J
Joe MacTeeg
Guest
And who has appointed you judge?
If you claim to be Anointed. How do you know? Really How?
TravellinRox
Well-known member
Ok, so this is starting to sink in. I can have empathy for those that take offence to these ideas. If I hadn’t already been focused on figuring out the Bible by itself, I feel like this would be really hard to accept. The WT publications really only give snippets of scriptures rather than full context so it’s easy to think you’re getting a full meal when it’s only finger food. But from my focused reading, I know that there’s a lot in there that I hadn’t picked up before. Searcher’s similar experience shows me I’m not crazy lol.
So from that foundation, I know that the things you are bringing out from the scriptures do have a basis. I feel like Apollos might have when Aquila helped him to a greater understanding. So thank you for that.
When reading through Rom 8, I came across something that you might have greater insight on, as well. In vs 23, Paul talks about how they already have the firstfruits of the Spirit but are waiting eagerly for their “adoption to sonship” (NIV) Are the Anointed not truly considered sons until they are sealed? Are their baptisms of water and spirit just a token of their calling? Do they only truly know if they’ve been chosen in the time period of Rev 7? I feel like I’ve read other scriptures that indicate that as well …I guess Paul was baptized and Anointed by Spirit when he said that he didn’t feel like he had yet laid hold on it. Again any insight would be appreciated. I guess these questions actually do fit this thread better than my previous ones
Also …you’ve said (or maybe RR144) that if you reach out for the upward call but are not chosen, you’ve forfeited your chance at an earthly inheritance. What is the scriptural backing for that? In the spirit of “many are called but few chosen”, is the only outcome for those not chosen, everlasting death? I imagine that plenty throughout the centuries would have listened to their churches and partaken of “Christ’s body” but not have been chosen. Are they doomed to destruction because they weren’t chosen but they chose to pursue the call? I know that obviously only Jehovah really knows and as you brought out he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. But I was wondering if there are specific scriptures that indicate or contraindicate that idea.
TravellinRox
Well-known member
That’s another thing that really started to stand out for me after I started focusing on just the Bible …that feeling that we weren’t putting enough emphasis on Jesus and that the GB were wittingly or unwittingly usurping his place. The “in Jesus’ name” at the end of my prayers became so much more meaningful to me!Hey! Thanks for your response, I appreciate your words. I just want to have open, respectful dialogue.
While I see where you're coming for, and respect that you feel it has no baring on your relationship with Jehovah, I feel the issue has a great bearing on my relationship with Him now that I have been considering it for about a year. It has completely changed me, and given me more faith than I have ever had, and deeper love for Him and His Son, too. I know I don't have perfect understanding - far from it - but I want to know the deeper things, and the only way I can do so is by continuous effort and constant testing and meditating.
The other thing we maybe differ on, is that I do want to - not tear down - but examine carefully every belief in the belief system; that way I can know what is solid and what needs to be thrown away. I think the base line problem, I discovered personally, was not even that the GB betrayed the trust we all had in them... but the realization that I had such trust in men at all!! That's not where my trust or faith should reside. That should be placed in Jesus and God, not any person.
So, I guess whether the GB got some things right, or Russell did, or anyone did, is neither here nor there for me at this point. I appreciate learning from others - I want to do so - but I'm not going to follow after anyone but Jesus. I just want to know what the scriptures say, and do my best to follow them because that's the personal responsibility I have before God!
Thank you for your kindest words! And I send my love and prayers for you too!! I hope you have a really enjoyable day
TravellinRox
Well-known member
I’m sorry Shoshana if you feel that way, that’s not what is intended, I assure you. I realize that everyone is at different stages in what beliefs they are willing to put under the microscope, so to speak. That’s completely fine, we all go at our own pace and stumbling others is truly not the goal.
But there are some of us that are at the stage where we are comfortable, actually eager, to really put even deeply held beliefs to a rigorous scriptural test to see if they hold up. To us, it is essential that we do so, so that we can have utmost confidence in that of which we have faith. Solid growth requires thorough tilling of the soil before the plants will truly thrive. But everyone grows in different ways. Some of us need to challenge our current beliefs to stimulate growth. Others need a more gentle process.
