If Jehovah has an org, why leave?

mts

Well-known member
@Watchman and others have affirmed that Jehovah has an org and it's the JW's. This being mainly becasue orthodox WT doctrine is scripturally sound. Now, there is the point of the 'evil slave & apostasy arising' within the Jah's org (as happened with Israelites) and 'Christ judging the organization' at some point which would trigger significant confusion within the org (see @Watchman's post here). Nonetheless, being that Jah does have an organization, the question is, why leave? If you leave Jah's organization, aren't you saying, you don't believe that he is directing his people through an org? I am trying to comprehend the aspect that yes, he has an organization, with imperfect/fallible members, but it's still under Jah & Jesus's direction; consequently, wouldn't leaving deny this assertion?

Now, I understand and appreciate having a platform that exposes certain wrongdoings, criticism or inconsistencies, etc. (this forum); however, it would seem that @Watchman's confirmation that JW's are in Jah's organization would support why there are PIMO & PIMI's and why it's better to stay-in then leave. :unsure:
 
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I do believe the same thing. Every time there was a people for Jehovah they strayed away. This happened with old Israel and later during Jesus time.
The Bible is very clear this will happen with Jehovah's people in the time of the end as well.
During the time of old Israel even during times of strong corruption there were still faithful people in Israel.
Think about the time of Elijah. in 1 King 19:18 Jehovah told him that there were still 7000 who didn't who didn't bend down to Baal.
When Jerusalem was destroyed withing the captives, there were faithful men as well if we think about Daniel and his companions.
In Jesus time he condemned the religious leaders and cleaned the temple calling it the house of his Father (John 2:16).
In all these cases it was very clear that system of worship had been corrupted.
Jesus told his followers to do as they say but not to do as they show.

For our time the same is happening. There must be a people for Jehovah's name in our time otherwise the prophecies wouldn't have any meaning if there is no house of God to be cleaned/inspected.
I'm convinced that JW's were/are Gods people. Since they have the name JW's can bring reproach on God's name. And this is foretold it would happen.
Jesus mentioned that there would be a slave appointed and according to Jesus there would be a slave which is really corrupt and becomes apostate, but there is also a slave who is not like that, but still is negligent and will still receive strokes (Luke 12). So whatever is happening with the GB, it's part of prophecy.
So with this, I don't feel it's up to me to leave Gods people. As long as Jesus has not come to inspect and clean, I'm going to stay as close as possible without compromising.
 
I do believe the same thing. Every time there was a people for Jehovah they strayed away. This happened with old Israel and later during Jesus time.
The Bible is very clear this will happen with Jehovah's people in the time of the end as well.
During the time of old Israel even during times of strong corruption there were still faithful people in Israel.
Think about the time of Elijah. in 1 King 19:18 Jehovah told him that there were still 7000 who didn't who didn't bend down to Baal.
When Jerusalem was destroyed withing the captives, there were faithful men as well if we think about Daniel and his companions.
In Jesus time he condemned the religious leaders and cleaned the temple calling it the house of his Father (John 2:16).
In all these cases it was very clear that system of worship had been corrupted.
Jesus told his followers to do as they say but not to do as they show.

For our time the same is happening. There must be a people for Jehovah's name in our time otherwise the prophecies wouldn't have any meaning if there is no house of God to be cleaned/inspected.
I'm convinced that JW's were/are Gods people. Since they have the name JW's can bring reproach on God's name. And this is foretold it would happen.
Jesus mentioned that there would be a slave appointed and according to Jesus there would be a slave which is really corrupt and becomes apostate, but there is also a slave who is not like that, but still is negligent and will still receive strokes (Luke 12). So whatever is happening with the GB, it's part of prophecy.
So with this, I don't feel it's up to me to leave Gods people. As long as Jesus has not come to inspect and clean, I'm going to stay as close as possible without compromising.
Here’s an excellent article IMO that‘s worth considering. They refer to many WT publications. The webpage also explains with logical reasoning the difference between organization using an organization on earth to represent Jehovah and Jesus.

Here below is an excerpt from the article referred to:

“As the word "organization" does not appear in the Bible, the Watchtower uses 1 Corinthians14:33 - "God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace" - to indicate that an Organization is necessary. In similar vein, Watchtower 1981 May 1 p.30 claims Jehovah indicates he needs an organization because wants "an arrangement of things."

It is a big leap to insist descriptions of God as orderly and arranged proves he needs an human organization to represent him.

The existence of an organization does not guarantee order, nor is an organization a prerequisite for orderliness. This does not mean that organization is not necessary. People need to be organised for efficient operation of congregations and preaching. Rather, it is unquestioning allegiance to the leaders of an Organization that is not supported Scripturally.

