If you claim to be Anointed. How do you know? Really How?

I hate tro start atopic within a topic, but let me show you what I believe the Bible teaches.

The Scriptures are explicit that not just a few, who call themselves Christians or who believe a certain way, but ALLl mankind will benefit by the death of Jesus. Hebrews 2:9 states, “Jesus Christ by the grace of God tasted death for every man.” God’s justice demands that all mankind, living and dead, before and after the death of Christ, will experience the benefits of Christ’s death.

The following scriptures unfold the beautiful logic of God’s justice in this matter: I Timothy 2:6 speaks of Jesus’ death as “a ransom for all to be testified in due time.” The word “ransom” is a translation of the Greek word anti-lutron which means corresponding price. Adam, perfect, sinned. Death passed upon him and the prospective human race yet in his loins. Deliverance from death required the payment of a corresponding price, the death of a perfect man. No member of the sinful, imperfect, human race could pay this price. Only Jesus, who was “holy, harmless, separate from sinners” could (Hebrews 7:26).

The perfect man Jesus died for Adam’s sin, thereby redeeming Adam and his offspring, the human race, from death. Paul in Romans 5:17 says, “Therefore as by the offense of one [Adam], judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [Jesus], the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

The question is sometimes raised, does not the providing of a ransom for man’s escape from death prove that the death sentence was unjust or too severe, and therefore God changed His mind? The very fact God provided so expensive a ransom price proves that His justice is unbending. In courts of law, several forms of punishment may be equally just for a specific crime; for example, five years’ imprisonment or twenty thousand dollars. Say we were penniless and received such a sentence. After serving half a year, a complete stranger came along and took an interest in our case and paid the twenty thousand dollars, would we not feel indebted to him for the rest of our lives!

The Scriptures reveal that the ransom price, as a satisfaction for justice, was coexistent as an alternative to the death sentence. Thus, Jesus is spoken of as “slain from before the foundation of the world” (I Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8). The Psalmist also states that no man could give a ransom for his brother (Psalms 49:7).

For man’s eternal good, God permits him to experience the effects of the death sentence. Then He applies the alternative means of satisfying justice, the ransom price. When mankind becomes fully aware, they will be eternally indebted to their Redeemer, the one who paid the fine to the court of the universe for their release from the prison-house of death.
It is an interesting viewpoint and I honestly appreciate you sharing it. Otherwise I would be unaware that some have this belief system. Even though I don’t subscribe to that doctrinal point, I realize that it is not my call anyway and so I will leave that up to our Creator. Thankfully I don’t do any judging on behalf of Jehovah. I am encouraged by scriptures that have taken on new meaning because it gives me hope that more than Jehovah’s Witnesses will survive Armageddon. The sister who studied with me also told me that years ago and made sure that I realized that we cannot judge any humans as to whether or not they will survive. I just rest my hope on Jehovah’s mercy while completely trusting his judgment.
 
Throwing a question out there: How do you read Romans chapter 8? Is Paul discussing two groups? The "sons of God" and the "creation" which become children of God later (on earth)? I can read it both ways. (Two groups, or just one being discussed by Paul?) Does the Greek allow for a "one group" reading? (And if not, do we here have another passage pointing to Christians here on earth? As there is no way to become a perfect son of God, except through Christ.)

On a personal note, I identify fully with crying out "Abba," and my goal of my existence is to be fully brought back into our Father's family. Yet I have no calling to heaven. The spirit speaks solidly to me as becoming an earthy son of God. "Abba" is Aramaic. Same root as "Babba" in Arabic. Basically "Poppa" of English. I feel that strongly. Yet no heavenly "call" whatsoever.

I appreciate the discussion, as I've been bouncing this around lately...........
 
Throwing a question out there: How do you read Romans chapter 8? Is Paul discussing two groups? The "sons of God" and the "creation" which become children of God later (on earth)? I can read it both ways. (Two groups, or just one being discussed by Paul?) Does the Greek allow for a "one group" reading? (And if not, do we here have another passage pointing to Christians here on earth? As there is no way to become a perfect son of God, except through Christ.)

On a personal note, I identify fully with crying out "Abba," and my goal of my existence is to be fully brought back into our Father's family. Yet I have no calling to heaven. The spirit speaks solidly to me as becoming an earthy son of God. "Abba" is Aramaic. Same root as "Babba" in Arabic. Basically "Poppa" of English. I feel that strongly. Yet no heavenly "call" whatsoever.

