I want to tell you all an experience . . .

BillyRay

Well-known member
I guess it affected everyone differently. I’m amazed that being in all those years you didn’t hear about it.

Now, I wasn’t “raised in the truth” as my previously posted background has mentioned. But when I started studying in the mid 1980’s, the brothers I hung out with - including my FIL - were pretty open about the 1975 thing. As I’ve mentioned previously in another thread, one of the brothers in our group had sold all his cows. In fact, when together, they were sort of light hearted about it if the topic came up. I remember them saying things like “they got it wrong but it’ll be here soon enough”. I was studying at the time, so knew very little. But they didn’t hide it or make excuses. They explained it to me like: “where else are we going to go? We know it’s the truth. The brothers just got it wrong. We were all hoping for it. But now, we move on.” And they did.

That’s not told in any way to diminish your experience. But the roughly 15-20 brothers I knew/know (some have passed) who went through it came out the other side and kept at it.
 

יהוה_saves

Well-known member
I guess it affected everyone differently. I’m amazed that being in all those years you didn’t hear about it.

Now, I wasn’t “raised in the truth” as my previously posted background has mentioned. But when I started studying in the mid 1980’s, the brothers I hung out with - including my FIL - were pretty open about the 1975 thing. As I’ve mentioned previously in another thread, one of the brothers in our group had sold all his cows. In fact, when together, they were sort of light hearted about it if the topic came up. I remember them saying things like “they got it wrong but it’ll be here soon enough”. I was studying at the time, so knew very little. But they didn’t hide it or make excuses. They explained it to me like: “where else are we going to go? We know it’s the truth. The brothers just got it wrong. We were all hoping for it. But now, we move on.” And they did.

That’s not told in any way to diminish your experience. But the roughly 15-20 brothers I knew/know (some have passed) who went through it came out the other side and kept at it.
a saying emerged from Watergate that went something like this- it’s not the crime, it’s the cover up. A few brothers being open about 1975 wasn’t or doesn’t impact me one way or another- i do admire their ability to “keep at it”. For some or perhaps many, what choice did they have?

For me it amounted to institutional coverup by those at the top. I would have had much more respect had Watchtower been open about its failed predictions, and yes perhaps i would have held back from baptism, but i was not given the chance to consider it. It wasn’t the missed prophecies per se that caused me to lose whatever remaining respect i had for the org. it was the cover up and the blame shifting. But again, i understand people have their own perspective on 1975. I was recruited into Watchtower in 1994 - perhaps long enough from the event for it to have faded from memory. In the early days of my baptism, there was no way for me to search these things out, reallly- i mean i had a few bound volumes but no leads and speaking to those who left was verboten. Perhaps there was a passing reference to “some brothers” being “over eager” about “some things” in the Proclaimers book, that i missed. But this event in Watchtower history left me reeling, to be perfectly honest.
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
Man…. Put the axe and your grinder away.

The BK story is just human nature on display. In fact…. It’s nature period. Feed a stray cat or dog a couple days in a row. See what happens.

Human beings love free stuff and discounts. Brother said there was a “Pioneer Discount”. He didn’t put a limit on it - like: “Today only…. Pioneer Discount!” Sisters took him literally. I’d probably color them dense before I thought they were taking advantage.

I would have just done the adult thing and talked with them about it - telling them that it was a special treat and you can’t extend it every day. I’m sure they would have understood. It’s as much on the Brother as it is on them.

“Company Personnel”??? C’mon. Talk about painting with a broad brush!
I tend to look at it like you BR. People are people, Brothers or not. I'm not aware of having taken advantage of anyone financially in my life but when I was younger...who knows. I have been taken advantage of by various Brothers financially though. It's no big deal. When it comes to money and survival you've got to give some slack. I really feel sorry for people that have to steal to survive. Life can be that tough.

But as Kim said, taking advantage of someone and then not even acknowledging that they helped you is really bad form. I've had that happen to me as well and it's a tougher pill to swallow.