In all of Posstot’s responses to me I have never felt that he was trying to diminish anyone’s worth to Jehovah. Rather to the contrary, in response to some of my questions that were similar to yours, he assured me by use of the scriptures that our worst case scenarios are not true. And as he points out several times, we are using the term Christian in a very strict context. But all the ones that lived before Christ with an earthly hope were not worried in the least that they were not called by the term Christian. I had to really sit and think about that but now I’m ok with it. Sometimes we get attached to ideas because it’s been ingrained in us but may not fully portray accurately the real truth from the scriptures. It‘s the nuances that we are exploring. And don’t feel like you have to participate if you’re not ready to. It’s like exercise …don’t kill yourself from the get go. You’ll just get discouraged and want to quit. We would never want that to happen. But some of us do need to dig deep …perhaps deeper than some may be comfortable with.
It is interesting that the Society does teach, albeit not as openly as previously, that Jesus is only the mediator for the Anointed and not for the Other Sheep. That‘s why the Other Sheep supposedly have to be so dependent on the GB because it’s only by hanging onto their coattails that we have any chance of salvation. They use the idea of how we treat Christ’s brothers for their evidence of that. However, in that same passage, it’s evident that neither the sheep nor the goats know for sure who Christ’s brothers are. Otherwise, the goats would’ve treated the Anointed well just to get the reward rather than being genuinely loving.
So when I realized this, it stimulated all kinds of questions in me. Hence I’ve been searching for the real answers to my questions. Because like you it doesn’t feel right that we are not as dependent on Jesus as we thought (according to the organization) However, I found 1Tim 2:1-6 very comforting. It does show that indeed Jesus is the mediator between God and men, not just the Anointed. But I had to go through that work. And rather it was the organization that was stumbling me. But how satisfied I was when I could prove that to myself directly from the scriptures. But as Peter states there are many things in the Bible that are hard to understand.
So I enjoy asking Posstot to point me in a direction since he is very adept at knowing where a lot of scriptures are and how they relate. Then I go and check out his references and deeply consider whether what he’s telling me lines up in context and with what I already know. That’s really what the Boroeans did. But as I said, not everyone’s ready to put their long held cherished beliefs to the ultimate test. It’s ok, go at your pace and research for the questions that burn in your heart to be answered.
I guess it’s just that on a forum many questions are posed that we may not have thought of or that we don’t really care to have answered at this time. But please respect those that may be at a different stage in their progress than you. Please don’t respond as if we are faithless and apostate for wanting to get to the very bottom of a matter. We are deeply searching because we want to be sure of our faith and that we are doing our utmost to serve Jehovah and Jesus with accurate truth. We were not allowed to do this in the environment of our Kingdom Halls. Please don’t try to impose similar restraints here that are reminiscent of the Jewish Christians trying to impose the Law‘s restrictions on the Gentiles. It’s just so nice to have the freedom to explore, ask questions and even God forbid, do a little debating that we couldn’t do before. “For such freedom, God set us free.” (Gal 5:1)
May Jehovah bless your personal search!
Last edited:
Bklyn Kevin
Well-known member
It's not a judgment, it's an observation based on judas iscariot wicked ways and we know what happened to him due to his practicing what was wicked and if others practice such wickedness you can rest assured that they will suffer the same fate.
Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come. Read more - Warning examples from Israel’s history (1-13)> https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/1-corinthians/10/#v46010001-v46010013
TravellinRox
Well-known member
I find it super interesting that they are mostly in Revelation. I have noticed that as well. I mentioned to Posstot that perhaps that’s because it‘s in the time period covered by Revelation that the earthly group makes a recognizable appearance? Whereas prior to that, those with an earthly hope were not especially noticeable since they descended into the grave as all humankind have? Just a possible thought
S
Searcher
Guest
I agree with what you said; Jehovah made the earth to be inhabited and it absolutely will be. However, I have not quite clearly seen scriptures directed to Jesus' followers that their hope was on Earth. Throughout the NT it talks about only the heavenly hope for anyone in union with Christ! For just one example, "By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep... We who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." (1 Thess 4:13-18)
Do you know of some scriptures in the NT I could look at to show a clear differentiation between different Christians in the congregation? I'm on a journey here too
Last edited by a moderator:
S
Searcher
Guest
I must agree with this so wholeheartedly. Jesus has taken on a whole special meaning and place in my heart to me! I really think the emphasis is quite swayed away from him. And I also agree with your comment that we have gotten a lot of finger foods. When you read whole passages, the context I see has been left out... So I'm so glad to be reading the Bible more carefully!! You ask great questions!! I'm loving this thread.That’s another thing that really started to stand out for me after I started focusing on just the Bible …that feeling that we weren’t putting enough emphasis on Jesus and that the GB were wittingly or unwittingly usurping his place. The “in Jesus’ name” at the end of my prayers became so much more meaningful to me!
