PJ54
Well-known member
Life probably went a slower pace since there was plenty of time. No doubt it affected a person perception.
Why was the realisation of nakedness made a factor in eating from the tree of knowledge. Genesis 3:11.
- Thread starter BARNABY THE DOG.
- Start date
That is a good point "procreation at a glacial pace"
Adam was seven years old at the fall WOW! i had never figured that, it must be the WT magazines and their pictures of Adam and Eve that had conditioned me to see them as prime of life adults.
kirmmy
Well-known member
Jesus said that unless you become like children you won't inherit the kingdom of God. Adam and Eve were like children in their innocence. Children aren't ashamed of their bodies and won't cover up if they're naked. When Adam and Eve sinned they lost their childlike innocence and then their genitalia became shameful to them. They were the "instruments", if you will, of spreading sin and death.
Well that's my take anyway... But I must say, I'm most intrigued by God Pill's glowing schwanstuker hypothesis.
Well that's my take anyway... But I must say, I'm most intrigued by God Pill's glowing schwanstuker hypothesis.
R
RR144
Guest
So out of everything I stated, that's the one thing you walk away with? A side comment?
RR
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Cristo
Well-known member
Apparently. I offered more actually, was the side comment all you walked away with? didn't mean to offend.
R
RR144
Guest
I read a lot of old books and commentaries, after a while those terms become second nature, just like certain JW terminology. The word Advent simply means "coming", when we speak of Jesus birth and ministry, we describe it as his "first advent". At his return, we describe it as his "Second Advent". Remember the Millerites called themselves 2nd Adventist because they were waiting for the imminent return of Jesus.
He was testing their faith on whether or not they would be honest. He knew they had sinned. He asked them, and instead of admitting what they did, they admitted to what the outcome of what they did, "we were naked, so we hid."
Just as side comment, you mentioned "Jehovah dressed them", Gen. 3:21 tells us, "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. God Himself made “coats of skins, and clothed Adam and Eve". This act was a picture that God would provide His Son as the ransom sacrifice. Earlier Adam and Eve had sewn together fig leaves to clothe themselves in aprons (like loincloths). Now God used skins to cover nakedness of not just private parts but nearly the whole body. The “clothing” would have been like a tunic, front and back. Since animals had to be killed to provide the skins, God was also showing the lesson that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins (Heb. 9:22). The providing of skins was an act of forgiveness; it showed the possibility of recovery. According to God’s promise, the serpent, the instrument of deception, would have its head crushed by the seed of the woman (Gen. 3:15). A way out was thus suggested for the long term future, but Adam and Eve were not fully aware of the significance. However, they did realize that their present life would terminate, that they would return to dust, and that ultimately the serpent would be crushed, so they did have hope of a vague future recovery.
So you think perhaps perfect humanity will be naked in the Kingdom? I have to admit that thought has crossed my mind. It would certainly make for interesting pictures in Watchtower publications.
RR
R
RR144
Guest
More thoughts after sleep
could the tree of Knowledge of good and evil be a key factor in further understanding the shame that Adam and Eve felt at realising they were naked.
if we believe that the tree was placed in the garden for no other reason than a test for mankind after the command not to eat from it then it has no other relevance.
however, God made the statement at Genesis 3:22 of the effects upon the pair of eating from that tree
Jehovah said " behold the man has become as one of us to know good and evil...."
if the tree had a further purpose of education at a future time decided by Jehovah to enable mankind to become as "one of us knowing good and evil" then a new possibility appears
Here we have the fairness of Jehovah being shown in that he provides his higher levels of creation with the ability to choose between right and wrong, to have knowledge of the difference and make a choice.
the Tree then becomes an instrument for educating mankind or in todays world the tree is a software data upload to a hardware intelligence
Adam being the intelligent hardware system and the tree being the software and the download being the eating but only by permission of Jehovah
so could it be that being naked was always a shameful state? and that feeling of shame would be programmed into the software i.e the fruit of the tree?