Early Christians were organized into congregations, as are Christian religions today. For the spread of Christianity it has been necessary to create organizations. For example, in modern times religious groups often need to establish legal entities or organizations in order to purchase halls to meet in and for the publication of literature.”

 
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Here’s an excellent article IMO that‘s worth considering. They refer to many WT publications. The webpage also explains with logical reasoning the difference between organization using an organization on earth to represent Jehovah and Jesus.

Here below is an excerpt from the article referred to:

“As the word "organization" does not appear in the Bible, the Watchtower uses 1 Corinthians14:33 - "God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace" - to indicate that an Organization is necessary. In similar vein, Watchtower 1981 May 1 p.30 claims Jehovah indicates he needs an organization because wants "an arrangement of things."

It is a big leap to insist descriptions of God as orderly and arranged proves he needs an human organization to represent him.

The existence of an organization does not guarantee order, nor is an organization a prerequisite for orderliness. This does not mean that organization is not necessary. People need to be organised for efficient operation of congregations and preaching. Rather, it is unquestioning allegiance to the leaders of an Organization that is not supported Scripturally.

Early Christians were organised into congregations, as are Christian religions today. For the spread of Christianity it has been necessary to create organizations. For example, in modern times religious groups often need to establish legal entities or organizations in order to purchase halls to meet in and for the publication of literature.”


Correct, there were congregations in the early Christian times. But if you read the account in Acts regarding circumcision you can see they were 'organized' in the sense that the apostles and elders gave some instructions.
You can also see that Paul is writing letters to congregations.

You mentioned that today Christian religions are also grouped into congregations. True, but if you go to each of these congregations they all teach different things which are not in line with the Bible.
Jesus made it clear there would be a slave assigned to provide food at the proper time. So this alone already gives the idea there would need to be some structure or organizing to accomplish this.
1 Peter 3:8 mentions: all of you have unity of mind. So if you compare the situation with 'Christian' congregations in the world with all their different ideas and compare them to JW's worldwide, there is a big difference.
I'm not saying I agree with how the GB took the position and said that they alone are the FDS, but they did a good job uniting JW's worldwide.
At least if I go to a congregation somewhere in an asian country, I will know for sure that they will be teaching the same Bible principles as basic truth.
Without any organization, how would this have been possible?

During the course of history you can see that Jehovah has mostly used people. Think about Moses, the time of the judges, the time of the kings and the temple arrangement....
Why would there be no organization in our time?
I don't see how the different 'Christian' religious congregations in the world could ever be called God's people if most of them don't even know Jehovah's name.
 
So, if an organization gets up on the podium and says, "unity is more important than truth"...
The core biblical truths are correct and as far as I know JW's are the only ones to have the core beliefs correct and be united in that.
Our salvation is depending on our belief in these.
John 17:3 - This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

Just as the pharisees in Jesus time, the GB is going too far but that needs to happen according to the Bible.
It's just proof that all is matching the Biblical account and the MOL account. If the organization was without fault and doing fully God's will than the whole part about the MOL would be of no use. No cleaning would be needed.

But all that Jesus foretold about the weeds, bad slave, virgins....it all points to the fact that their would be a people for Gods name and they would become corrupted. So that's just proof to me that all is happening as expected.
 
The existence of an organization does not guarantee order, nor is an organization a prerequisite for orderliness. This does not mean that organization is not necessary. People need to be organised for efficient operation of congregations and preaching. Rather, it is unquestioning allegiance to the leaders of an Organization that is not supported Scripturally.
@Ms_ladyblue, your statement is a good summation of the posture many have today. Just because you're "in", doesn't mean you are aligned, following and promoting everything being taught. As a truth-seeker, it is our responsibility to verify & confirm if what is shared is truth. Unfortunately, only a minority of people actually do. Adding to Ms_ladyblue's comment highlighted above, our allegiance is to Jehovah and his son, Jesus, not imperfect men. Don't think even the GB could semantically argue this statement as being an incorrect view to whom deserves our loyalty (Joshua 14:15b).
 
@Watchman and others have affirmed that Jehovah has an org and it's the JW's. This being mainly becasue orthodox WT doctrine is scripturally sound. Now, there is the point of the 'evil slave & apostasy arising' within the Jah's org (as happened with Israelites) and 'Christ judging the organization' at some point which would trigger significant confusion within the org (see @Watchman's post here). Nonetheless, being that Jah does have an organization, the question is, why leave? If you leave Jah's organization, aren't you saying, you don't believe that he is directing his people through the org? I am trying to comprehend the aspect that yes, he has an organization, with imperfect/fallible members, but it's still under Jah & Jesus's direction; consequently, wouldn't leaving deny this assertion?

