If you claim to be Anointed. How do you know? Really How?

J

Joe MacTeeg

Guest
It's not a judgment, it's an observation based on judas iscariot wicked ways and we know what happened to him due to his practicing what was wicked and if others practice such wickedness you can rest assured that they will suffer the same fate.

Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come. Read more - Warning examples from Israel’s history (1-13)> https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/1-corinthians/10/#v46010001-v46010013
You would have to explain how it is that Posstot is acting like Judas. Maybe I'm missing something as I have not read the whole conversation here, but I've not seen in Posstot what you are accusing him of, in my previous interactions with him......
 

Bklyn Kevin

Well-known member
You would have to explain how it is that Posstot is acting like Judas. Maybe I'm missing something as I have not read the whole conversation here, but I've not seen in Posstot what you are accusing him of, in my previous interactions with him......
You are ignoring content by this member.
Certainly, the term anointed means someone who is born of the Spirit, but because all early Christians were born of God, being a Christian was also synonymous with being anointed.

But in today's usage, as you say, being a Christian largely means someone who follows Christ, or identifies with Christianity on a religio-cultural level.

With 'knowing Christ and Jehovah' you probably mean living by what they stand for, rather than merely holding a correct notion of their individual identity and relationship to each other, and in that respect, the former has not benefited much from the latter, as one might think, when it comes to JWs.

I think it is significant and of divine purpose that during the first 70 years of Christianity, which we find documented in the NT, and even the centuries following, there is no mention of followers of Christ with an earthly hope, although every Christian knew that his going to Heaven would be for the purpose of blessing all the nations of the earth, as promised by God to Abraham and his seed, who is Christ and His anointed followers.

Why don't we hear of people being attracted to Christianity, but not aspiring to go to Heaven, and yet continuing to associate with those who do?

Seeing that Christianity from its inception was the preaching of being with Christ in Heaven to bless mankind, how could someone not having this hope be enthusiastic about spreading a message that did not apply to him directly?

For it is written: 'The man who plows ought to plow in hope and the man who threshes ought to do so in hope of being a partaker.' 1 Co 9:10

We read of certain ones who went back into secular life, so perhaps they were not anointed, or didn't count the cost of discipleship and didn't want to give up their prospect to be resurrected as one of those being blessed by the kingdom of Heaven.

Paul said that preaching Christ impaled would be viewed as offensive or foolish by most people, but recognized as God's wisdom by those being saved for Heaven.

By the way, I knew I should have dressed that kitty in blue, but mistakes happen. ;)
Nice talking to you.
Cristo said: I was reading a post the other day and somebody mentioned she referring to you. I always thought you were a guy. Not that it matters, its' just weird how perceptions of those on the forum are created in our mind when we have no idea who the other person is. Even if you told me you were a she, I probably wouldn't' believe it anyways lol, so like I said, doesn't matter. Talk again.

Posstot replied back "By the way, I knew I should have dressed that kitty in blue, but mistakes happen. ;)

So your real gender is a male and when you were confronted or should I say forced in a corner you had no choice but to admit it or else you would be labeled as a deceptive liar - So in order to save face you made up this lame excuse that you made a mistake by dressing up the kitty in pink instead of blue, most people might buy that lame excuse but I for one am not buying it because you had plenty of time to correct that error and make it known to others about your true gender as being a male, so instead you let the deception go forward for whatever deceptive intent you had in mind.

Your father Satan the devil would be proud of you.​

And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.​

2 Corinthians 11:14-15

The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much. Luke 16: 10

 
S

Searcher

Guest
Cristo said: I was reading a post the other day and somebody mentioned she referring to you. I always thought you were a guy. Not that it matters, its' just weird how perceptions of those on the forum are created in our mind when we have no idea who the other person is. Even if you told me you were a she, I probably wouldn't' believe it anyways lol, so like I said, doesn't matter. Talk again.

Posstot replied back "By the way, I knew I should have dressed that kitty in blue, but mistakes happen. ;)

So your real gender is a male and when you were confronted or should I say forced in a corner you had no choice but to admit it or else you would be labeled as a deceptive liar - So in order to save face you made up this lame excuse that you made a mistake by dressing up the kitty in pink instead of blue, most people might buy that lame excuse but I for one am not buying it because you had plenty of time to correct that error and make it known to others about your true gender as being a male, so instead you let the deception go forward for whatever deceptive intent you had in mind.

Your father Satan the devil would be proud of you.​

And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.​

2 Corinthians 11:14-15

The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much. Luke 16: 10

Because Posstot's profile picture of cat's hat is not blue, he is being like Satan?... Ok, now I'm laughing 😅

Guys, I think everyone should calm down lol. It's a bit like a mountain out of a molehill going on here 😳 😅
 

TravellinRox

Well-known member
okay as of now I am blocking you because you're nothing but a troll.
That’s fine with me …I’m getting pretty tired of certain ones crying that they’re being so mistreated but yet all I see is vitriol coming out of their posts. I and the others who have been on the receiving end of this bullying have tried multitudinous times to be civil and reasonable …and not return evil for evil. But I can’t sit here and pretend that I think this treatment is ok.

I don’t desire to spew vitriol back at anybody because I feel that is very unchristian behavior. But I will let it be known that I feel like it is unfair and hypocritical treatment. I think people can determine for themselves what kind of fruit they are witnessing from any of our posts.