Adam and Eve would have eventually eaten from it with the consent of God, and felt the same shame and covered themselves anyway.
but i suppose that gives rise to another question
why did god not create Adam in top hat and tails and Eve in a ballrooom dress and call them Fred and Ginger
my Head hurts
could the tree of Knowledge of good and evil be a key factor in further understanding the shame that Adam and Eve felt at realising they were naked.
if we believe that the tree was placed in the garden for no other reason than a test for mankind after the command not to eat from it then it has no other relevance.
however, God made the statement at Genesis 3:22 of the effects upon the pair of eating from that tree
Jehovah said " behold the man has become as one of us to know good and evil...."
if the tree had a further purpose of education at a future time decided by Jehovah to enable mankind to become as "one of us knowing good and evil" then a new possibility appears
Here we have the fairness of Jehovah being shown in that he provides his higher levels of creation with the ability to choose between right and wrong, to have knowledge of the difference and make a choice.
the Tree then becomes an instrument for educating mankind or in todays world the tree is a software data upload to a hardware intelligence
Adam being the intelligent hardware system and the tree being the software and the download being the eating but only by permission of Jehovah
so could it be that being naked was always a shameful state? and that feeling of shame would be programmed into the software i.e the fruit of the tree?
Adam and Eve would have eventually eaten from it with the consent of God, and felt the same shame and covered themselves anyway.
but i suppose that gives rise to another question
why did god not create Adam in top hat and tails and Eve in a ballrooom dress and call them Fred and Ginger
my Head hurts
Ms_ladyblue
Well-known member
Now that’s a good question…I’ve always wondered about the answer to.
Ms_ladyblue
Well-known member
I didn’t know whether to seriously meditate on this or laugh!More thoughts after sleep
could the tree of Knowledge of good and evil be a key factor in further understanding the shame that Adam and Eve felt at realising they were naked.
if we believe that the tree was placed in the garden for no other reason than a test for mankind after the command not to eat from it then it has no other relevance.
however, God made the statement at Genesis 3:22 of the effects upon the pair of eating from that tree
Jehovah said " behold the man has become as one of us to know good and evil...."
if the tree had a further purpose of education at a future time decided by Jehovah to enable mankind to become as "one of us knowing good and evil" then a new possibility appears
Here we have the fairness of Jehovah being shown in that he provides his higher levels of creation with the ability to choose between right and wrong, to have knowledge of the difference and make a choice.
the Tree then becomes an instrument for educating mankind or in todays world the tree is a software data upload to a hardware intelligence
Adam being the intelligent hardware system and the tree being the software and the download being the eating but only by permission of Jehovah
so could it be that being naked was always a shameful state? and that feeling of shame would be programmed into the software i.e the fruit of the tree?
Adam and Eve would have eventually eaten from it with the consent of God, and felt the same shame and covered themselves anyway.
but i suppose that gives rise to another question
why did god not create Adam in top hat and tails and Eve in a ballrooom dress and call them Fred and Ginger
my Head hurts
Cristo
Well-known member
The tree of knowledge of good and bad is incredibly significant in the fact that it represents the first time since creations beginning that free will was used to go against Gods purpose. Knowledge is defined as a fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association. Prior to the sin, Satan obviously had knowledge of good, as that was all he had ever experienced or seen, yet he didn't retain a true knowledge of bad yet. Yes, he knew what bad was, but he had never experienced it, or could associate it to an actual event. It was only until the angel sinned that he truly had a Knowledge of Good and Bad. The tree thus symbolized Satans fall at the moment of the first sin. We know it does not represent Adam & Eves fall for the fact that had they not eaten from the tree, it would have still been called The Tree OF Knowledge of God and bad based off of the event that it represents, the first time free will was used to its full potential in not only making choices that were good, but now bad as well. See here for more detail.