I appreciate the discussion, as I've been bouncing this around lately...........
I cannot offer anything on this topic but I assume you may addressing RR144
 
Maybe because that's what the Scriptures teach. ;)
I've been studying Russell's Millennial Dawn series. I'm about 3,000 pages into it. His deep discussion of the ransom truly gave me a better depth of appreciation for what the Bible teaches on that. I came away understanding that the ransom covers Adam, and was touched by that to the point of tears. The very idea of Adam being covered is hard for JW's because for years now the organization has been teaching the idea that since Adam was perfect, it was an unforgivable sin.
 
Throwing a question out there: How do you read Romans chapter 8? Is Paul discussing two groups? The "sons of God" and the "creation" which become children of God later (on earth)? I can read it both ways. (Two groups, or just one being discussed by Paul?) Does the Greek allow for a "one group" reading?
If you're speaking of verse 20, then yes, two groups, the creation, the human race “For the creation was subjected to futility.” All of Adam’s posterity have inherited the death penalty because of his disobedience and thus are born in sin and “brought forth in iniquity” (Psa. 51:5). “By reason of him who hath subjected the same [the human race] in hope.” The human race is condemned, but there is hope for retrieval. The pronoun “him” refers to God, but there is another lesson too. Satan has taken advantage of the frailty of man. God could have stopped the fall right away and started over with a new human pair, but He permitted evil for man’s experience. The “hope” is for deliverance. Although the world is unaware at the present time, God has given reason for hope, especially from the standpoint of the two salvations.

This “hope” go back to Genesis 3:15, “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”? At the end of the Kingdom Age, the seed of woman will bruise the serpent’s head. Satan will be destroyed, just as Pharaoh was destroyed in the Red Sea at the time of the Exodus. God subjected the human family to frailty through the disobedience of Adam, knowing in advance that Adam would sin and evil would be permitted. However, before Adam sinned, God made provision, through His plan, to ultimately rescue the human race. All are condemned in Adam and die because he willfully ate the forbidden fruit—this is the sin that has come upon the human race.
 
If you're speaking of verse 20, then yes, two groups, the creation, the human race “For the creation was subjected to futility.” All of Adam’s posterity have inherited the death penalty because of his disobedience and thus are born in sin and “brought forth in iniquity” (Psa. 51:5). “By reason of him who hath subjected the same [the human race] in hope.” The human race is condemned, but there is hope for retrieval. The pronoun “him” refers to God, but there is another lesson too. Satan has taken advantage of the frailty of man. God could have stopped the fall right away and started over with a new human pair, but He permitted evil for man’s experience. The “hope” is for deliverance. Although the world is unaware at the present time, God has given reason for hope, especially from the standpoint of the two salvations.

This “hope” go back to Genesis 3:15, “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”? At the end of the Kingdom Age, the seed of woman will bruise the serpent’s head. Satan will be destroyed, just as Pharaoh was destroyed in the Red Sea at the time of the Exodus. God subjected the human family to frailty through the disobedience of Adam, knowing in advance that Adam would sin and evil would be permitted. However, before Adam sinned, God made provision, through His plan, to ultimately rescue the human race. All are condemned in Adam and die because he willfully ate the forbidden fruit—this is the sin that has come upon the human race.
Thank you for the reply. To me, this is one of the most significant passages in the Bible. (Romans 8)
 
I've been studying Russell's Millennial Dawn series. I'm about 3,000 pages into it. His deep discussion of the ransom truly gave me a better depth of appreciation for what the Bible teaches on that. I came away understanding that the ransom covers Adam, and was touched by that to the point of tears. The very idea of Adam being covered is hard for JW's because for years now the organization has been teaching the idea that since Adam was perfect, it was an unforgivable sin.
Amen. When I was a Witness, that was one of the things I couldn't wrap around my head. That only JW's would survive Armageddon and the rest of mankind would perish. I didn't agree, but I couldn't quite prove it scripturally. When I read the chapter on "Ransom and Restitution" and it opened my eyes, the other chapter that opened my eyes was "The Permission of Evil."
 
You have trouble taking me serious….ditto.