So as a few have mentioned, the ignore button is freely available to any who wish to use it. I have no hard feelings towards any who decide that this route is for them. If it gives you peace of mind and allows you to have a more upbuilding experience then by all means, go for it. It would actually benefit everybody since you won’t feel the need to barrage the threads with unnecessary posts disparaging fellow forum members, condemning them to Gehenna, essentially …when it is clearly not your place to do so. We also deserve to have a peaceful place for discussing scriptures, doctrines and how they piece together. This is not an inappropriate thread in which to do so. So I see no problem with the discussions happening here.

It has been said on another thread that we don’t want to interrupt the flow of threads with potentially hateful or disparaging comments that could pull others down. So please respect your own rules. I’ve said before that I noticed a divisive trend budding …it’s really sad that something like that has to occur on such a beautiful platform. But I guess we need to be realistic. I for one will do my utmost to allow place for all sorts of plants, even those with very different needs, to inhabit this special garden together.
 
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StillA_WorshiperOfJah

Well-known member
Cristo said: I was reading a post the other day and somebody mentioned she referring to you. I always thought you were a guy. Not that it matters, its' just weird how perceptions of those on the forum are created in our mind when we have no idea who the other person is. Even if you told me you were a she, I probably wouldn't' believe it anyways lol, so like I said, doesn't matter. Talk again.

Posstot replied back "By the way, I knew I should have dressed that kitty in blue, but mistakes happen. ;)

So your real gender is a male and when you were confronted or should I say forced in a corner you had no choice but to admit it or else you would be labeled as a deceptive liar - So in order to save face you made up this lame excuse that you made a mistake by dressing up the kitty in pink instead of blue, most people might buy that lame excuse but I for one am not buying it because you had plenty of time to correct that error and make it known to others about your true gender as being a male, so instead you let the deception go forward for whatever deceptive intent you had in mind.

Your father Satan the devil would be proud of you.​

And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.​

2 Corinthians 11:14-15

The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much. Luke 16: 10


This is probably a mistake getting involved, but here goes:

BK I generally enjoy your comments and appreciate your links. I don't always agree with what the person calling themself Posstott says, but comparing him to Satan and Judus seems for disguising his identity, using a picture of a cat with a pink hat seems overly harsh.

Although I don't comment often, I have been following this forum for a while, and 'Posstott' has previously referred to himself as a 'Western Oriental Gentleman.'

How was he 'forced into a corner' when this forum is pretty much anonymous?

This is a website that most JWs would consider apostate, therefore he might have a good reason for wanting to disguise his identity.

Didn't King David disguise (his sanity) when threatened? 1 Sam 22: 12-13

So, is Barnaby the Dog Satan because he probably isn't really a dog?

Is Joe Mcteeg Judas because he probably isn't really a yellow car?

Christian love to you all.
 
J

Joe MacTeeg

Guest
Ezekiel was a prophet given the job of stating Jehovah's own words to people. But we are not prophets of Jehovah and have to be careful not to pass judgments.

I merely asked questions I'm legitimately wondering on. (ie, what does it mean for us if we think the Greek Scriptures were written for the direction of the anointed, but not necessarily everyone else? And, if the 144 000 is literal would that not make the 12 000 from each tribe literal?)

I'm sorry you feel open discussions and valid questions are trolling. I have not baited anyone, as Driven actually initiated the conversation with me. I didn't find the conversation pointless, but engaging; I'm very sorry she found it to be pointless. And I don't believe I've been aggressive, although I did find it a bit aggressive to be told by a stranger that I do not want to find any truth. But that's okay, I'm also not offended. :)

No one should feel pressured into responding to any question I pose if they don't want to, as that's never my intention. Hope you're having a great day! :)
I'm in the question mode about a lot of proposed Bible interpretation. Some things I used to hold to, I now wait if I don't feel I have enough understanding yet to be more certain. The question about the number 144,000 is one of those. My son just asked me about my thoughts about the number the other day. I told him that I go back and forth on it. That right now I am not sure either way. Some things in the Bible only time will tell for sure. I no longer nail down anything until I'm more sure.....and even then I might use screws in case I need to take the plank back up. Not that I am wishy-washy, but I'd rather be "not sure" than dogmatic and wrong.

Ray Franz's second book, In Search of Christian Freedom, changed my approach, in a quite refreshing way. He was the type of man that would welcome into his home, even say, a Trinitarian; as long as he was a respectful person who dignified others with the right to be where they are presently at in their Christian understanding and growth. One could respectfully discuss God's Word together. If they were of a nature to want you to believe as they do, in one sitting, or burn in Hell forever; well, people like that would not be good company......

As a JW, over the years, I met a few people with a good attitude like that; although they disagreed with my beliefs as a JW. I was welcomed into the home of one Trinitarian for repeated good conversations over a period of time. Another man, a Seventh Day Adventist, was of the same nature. I would sit at his diningroom table and we would discuss different Bible topics. On the other hand, I had a Seventh Day Adventist next-door neighbor who was literally demonized, and I had to say "hello" and keep moving to avoid a conversation. Same with many Trinitarians I met. They would have me burning in Hell if they could not convert me in one conversation......

I say all of this, in that we have to allow each other personal space and time to grow in Biblical understanding. Jehovah himself dignifies us in that way.....and Jesus realized that there were many things his followers were not ready for yet.........
 