Regarding nakedness, and the awareness of it after the sin, it must have to do with the balance between our physical and spiritual halves. Sin is described as a yoke upon us, a weight, and as mentioned earlier, once the pair sinned, that weight broke the perfect balance between the physical and spiritual halves we all possess. The first symptom was modesty… it would only be a matter of time before all other symptoms of sin would manifest based off of the carnal nature of the flesh living out of balance with our spirit. When we choose to use our free will for spiritual things we become more balanced to our original state and equilibrium, though never able to fully balance, hence the need for Jesus Christ to make up that difference, for his yoke or weight is light, but more than enough to adjust the scales in our favor.
“So, then, because we have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also throw off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us” Heb 12:1
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BARNABY THE DOG.
Well-known member
Sometimes I wish I had waited 300 years to have a child.
BARNABY THE DOG.
Well-known member
Thanks for your replies. A lot to consider. Perhaps the point of the skin clothing being indicative of sacrifice and forgiveness is just such a point. Perhaps insight into nakedness is a reminder of sin then. Interesting point. Thanks.I read a lot of old books and commentaries, after a while those terms become second nature, just like certain JW terminology. The word Advent simply means "coming", when we speak of Jesus birth and ministry, we describe it as his "first advent". At his return, we describe it as his "Second Advent". Remember the Millerites called themselves 2nd Adventist because they were waiting for the imminent return of Jesus.
He was testing their faith on whether or not they would be honest. He knew they had sinned. He asked them, and instead of admitting what they did, they admitted to what the outcome of what they did, "we were naked, so we hid."
Just as side comment, you mentioned "Jehovah dressed them", Gen. 3:21 tells us, "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. God Himself made “coats of skins, and clothed Adam and Eve". This act was a picture that God would provide His Son as the ransom sacrifice. Earlier Adam and Eve had sewn together fig leaves to clothe themselves in aprons (like loincloths). Now God used skins to cover nakedness of not just private parts but nearly the whole body. The “clothing” would have been like a tunic, front and back. Since animals had to be killed to provide the skins, God was also showing the lesson that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins (Heb. 9:22). The providing of skins was an act of forgiveness; it showed the possibility of recovery. According to God’s promise, the serpent, the instrument of deception, would have its head crushed by the seed of the woman (Gen. 3:15). A way out was thus suggested for the long term future, but Adam and Eve were not fully aware of the significance. However, they did realize that their present life would terminate, that they would return to dust, and that ultimately the serpent would be crushed, so they did have hope of a vague future recovery.
So you think perhaps perfect humanity will be naked in the Kingdom? I have to admit that thought has crossed my mind. It would certainly make for interesting pictures in Watchtower publications.
RR
BARNABY THE DOG.
Well-known member
I’m not sure on that point. If clothing were a result of maturity of mind, then what are the lesser ones to think of clothing? It makes it look like a typical watchtower bait to “take the lead”. It also leads to the question as to ‘what has he/she got to hide!’ A progression of that would be to ask if seductive clothing were a draw to further one‘s insight. On the other hand, why are ‘aliens’ always depicted as being naked? I’m beginning to think that I should have posed the question ‘What day of the week is it?’ This is doing my head in too!More thoughts after sleep
could the tree of Knowledge of good and evil be a key factor in further understanding the shame that Adam and Eve felt at realising they were naked.
if we believe that the tree was placed in the garden for no other reason than a test for mankind after the command not to eat from it then it has no other relevance.
however, God made the statement at Genesis 3:22 of the effects upon the pair of eating from that tree
Jehovah said " behold the man has become as one of us to know good and evil...."
if the tree had a further purpose of education at a future time decided by Jehovah to enable mankind to become as "one of us knowing good and evil" then a new possibility appears
Here we have the fairness of Jehovah being shown in that he provides his higher levels of creation with the ability to choose between right and wrong, to have knowledge of the difference and make a choice.
the Tree then becomes an instrument for educating mankind or in todays world the tree is a software data upload to a hardware intelligence
Adam being the intelligent hardware system and the tree being the software and the download being the eating but only by permission of Jehovah
so could it be that being naked was always a shameful state? and that feeling of shame would be programmed into the software i.e the fruit of the tree?