Now, I understand and appreciate having a platform that exposes certain wrongdoings, criticism or inconsistencies, etc. (this forum); however, it would seem that @Watchman's confirmation that JW's are in Jah's organization would support why there are PIMO & PIMI's and why it's better to stay-in then leave. :unsure:
I don't urge JWs to leave. However, the WT has not presented a truthful picture of God's purpose. Take the illustration of the sheep and the goats. The Watchtower claims that the sheep are supporting Christ's brothers now by being involved in the preaching work. But that simply cannot be true. It is true that anointed Christians especially have to declare the excellencies of Jehovah and like Peter said we are required to be active and fruitful. Nevertheless, the parable of the sheep and the goats has to do with the second coming of Christ. Then a new reality will emerge. And the WT will not be part of it.
 
Is that a real quote from a GB member or WT article or an interpretation or personal conclusion? Don't recall those exact words ever being said from the "org".
It is not explicitly stated by the GB but it is always implied. But, the WT's lawyer back in the 50s actually testified in court that unity is more important than truth. Click here and scroll down to an intended box with questions and answers. It is taken from the court transcript.
 
I don't urge JWs to leave. However, the WT has not presented a truthful picture of God's purpose. Take the illustration of the sheep and the goats. The Watchtower claims that the sheep are supporting Christ's brothers now by being involved in the preaching work. But that simply cannot be true. It is true that anointed Christians especially have to declare the excellencies of Jehovah and like Peter said we are required to be active and fruitful. Nevertheless, the parable of the sheep and the goats has to do with the second coming of Christ. Then a new reality will emerge. And the WT will not be part of it.
It appears that you are alluding to something I hadn't considered. If one's understanding and conviction of bible teachings is not aligned with WT non-orthodox doctrines, it is likely that one would not be able remain in the org. Example would be the parable of the sheep and goats you've shared. Since this understanding, if shared inside the org, would result in disagreements (putting it nicely), one would face exclusion and removal from the org; consequently, it would be a leaving by force and not by choice.
 
It appears that you are alluding to something I hadn't considered. If one's understanding and conviction of bible teachings is not aligned with WT non-orthodox doctrines, it is likely that one would not be able remain in the org. Example would be the parable of the sheep and goats you've shared. Since this understanding, if shared inside the org, would result in disagreements (putting it nicely), one would face exclusion and removal from the org; consequently, it would be a leaving by force and not by choice.
I don’t think Robert argues to leave the organisation, mainly, stay but when you see the disgusting thing, then it’s time to leave. I think being viligant is crucial at the moment, especially with what’s happening in the world.
 
You mentioned that today Christian religions are also grouped into congregations. True, but if you go to each of these congregations they all teach different things which are not in line with the Bible.
Jesus made it clear there would be a slave assigned to provide food at the proper time. So this alone already gives the idea there would need to be some structure or organizing to accomplish this.
1 Peter 3:8 mentions: all of you have unity of mind. So if you compare the situation with 'Christian' congregations in the world with all their different ideas and compare them to JW's worldwide, there is a big difference.
Yes, Christian religions are grouped into congregations, which was stated in the article but I wasn’t trying to compare Christendom’s different churches and their unscriptural teachings with true Christian congregations whose teachings are in harmony with the Bible.
I’ve been one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for close to 40 years…I think I realize that different churches have various teachings that are false and do not harmonize with the Bible.

Early Christians were organised into congregations, as are Christian religions today. For the spread of Christianity it has been necessary to create organizations. For example, in modern times religious groups often need to establish legal entities or organizations in order to purchase halls to meet in and for the publication of literature.”
When it does come to “organization“ and having “an organization.” there’s a difference. For example, this part of the article as I believe you mainly are referring to here was only stating that Christians ( be they true Christians or not) did organize into groups for the stated reasons given even though they weren’t teaching the truth, but this paragraph wasn’t referring to the belief systems within those congregations.
The point is, yes, we need organization in the many different congregations of Jehovah’s people but not a man made organization and that’s what it has evolved into now. They’ve abused their authority even though God has used them to help with getting the good news of God’s Kingdom preached and taught us the basic truths of the Bible. In addition, they have unified God’s people worldwide, there’s no denying that. But as Robert has pointed out in many of his commentaries, the WT has served their purpose. Also, the fact that the time has not yet come for the FDS to be appointed.

Jesus told his followers, and that includes us:
“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Jesus said that he would be with us...and so,there were those who brought us the truth of God’s word and we benefited from that as long as they didn’t go “beyond the things written.” And now they are proving to be the MOL.
All I’m trying to say is even though Jehovah has used this organization to achieve his purpose we shouldn’t rely on or put so much trust in them as so many are now doing. Jehovah did not intend for his organization to become “masters over our faith.“
2 Cor. 1:24 says:

“Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.”
1 Peter 5:2,3

“ Shepherd the flock of God under your care, serving as overseers, not under compulsion, but willingly before God; not for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; not lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock.”