J

Joe MacTeeg

Guest
Cristo said: I was reading a post the other day and somebody mentioned she referring to you. I always thought you were a guy. Not that it matters, its' just weird how perceptions of those on the forum are created in our mind when we have no idea who the other person is. Even if you told me you were a she, I probably wouldn't' believe it anyways lol, so like I said, doesn't matter. Talk again.

Posstot replied back "By the way, I knew I should have dressed that kitty in blue, but mistakes happen. ;)

So your real gender is a male and when you were confronted or should I say forced in a corner you had no choice but to admit it or else you would be labeled as a deceptive liar - So in order to save face you made up this lame excuse that you made a mistake by dressing up the kitty in pink instead of blue, most people might buy that lame excuse but I for one am not buying it because you had plenty of time to correct that error and make it known to others about your true gender as being a male, so instead you let the deception go forward for whatever deceptive intent you had in mind.

Your father Satan the devil would be proud of you.​

And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.​

2 Corinthians 11:14-15

The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much. Luke 16: 10

I could have sworn that I saw Posstot in the 'introduce yourselves' thread, introduce himself and say he was from down under? Anyways, he was making a joke, not expressing some machination of the Devil..........:oops:
 
J

Joe MacTeeg

Guest
Because Posstot's profile picture of cat's hat is not blue, he is being like Satan?... Ok, now I'm laughing 😅

Guys, I think everyone should calm down lol. It's a bit like a mountain out of a molehill going on here 😳 😅
On one of the other threads, I had to leave the Bible quotes, and cite Rodney King......whose beating by the LA Police had sparked the LA riots. "Can't we all just get along?" :rolleyes:
 
S

Searcher

Guest

When I say to someone wicked, ‘Wicked one, you will surely die!’ but you do not speak out to warn the wicked one to change his course, he will die as a wicked man because of his own error, but I will ask his blood back from you. Ezekiel 33:


I'm in the question mode about a lot of proposed Bible interpretation. Some things I used to hold to, I now wait if I don't feel I have enough understanding yet to be more certain. The question about the number 144,000 is one of those. My son just asked me about my thoughts about the number the other day. I told him that I go back and forth on it. That right now I am not sure either way. Some things in the Bible only time will tell for sure. I no longer nail down anything until I'm more sure.....and even then I might use screws in case I need to take the plank back up. Not that I am wishy-washy, but I'd rather be "not sure" than dogmatic and wrong.

Ray Franz's second book, In Search of Christian Freedom, changed my approach, in a quite refreshing way. He was the type of man that would welcome into his home, even say, a Trinitarian; as long as he was a respectful person who dignified others with the right to be where they are presently at in their Christian understanding and growth. One could respectfully discuss God's Word together. If they were of a nature to want you to believe as they do, in one sitting, or burn in Hell forever; well, people like that would not be good company......

As a JW, over the years, I met a few people with a good attitude like that; although they disagreed with my beliefs as a JW. I was welcomed into the home of one Trinitarian for repeated good conversations over a period of time. Another man, a Seventh Day Adventist, was of the same nature. I would sit at his diningroom table and we would discuss different Bible topics. On the other hand, I had a Seventh Day Adventist next-door neighbor who was literally demonized, and I had to say "hello" and keep moving to avoid a conversation. Same with many Trinitarians I met. They would have me burning in Hell if they could not convert me in one conversation......

I say all of this, in that we have to allow each other personal space and time to grow in Biblical understanding. Jehovah himself dignifies us in that way.....and Jesus realized that there were many things his followers were not ready for yet.........
I enjoyed your comment so very much. This is precisely how I feel and the conclusion I have come to recently. I've, as of late, had so many good conversations with a wide variety of Christians. Some who believed in the Trinity as well, but we were openly discussing and there were no hard feelings. Only true respect and happiness in the conversations. And we all had one common ground that united us; our faith in Jesus' sacrifice. From there, we had lots to discuss!
Of course, there may always be some that are mad unless you're always in 100% agreement on all things, but that's fine; best to just go about your own business and continue on, as you said.

I agree as well that there are things we just won't fully understand. That's how I feel too; we will all have partial understanding until everything is completed. It's fun to discuss, but I'm not married to all the details because, as you said, we can't quite nail it all down yet :)
 
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P

Posstot

Guest
Ok, so this is starting to sink in. I can have empathy for those that take offence to these ideas. If I hadn’t already been focused on figuring out the Bible by itself, I feel like this would be really hard to accept. The WT publications really only give snippets of scriptures rather than full context so it’s easy to think you’re getting a full meal when it’s only finger food. But from my focused reading, I know that there’s a lot in there that I hadn’t picked up before. Searcher’s similar experience shows me I’m not crazy lol.

So from that foundation, I know that the things you are bringing out from the scriptures do have a basis. I feel like Apollos might have when Aquila helped him to a greater understanding. So thank you for that.

When reading through Rom 8, I came across something that you might have greater insight on, as well. In vs 23, Paul talks about how they already have the firstfruits of the Spirit but are waiting eagerly for their “adoption to sonship” (NIV) Are the Anointed not truly considered sons until they are sealed? Are their baptisms of water and spirit just a token of their calling? Do they only truly know if they’ve been chosen in the time period of Rev 7? I feel like I’ve read other scriptures that indicate that as well …I guess Paul was baptized and Anointed by Spirit when he said that he didn’t feel like he had yet laid hold on it. Again any insight would be appreciated. I guess these questions actually do fit this thread better than my previous ones😅

Also …you’ve said (or maybe RR144) that if you reach out for the upward call but are not chosen, you’ve forfeited your chance at an earthly inheritance. What is the scriptural backing for that? In the spirit of “many are called but few chosen”, is the only outcome for those not chosen, everlasting death? I imagine that plenty throughout the centuries would have listened to their churches and partaken of “Christ’s body” but not have been chosen. Are they doomed to destruction because they weren’t chosen but they chose to pursue the call? I know that obviously only Jehovah really knows and as you brought out he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. But I was wondering if there are specific scriptures that indicate or contraindicate that idea.