S
Searcher
Guest
Actually, I think the rebellion started in heaven, since it started with Satan. I always wonder what the fuller back story of that is. I wonder how much trouble had been stirred up in heaven possibly before he really went down and created trouble with Adam and Eve... Other angels, I wonder, did they listen to him even then and then watch what he did with the first human pair?... And then many disobeyed at the time of Noah. He clearly had quite a following going on from the get go. Just my musings lol...
SusanB
Well-known member
Well for me, this is the problem of saying the Greek scriptures are the NT. The bible is a whole and so the story line does not change but it is added to and refined and explained. I don’t know how to say it any other way. Being a christian is being a “student” of Christ. So, I think you can be a student aka disciple and not have the heavenly hope. Just as we do our best to imitate our heavenly Father but we will never be God.I agree with what you said; Jehovah made the earth to be inhabited and it absolutely will be. However, I have not quite clearly seen scriptures directed to Jesus' followers that their hope was on Earth. Throughout the NT it talks about only the heavenly hope for anyone in union with Christ! For just one example, "By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep... We who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." (1 Thess 4:13-18)
Do you know of some scriptures in the NT I could look at to show a clear differentiation between different Christians in the congregation? I'm on a journey here too
So, we can agree that the bible clearly states that the earth will be inhabited by obedient humans, correct? Then how many “rulers” would one need in heaven to rule over the earth? I understand that you are on a journey but I think it comes down to logically reasoning along with the scriptures that many on the forum have already shared. If you agree that earth will be inhabited by humans and Jesus followers, all or some will go to heaven, then I’m not sure what you are asking. Are you thinking that the above scripture in 1 Thess 4:13-18 means millions will be resurrected to heaven because they are Jesus’ followers? I just don’t see that either. It doesn’t make sense to me.
What comes to my mind is that when Jesus said the mustard seed was the “tiniest” of all seeds did he mean that literally there was no small seed existing? Well no because there are smaller seeds, but in practical terms to what his listeners were familiar with it was known as the smallest seed. It wasn’t a botanical lesson, but it was a lesson on God’s Kingdom. So, in examining the “trees” so to speak, we must not lose sight of the forest.
If we see the original purpose for humans and then realize that at the time Jesus was on earth, he was speaking to a relatively small number of humans who were the beginning of the 144,000, then we should still not lose sight of the fact that most people will in fact have the earthly hope, as it was from the beginning. That only a limited number will go to heaven because their position will be as rulers and they must ruler over someone. So, even if our hope is to live forever on earth and Jesus is our King, our exemplar and more, should we not be his students aka disciples?
I guess I don’t see the logic of your question and so this will probably be the last comment that I write unless you explain your question in a way that I feel I can contribute something to it.
Last edited:
TravellinRox
Well-known member
Seems Jesus had some counsel for those who were tempted to cast harsh criticisms on others and assume that they know that the motivations of others are evil:
“You heard that it was said to those of ancient times: ‘You must not murder, but whoever commits a murder will be accountable to the court of justice.’ However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; and whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge·henʹna.” (Matt 5:21-22)
It’s a scripture that should easily come to mind since it’s from the famous Sermon on the Mount.
Jas 2:13 also has a sobering message to all with potential Pharisaic tendencies…
“For the one who does not practice mercy will have his judgment without mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.”
Last edited:
S
Searcher
Guest
Thanks for your point of view. I understand the Bible is a whole, for sure. But things really did change after Christ's arrival on Earth; the Law was no longer needed and the hope he gave to his disciples was extended to the others in different nations. So while it's a whole thought, it doesn't mean there was a big change when there was a big fulfilment. But if you prefer not to call the Greek scriptures the NT, that's fine, I'll refer to them as the Greek scriptures in this post so that we are on the same page.
We definitely agree the Bible clearly states many will reside on the Earth. I'm trying to have an open mind while I read the scriptures though. The scripture I quoted does say that those who died in union with him and those who are faithful on the Earth that remain, will be resurrected or taken up respectively, to be with the Lord forever. If that implies millions, I don't see why that's a problem personally. There are myriads of angels. That's a lot. But somehow, they must all have a fulfilling job to do! So I don't see why, surely, millions or even billions or even myriads of other ones couldn't have a place given to them by God... It reminds me of John 14:3 where Jesus says he will go and "prepare a place for you." There are many rooms in his Father's house, he says. It's a nice thought to me now, a really beautiful one...