Using your example of stray dogs and cats, it's like feeding them, they get used to it, come around for more, but then they decide to come by just to bite you on the butt really hard. Of course, a dog or cat would never do this...well, maybe a cat...:) Being sentient beings, more is expected of us. This is worse than simply taking advantage of someone financially. It's taking advantage of someone and then smacking them in the face for the heck of it.
 

יהוה_saves

Well-known member
But as Kim said, taking advantage of someone and then not even acknowledging that they helped you is really bad form. I've had that happen to me as well and it's a tougher pill to swallow.
Thank you kirmmy- again we agree.

and to be perfectly clear, i don’t blame the brother. it’s Watchtower™️ that sets up this type of deception according to its outlines for assemblies and conventions. At the time i was pretty speechless as i was sitting in my chair watching and listening, but looking back, the brother was simply going along with a system that doesn’t necessarily prioritize reality. What really burned me though was that i had to suffer in silence for years when my husband would complain about the way he felt- he felt he was being taken advantage of by JWs who wanted that brother discount, some tried recruiting him into the org, but really they had no other genuine interest in my husband as a person. He just didn’t have it in him to run them off.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
a saying emerged from Watergate that went something like this- it’s not the crime, it’s the cover up. A few brothers being open about 1975 wasn’t or doesn’t impact me one way or another- i do admire their ability to “keep at it”. For some or perhaps many, what choice did they have?

For me it amounted to institutional coverup by those at the top. I would have had much more respect had Watchtower been open about its failed predictions, and yes perhaps i would have held back from baptism, but i was not given the chance to consider it. It wasn’t the missed prophecies per se that caused me to lose whatever remaining respect i had for the org. it was the cover up and the blame shifting. But again, i understand people have their own perspective on 1975. I was recruited into Watchtower in 1994 - perhaps long enough from the event for it to have faded from memory. In the early days of my baptism, there was no way for me to search these things out, reallly- i mean i had a few bound volumes but no leads and speaking to those who left was verboten. Perhaps there was a passing reference to “some brothers” being “over eager” about “some things” in the Proclaimers book, that i missed. But this event in Watchtower history left me reeling, to be perfectly honest.
Dear Sister Asadour, I agree completely. And, we must acknowledge that JWs teach others to not be liars. The bible condemns liars, but what we teach others is not only, do not lie, but do not deceive, which includes lying and more. I cannot recall the exact Watchtower study but the gist of what we have studied and taught is that even if what we say is technically true but it is presented in such a manner as to deceive or leave important information out, then that is the same as lying. Honestly, I feel the dear sister who studied with me, explained 1975 in a way that was deceiving. And, I love her dearly and I am not in any way trying to malign her or negate all the help she gave me. The honest truth is that what happened in 1975 was misrepresented by saying some were “over eager”. Just that phrase is exactly what I was told and then it was very effectively hushed up. In my viewpoint to do that shows a lack of trust in Jehovah and his ability to ”make it grow”. We must be honest with each other, even when it’s tough to do.
 

BillyRay

Well-known member
a saying emerged from Watergate that went something like this- it’s not the crime, it’s the cover up. A few brothers being open about 1975 wasn’t or doesn’t impact me one way or another- i do admire their ability to “keep at it”. For some or perhaps many, what choice did they have?

For me it amounted to institutional coverup by those at the top. I would have had much more respect had Watchtower been open about its failed predictions, and yes perhaps i would have held back from baptism, but i was not given the chance to consider it. It wasn’t the missed prophecies per se that caused me to lose whatever remaining respect i had for the org. it was the cover up and the blame shifting. But again, i understand people have their own perspective on 1975. I was recruited into Watchtower in 1994 - perhaps long enough from the event for it to have faded from memory. In the early days of my baptism, there was no way for me to search these things out, reallly- i mean i had a few bound volumes but no leads and speaking to those who left was verboten. Perhaps there was a passing reference to “some brothers” being “over eager” about “some things” in the Proclaimers book, that i missed. But this event in Watchtower history left me reeling, to be perfectly honest.
Asadour…. The circumstances surrounding 1975 were obviously profound to you. I’m won’t diminish your feelings about that at all. Those are deeply personal. All I can do is tell you about what I’v heard from the people I spoke to, who were there. As well as maybe sharing a few thoughts - for whatever those might be worth.