Good, that makes us kindred spirits. ;)

you can’t have it both ways, if you are going to insist that Christian means anointed then we can’t say that Messiah means “anointed” now can we!

Christ[ian] is Greek for anointed, and Messiah is Hebrew for anointed, they mean the same thing.

I am not offended by you Posstot and I too am searching for Jehovah’s truth but that doesn’t mean that I will accept what anyone says without checking and applying logic.

I like that about you; we have that in common as well.

You state in response to my mentioning the meek inheriting the earth….”yes, the anointed are it’s heirs along with Christ…so the term meek only applies to the anointed does it?

No, but there are two ways in which the meek can inherit the earth: either as caretaker of the earth, or as caretaker of the caretakers, which is what the Seed of Abraham became heir to on the basis of faith.

You seem determined to make the majority of us think that not only are we NOT a Christian if we are not anointed and going to heaven, but that we are in effect, no more important to Jehovah than the animals and that it is only the anointed who are viewed as important…so the rest of us are basically an afterthought,

'Which one is greater, the one reclining at the table or the one ministering?' Lu 22:27

But who will be happier?

'There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving.' Ac 20:35

As on every great estate, gardeners might actually be an afterthought. ;)
 
Not "Adam and Eve’s descendants", but Adam. Jesus died for Adam, and in redeeming Adam, he redeemed everyone who come from his loins, the human race.

Adam was perfect, but transgressed against Jehovah.

Satan was perfect, but transgressed against Jehovah.

If Jesus redeemed Adam, who will redeem Satan?
 
That was the first time I heard that viewpoint too and I felt a bit discouraged by it.

Comment from RR144 from another thread:

"Did you know back in the day, they were called "Jehovah's witnesses" Small "W", ... and ... the term ONLY applied to the anointed. Conventions were advertised as "Jehovah's witnesses and their companions". At conventions, the two groups were segregated. It wasn't until the 1950s that the name applied to both groups and then later the "W" was capitalized."

It pays to check out the history of any club one wants to join.
 
Amen. When I was a Witness, that was one of the things I couldn't wrap around my head. That only JW's would survive Armageddon and the rest of mankind would perish. I didn't agree, but I couldn't quite prove it scripturally. When I read the chapter on "Ransom and Restitution" and it opened my eyes, the other chapter that opened my eyes was "The Permission of Evil."
Yes, the whole "restitution" theme speaks to every human who ever lived, getting a full crack at it, so-to-speak. Russell spoke much of every human being able to make a full-knowledge choice, which most of mankind has not had yet. Christ died for all. All need a full knowledge opportunity to choose to serve God, or not. Even Adam lacked the full perspective that humans will have during the time of the restitution of all things. Human history appears to be such a mess, but Jehovah will stun everyone with how neatly he ties up all the loose ends.
 
Throwing a question out there: How do you read Romans chapter 8? Is Paul discussing two groups? The "sons of God" and the "creation" which become children of God later (on earth)? I can read it both ways. (Two groups, or just one being discussed by Paul?) Does the Greek allow for a "one group" reading? (And if not, do we here have another passage pointing to Christians here on earth? As there is no way to become a perfect son of God, except through Christ.)

On a personal note, I identify fully with crying out "Abba," and my goal of my existence is to be fully brought back into our Father's family. Yet I have no calling to heaven. The spirit speaks solidly to me as becoming an earthy son of God. "Abba" is Aramaic. Same root as "Babba" in Arabic. Basically "Poppa" of English. I feel that strongly. Yet no heavenly "call" whatsoever.

I appreciate the discussion, as I've been bouncing this around lately...........

You are absolutely right about Ro 8, where the 'creation' is distinguished from the 'Sons of God;' but in looking at the NT at large, there seems to be a deliberate omission of catering for those who by default are destined for the earth, and it looks like the WT, under sinister influence, might be running ahead of Jehovah's agenda, by chasing 'other sheep' rather than the anointed - which is the job at hand until Christ returns - just as he tempted Jesus with jumping the gun, and trying to preempt Adam's and Eve's eating from the tree of life in the garden.

1 Jno 2:2 also alludes to those who are destined for life on earth, where Christ is a propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the anointed, as well as the rest of the world who would avail themselves of it.
 