Yes, waiting for the adoption as sons while already adopted, seems like a bit of a contradiction, but this tension between what is already reality in Christ - the amen of His 'it has been accomplished' on the torture stake - and the still awaited coming home at the release from this body, when Jesus returns for the pick up, is reflected also in other texts.

For instance, 1 Jno 5:11,12 has: 'God gave us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son; he that has the Son [by being born into Him of the Father], has this life' - not, 'will get it when Christ returns,' but, 'has it right now' - because the anointed give up not only their present imperfect life, but the eternal perfect life they enjoy right now here on earth, which Jesus repurchased for them, although the transfer of their spiritual life into their spirit body still has to await His return.

The reality of this state of affairs can be seen, for instance, in Heb 10:1-3, where someone truly anointed, in their incorporated state in Christ, does not have consciousness of sins anymore, because of the perfection of their conscience brought about by their baptism into His death. Col 2:10-12

Throughout time, a lot of people have given their lives for noble causes, but only those few of the 'little flock' called by God, have given up their glorious everlasting life as children of God, which they enjoy now in their fully reconciled state here on earth, just as Jesus their Forerunner also did, because He had to become first in all things pertaining to them. Col 1:18; Ro 8:21

As to any 'final sealing:' there is simply no backing out or undoing of the unique enlightenment and partaking of Holy Spirit that has happened; there is only Heaven or bust, unless someone was mistaken about their anointing, which would not be God's fault, because of the abundant Scriptural evidence against which anyone can gauge their personal experience, if honest. Heb 6:4-6

As to 'reaching out,' and, 'many are called, but few are chosen,' I think that people read more into these true sayings than is warranted, if compared with other texts to balance them out, because the purpose seems to focus on getting people to put faith in Jehovah by means of His promises, rather than some cut-throat competition, like some people wrongly read into Jesus' words in Mat 11:12, where the kingdom is 'seized' by those 'pressing forward,' as if He were looking for pushy people who elbow others out of the way, like the Pharisees were wont to do with their front seats at the synagogue.

As to the difference between 'calling' and 'choosing:' when it comes to the anointing the terms seem to be used synonymous, for there are no stages to it, just like a woman cannot be a bit pregnant. Ro 8:30

So, for instance, there was no 'reaching out' by Aaron in competition with other Levites to see who wanted the job of High Priest more, nor where Aaron and a few of his fellow tribesmen initially 'called,' from among whom Jehovah then 'chose' Aaron for the top job, but it simply says: "A man takes this honor, not of his own accord, but only when he is called by God, just as Aaron also was," where calling equates to choosing. Heb 5:4

'Many are called' simply means that Jesus died for every man's sin, all of whom are therefore called to repent and accept life on God's terms by accepting Him.

So perhaps the difference between called and chosen is the rejection of the call by the person not appreciating it, but it would be hard to imagine that this would happen after someone is anointed.
 
P

Posstot

Guest
This is a re-posting of a comment I made a few pages before; it is in relation to Kevin charging me with hiding or misrepresenting my sex, which is an outright lie;

QUOTE Kevin:
"Posstot replied back "By the way, I knew I should have dressed that kitty in blue, but mistakes happen. ;)


Kevin, do you know what this emoji ;) means?

It means 'tongue in cheek.'

I chose my picture because I liked it, and it didn't occur to me, or wasn't on my mind at the time, that some people might draw a conclusion about the sex of the poster from it, which I consider irrelevant, since I don't perceive this to be a dating site - 'e-watchman's list,' anyone? ;) - because truth, which is what I imagine we are all here for, does not have sex or gender expression, although in the Hebrew one never knows. ;)

I am not a professional in the field of psychology, but I think you would benefit from an increased sense of humor. ;)

While truth itself is not funny, us failed humans grappling with it often is. ;)
 
P

Posstot

Guest
I'm so sorry if you thought I implied anything at all. I actually was not trying to imply anything about you in any way! Forgive me if it came across this way.

I had a friend recently tell me that since Jesus was talking to the anointed, as you mentioned in your previous post (that we should remember Jesus was talking to the beginning of the 144 000 and not to others), that those Greek Scriptures are written primarily for said anointed. And that suddenly struck me personally as problematic. That's the only reason I asked for your opinion on who the Greek Scriptures were written for, not because I was trying to imply anything about you.

As for saying that I think millions, or even billions, could have a fulfilling job in heaven, was also not meant to imply anything about you; it was just my opinion. If you would prefer not to discuss my last question, on whether the number is literal or symbolic, that's fine too. Some people are not ready to discuss certain questions, and I completely respect that, and I appreciate your time. Have a nice afternoon!

Also, I'd like to mention that while I didn't imply anything about you personally, you certainly did imply things about me personally. ;)
Well actually you just directly stated it; that I'm not looking for truth and only want the answers I want. And that is a very untrue charge!