Of the reactions that I’ve seen and heard - shared by hundreds of people I’ve known who lived through it….. Was there disappointment? Of course. But for the people I’ve met, their choice was to continue serving Jehovah.

Now, to be fair, I wouldn’t have come across anyone who had left the organization because of 1975 - as they would have already been gone before I arrived. But I don’t recall any mention from the people I know/knew, of people leaving. That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. It means that I don’t recall it, or they never shared it with me.

The year books show that in 1975 there were about 2,000,000 publishers. In 1977 and 1978 there was a decrease of about 52,000 publishers total. We can definitely conclude that some people were stumbled and left.

Now, if we view the F&DS as fallible men, whose every thought and word does not come directly from Jehovah…. But rather, they pray to Jehovah for guidance asking for help in making sound decisions, while applying Bible principles…. That does leave the door open for mistakes to be made. If this is the case, then the 1975 debacle isn’t as unexpected as we might have thought. Imperfect, eager men, getting out ahead of themselves.

On the other hand, if we view the F&DS as being directly guided by Jehovah - in every possible way - and they still went forward with declaring 1975 being the end…. Then they did it on purpose.

Those are the only two possibilities that I see as the cause of declaring the end in 1975. I guess it comes down to what you believe. Of those two possibilities back in 1975, the first description is the most plausible to me. Although, If this happened today, I might not answer that way, given what we’re seeing from the GB at this moment.

Today, there are nearly 8.7 million publishers - quite the increase over 1975 numbers of just over 2 million. Selfishly, I for one am glad that 1975 wasn’t the end, as I would have never come to know Jehovah.

As for cover up and blame shifting, I can see how you’d see it that way. It certainly wasn’t handled with “fall on your sword” aplomb that it probably should have been handled. Here is what was written n the March 15, 1980 Watchtower:
5 In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting – In the Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.

6 In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: “If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” In saying “anyone,” The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date.
We can put this under a microscope and nit-pick and look for hidden meaning, of course. But the last sentence summed it up for me.

If we viewed the F&DS as fallible human men, then how many of us want to admit or relive our own mistakes? We’re embarrassed by them. Sometimes ashamed. We acknowledge them and move on. It’s human nature not to keep bringing up our failures. The documented arguments behind the scenes back then, as to what should be said or written, clearly demonstrates this.

Many people choose to leave the organization on their own. Those decisions are personal. There are many reasons as to why people leave. You came into the organization - determined through all your study, gaining knowledge of who God is, what he has done for us, what his purpose is, what is required of us, and more. You progressed to baptism, you pioneered, you served year in and year out for many years. I’m can tell that you’re very smart, and have a great deal of knowledge. But yet, were stumbled to leave the organization by something that happened many years before you’d ever come to know who Jehovah’s Witnesses were.

As I said, people leave for their own reasons. However, I don’t need to know what your reason is. That’s personal. But for some reason, I can’t help but sensing that there’s more to your leaving than 1975. I certainly could be wrong though. As always, it’s great speaking with you here.

CORRECTION: Our sister Asadour had said previously that she found out about 1975 AFTER she left. Therefore, my last paragraphs mentioning that she left due to 1975 was incorrect. I’d rather leave it as posted and correct it, than erasing it. BR
 
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יהוה_saves

Well-known member
CORRECTION: Our sister Asadour had said previously that she found out about 1975 AFTER she left. Therefore, my last paragraphs mentioning that she left due to 1975 was incorrect. I’d rather leave it as posted and correct it, than erasing it. BR
would you like to know why i left the org? id be interested in your feedback.
 
