but “like iron breastplates”, which is dark in color or even black. Could this just mean sturdiness, or unrighteousness?

4)Having a long hair is a disgrace or dishonor to man, of which these angels subjected themselves.(1 Corinthians 11:14)

 

[White Stone]

From the insight, an interesting read.

Nergal

A Babylonian deity especially worshiped at Cuthah, a city that history says was dedicated to Nergal. The people of Cuth (Cuthah), whom the king of Assyria settled in the territory of Samaria, continued worshiping this deity. (2Ki 17:24, 30, 33) Some scholars suggest that Nergal was originally associated with fire and the heat of the sun and that later he came to be regarded as a god of war and hunting as well as a bringer of pestilence. The appellatives applied to Nergal in religious texts indicate that he was basically viewed as a destroyer. He is called “the raging king,” “the violent one,” and “the one who burns.” Nergal also came to be regarded as the god of the underworld and the consort of Eresh-Kigal. The human-headed and winged lion is thought to have been the emblem of Nergal.

Nergal‘s description it seems is well connected to the description of the abyss when opened in the Revelation.

 

[The God Pill]

The proceeding verse could give a clue.

Revelation 9:13-19 “The sixth angel blew his trumpet. And I heard one voice from the horns of the golden altar that is before God say to the sixth angel who had the trumpet: “Untie the four angels who are bound at the great river Eu·phraʹtes.” And the four angels who have been prepared for the hour and day and month and year were untied to kill a third of the people. The number of the armies of cavalry was two myriads of myriads; I heard the number of them. And this is how I saw the horses in the vision and those seated on them: They had fire-red and hyacinth-blue and sulfur-yellow breastplates, and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. A third of the people were killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the sulfur that came out of their mouths. For the authority of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with these they inflict harm.”​

These are angelic beings being brought upon mankind.

Regarding the features of the locusts, this is I could come up.
1). Crowns signify authority or dominion, a prince or ruler, of which they once had. Just as the angel of Persia is called “prince” of Persia where he fought with Michael, and the prince of Greece.

2) Human faces, or faces of men— to signify these angels’ “carnality” or flesh-like personality.(Galatians 5:19-21)

3) It’s not just a breastplate, but “like iron breastplates”, which is dark in color or even black. Could this just mean sturdiness, or unrighteousness?

4)Having a long hair is a disgrace or dishonor to man, of which these angels subjected themselves.(1 Corinthians 11:14)

Perhaps the cavalry is not so much wicked angels as it's the 90% of watcher descendants evil spirits abyssed in jubilees if there were three generations of hybrids as jubilees claims that could reach two myriads of myriads if there were around a hundred kids for each watcher and hybrid descendant. The locust the 200 watchers the majority of their spawn that is not roaming around at the moment released shortly after. The bastards make sense as two myriads of myriads of angels whether good or wicked could probably wipe out mankind in less than a minute.

 

[The God Pill]

From the insight, an interesting read.

Nergal

A Babylonian deity especially worshiped at Cuthah, a city that history says was dedicated to Nergal. The people of Cuth (Cuthah), whom the king of Assyria settled in the territory of Samaria, continued worshiping this deity. (2Ki 17:24, 30, 33) Some scholars suggest that Nergal was originally associated with fire and the heat of the sun and that later he came to be regarded as a god of war and hunting as well as a bringer of pestilence. The appellatives applied to Nergal in religious texts indicate that he was basically viewed as a destroyer. He is called “the raging king,” “the violent one,” and “the one who burns.” Nergal also came to be regarded as the god of the underworld and the consort of Eresh-Kigal. The human-headed and winged lion is thought to have been the emblem of Nergal.

Nergal‘s description it seems is well connected to the description of the abyss when opened in the Revelation.

The "Assyrian" in some of the prophetic books?

 

[Carl]

What's more likely...

Jesus was given another name in this instance... we know he has several names, so it's not out of the realm of possibilities that Jehovah gave him another name in order to disguise this prophesy. Was the name Apollyon used before John wrote Revelation? I don't know. If it was, then there's a case to be made this isn't Jesus. If not, then people could have falsely assumed it is the name of a demon, and then they ran with it later on, making subsequent generations believe Apollyon is a demon instead of Jesus in disguise.

Or...

Jehovah assigns his enemies the task of torturing those who take the MOTB? Why would Jehovah assign demons anything? Why would demons obey Jehovah at this point, knowing they'll soon be destroyed? This makes no sense to me.

Regarding the locusts, they were only given authority over those who have not the seal of God. But if the torment is just figurative, symbolic, what will this mean?

Exactly... they torment those who take the MOTB. These people will undoubtedly wish they could die, but they will be kept alive as part of their punishment. Who do you think tortures them? Jesus and the 144,000 or demons let loose from the abyss? I don't believe their torment will be symbolic. I think it's going to be 5 months of pain. Whether or not this occurs at the end of the HOT or right after I can't say.