A certain type of people are uncomfortable with not knowing; but ambiguity can only be resolved by faith - and 'in good faith' - which produces righteousness. Those who impute bad motive to you are just projecting their own insecurity and self doubt onto you, which, while good for entertainment purposes, is actually not productive for the person accusing you, who instead should confront and resolve the misgivings and conflict within themselves. They should go and see a psychiatrist; I know a good one, I think His name was Jesus, and I am not getting any commission out of this referral. ;)
 

Mattress

New member
I’m sorry Shoshana if you feel that way, that’s not what is intended, I assure you. I realize that everyone is at different stages in what beliefs they are willing to put under the microscope, so to speak. That’s completely fine, we all go at our own pace and stumbling others is truly not the goal.

But there are some of us that are at the stage where we are comfortable, actually eager, to really put even deeply held beliefs to a rigorous scriptural test to see if they hold up. To us, it is essential that we do so, so that we can have utmost confidence in that of which we have faith. Solid growth requires thorough tilling of the soil before the plants will truly thrive. But everyone grows in different ways. Some of us need to challenge our current beliefs to stimulate growth. Others need a more gentle process.

In all of Posstot’s responses to me I have never felt that he was trying to diminish anyone’s worth to Jehovah. Rather to the contrary, in response to some of my questions that were similar to yours, he assured me by use of the scriptures that our worst case scenarios are not true. And as he points out several times, we are using the term Christian in a very strict context. But all the ones that lived before Christ with an earthly hope were not worried in the least that they were not called by the term Christian. I had to really sit and think about that but now I’m ok with it. Sometimes we get attached to ideas because it’s been ingrained in us but may not fully portray accurately the real truth from the scriptures. It‘s the nuances that we are exploring. And don’t feel like you have to participate if you’re not ready to. It’s like exercise …don’t kill yourself from the get go. You’ll just get discouraged and want to quit. We would never want that to happen. But some of us do need to dig deep …perhaps deeper than some may be comfortable with.

It is interesting that the Society does teach, albeit not as openly as previously, that Jesus is only the mediator for the Anointed and not for the Other Sheep. That‘s why the Other Sheep supposedly have to be so dependent on the GB because it’s only by hanging onto their coattails that we have any chance of salvation. They use the idea of how we treat Christ’s brothers for their evidence of that. However, in that same passage, it’s evident that neither the sheep nor the goats know for sure who Christ’s brothers are. Otherwise, the goats would’ve treated the Anointed well just to get the reward rather than being genuinely loving.

So when I realized this, it stimulated all kinds of questions in me. Hence I’ve been searching for the real answers to my questions. Because like you it doesn’t feel right that we are not as dependent on Jesus as we thought (according to the organization) However, I found 1Tim 2:1-6 very comforting. It does show that indeed Jesus is the mediator between God and men, not just the Anointed. But I had to go through that work. And rather it was the organization that was stumbling me. But how satisfied I was when I could prove that to myself directly from the scriptures. But as Peter states there are many things in the Bible that are hard to understand.

So I enjoy asking Posstot to point me in a direction since he is very adept at knowing where a lot of scriptures are and how they relate. Then I go and check out his references and deeply consider whether what he’s telling me lines up in context and with what I already know. That’s really what the Boroeans did. But as I said, not everyone’s ready to put their long held cherished beliefs to the ultimate test. It’s ok, go at your pace and research for the questions that burn in your heart to be answered.

I guess it’s just that on a forum many questions are posed that we may not have thought of or that we don’t really care to have answered at this time. But please respect those that may be at a different stage in their progress than you. Please don’t respond as if we are faithless and apostate for wanting to get to the very bottom of a matter. We are deeply searching because we want to be sure of our faith and that we are doing our utmost to serve Jehovah and Jesus with accurate truth. We were not allowed to do this in the environment of our Kingdom Halls. Please don’t try to impose similar restraints here that are reminiscent of the Jewish Christians trying to impose the Law‘s restrictions on the Gentiles. It’s just so nice to have the freedom to explore, ask questions and even God forbid, do a little debating that we couldn’t do before. “For such freedom, God set us free.” (Gal 5:1)

May Jehovah bless your personal search!💐😘💐

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I found many things in your writings which I feel the same. It can be quite hard for some people to accept the ideas which indicate that they are not considered as important as anointed ones in NT.


We don't say we are loved by God as same as Jesus is loved by God. I think God had much more love for Jesus than any other angels too. I don't want to apply the 'everyone is equally loved and equally important' kind of thought on this matter.

Jesus was firstborn and faithful upon death. He is being loved more than us for many other reasons. We can easily accept that. But what about the anointed ones? They are the first fruit from mankind. Are they chosen because Jehovah loved them more than the rest of mankind?


It seems Jehovah keeps his loved ones close. Jehovah adopted them as sons even when they still are humans. And promised them by using the holy spirit that he will bring them to the house in heaven where Jesus is. They will see the face of Jehovah which is impossible for the flesh and blood. We know the answer to the question.


We humans, of course, have emotions. But, our emotions should not alter the truth. We are easily controlled by biases when we try to figure out something. It seems it is somewhat almost impossible to abandon our former mindset or way of thinking unless we try really hard not to fall into a trap of bias. This is why we say people believe what they want to believe.


Recent WT publications are focused on gathering the great crowd and applying most of the scriptures to them not explaining the true meaning which is related to anointed ones. I agree that this can cause many problems. Without insightful study, it can falsely be believed those scriptures are directly applied to the great crowd. But we need to remember many of the applications are expanded applications for a better understanding of the great crowd.