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יהוה_saves

Well-known member
Yes I've read both his books.
what did you think of Ray Franz’s second book? I haven’t read it. I’m wondering if i should take the time to read it. Did you like it?

I read Leaving The Witness which I didn’t really find very edifying or interesting, i read Doomsday Deception: The Rise and Fall Of Watchtower which was very well researched and I must say, a great read, and of course Crisis of Conscience, which is when/how i learned of the events leading up to 1975.

I thought about reading Lloyd Evans’s The Reluctant Apostate, but the more i hear what is trickling out about Lloyd, the further i want to distance myself from anything having to do with him. I appeared on his show and now i regret that. Something’s not right with that man. I can’t prove it but i think, i mean i believe that his viewers (subs) and patreons have been played. bigly.
 
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kirmmy

Well-known member
would you like to know why i left the org? id be interested in your feedback.
You could refer Billy to your video with Lloyd Evans. I found it interesting and you laid it out very well. I'd put a link but I don't want to step on your toes.
 

יהוה_saves

Well-known member
You could refer Billy to your video with Lloyd Evans. I found it interesting and you laid it out very well. I'd put a link but I don't want to step on your toes.
I appreciate that a lot.

TBH, i wasn’t able to really get into detail in my LE vid, I wasn’t prepared and Lloyd had no script or outline- the whole thing was done on the fly.

Owing to Youtube’s policy, I didn’t believe i had freedom to speak my mind with regard to Watchtower’s Covid protocol and its unwavering position on the 💉, also because Evans is pro-vax, he supports draconian govt policy and oppressive corporate monopolies, this further limited my ability to express myself. That interview was mostly about what drew me to the organization and why i wanted to remain in it.

I wish i could get it deleted somehow because I regret doing it. Now there are rumors swirling that Evans is/was a Watchtower plant and that he was made a “fall guy” in order to ferret out PIMO Bethel leakers.

I realize some perhaps many will find that idea far fetched, but nothing surprises me anymore. shocks? yes. but surprises? no. For now i operate on the assumption that it could be true until more information come out.

Also, i gave that interview while in my near atheist phase. This was before i found e-watchman and i was having serious doubts about Jehovah and his word because i was filling my head with Mythvision content on a daily basis.

Anyway, time will bear it out, but surely there are some crazy things going on in the back rooms of the Tuxedo Park Headquarters. My aim isn’t to focus on these things too much as they’re distracting to real issues.
 
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kirmmy

Well-known member
Owing to Youtube’s policy, I didn’t believe i had freedom to speak my mind with regard to Watchtower’s Covid protocol
You would have been screened, you're right.

Evans is pro-vax, he supports draconian govt policy and oppressive corporate monopolies
I noticed that. He's a bit crazy there. I guess he's born to slavery. He actually praised the WT for shutting down the meetings and preaching.

Now there are rumors swirling that Evans is/was a Watchtower plant and that he was made a “fall guy” in order to ferret out PIMO Bethel leakers.
Yikes! You think so? Possible but a lot of trouble to go through. He surely seems to be an avowed atheist now. If he's working for them, he's getting paid well.

Also, i gave that interview while in my near atheist phase.
I noticed that. Jah snatched you from the fire.

Don't worry, now that I know how you feel about the interview I won't bring it up again.
 
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יהוה_saves

Well-known member
You would have been screened, you're right.


I noticed that. He's a bit crazy there. I guess he's born to slavery. He actually praised the WT for shutting down the meetings and preaching.


Yikes! You think so? Possible but a lot of trouble to go through. He surely seems to be an avowed atheist now. If he's working for them, he's getting paid well.


I noticed that. Jah snatched you from the fire.