Satan has no authority over the anointed except to persecute and to kill them on the great tribulation.

Correct. He does this during the GT... then they're sealed. Once they've been killed, they're considered to be in the abyss... i.e. dead. Only Jesus has the keys to undo death, so only Jesus has the keys to the abyss. Would Jehovah give demons the ability to resurrect the dead? I doubt it.

The two witnesses were given authority to plague the earth as often as they wish during their prophesying in 42 months.(Revelation 11:6)But these locust were only given a time of 5 months and it was only to “torment” and not to kill.(Revelation 9:5)How would you reconcile this?

The 42 months is the Hour of Test. The locusts are released from the abyss after, during the first woe. I'll admit I don't know the exact timeline, and neither does anyone else. I believe the anointed are sealed sometime towards the beginning of the HOT, then killed closer to the end.

 

[The God Pill]

What's more likely...

Jesus was given another name in this instance... we know he has several names, so it's not out of the realm of possibilities that Jehovah gave him another name in order to disguise this prophesy. Was the name Apollyon used before John wrote Revelation? I don't know. If it was, then there's a case to be made this isn't Jesus. If not, then people could have falsely assumed it is the name of a demon, and then they ran with it later on, making subsequent generations believe Apollyon is a demon instead of Jesus in disguise.

Or...

Jehovah assigns his enemies the task of torturing those who take the MOTB? Why would Jehovah assign demons anything? Why would demons obey Jehovah at this point, knowing they'll soon be destroyed? This makes no sense to me.

Exactly... they torment those who take the MOTB. These people will undoubtedly wish they could die, but they will be kept alive as part of their punishment. Who do you think tortures them? Jesus and the 144,000 or demons let loose from the abyss? I don't believe their torment will be symbolic. I think it's going to be 5 months of pain. Whether or not this occurs at the end of the HOT or right after I can't say.

Correct. He does this during the GT... then they're sealed. Once they've been killed, they're considered to be in the abyss... i.e. dead. Only Jesus has the keys to undo death, so only Jesus has the keys to the abyss. Would Jehovah give demons the ability to resurrect the dead? I doubt it.

The 42 months is the Hour of Test. The locusts are released from the abyss after, during the first woe. I'll admit I don't know the exact timeline, and neither does anyone else. I believe the anointed are sealed sometime towards the beginning of the HOT, then killed closer to the end.

Some of these qumran hymns mention Abaddon quite a bit might provide some context

8 - The Hymns

 

[Carl]

Some of these qumran hymns mention Abaddon quite a bit might provide some context

"As the Abysses boil above the fountains of the waters,
the towering waves and billows shall rage
with the voice of their roaring;
and as they rage,
[Hell and Abaddon] shall open
[and all] the flying arrows of the Pit
shall send out their voice to the Abyss."

Not sure I trust this as an inspired source. Was it written before or after Revelation?

 

[The God Pill]

"As the Abysses boil above the fountains of the waters,
the towering waves and billows shall rage
with the voice of their roaring;
and as they rage,
[Hell and Abaddon] shall open
[and all] the flying arrows of the Pit
shall send out their voice to the Abyss."

Not sure I trust this as an inspired source. Was it written before or after Revelation?

Texts in the caves are typically 3rd century bc- 1st century ad

 

[White Stone]

It isJehovah assigns his enemies the task of torturing those who take the MOTB? Why would Jehovah assign demons anything? Why would demons obey Jehovah at this point, knowing they'll soon be destroyed? This makes no sense to me.

Why did Jehovah use the wild beast to destroy Babylon the Great? Why did Jehovah allowed Satan to harm his faithful ones even to the end? Why did Jehovah put under all the kingdom of men to Satan?

Jesus gave an illustration of a man who was casted away of one spirit but later on came back with seven spirits. He became so because he did not follow God’s commandment to be holy. That’s what happened to Israel. That’s why at the time of Jesus, there are infirmities of many kinds, such as demon possessions, because they could not keep his holy covenant and be protected from Satan’s curses, from demons inflicting harm.

If given the chance, demons will torment mankind. For example, the man with the Legion spirit. Satan, when he was given the chance, killed Job’s children and hurt Job with painful boils or ulcer.

When they are released, wickedness will increase more likely, and fulfilling God’s prophecy in Revelation:

Revelation 16:14 “They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.”​

​

It is not without substance that the locusts may represent wicked entities.

 

[Carl]

In the Hebrew Scriptures Abaddon wasn't referring to a king/person, it was referring to destruction. Only at Rev. 9:11 is Abaddon/Apollyon called a king. Do you believe some demon or Satan is going to be given a kingship over demonic locusts so they can torture those who take the MOTB?