We can plainly see, those men who were organized and gave instructions… instructions in line with what Jehovah and Jesus would require. But those shepherds were also to be “examples to the flock.”
For quite some time now, the GB have went “beyond the things written“ with all their added rules.

Since humans are inclined to want to have authority in some way over people, while others are inclined to ‘follow men’ just as we see happening in the organization today. So it seems many have and are going to fall victim to their abuses because of being followers of men. Jehovah clearly says at:

Psalm 146:3 “Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.”

This means do not put your trust in any man. The FDS slave have compelled many to put their full trust in ‘those men‘ because for years now they’ve stressed that they are God’s representatives on earth…for example, the WT study article this past Sunday.
This no doubt makes the R&F think, not trusting in them is equivalent to not trusting in Jehovah.

“Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. But there is nothing carefully concealed that will not be revealed, and nothing secret that will not become known.”

The GB/WT has clearly become more like the Sadducees and Pharisees. Therefore Jesus warned to “watch out for the leaven…which is hypocrisy.”

These are some and there are many more clear instructions and warnings that were given by Jehovah and Jesus to help guide us through this ‘storm’ we are experiencing and the wonderful thing is that if we follow their counsel and warnings given we can be sure not to be caught off guard in the end.
1 Peter 3:8 mentions: all of you have unity of mind. So if you compare the situation with 'Christian' congregations in the world with all their different ideas and compare them to JW's worldwide, there is a big difference.
I'm not saying I agree with how the GB took the position and said that they alone are the FDS, but they did a good job uniting JW's worldwide.
At least if I go to a congregation somewhere in an asian country, I will know for sure that they will be teaching the same Bible principles as basic truth.
Unity of mind is important as long as the unity is in line with Jehovah’s thinking and Jesus’ example. As I said earlier, yes I believe Jehovah did use this organization to achieve his purpose until they no longer serve that purpose. But let us not forget that ultimately it was Jesus, who said he would be with his followers to the end…and Jehovah, behind preaching the message of the Kingdom worldwide. Without them it wouldn’t have been possible.

And also be mindful that unity can also be used for a bad purpose. Just look at the world right now how they’re all unified in this agenda that’s taking place since March 2020.…and the WT is right in line with the governments of this world. Something tells me that any instructions they give as we get closer to the end won’t be coming from Jehovah but will come from the UN, governments of this world. So if those who are going to put their trust in WT continue to do so where do you think this will lead them?
During the course of history you can see that Jehovah has mostly used people. Think about Moses, the time of the judges, the time of the kings and the temple arrangement....
Why would there be no organization in our time?
I don't see how the different 'Christian' religious congregations in the world could ever be called God's people if most of them don't even know Jehovah's name.
Yes, @barry you are definitely correct but I believe we are well past this point of knowing how all of this has happened and did happen. And even Moses, although one who Jehovah used back then…he had to be corrected because he gave himself credit for something Jehovah had done. As a result, he wasn’t allowed to lead the Israelites into the Promised land.

Bottom line is we have to get out of our head that following WT‘s lead is somehow the same as following Jesus and Jehovah.

Exodus 34:14 :

“You must not bow down to another god, for Jehovah is known for requiring exclusive devotion. Yes, he is a God who requires exclusive devotion.”

*Footnote for “exclusive devotion“ “Not tolerating rivals.”
 
Is that a real quote from a GB member or WT article or an interpretation or personal conclusion? Don't recall those exact words ever being said from the "org".
That’s very true @Sundial. I’ve never heard that either in all the years I’ve been associated with the organization. But then they have been saying a lot of things we’ve never before heard. 😮
 
That’s very true @Sundial. I’ve never heard that either in all the years I’ve been associated with the organization. But then they have been saying a lot of things we’ve never before heard. 😮
@Watchman came to my aid with an explanation a little farther up this thread. There was also a quick snippet by Bro. Losch several months back where he couched this sentiment in a sentence that made several of us uncomfortable. It was mentioned on the site, but I can't tell you exactly where on this site that thread was now.
 
@Watchman came to my aid with an explanation a little farther up this thread. There was also a quick snippet by Bro. Losch several months back where he couched this sentiment in a sentence that made several of us uncomfortable. It was mentioned on the site, but I can't tell you exactly where on this site that thread was now.
Remember too, that the fear of disunity became paramount because of the divisions emerging within the ranks from the vaccine mandates. One can only guess how many desperate letters were sent or how many Bethelites were affected or as the case may be, disaffected by their stubborn stand. Expect more in the near future 😒
 
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