Don't worry, now that I know how you feel about the interview I won't bring it up again.
oh yes Jah def snatched me from
the fire. i wrote that exact phrase in my open letter to Robert on the old forum. That’s exactly how i feel. I was so close to giving up. i am
so incredibly grateful to have found this website and all you wonderful people belonging to Jehovah. Leaving Watchtower was really, really traumatic. I have PTSD from it and am in cult recovery therapy to cope with some of the daily anxiety. but it’s getting better a little bit every day. :))))
 

jay

Well-known member
so many pioneer elders brought they service cars to our repair shop for maintenance. They would give my husband magazines and my husband would take them and then bring them home to me. he never read them. I would try to explain that to the elders in informal conversation but they took it as i was interfering in a man’s affairs and i should butt out. my marriage really suffered because of this. I finally requested a formal meeting with the elders to tell them to please tell everyone to stop bringing their service vehicles to our shop for maintenance OR just pay the damn bill!!!! stop asking for a discount. - i had the meeting and i informed them how things were and how i felt, and I was basically treated like a pariah so i backed off.
Kim, My parents owned a Dry Cleaners. Can you imagine how popular it was back in the 60 and 70 with all of the local congregations and the CO's?
 

יהוה_saves

Well-known member
Kim, My parents owned a Dry Cleaners. Can you imagine how popular it was back in the 60 and 70 with all of the local congregations and the CO's?
i can imagine Jay. Popular, with lots of expectations attached no doubt.

I knew a JW couple that owned a little market in downtown Portland- it was like a little gourmet food market. I wondered to myself how they would have felt had i grabbed a couple bottles of wine and some exotic cheese and said- thanks brother! i’ll pay you when i get my tax refund. i can’t tell you how many times i heard that line- pay you when i get my tax refund. Then just drove off with their cars all fixed and nice. one guy tried to pay with a fifth of scotch. My husband accepted it and we drank it that same night with my worldly cousins and we all got into a huge to a drunken fight- i’m surprised nobody called the police. sigh. memoriez.
 

יהוה_saves

Well-known member
The honest truth is that what happened in 1975 was misrepresented by saying some were “over eager”.
yep Driven that was the talking point, wasn’t it. Throw the blame on “some brothers” living out in Iowa somewhere that were over eager at a convention one time. Nope- it was the Governing Body that promoted 1975, 100%, full stop, and what’s worse Driven, if you didn’t jump on the 1975 bandwagon you were viewed as a spiritual slug.
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
One guy tried to pay with a fifth of scotch.
That reminded me of a story. I went to school and got my Computer Systems Tech diploma many years ago. I worked as a contractor in the field but TBH, it paid poorly and I sure didn't feel the love.

Anyway, I had a friend, an elder, who was in the same field but he had more experience and a really good job with the government. Let's call him Dorkly. We both had a friend in common, let's call him Bob, who knew nothing about computers. Bob was bugging Dorkly to fix his computer. Dorkly was too busy so he "kindly" pawned Bob off on me. I took Bob's computer home and, after some investigation, found out his hard drive was toast. I delivered the bad news. He asked what he could do. I told him he needed to buy a hard drive and someone to reinstall Windows on it. I also informed him that, if he wanted his data back, someone would have to try and get it off his burnt drive, if possible.

Well he ended up calling on me to do all the above. What a privilege! /s He supplied a new hard drive and I spent hours installing it and reinstalling Windows on his computer. I then tried to get his data off the old drive but it was gone. I spent a fair bit of time on this and used every tool in my arsenal. I told him he could send it in to a data recovery company and they might be able to get some back. He declined that. Probably because it would have cost lots of cash...

So after spending several hours sorting out Bob's computer and trying to recover his data he comes over to get it. He proudly, I kid you not, PROUDLY hands me a six pack of beer and tells me I earned it. A six pack of beer!!!! He couldn't even make it a case!!!!

I choked, stumbled and mumbled "Thanks...I guess".

And that was it for Dorkly and Bob. Done like dinner. Fortunately though they never asked me for anything again.

BTW, the reason I named the one Brother Dorkly was because he was a real arrogant jackass. He loved himself and no one else and couldn't give a fig about anyone but himself. But such are many elders in the org, right?

So yeah, I've got a pretty good idea what your husband went through with the "Brothers". :)
 
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