Even Jehovah may love Jesus or angels or anointed ones more than us, it doesn't mean that we are not loved. When we try to seek the truth and apply principles in our lives, we surely can expect love from God. But we cannot ask our God to love us equally as Jesus, angels, anointed ones are loved. It is his call. I hope people don't get hurt when they are on a journey of seeking the truth. This journey is not just full of excitement and joy. It can be somewhat painful for some people to accept certain things.

And I want to point out about 1Tim 2:1-6. I'm happy that you got comfort from the scripture but it seems there is a misunderstanding. I don't want to hurt you by pointing out a misunderstanding that you believed comforting but I know you are not the kind of person who got hurt by knowing the truth.

In 1 Tim 2:1-6, it is saying 'men'. But it doesn't mean every human being or great crowd. It can be quite sad for some people knowing that un-anointed are not even included in 'men'. But we want to know the truth anyway.

Jesus is a corresponding ransom for all(every human). But he is a mediator only for the new covenant, anointed ones who consist of spiritual Israel. As Moses was a mediator for the old covenant and Israelites. (Gal 3:19) You can find more scriptural evidence on referenced scriptures connected to 1 Tim 2:5,6. It is a solid truth. If Jesus is a mediator for everyone(sounds good though), it can cause many serious problems. I hope you are ok with my little correction.
 
P

Posstot

Guest
It can be somewhat painful for some people to accept certain things.

It certainly was very painful, if not unanticipated, for Jesus to find out that His Father loved righteousness more than Him. Mat 27:46; Is 53:10; Ro 1:17

By the way: interesting comments and perspectives; I totally agree.
 

Manoah

Member
I think that the privilege is entirely due to undeserved kindness and according to the good pleasure of Jehovah's will, not because of any works or passing of tests, so that no one can boast outside of Him.

Their privilege is for the purpose of serving Jehovah as duly qualified agents to bless those on the earth and represent Him before them, and them before Him, under the Headship of Jesus.

The immortality, among other things, serves the purpose of total independence from Jehovah when rendering decisions affecting people on earth, without any bias or strings attaching.

Jehovah trusts them because He revealed His trustworthiness to them in Christ Jesus, His death and resurrection on their behalf.

I guess, no matter what partial reasons and explanations we can extract from Scripture, it ultimately is just the indescribable free gift of God requiring eternity to ponder.
And who has appointed you judge?

The whole question is fascinating. Early on there was this:

"So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”" (Acts 1:6) Then this:

"Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old." (Acts 3:21)

All the understanding of the earliest Christians was earth-centric. Why would it be any different? Apparently, after the holy spirit was poured out at Pentecost, they began to get some idea of a heavenly call to reign as joint heirs? As subsequent Bible letters gradually reveal. But then, the Revelation seems to give the big earth-centric picture, showing both hopes as history culminates. After all, it has always been all about the earth. This is where the rebellion started, and will end.

As off track as so much of the Wt has been for almost 150 years, there does seem to be the fact that there are genuine Christians manifesting with an earthly hope, as we near the end. I come back to Rev. 7. The "great crowd" are clearly Christians, having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, and they cry out that they owe their salvation to him. They "come out" of the great tribulation, and are guided by Christ to life.

This seems to be where I fit. I have experienced no calling to reign with Christ in heaven, yet experience being a full Christian. I can pray "Our Father" and experience Christ as the only name under heaven by which we must be saved. I can pray, "Abba, Father."

One thing does puzzle me. Why would Christians only experiencing the test of our present life, instantly attain immortality, while those Christians coming off victorious over the wild beast and surviving on earth, need 1,000 years more, and a final test after Satan is let loose, and then receive everlasting life as a mortal human? I'm not complaining, just trying to grasp how such a short trial would give Jehovah the confidence to grant an "indestructible life" which even angels don't have? ..... questions to ponder....:rolleyes:
Interesting comments. I've also been thinking about survivors only gaining everlasting life after 1000 yrs.

I looked at Matt 25 on the separating of the sheep from goats, V46 says "these (goats) depart into everlasting cutting off, but the righteous into everlasting life". We know these sheep whom JC has approved will imminently become the Gt Crowd of Armageddon survivors. The verse clearly says the sheep depart into everlasting life. This is the only group of people surviving and they have been tested to the utmost by Satan and with Holy spirit have survived his attacks.

However at the end of the 1000 yrs there are 3 groups. The Gt Crowd, those resurrected & those born into the new world. Only the first group have been fully tested. Those born after Armageddon have never even experienced a world under Satanic influence. So clearly these last two groups would need to prove their loyalty under test. So taken together with Matt 25:46 can we conclude that Armageddon survivors are granted Everlasting life at that point? We will still need to advance to perfection, WT literature has said Physical perfection will advance as we grow toward spiritual perfection.
 
P

Posstot

Guest
So taken together with Matt 25:46 can we conclude that Armageddon survivors are granted Everlasting life at that point?

Good question; it seems unlikely to me that many, if any, of the great tribulation survivors will fall away at the test concluding the 1000 years, as, for that matter, one would also expect from the 'ancient worthies' of old Israel, or other 'righteous' ones among the nations, however rare they may be.

I also expect the percentage of Armageddon survivors to be similar to the percentage of those remaining faithful during the final test at the end of the 1000 years, thereby proving that environment and upbringing has no influence on whether people want to be loyal to Jehovah or not.