Adam and Eve would have eventually eaten from it with the consent of God, and felt the same shame and covered themselves anyway.
but i suppose that gives rise to another question
why did god not create Adam in top hat and tails and Eve in a ballrooom dress and call them Fred and Ginger
my Head hurts
BARNABY THE DOG.
Well-known member
I can understand that. It’s crossed my mind too,I didn’t know whether to seriously meditate on this or laugh!
The God Pill
Well-known member
I don't think the fruit in and of itself granted them some mystical gnosis (knowledge) and while it is certainly very plausible they could have experienced arousal at discerning nakedness in the garden that is reading lust into the text where it doesn't tell us the shame could've been entirely in reference to them and god. But assuming the garments hypothesis I mentioned earlier to give people that assume they experienced arousal a fair shake shame is generally regarded as blocking the solar plexus chakra (coincidentally that aspect of the endocrine and energy system is associated with DNA repair) the one immediately below that one is the sacral the one associated with sexuality. Losing holy spirit, becoming imperfect and there energy output declining to the point they lost there brightness and the shame it is plausible there sexual energy briefly was no longer transmuted to higher forms and there minds experienced a pinch of libido at the newfound exposure of one another. However I think the covering themselves had more to do with God.
BARNABY THE DOG.
Well-known member
Chakra is out of my league! I was brought up on porage for breakfast. I’m wondering if sexuality had anything to do with nakedness, but I suppose it’s all coming down to speculation. The Song of Solomon being included in the scriptures seems contrary to that idea though. My sense of understanding was that being created perfect, mankind would have no sense of nakedness just as other, no less perfect creatures did not and do not to this day. The animals did not come under the condemnation and taking into account what has been suggested by others, reproduction was not very high on the list of topics for discussion for the first families. I have not read anything in the bible that suggests that the first couple were clothed in light and I can not see why that would be in tandem with perfection within the human mode of a physical existence, especially so when the human body is attuned to seasons and night and day. Also, if the temperature of the earth was always ambient, given the thermosphere, what was the need for clothing? There must be a link somewhere for awareness being bestowed on humanity.
Thinking outside of the box, could the concept of time be a factor? Jehovah warned the couple that to take responsibility for their own destiny - ergo, approaching finality through death, perhaps brought with it a completely different comprehension of what happens, and thus outcome, to our existence? Thus, if infinity was our destiny, would our concept of what happens, be completely different? The only clue I can offer biblically to that thought is that found in Revelation: “The former things will not be brought to mind.” Perhaps that statement contains more that just past events?
i would recommend laughing rather than mediation on anything i sayI didn’t know whether to seriously meditate on this or laugh!
the problem we have is we are trying understand the world of Adam and Eve from within the world in which we live.
we have a tendancy to try to compare then with now, its like trying to compare?? ? well i don.t think there is a comparison to clarify that flawed comparison.
temperatures and seasons and night and day as we know them to be today ,after the fall, may be very different from the garden ecosystem
One major differential was that the earth had a heavenly ocean surrounding it, so that raises the question as to how that would effect temperature and night and day and seasons?
So with regard to a no clothing policy for the first humans intended to be in place forever, it may not actually have been a life long policy of Jehovah
were the waters above the earth were placed there for a planned use of controlled flooding of the earth for accomodating the expected expansion of mankind ?
i suppose we are talking about climate change controlled by Jehovah to enable the whole of the earth to be inhabitable and that would mean a change in the atmosphere and the possible need for clothing.
so perhaps to assume that the need of clothing was only as a result of sin and the fall may be a bit blinkered as to What the plan of Jehovah actually was for the whole earth.
john