I think maybe, at the heart of it... where we differ... is where you say, "Jesus was speaking to a relatively small number of humans who were the beginning of the 144 000"... This is where I begin to diverge from your line of thought, I think. As soon as we start to think, Jesus was only talking to those people, I think what naturally follows is the thought that, "This is not written for ME." May I ask you if you think that the Greek Scriptures were primarily written for those that are considering themselves anointed?
If the group that is anointed is so small, Jesus is in effect, not speaking to the rest of everyone else; he's only speaking to small group of people who would have to stand in between us and him because they must have a much deeper insight. But I've come to the conclusion that I don't think that can be so. Or else, this is how we get into the mess we are in currently (in my own humble opinion), with sects and frustrations over the Governing Body giving problematic information that people agree with, or even act on, without much thought or meditation (not saying you personally did that, but I know I did in times past). So now when I read, I don't think, "Well here Jesus is just speaking to anointed ones and it's not really something that applies to me." I see this as application to the readers themselves. And, indeed, Revelation confirms that to me lately because it repeatedly says, "Let the reader have discernment." Not, let the anointed have discernment and then explain it to you. Not, let the Governing Body have discernment and explain it to you. Not even let Robert King have discernment and explain it to you. It's about each individual.
The scriptures, I believe now, were written for all of us individually, but it's up to us how much we spend in time to understand; and that we shouldn't just leave it up to others to explain everything to us (although, of course, this sort of dialogue and sharpening iron against iron is a very different thing and also a right thing to do, so thank you for engaging
)... I'd like to ask you why you think the 144 000 is a set literal number? So far from what I can tell, I'm very unsure about that now. The scriptures that immediately follow one description of the 144 000 says that there are 12 000 coming from each tribe, which logically sounds to me like that would also have to be literal, since it's part of the same thought. But I don't understand how that could be literal. So it would have to be symbolic, which means the 144 000 would also be symbolic? Let me know what you think, if you do so wish.
SusanB
Well-known member
And this is where we part ways because you are implying a LOT. I never said nor implied things you are assuming. I appreciate your seeking but I just think you are looking for the answer you want and not what is the actual truth. So, best wishes but I can see this will go nowhere.Thanks for your point of view. I understand the Bible is a whole, for sure. But things really did change after Christ's arrival on Earth; the Law was no longer needed and the hope he gave to his disciples was extended to the others in different nations. So while it's a whole thought, it doesn't mean there was a big change when there was a big fulfilment. But if you prefer not to call the Greek scriptures the NT, that's fine, I'll refer to them as the Greek scriptures in this post so that we are on the same page.
We definitely agree the Bible clearly states many will reside on the Earth. I'm trying to have an open mind while I read the scriptures though. The scripture I quoted does say that those who died in union with him and those who are faithful on the Earth that remain, will be resurrected or taken up respectively, to be with the Lord forever. If that implies millions, I don't see why that's a problem personally. There are myriads of angels. That's a lot. But somehow, they must all have a fulfilling job to do! So I don't see why, surely, millions or even billions or even myriads of other ones couldn't have a place given to them by God... It reminds me of John 14:3 where Jesus says he will go and "prepare a place for you." There are many rooms in his Father's house, he says. It's a nice thought to me now, a really beautiful one...
I think maybe, at the heart of it... where we differ... is where you say, "Jesus was speaking to a relatively small number of humans who were the beginning of the 144 000"... This is where I begin to diverge from your line of thought, I think. As soon as we start to think, Jesus was only talking to those people, I think what naturally follows is the thought that, "This is not written for ME." May I ask you if you think that the Greek Scriptures were primarily written for those that are considering themselves anointed?
If the group that is anointed is so small, Jesus is in effect, not speaking to the rest of everyone else; he's only speaking to small group of people who would have to stand in between us and him because they must have a much deeper insight. But I've come to the conclusion that I don't think that can be so. Or else, this is how we get into the mess we are in currently (in my own humble opinion), with sects and frustrations over the Governing Body giving problematic information that people agree with, or even act on, without much thought or meditation (not saying you personally did that, but I know I did in times past). So now when I read, I don't think, "Well here Jesus is just speaking to anointed ones and it's not really something that applies to me." I see this as application to the readers themselves. And, indeed, Revelation confirms that to me lately because it repeatedly says, "Let the reader have discernment." Not, let the anointed have discernment and then explain it to you. Not, let the Governing Body have discernment and explain it to you. Not even let Robert King have discernment and explain it to you. It's about each individual.