 

[White Stone]

At that, I’m still weighing if its a wicked entity or Jesus Christ, but more on Jesus. On the case that it is Jesus Christ, he will only lead them as what it is said, only those who do not have the mark. If of wicked entity, it will be just like king nebuchadnezzar is called, was also referred to as destroyer.

Satan indeed has a kingdom. It is not a surprise if one is the king of these locusts.

Luke11:18 “In the same way, if Satan is also divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say I expel the demons by means of Be·elʹze·bub.”​

 

[The God Pill]

Five months is a reference to the flood. Genesis 7:24, ESV: And the waters prevailed on the earth 150 days. Semyaza was leader "king" one could say of the entire Gen 6 shenanigans pre flood, the pre flood rebels had chiefs of tens and even regular rebels back then would have authority over there spawn. Even the bastards in some context can be referred to as kings take the myth of Atlantis ruled by ten kings (interesting Revelation mentions ten kings) that were "demigod" sons of poseidon

 

[White Stone]

The "Assyrian" in some of the prophetic books?

What do you mean?

 

[The God Pill]

What do you mean?

There's some character in a few of the prophetic books called the assyrian it's easy to find searching the term on jw library app bible. I wasn't really making any comments but was curious if you were equating the entity called nergal with it.

 

[Carl]

Satan indeed has a kingdom. It is not a surprise if one is the king of these locusts.

I agree, but we're not talking about a normal kingdom. I believe the description of the locusts fits with their being the 144,000, so that would make Apollyon Jesus. If Apollyon is Satan and the locusts are demons, I don't see why they would so closely resemble the description of the 144,000. Why wouldn't Jehovah just say they were demons released to torment those who take the MOTB? Why the riddle? IMHO, the reason for the riddle is so Satan can use it to trick Christians towards the end. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter either way. I highly doubt any of us here will EVER take the MOTB, but could this riddle be used against otherwise unsuspecting Christians? Does it even matter? I guess that's really why I started this thread, because I want to know.

 

[White Stone]

Jehovah assigns his enemies the task of torturing those who take the MOTB? Why would Jehovah assign demons anything? Why would demons obey Jehovah at this point, knowing they'll soon be destroyed? This makes no sense to me.

1 Corinthians 5:3-5 “Although absent in body, I am present in spirit, and I have already judged the man who has done this, as if I were actually with you. . .you must hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Satan is associated with destruction. The one he possessed, Judas Iscariot, is called “the son of destruction”.

 

[White Stone]

There's some character in a few of the prophetic books called the assyrian it's easy to find searching the term on jw library. I wasn't really making any comments but was curious if you were equating the entity called nergal with it.

First time to see this connection. It maybe is, after all, nations are represented by their gods.

Isaiah 31:8 “And the As·syrʹi·an will fall by the sword, not of a man; And a sword, not of a human, will devour him. He will flee because of the sword, And his young men will be put to forced labor.”

 

[The God Pill]

I agree, but we're not talking about a normal kingdom. I believe the description of the locusts fits with their being the 144,000, so that would make Apollyon Jesus. If Apollyon is Satan and the locusts are demons, I don't see why they would so closely resemble the description of the 144,000. Why wouldn't Jehovah just say they were demons released to torment those who take the MOTB? Why the riddle? IMHO, the reason for the riddle is so Satan can use it to trick Christians towards the end. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter either way. I highly doubt any of us here will EVER take the MOTB, but could this riddle be used against otherwise unsuspecting Christians? Does it even matter? I guess that's really why I started this thread, because I want to know.

I agree it's a relatively minor topic not effecting the ultimate outcome of everything and not one worth things getting heated. I'd much rather be wrong on this but I'd say it's advantageous to keep the worst case scenario in the back of our minds on it otherwise it'd be a lot more freaky/unpleasant for people if all of the sudden there were ten times as many demons plaguing mankind.

 

[Carl]

1 Corinthians 5:3-5 “Although absent in body, I am present in spirit, and I have already judged the man who has done this, as if I were actually with you. . .you must hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Satan is associated with destruction. The one he possessed, Judas Iscariot, is called “the son of destruction”.

Good point, but I think what was meant here wasn't literally giving someone to Satan in order to torture, but rather disfellowshipping an unrepentant sinner to his flesh, which of course Satan will take full advantage of. This sinner would still receive a resurrection during the day of the lord, and thus his spirit could still be saved. I just don't see demons cooperating with Jehovah once their time is up, unless it's one last hurrah for them.

I agree it's a relatively minor topic not effecting the ultimate outcome of everything and not one worth things getting heated. I'd much rather be wrong on this but I'd say it's advantageous to keep the worst case scenario in the back of our minds on it otherwise it'd be a lot more freaky/unpleasant for someone if all of the sudden there were ten times as many demons plaguing mankind.

I've enjoyed this discussion. If it matters then Jehovah will clear it up for us when Jesus returns.