Also, at the end of the 1000 years, when the earth is filled, there wont be any more children born, or else these also need to be tested as they grow up, and being born perfect then, would have no means of salvation if they rebelled, and considering the huge percentage of people failing, who wants to morn on an ongoing basis for all eternity the loss of beloved children due to rebellion?

Kind of reminds one of a line in a Hebrew's poem, called Ballad of Hollis Brown: 'There's seven people dead on a South Dakota farm, there's seven people dead on a South Dakota farm - somewhere's in a distance there's seven new people born.'
 
J

Joe MacTeeg

Guest
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I found many things in your writings which I feel the same. It can be quite hard for some people to accept the ideas which indicate that they are not considered as important as anointed ones in NT.


We don't say we are loved by God as same as Jesus is loved by God. I think God had much more love for Jesus than any other angels too. I don't want to apply the 'everyone is equally loved and equally important' kind of thought on this matter.

Jesus was firstborn and faithful upon death. He is being loved more than us for many other reasons. We can easily accept that. But what about the anointed ones? They are the first fruit from mankind. Are they chosen because Jehovah loved them more than the rest of mankind?


It seems Jehovah keeps his loved ones close. Jehovah adopted them as sons even when they still are humans. And promised them by using the holy spirit that he will bring them to the house in heaven where Jesus is. They will see the face of Jehovah which is impossible for the flesh and blood. We know the answer to the question.


We humans, of course, have emotions. But, our emotions should not alter the truth. We are easily controlled by biases when we try to figure out something. It seems it is somewhat almost impossible to abandon our former mindset or way of thinking unless we try really hard not to fall into a trap of bias. This is why we say people believe what they want to believe.


Recent WT publications are focused on gathering the great crowd and applying most of the scriptures to them not explaining the true meaning which is related to anointed ones. I agree that this can cause many problems. Without insightful study, it can falsely be believed those scriptures are directly applied to the great crowd. But we need to remember many of the applications are expanded applications for a better understanding of the great crowd.


Even Jehovah may love Jesus or angels or anointed ones more than us, it doesn't mean that we are not loved. When we try to seek the truth and apply principles in our lives, we surely can expect love from God. But we cannot ask our God to love us equally as Jesus, angels, anointed ones are loved. It is his call. I hope people don't get hurt when they are on a journey of seeking the truth. This journey is not just full of excitement and joy. It can be somewhat painful for some people to accept certain things.

And I want to point out about 1Tim 2:1-6. I'm happy that you got comfort from the scripture but it seems there is a misunderstanding. I don't want to hurt you by pointing out a misunderstanding that you believed comforting but I know you are not the kind of person who got hurt by knowing the truth.

In 1 Tim 2:1-6, it is saying 'men'. But it doesn't mean every human being or great crowd. It can be quite sad for some people knowing that un-anointed are not even included in 'men'. But we want to know the truth anyway.

Jesus is a corresponding ransom for all(every human). But he is a mediator only for the new covenant, anointed ones who consist of spiritual Israel. As Moses was a mediator for the old covenant and Israelites. (Gal 3:19) You can find more scriptural evidence on referenced scriptures connected to 1 Tim 2:5,6. It is a solid truth. If Jesus is a mediator for everyone(sounds good though), it can cause many serious problems. I hope you are ok with my little correction.
The thing about the use of the word "mediator" at 1 Timothy 2:1-6 is context. I am still tossing this one around. The use of "mediator" in the Book of Hebrews, is clearly in context of the covenant. But at 1 Timothy 2 the context is of "everyone" being able to have opportunity to "be saved" through the "ransom." Paul is not speaking about the "new covenant," but rather salvation available to all people via the ransom.

The Greek word for "mediator" means a "go-between," a "reconciler." The word is not bound by use strictly as in the "go-between" in a covenant. Context determines. Here, the context seems to be the use as a "reconciler" making peace between God and men. The ransom. The ransom by which all men have the opportunity for reconciliation with God. It is the only way. Not another name given by which we must be saved. I don't see Paul discussing the new covenant in this context.

So, I read it as Christ can indeed be called the "mediator" for all mankind, in this context. (That is my present understanding, but I am open to Biblical points I might be overlooking.....)
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
Actually, I think the rebellion started in heaven, since it started with Satan. I always wonder what the fuller back story of that is. I wonder how much trouble had been stirred up in heaven possibly before he really went down and created trouble with Adam and Eve... Other angels, I wonder, did they listen to him even then and then watch what he did with the first human pair?... And then many disobeyed at the time of Noah. He clearly had quite a following going on from the get go. Just my musings lol...
I don't mind people speculating on the above and people can take my input with as much salt as they like and there's nothing here the slightest but critical or contentious simply thinking out loud but I feel I must warn people those ideas of heavenly rebellion before Adam's fall originated from the Sethian tradition that were partially adopted by branches of gnosticism, some Christian persuasions and Islam. John Milton kind of tweaked the idea of the books of Adam and Eve from the rebellion of some angels refusing to worship Adam to Jesus instead.

I do love Milton mind you most of his beliefs aligned with witnesses and his paradise regained book was good I feel partly do to the cultural influence of paradise lost that there is a tendency to have an elevated view of the devil's original position and popularity among the angelic hosts so many think he was the first or highest angel after Jesus for some reason I think the adversary was a cherub possibly also a seraph in the garden his original position under Gabriel's authority (as Gabriel is described in Enoch as over paradise and the cherubs and seraphs) the pre flood fallen angels appear to have initially assisted humanity in response to people calling on Jehovah but the leader of that group expressed the desire to get involved with the women and whether out of shared improper desires or "were in this together" conradery they joined him. It didn't have much to do with Satan initially but doubtless he was very pleased by the chaos and wickedness and going by some texts the spirit creature aspect of the hybrid offsprings biology became Satan's minions after there bodies died in the flood.