You are absolutely right about Ro 8, where the 'creation' is distinguished from the 'Sons of God;' but in looking at the NT at large, there seems to be a deliberate omission of catering for those who by default are destined for the earth, and it looks like the WT, under sinister influence, might be running ahead of Jehovah's agenda, by chasing 'other sheep' rather than the anointed - which is the job at hand until Christ returns - just as he tempted Jesus with jumping the gun, and trying to preempt Adam's and Eve's eating from the tree of life in the garden.

1 Jno 2:2 also alludes to those who are destined for life on earth, where Christ is a propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the anointed, as well as the rest of the world who would avail themselves of it.
The whole question is fascinating. Early on there was this:

"So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”" (Acts 1:6) Then this:

"Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old." (Acts 3:21)

All the understanding of the earliest Christians was earth-centric. Why would it be any different? Apparently, after the holy spirit was poured out at Pentecost, they began to get some idea of a heavenly call to reign as joint heirs? As subsequent Bible letters gradually reveal. But then, the Revelation seems to give the big earth-centric picture, showing both hopes as history culminates. After all, it has always been all about the earth. This is where the rebellion started, and will end.

As off track as so much of the Wt has been for almost 150 years, there does seem to be the fact that there are genuine Christians manifesting with an earthly hope, as we near the end. I come back to Rev. 7. The "great crowd" are clearly Christians, having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, and they cry out that they owe their salvation to him. They "come out" of the great tribulation, and are guided by Christ to life.

This seems to be where I fit. I have experienced no calling to reign with Christ in heaven, yet experience being a full Christian. I can pray "Our Father" and experience Christ as the only name under heaven by which we must be saved. I can pray, "Abba, Father."

One thing does puzzle me. Why would Christians only experiencing the test of our present life, instantly attain immortality, while those Christians coming off victorious over the wild beast and surviving on earth, need 1,000 years more, and a final test after Satan is let loose, and then receive everlasting life as a mortal human? I'm not complaining, just trying to grasp how such a short trial would give Jehovah the confidence to grant an "indestructible life" which even angels don't have? ..... questions to ponder....:rolleyes:
 
One thing does puzzle me. Why would Christians only experiencing the test of our present life, instantly attain immortality, while those Christians coming off victorious over the wild beast and surviving on earth, need 1,000 years more, and a final test after Satan is let loose, and then receive everlasting life as a mortal human? I'm not complaining, just trying to grasp how such a short trial would give Jehovah the confidence to grant an "indestructible life" which even angels don't have? ..... questions to ponder....:rolleyes:

I think that the privilege is entirely due to undeserved kindness and according to the good pleasure of Jehovah's will, not because of any works or passing of tests, so that no one can boast outside of Him.

Their privilege is for the purpose of serving Jehovah as duly qualified agents to bless those on the earth and represent Him before them, and them before Him, under the Headship of Jesus.

The immortality, among other things, serves the purpose of total independence from Jehovah when rendering decisions affecting people on earth, without any bias or strings attaching.

Jehovah trusts them because He revealed His trustworthiness to them in Christ Jesus, His death and resurrection on their behalf.

I guess, no matter what partial reasons and explanations we can extract from Scripture, it ultimately is just the indescribable free gift of God requiring eternity to ponder.
 
Coming in out of the world, I was thrilled at first to learn about the earthly hope. But after many years the GB started to say troubling things about the Paradise, like how we would be ASSIGNED a place to live and work to do. What happened to the glorious freedom of the children of God? Are the GB going to micromanage us through the 1,000 years too? I prayed to Jehovah many times about this issue and apparently He decided to offer me the option of a heavenly hope, and I accepted His offer.
You dont think you will be assigned a place and work to do in heaven....
 
Ok, now I see the Bklyn side of the name coming out...I must say didn't see that coming. The thing about forums is we really don't know anybody on here. One of these days we won't have to deal with things like not knowing who we are dealing with, it won't matter, for all will know the true God Jehovah, and we won't have to question so many things as we do in this world.
It's a shame that some like Posstot had already made their choice to be Wicked before the 8th King arrives on the scene because then they'll be no turning back from such a bad decision, just like Judas Iscariot who had made his choice final when he had betrayed Jesus.
But there's still time before the 8th Kings rain and Posstot can still turn it around by repenting and doing what's just and good.
 
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