The scriptures, I believe now, were written for all of us individually, but it's up to us how much we spend in time to understand; and that we shouldn't just leave it up to others to explain everything to us (although, of course, this sort of dialogue and sharpening iron against iron is a very different thing and also a right thing to do, so thank you for engaging
I'd like to ask you why you think the 144 000 is a set literal number? So far from what I can tell, I'm very unsure about that now. The scriptures that immediately follow one description of the 144 000 says that there are 12 000 coming from each tribe, which logically sounds to me like that would also have to be literal, since it's part of the same thought. But I don't understand how that could be literal. So it would have to be symbolic, which means the 144 000 would also be symbolic? Let me know what you think, if you do so wish.
S
Searcher
Guest
I'm so sorry if you thought I implied anything at all. I actually was not trying to imply anything about you in any way! Forgive me if it came across this way.
I had a friend recently tell me that since Jesus was talking to the anointed, as you mentioned in your previous post (that we should remember Jesus was talking to the beginning of the 144 000 and not to others), that those Greek Scriptures are written primarily for said anointed. And that suddenly struck me personally as problematic. That's the only reason I asked for your opinion on who the Greek Scriptures were written for, not because I was trying to imply anything about you.
As for saying that I think millions, or even billions, could have a fulfilling job in heaven, was also not meant to imply anything about you; it was just my opinion. If you would prefer not to discuss my last question, on whether the number is literal or symbolic, that's fine too. Some people are not ready to discuss certain questions, and I completely respect that, and I appreciate your time. Have a nice afternoon!
Also, I'd like to mention that while I didn't imply anything about you personally, you certainly did imply things about me personally.
Well actually you just directly stated it; that I'm not looking for truth and only want the answers I want. And that is a very untrue charge!
Last edited by a moderator:
Bklyn Kevin
Well-known member
When I say to someone wicked, ‘Wicked one, you will surely die!’ but you do not speak out to warn the wicked one to change his course, he will die as a wicked man because of his own error, but I will ask his blood back from you. Ezekiel 33:8
Bklyn Kevin
Well-known member
What does it mean if you're being trolled?
Trolling is when someone baits people into having pointless, time-consuming and often aggressive online discussions. It's not OK, and if you experience it, it can leave you feeling upset, angry or distressed, and it can have a significant impact on your wellbeing.
What is trolling and how should you respond to it? - Headspace
TravellinRox
Well-known member
Thank you for that scripture.
Who told Ezekiel to deliver that pointed msg though? Jehovah can read hearts, for sure, but we don’t have that ability. So it’s interesting that Ezekiel gave that msg to those whom Jehovah had personally directed him to say it to. None of us on here can even say that we know Posstot well enough to really know if he deserves the same fate as Judas. And I’m pretty sure Jehovah didn’t personally commission any of us to do so either.
In contrast, to what you feel you have perceived, I feel like I have noticed many expressions of faith in Jehovah and his word issuing out of Posstot. So since we cannot definitively know that Posstot has committed such grievous sins, we would do well to heed the scriptures I’ve mentioned.
Of course, you’re free to decide for yourself but it may be a dangerous path to tread in Jehovah’s eyes. Perhaps I am one who is warning you before you take a false step. But you have to decide for yourself. And remember that its always good to show love and mercy if there is an opportunity to do so. We don’t want to be guilty of choking a fellow slave when we ourselves are guilty of much before Jehovah.
It’s good that you’re zealous but there’s a balance to be had that Jesus himself taught and modelled.
S
Searcher
Guest
Ezekiel was a prophet given the job of stating Jehovah's own words to people. But we are not prophets of Jehovah and have to be careful not to pass judgments.
I merely asked questions I'm legitimately wondering on. (ie, what does it mean for us if we think the Greek Scriptures were written for the direction of the anointed, but not necessarily everyone else? And, if the 144 000 is literal would that not make the 12 000 from each tribe literal?)
I'm sorry you feel open discussions and valid questions are trolling. I have not baited anyone, as Driven actually initiated the conversation with me. I didn't find the conversation pointless, but engaging; I'm very sorry she found it to be pointless. And I don't believe I've been aggressive, although I did find it a bit aggressive to be told by a stranger that I do not want to find any truth. But that's okay, I'm also not offended.
No one should feel pressured into responding to any question I pose if they don't want to, as that's never my intention. Hope you're having a great day!
Bklyn Kevin
Well-known member
As of now I am blocking you because you're nothing but a troll.
S
Searcher
Guest
It seems, my friend, you use the word troll for anyone who does not agree with everything you say! By your own definition of a troll, it's not someone who just simply has a different view.... but oh well.