The one scenario where I could imagine more than a couple hundred fallen angels aligned with Satan is if the revealing of the sacred secret the elevation of the humans making up the bride of Christ to an immortal position above the angels triggers/ed a prideful response and defection of some a hypothetical third wave of defection (second the post Babel princes)

Personally while the devil is certainly as an enemy of Jehovah God I see him more as Jesus nemesis than a grand arch foe of the omnipotent creator from Jehovah's pov he's probably more of an anticipated speed bump in the grand design.
 

Mattress

New member
The thing about the use of the word "mediator" at 1 Timothy 2:1-6 is context. I am still tossing this one around. The use of "mediator" in the Book of Hebrews, is clearly in context of the covenant. But at 1 Timothy 2 the context is of "everyone" being able to have opportunity to "be saved" through the "ransom." Paul is not speaking about the "new covenant," but rather salvation available to all people via the ransom.

The Greek word for "mediator" means a "go-between," a "reconciler." The word is not bound by use strictly as in the "go-between" in a covenant. Context determines. Here, the context seems to be the use as a "reconciler" making peace between God and men. The ransom. The ransom by which all men have the opportunity for reconciliation with God. It is the only way. Not another name given by which we must be saved. I don't see Paul discussing the new covenant in this context.

So, I read it as Christ can indeed be called the "mediator" for all mankind, in this context. (That is my present understanding, but I am open to Biblical points I might be overlooking.....)
Hi, Joe
Thanks for your comment. It is an interesting interpretation.
Have you checked all the other scriptures which have μεσίτης(mediator)?

Gal 3:19,20; Heb 8:6, 9:15, 12:24

μεσίτης(mediator) was not used in the broad sense. It refers to Christ as legal Mediator of the new covenant. This word is only used in a restricted way in the Bible. Paul used this word 5 times already in the meaning of legal Mediator in his letters. Timothy must have understood it as a legal term related to the new covenant when he got the letter. (1 Tim 2:5,6)

And Paul was an apostle to the nations. (Rom 11:13) When he explained something like 'every', 'all', 'men' etc, those often meant Jews and Greeks(Gentiles). Not necessarily every human being on the earth. One of his missions was to explain that God's mercy(anointing) was expanded to those who were not Jews.

Considering the context, 'men' and 'all' can mean Jews and Gentiles.

1 Ti 2:5,6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men [Jews and Gentiles], a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all [Jews and Gentiles] —this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

Paul is emphasizing both are accepted in the new covenant and redeemed by Jesus.
Does it make sense to you?

If you don't mind I want to leave a link to Questions from readers. This article covers all of your comments.


Please let me know if you still need some more extra explanation.
 
J

Joe MacTeeg

Guest
Hi, Joe
Thanks for your comment. It is an interesting interpretation.
Have you checked all the other scriptures which have μεσίτης(mediator)?

Gal 3:19,20; Heb 8:6, 9:15, 12:24

μεσίτης(mediator) was not used in the broad sense. It refers to Christ as legal Mediator of the new covenant. This word is only used in a restricted way in the Bible. Paul used this word 5 times already in the meaning of legal Mediator in his letters. Timothy must have understood it as a legal term related to the new covenant when he got the letter. (1 Tim 2:5,6)

And Paul was an apostle to the nations. (Rom 11:13) When he explained something like 'every', 'all', 'men' etc, those often meant Jews and Greeks(Gentiles). Not necessarily every human being on the earth. One of his missions was to explain that God's mercy(anointing) was expanded to those who were not Jews.

Considering the context, 'men' and 'all' can mean Jews and Gentiles.

1 Ti 2:5,6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men [Jews and Gentiles], a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all [Jews and Gentiles] —this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

Paul is emphasizing both are accepted in the new covenant and redeemed by Jesus.
Does it make sense to you?

If you don't mind I want to leave a link to Questions from readers. This article covers all of your comments.


Please let me know if you still need some more extra explanation.
Thank you. I appreciate your points, and the good reference.

To be sure though, it rests on a number of assumptions. One being that the Bible only uses the word in a restricted sense. It is only found in three contexts. Galatians and Hebrews have a "covenant" context. 1Timothy 2 is not discussing covenants. The context seems (to me) to allow for the use of the word's meaning of "reconciler." Seems reasonable as Paul is in context speaking about offering prayers on behalf of all men. (verse 1 and 8 sandwiching the verses in discussion.)

Paul is discussing the ransom. (Which applies to all men.) The sentence bridges two verses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all."

Notice Paul says the "man" Christ Jesus. Right after he said Jesus was the mediator for "men." "Ransom" means "corresponding price." So, Paul seems to be emphasizing the fact it takes a "corresponding man" as a "reconciler" to make peace between God and men.

So, I see both interpretations as possible. The JW Questions from readers, as well as simply letting the passage stand in context, without assuming there is only one allowable use for the Greek term in the Bible. The more important point is that Jesus is the ransom for all mankind. As Jesus said in conversation with Nicodemus: "The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have everlasting life. For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him." (John 3:14-17)
 
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